Intro

[00:00:01] Spencer: How can outside enterprises and issues derail our recovery? What do Al-Anon's traditions say about this?

[00:00:08] Welcome to episode four hundred sixty three of The Recovery Show. This episode is brought to you by Cheryl and Brian. They used the donation button on our website. Thank you, Cheryl and Brian, for your generous contributions. This episode is for you.

[00:00:23] We are friends and family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:41] Stephanie: Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show, we represent ourselves rather than any 12-step program. During this show, we will share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you will find something in our sharing that speaks to your life

[00:01:02] Spencer: My name is Spencer. I am your host today, and joining me today is Stephanie. welcome to the Recovery Show, Stephanie

[00:01:09] Stephanie: Thank you

Tradition 6

[00:01:10] Spencer: Today we'll be reading from the book How Al-Anon Works. We're reading the section on Tradition Six, which is on pages one fifteen to one sixteen, in chapter sixteen, which is titled The Twelve Traditions. I will start by reading the tradition itself, which says, “Our family groups ought never endorse, finance, or lend our name to any outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary spiritual aim. Although a separate entity, we should always cooperate with Alcoholics Anonymous.”

[00:01:46] Our first paragraph says, “As private individuals, we are welcome to involve ourselves with any endeavor that interests us. There are many worthwhile causes that deserve our time and attention. Sometimes we are presented with opportunities for personal, material, political, or social gain that are too good to pass up. But as an Al-Anon group, we must avoid such involvement at all costs. Al-Anon's primary spiritual aim, helping families and friends of alcoholics, would be compromised should we affiliate ourselves in any way with even the most worthy outside causes, activities, or organizations.”

[00:02:25] What do you hear from this first paragraph? What do you understand?

[00:02:31] Stephanie: I think the word that stands out to me is compromised.That the integrity of the group and, possibly the program as well could be compromised if we,affiliated ourselves in any way. Regardless of how valuable that affiliation might be.

[00:02:52] Spencer: In the early days of Alcoholics Anonymous, which is where we adapted our 12 traditions from theirs, there were ideas about opening treatment centers, affiliating with hospitals for treatment of alcoholism, and they decided that while those were valuable things to do, if they did that, it would… I think the word here says dilute, the message that they were trying to bring, and it would distract them from this primary spiritual aim of helping alcoholics find recovery. In Al-Anon, we're helping others who are affiliated with an alcoholic find recovery.

[00:03:34] One example that has come up for friends of mine in the program, many of the meetings in my area are held in churches. Friends who are not affiliated with that particular church, or in some cases any church at all, might worry, and did worry, that they were also going to get the church message along with the Al-Anon message.

[00:04:00] This tradition helps us understand and recognize that we need to keep those things separate. That we're here for one purpose, and that if somebody wants to hear the message from the church, it's gonna be available, you know?

[00:04:16] Stephanie: It was always available, whether the group met at that particular venue or not. I think this tradition just makes it real clear and real simple about what our, what our primary purpose is and how to stay focused on that.

[00:04:35] Spencer: Yeah. And the second paragraph, I think, enlarges on that a little bit. Could you read?

[00:04:40] Stephanie: “This tradition, however, should never be interpreted as an attempt to hold us back from providing the comfort and aid we exist to offer, or from carrying the Al-Anon message to those who need it. Activities such as sponsoring an Alateen function or making Al-Anon literature available to the public are appropriate because they support our primary purpose. Instead, the sixth tradition urges us to avoid activities or relationships that are potentially harmful, involvements that could interfere with our ability to help families and friends of alcoholics.”

[00:05:17] Spencer: Yeah. That says ” here are some things that actually it is appropriate for us as an Al-Anon group or as the Al-Anon organization to do.” I remember, there was a community event happening in a nearby town. It was celebrating the history of the town, and there were a bunch of community organizations that had booths there.

[00:05:37] And, Al-Anons in the area actually in cooperation with AAs, staffed one of those booths with Al-Anon and AA literature for people who maybe didn't know we were there and were interested, or maybe had heard of Al-Anon or AA but really didn't know much about it and were curious.

[00:05:57] And that, according to this, is an entirely appropriate thing to do. We're using some of our money and our time and our energy to support the program of Al-Anon as a whole.If I, however, representing myself as a member of Al-Anon, was out there promoting a particular, let's say, recovery center, that would not be in alignment because there might be somebody who has some negative opinion about that particular recovery center and then would carry that negative opinion over onto the Al-Anon program, which is just totally wrong.

[00:06:37] We don't want that. We don't want to discourage people from seeking help because they have a resentment about something that really has nothing to do with us.

[00:06:45] Stephanie: From my perspective, part of the reason why AA and Al-Anon has benefited downstream from that, reputation is because they are not affiliated with anything, with any other enterprise. And, I go to one meeting and I say, if you can, we're gonna pass a basket. The suggested donation is, I think $3. But, we need you more than we need your money, so please keep coming back.”

[00:07:15] And I don't have to give my name, I don't have to give my phone number. No one cares about my employment status or, anyth- my political affiliations or opinions. We leave all that at the door. I think that makes the door much wider and room for anyone, who is affected by alcoholism, to be welcomed and hopefully to feel comfortable

[00:07:43] Spencer: Absolutely. Another example that came up, some years back now for me, I was member of a particular Al-Anon group. Our treasurer had let the balance that we were holding get quite large in comparison to the expenses of the group. She brought this to the meeting and said, ” what do we wanna do here?” In almost all the groups that I'm familiar with, the answer is that we pass that excess on to the larger organization, whether that's the district that we're in, the area that we're part of, or the World Service Organization.

[00:08:20] But one person in the meeting said, I think it would be a really good idea and be really helpful for us to supply AA literature to the jail.” I think this person had a connection with that, one of the alcoholics in their life had spent some time in the jail, so they had some familiarity, and they said, these guys really need this message.”

[00:08:43] The problem is that has nothing to do with Al-Anon. That was a somewhat divisive issue, and when the group voted to not do that, that person left the group. You know, it says here, “Lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary spiritual aim.” Well, we got a little bit diverted there about money.

[00:09:04] It's one of the reasons that it is recommended to only keep a prudent reserve. You know, the amount of money that you need for three to six months of expenses, and no more than that. Because then you get tempted to do something with it.

[00:09:18] Stephanie: And for most groups that prudent reserve,you're talking about,either rent that you're paying to, perhaps a church or a lodge or some venue that you can rent very reasonably in most cases. Or, in today's world, maybe a Zoom license and that sort of thing.

[00:09:39] And, maybe,I had a home group at one point that always served coffee. there was always coffee, so coffee expenses. But, we're talking about really fairly modest sums. Maybe the money to have some Al-Anon literature and the funds to cover expenses for your group representative and alternate representative to attend those regular meetings. But really you're not talking about vast sums of money in most cases.

[00:10:09] Spencer: It's not a lot of money. It might be a couple hundred dollars, depending on what your expenses are. In this case, it had gotten over $1,000, which is very tempting to take that and use it for something that feels likea good thing, but it's not an Al-Anon thing, and that's the problem

[00:10:29] Stephanie: I was at a meeting that I don't get to attend regularly and, we were traveling and, I got together this, this group, and they were doing a service project where they were, taking a few pieces of Al-Anon literature to different, I think bail bondsmen and social workers and some public libraries and public places. I think that fits within our… that's part of our public outreach. You know, if people in need don't know we're here, how can they find us?

[00:11:04] Spencer: Absolutely. My friend Eric, who's been a frequent co-host on the podcast, the first episode we did was about public outreach. Because he was involved with public outreach in his district, and eventually, public outreach at the state level where he lives. He talked about bringing it to places like school counselors, and to doctor's offices, and showing up at these community fairs and having a, an Al-Anon table, to just get the word out that, hey, this exists, and we welcome you. If you think you might need us, we're here for you. That's been very important to him, and to many other people, I'm sure.So yeah, that's really important and it is totally in alignment with what we're talking about here.

[00:12:01] I'm gonna read the next paragraph, which talks about this sentence about Alcoholics Anonymous.

[00:12:08] We do have a special relationship with one outside group, Alcoholics Anonymous. Although we are completely separate and unaffiliated with AA, we owe a debt of gratitude to the program from which we adopted the 12 steps. We cooperate with AA in a variety of ways. For example, we might offer our Al-Anon experience, strength, and hope by serving as speakers at special AA meetings or conferences. We might share convention facilities or joint Al-Anon and AA information offices under certain conditions. The point is to graciously support the AA program when we can while maintaining our own distinct identity.

[00:12:49] I've got some things to say here, but I'll let you go first.

[00:12:52] Stephanie: I think the thing… how to balance that gracious support, while also maintaining our own identity. I think partly the service manual gives some very clear examples and guidance for some things that might be a little bit gray. The part of this paragraph that I reflected on some was how to do that on a personal level I think the next paragraph talks about that a little bit more.

[00:13:20] Spencer: Yeah. It says, for example, we might offer our Al-Anon experience strength and hope by serving as speakers at special AA meetings or conferences. I've seen both of those things happen.

[00:13:31] In particular, there is an AA meeting nearby, which has an AA speaker once a week, and once a month, they offer that slot to an Al-Anon speaker. And the people who are hearing the message are mostly AA members, but a fair number of Al-Anon's also show up for that when we can. It's about a forty-five-minute drive from my house, so I don't make it there every time.

[00:14:00] It's a wonderful service of carrying the message.And my opinion, and this is my opinion solely, this is not the opinion of Al-Anon necessarily, is that I think every single member of Alcoholics Anonymous qualifies for membership in Al-Anon should they want to. Because they undoubtedly have a relative or a friend who has a problem with alcoholism.

[00:14:27] Stephanie: Probably lots,

[00:14:29] Spencer: Yes, probably lots.

[00:14:30] Stephanie: At least one or two or a few,

[00:14:33] Spencer: Yep.

[00:14:34] We're grateful to them for offering us that space, and time. And it gives us a way to carry the message to a few more people who might benefit from it. Also there's a couple of AA conferences in the area that have, as we say, Al-Anon participation. So that means that there's some Al-Anon workshops, there's at least one Al-Anon speaker, sometimes an Alateen speaker, along with the AA workshops and the AA speakers that are at those conferences.

[00:15:08] I think that there's two things going on there that are helpful. One is, some AAs will wander into the Al-Anon presentations and again, hopefully get something from it. But also, my wife and I are a couple, we can both go to the convention and find messages that are speaking to our experience, strength, and hope. Speaking to ourselves.

[00:15:31] She might come to some Al-Anon talks. I might go to some AA talks. Generally the speakers are very well attended by everybody. …Somewhere in the book it talks about learning about alcoholism, and for me, that was one of the best ways for me to really understand what alcoholism meant at a personal level by hearing this message from people who were not my loved one, because I could hear the message more easily from them, you know?

[00:15:58] I have been an Al-Anon speaker at a couple of AA conferences and also Al-Anon conferences. So this is a thing that I think is really good that happens, that we have some cross-communication between the two programs.

[00:16:18] Stephanie: I too have gone to conferences and open AA meetings where there are speakers. It's funny, when you sit in the chair and you hear somebody, tell one of your loved one's stories pretty much verbatim, somehow I'm able to have a different kind of perspective and see it in a different light where the poor choices they make and the harmful things they do, that they aren't a villain. That this is somebody struggling who's,not maybe doing a very good job, but they're trying to find their way. And the things they're doing are not, personal attacks on their employer, on their spouse, on their kids, on their neighbors. It's not like they get out of bed in the morning and are like, “Gee, I wonder how I can really embarrass my wife and family. I think I'll get drunk and leave the car parked on the front lawn.” No, they got drunk, they blacked out, and don't even remember coming home. Being able to hear it where it's that separation I think lets me actually hear in a way that I can't when it's somebody that's very close to me.

[00:17:33] Spencer: Absolutely.

[00:17:35] Stephanie: I think the part about that we have this special relationship only with AA. I think sometimes it's confusing for individuals that, at least the groups that I've attended regularly, if there's Al-Anon participation, we typically make announcements or, let folks know about those, conferences or those types of special meetings where there's joint speakers.

[00:18:02] And I think for folks it can be confusing because we announce this, but we don't announce, I don't know, I've been in a group where there were folks that attended this special retreat that a long-term Jesuit priest did. And, yes, some of those things are wonderful, and as an individual, I'm of course free to read anything I wanna read, go to anything I wanna go to.

[00:18:31] But I don't bring the flyers for that retreat or workshop or whatever it is to my meeting and pass them out and announce it at my meeting. I think sometimes people just don't understand, why can we announce these AA functions that have Al-Anon participation, but not all these other things that are also wonderful perhaps, you know, in someone's opinion.

[00:18:57]

[00:18:57] Spencer: I think making that determination, is this outside or is this program? It can get a little tricky. I think about a local recovery center ran an education program. I'm not sure if they're still doing it. I've lost track. And one of the sessions in their education program was an Al-Anon panel. In one of the meetings that I went to, it may have been announced in other meetings, they're looking for Al-Anons to participate in this panel. But it's not an Al-Anon meeting. It's not part of the Al-Anon program. We're sharing our personal experience, strength, and hope there.So we are carrying the message as, we see in step 12, but we're not doing itunder the aegis of Al-Anon per se.

[00:19:47] It gets a little fuzzy sometimes. Is this Al-Anon? Is it not Al-Anon? What's going on here? This podcast is not Al-Anon. ? I try to make that pretty clear, but I am bringing mine and yours and other people's messages of recovery through Al-Anon or similar programs. ‘Cause, sometimes I get, like, people from Adult Children sharing their experience, strength, and hope.

[00:20:11] And sometimes that will bring people who are listening to the podcast into the Al-Anon program. But I want to make it very clear that what I'm saying here is not Al-Anon. I do not represent Al-Anon.I represent myself and my experience in the program, and you represent yourself and your experience in the program. That's why we have that little disclaimer at the front.

[00:20:35] Stephanie: Spencer, I too have been an outside speaker at those types of events. And my sponsor helped me come up with a little disclosure there that, yes, I'm a member, but I'm here only as an individual, and all I can share with you is my experience, strength, and hope. I'm not a representative of the program. I'm just a member.

[00:21:02] Spencer: Yeah. That's it. We are not representing the program, only ourselves. Yeah.

[00:21:07] Okay, last paragraph. You wanna read that?

[00:21:10] Stephanie: Tradition six can also benefit us when applied personally. It reminds us to keep our serenity and spirituality as our first priorities. Rather than losing our focus with other distractions, we learn to put first things first. By taking an inventory of our motives, we can keep our lives balanced. We can share the benefits of Al-Anon by our own behavior toward family members. But we accept that not everyone will seek the help that we have found. This tradition also reminds us that it's possible to cooperate with others while remaining true to our principles.

[00:21:48] Spencer: There is so much in there. Wow.

[00:21:50] Stephanie: Yeah.

[00:21:51] Spencer: This is where I actually reach to another piece of Al-Anon literature, which is the book Reaching for Personal Freedom, which has member shares and then questions to help me think about how this principle of this tradition can apply in different parts of my life. Particularly this last sentence, “It's possible to cooperate with others while remaining true to our principles, and keeping our lives balanced.”

[00:22:19] I pulled a few questions from that book. This is a book that's available from Al-Anon. I will put a link in the show notes at the recovery dot show slash 463 .

[00:22:30] So we have some questions here. How can trying to please everyone around me divert me from my own primary purpose? In what ways can I share differing opinions with others without diminishing the quality of the relationship? How can my overdependence on someone else harm our relationship with each other? And how can someone else's overdependence on me harm our relationship with each other? Those are just a few of the questions that are in that book that spoke to me at the moment that I pulled them out.

[00:22:59] When I look back, it's always easier to see than what's happening in the moment.

[00:23:04] You know what I mean?When I look back, I can see that, trying to please everyone around me certainly diverted me from doing what I wanted or needed to do. There were many times when I put somebody else's wants and needs ahead of my own, which meant that I wasn't doing something to satisfy my own wants and needs most likely. That's just one example for me about how I could take this tradition and apply it in my life.

[00:23:37] And the other thing that really jumped out for me in this paragraph is this thing about motives. That has become a really important question for me when I'm considering something that some part of me is saying, “Is this really a good thing? Is this really something that you want to do?”

[00:23:58] Years ago, a friend of mine had some bad stuff happen in their life. I was thinking, oh, I should call this person and express my sympathy and support for what they were going through. But there was this part of me that was like, ” Is this really something that is appropriate for me to do?” So I called up another friend in program and I said, “I'm thinking about doing this.” And my friend said, “What's your motive for doing that?” That was the first time that I consciously had used that question and heard that question, and I was like, “What's my motive?” I realized that I was feeling uncomfortable about the fact that this person had gone through something terrible, and I wanted to make myself feel better. So I didn't call. That can be a really important question. What's my motive?

[00:24:50] How do you see yourself applying this tradition?

[00:24:53] Stephanie: Spencer, for me, the primary purpose, I can remember the very first time I really heard the Tradition Six. I went to a tradition meeting. It wasn't a meeting I went to all the time just because of my work schedule, and when I heard those words, not money, property, or prestige, like really that really sunk in.

[00:25:22] That means that none of those things are my primary purpose. You know, the home I was raised in, my alcoholic dad I think probably would have subscribed– would have agreed with the statement that, your primary purpose is to acquire as much money, property, and prestige as possible in this life.

[00:25:41] If that was not good information, then what was my primary purpose? How do I find a spiritual path that I can follow? And balance that with the reality of my day-to-day life? We still have responsibilities that we have to tend to. So for me, that was just a realkind of light bulb moment.

[00:26:10] You know, I couldn't answer all those questions that day. In fact, it took me a long time to even begin to be able to answer those questions for myself. But it was certainlya very useful moment for me to at least take in that information and be able to see the world from a totally different perspective that that I just didn't have.

[00:26:34] Spencer: You know, at the beginning we talk about changed attitudes, and perspective is definitely a big part of that. I want to read this email from Gail, who wrote in response to my questions about, “Hey, share your experience, strength, and hope on tradition six.” She writes,

[00:26:49] “Tradition six has become foundational for me. The eye-opener was a member share experience, strength, and hope on page 189 in Paths to Recovery. The statement, ‘I no longer need to carry another person to prove that I am valuable.' Also, the three-word phrase of endorse, finance, or lend my name gave me insight and boundaries to evaluate the true nature of my thoughts and actions.

[00:27:16] The phrase money, property, and prestige is another three-word phrase that helps me evaluate exactly what my actions and reactions are about. From these realizations, I can make better choices.

[00:27:28] The phrase my aim is spiritual reminds me that my job in this life and journey is spiritual. For me, that means striving to live in conscious contact.”

[00:27:39] Thanks, Gail.

[00:27:41] And thank you, Gail, for writing about how you're using this tradition in your life. Picking out these phrases, endorse, finance, or lend my name. And setting a boundary, That's how we keep ourselves and everything else separate, and how we keep ourselves from wandering off into a place where maybe it's not good for us to wander off.

[00:28:04] It's boundaries, right?

[00:28:06] Stephanie: I really like the idea of, if I'm contemplating some action, has this person asked for my help specifically? And if they have asked,what is my motive for helping?Like you spoke of earlier. And I think many times when I peel it all the way back and get really honest, it's because I'm afraid and uncomfortable. I will do almost anything to keep from feeling that uncomfortableness. In doing so, sometimes I have done things that took away somebody's dignity. Because I did something for them that they need to be able to do for themselves. They might not do it for themselves the way I think it should be done or they might not do it at all. But,when we're talking about other adults, I think that's their prerogative.

[00:29:09] I think it's much, much trickier when you're talking about minor children. But, today, thankfully, my dealings are with other adults, and I think it's, it's pretty clear, if they haven't asked for my help, I should just stay in my own lane and mind my own business

[00:29:28] Spencer: Yeah. There is a person in my life who frequently asks for assistance. Because she needs it. She's in a living situation that is really not sustainable. But I'm very clear whether I can provide the help or not.I got a text from her the other night that said, “Hey, can you give me a ride somewhere today?” I said, “No. Today I can't. Today is completely full of stuff.” I didn't even say that. I just said I can't, because I don't need to explain, I don't need to justify. As we've heard in this program, at least some of us, no can be a complete sentence. Or perhaps stronger, no is a complete sentence.

[00:30:12] And she respects that. She says, “Thank you for letting me know.” ? Because if I don't, that leaves her in a difficult situation too.But also, I don't offer things that she hasn't asked for. I think helps to keep our relationship as healthy as it can be.

[00:30:32] That feels like a case of avoiding overdependence in either direction and not trying to please, but to be a friend, to be a support when I can, as long as it doesn't divert me from the rest of my life.

[00:30:49] Stephanie: For me, I think especially lending money or giving money, with family members that are in difficult situations can just be, I don't know, Spencer, I don't even quite have the words, but it's just, at least my experience has been that doesn't always go well. Let's just put it like that. I think part of the problem is that for me, lending money seems to create expectations. And you know what I've heard around the rooms is, an expectation is a premeditated resentment. And today I don't want any more resentments that I'm gonna have to put on my list to deal with.

[00:31:32] So I just try tobe very thoughtful about, how I extend myself

[00:31:39] Spencer: That's one of the reasons that I try to be very clear with this person in particular, but with others, what I can do and what I can't do.That I'm not setting up expectations really on either side. That each interaction is contained and doesn't, lap over into some indefinite future where resentments could very easily arise.

[00:31:59]

[00:32:00] Stephanie: I think the only way I can do that fairly well is I have to let go of the fact that other person may not be pleased with me. When the answer is no or not today.

[00:32:14] Spencer: That is so important. If I set a boundary, and another person is not pleased with that boundary, that's about them, I may feel discomfort that they're not happy with me. But as, a friend of mine says, that discomfort is because I'm doing something different than I used to do, and doing something different is uncomfortable,

[00:32:38] And now I, I'm much more comfortable at saying, “No, I'm sorry, I can't do that today.”

[00:32:43] Stephanie: And sometimes what happens is not only is the individual not happy about the decision, but sometimes that gets shared with other family members or other friends, and then they have opinions about that. Just learning to be able to be at peace with that and that I don't have to defend my decisions. If they feel so strongly, you know, I have on occasion suggested that maybe there's some action they should take. And again, that doesn't always go overreal well. But I think it kind of puts the ball back in their court.

[00:33:19] Spencer: Yep. Absolutely I'm trying to think of a wrap up thing here to say. For me this tradition is about keeping my stuff inside my hula hoop, as we say, and leaving other people's stuff in their hula hoops, so that we don't interfere and collide with each other.

[00:33:43] Stephanie: I read several readings and,one of them talked about focus,keeping the focus on myself. And then also, this, this principle of integrity that if I can be true to myself and, what is the thing I've heard? Say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it mean. That just goes a long way to giving me a path where I can cooperate with others, but not in a destructive way.

[00:34:21] Spencer: Right. We'll take a little break and then we'll continue with Our Lives in Recovery, where we talk about how recovery is working in our daily lives.

Song 1

[00:34:30] Spencer: I asked you to bring music. You did. What is the first song that you chose?

[00:34:34] Stephanie: Our first musical selection is from The Beatles. It's an old song called Blackbird. I'm really partial to this song. As a little girl growing up with an active alcoholic dad and a mom who was really suffering, you know, I often longed to just be able to fly away. And as a young teenager when I heard this song, I really related to it. And then later, for a special birthday, my son, who's a talented, musician, learned this song on his acoustic guitar and played it for me. It's just special to me and I hope it,maybe is helpful for somebody else.

[00:35:16]

Our Lives in Recovery

[00:35:25] Spencer: In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery. How have we experienced recovery recently?

[00:35:32] Future Spencer here. This episode was actually recorded before episode number 362 was recorded, so this experience that I'm about to relate may sound familiar, but weirdly so because I actually recorded this before the most recent episode. So that's what's going on here. The recovery experience is what's important for me here.

[00:35:59] One thing that is on my mind, and it's a situation that is not resolved, and may not resolve in a way that I like at all. My brother received some bad health news recently. We don't really know yet how bad it is. We don't know what Treatment options he has. And I certainly don't know what treatment options he might choose to avail himself of. It's a very unsettled feeling at the moment, you know?

[00:36:35] Like, okay, here we are at the beginning of a journey. We don't know where that journey's going. We don't know how that journey is going. And also, I don't know if there's anything I can do, except be there as a support as much as I can. And I'm okay with it. I'm okay with it. I know that the eventual outcome may be something that I really don't wanna have happen. But I can be okay, and I can be okay sitting in the uncertainty, and being ready to do something when something becomes evident, available for, for me to do.

[00:37:22] I don't think I would respond that way without the program of recovery that I have been working for some years now. That feels good. I don't have to spend time worrying about it. It's not keeping me awake at night or waking me up in the middle of the night, which certainly is a thing that used to happen. I know that all of us who love him, we'll be there and we'll do what we can. And that's okay.

[00:37:59] Wow, that is one of the real things that I have internalized from my experience in Al-Anon recovery, which is, bad things happen, but I can be okay. I might be sad But I can be okay. Somehow, that's a really powerful mantra for me. I can be okay. It will be okay. It might not be what I want, but it will be okay.

[00:38:25] So yeah, that's what I got right now. How's recovery working in your life today?

[00:38:31] Stephanie: You know, the program has taught me how to stay in my day, and stay in the momentmuch better than I'veever been able to do. You know, I think the part about the program is life keeps moving and keeps changing. And,my folks, we live very far from where I grew up right now, and so they're at least an 11-hour drive back to them.

[00:39:00] And, my stepdad, over a year ago was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. He'sa very bright gentleman and he's always been super active. I was there last weekend for just a bit, and he couldn't remember how to get to some place that he's gone to many, many, many times. Now he's using a cane or a walker. And you know, I don't like it. I don't like that this is what's happening. But at the same time,this is just the reality. I can be grateful that he was willing to quit driving of his own volition, and that he's getting top-notch medical care. And I just have to accept that, my parents are aging visibly, and at the same time know that,today they're okay, and I'm okay, and,use the same, the same pieces we've been talking about. Are they asking for my help? And, today they do ask for some help.

[00:40:15] But you know, I try to only help with what they ask for, and I try not to give them, opinions about a bunch of other things that I have opinions about. I really like the slogans, let go and let God, and live and let live. Those two slogans I think in this,with my parents, are really helping me to, accept that this is where we are, and just to be able to enjoy them where they're at. Like you, I don't think I'm gonna like what may be around the corner. But, we're not around the corner yet. It's just really useful for me to bring myself back and not, borrow trouble.

[00:41:10] Spencer: Thank you.

[00:41:11] Looking forward in the podcast, an upcoming topic will be a conversation about the law of attraction, which suggests that positive thoughts can help us achieve the outcomes we want, while negative thoughts can hold us back. I know a number of people, and probably including myself, who have seen this happening in our recovery.

[00:41:34] So, think about how have you seen this happening in your recovery. If you want to contribute to the episode, we welcome your thoughts. Join our conversation. You can leave us a voicemail or send us an email with your feedback or your questions. And Stephanie, how can people do that?

[00:41:53] Stephanie: You can send a voice memo or email to feedback@therecovery.show. Or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 734-707-8795. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer.

[00:42:16] We'd love to hear from you. Share your experience, strength, and hope or your questions about today's topic of Tradition Six or any of our upcoming topics, including the law of attraction. If you have a topic you'd like us to talk about, let us know.

[00:42:33] If you'd like advance notice for some of our topics so that you could contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback@therecovery.show. Put “email” in the subject line to make it easier to spot.

[00:42:48] Spencer, where can our listeners find out more about the Recovery Show?

[00:42:54] Spencer: That would be at our website, which is therecovery.show. We have all the information about the show there, which is mostly the notes for each episode. Those notes include links to the books that we read from or mentioned, videos for the music that Stephanie chose, and also there you can find links to some other recovery podcasts and websites.

Song 2

[00:43:17] Spencer: Stephanie, what is your second song that you chose?

[00:43:22] Stephanie: The song title is Turtles All the Way Down by Sturgill Simpson.This song, I heard the, musician give an explanation that I just thought was really beautiful, where he talked about,that love was the only thing that had saved him. And for me, when I first came to meetings, I was so broken, and really the warmth and welcome of the individuals at my first home group were really a lifesaver for me. This song reminds me of that.

[00:44:01]

Listener Feedback

[00:44:09] Spencer: Now it's time to hear from you.

[00:44:11] Caroline wrote, “Hi Spencer. Any chance there are episodes about legal battles, custody of kids, co-parenting, or trying to get full custody from an alcoholic father as a mother? Thank you for your service, Caroline.”

[00:44:26] I wrote back to Caroline. I said, “This has not been a topic really on the Recovery show. I know that some guests have talked about their divorces. I did find a few episodes that might relate to your question.

[00:44:37] Number 358, titled “Al-Anon After Divorce.” the divorce was after her son turned 18, so didn't have custody or co-parenting issues.

[00:44:47] 460, “Healing and Hope: Michelle's Path to Recovery,” there is some discussion of the divorce.

[00:44:54] Number 356, “Domestic Violence and Other Unacceptable Behavior,” she definitely talks about divorce. I think she did have a daughter. Yeah.

[00:45:04] 293, “Lynn: Grief Can Be a Wonderful Thing,” divorce is definitely part of her story.

[00:45:10] And 342, “Co-Parenting With an Alcoholic,” I think also connects to your question.

[00:45:18] Of course, what we do here on the podcast is we share our own experience, strength and hope. We don't give advice. But I would love to hear from anyone who has experience, strength and hope to share in a podcast episode about issues around divorce, co-parenting, et cetera, so we can delve a little deeper. And even though we've touched on, for example, co-parenting, everybody's experience is different, and having a diversity of experience to share is valuable.

[00:45:48] Christine writes, “Hello. I remember when someone in my Al-Anon home group had emailed me and told me about this podcast. I've been struggling a lot over the last week or so, especially. Though I've been struggling for a while since my husband returned home from treatment.

[00:46:02] I've gone to more Al-Anon meetings virtually, but I will say revisiting this podcast as a very first-time listener today has been great since some of my virtual Al-Anon meetings, I was new to that particular group, and then I'm scrambling to get Cal or have the list of the 12 Steps or 12 Traditions. With your podcast, I can just show up and listen.

[00:46:23] Thank you. I've only listened to two episodes in no particular order, but I have enjoyed the discussions and the speakers who have been willing to open up and share their journey. The journey for me will continue irrespective of the behavior of my alcoholic husband. He's still sober but is exhibiting dry drunk behavior currently.

[00:46:40] This podcast, as well as connecting additional Al-Anon meetings, has provided some grounding stability for me. Perhaps one day I'll get brave enough to offer up and share my own journey on your podcast. Thank you for your service to so many through this podcast and the sharing of experiences and stories.

[00:46:58] All the best to you, Christine R. in Virginia.”

[00:47:02] Thank you for writing, Christine, and keep on listening. There are a lot more episodes out there for you.

[00:47:10] Finola writes, “Dear Spencer and friends, thank you so much and your guest speaker for the powerful episode on children and addiction and the podcast in general.”

[00:47:19] And the episode on children and addiction was number 462 just prior to this. Finola continues, “I work with children in another field. I always felt there had to be more that we could do to support children through this disease. This recent podcast gave me some language so I could bring up some of the ideas with my own child.

[00:47:40] He responded so beautifully to the seven Cs. It was almost like a weight was lifted off him. Keep up the wonderful work, all of you. Finola in Ireland.”

[00:47:50] Just as a quick reminder, the seven C's start out with the three C's that many of us are already familiar with. I didn't Cause it. I can't Control it. I can't Cure it. And then four more C's. I can help take Care of myself by Communicating my feelings, making healthy Choices, and Celebrating me. So cause, control, cure, care, communicating, choices, and celebrating.

[00:48:13] And yeah, I love them. Thanks for writing, Finola.

[00:48:17] Neil writes, “First off, I love your podcast. It's nice to hear things from a different perspective, meaning the male spouse of an alcoholic. My wife is currently in week two of a treatment program, so she is getting the help and support she needs to fight her addiction.

[00:48:31] My question is, where did you get help from, and what books or literature you use to help yourself get through the first phase, I guess. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Neil.”

[00:48:41] I wrote back to Neil. ” The best thing I did was to start attending Al-Anon meetings. I was lucky that the meeting I first attended was a healthy meeting that focused on recovery and was not just a place for people to complain about the alcoholics in their lives.

[00:48:55] The next best thing was…” Notice I'm saying next best thing, not next best thing. Got it? Okay. The next best thing was to buy some Al-Anon literature and read it. I got “How Al-Anon Works” and I was gifted a copy of “One Day at a Time in Al-Anon.” “How Al-Anon Works” in particular for me was really helpful, to help me get through those sleepless nights and maybe actually get some sleep because I could jump to the stories in the back of the book and read a story or two, and that would give me some hope and sort of calm me down and let me sleep. Both of these books are available at the Al-Anon bookstore online, at al-anon.org under Members/Literature menu at the top of the page.

[00:49:42] Back to my experience, I also got some help from the friends and family programs at the various treatment centers and programs that my wife attended over the years. Some were more helpful than others, and it definitely took more than one of those for the message to really sink in for me.

[00:49:58] A third, fourth, I don't know, source of help was listening to open talks by AA members. I found that extremely helpful in giving me an understanding of the disease of alcoholism. Hearing their stories helped me to realize that my wife's problems were not of her choosing and were not a failure of will on her part. Or as Eric likes to say, “She was not drinking at me.”

[00:50:22] So there's some of the things that I did early on. I also started working the steps fairly early, but that's sort of the, the next step, you know?

[00:50:32] But where I really found recovery was in working the steps. So I do recommend doing that when you feel you're ready, or maybe slightly before you feel you're ready.

[00:50:43] Jessica writes, “Hello. I started listening to this podcast after entering into Al-Anon, after Al-Anon was suggested to me from my counselor. I was struggling, as I now know as my qualifier who is my spouse. I started to attend meetings, but I was finding that I needed something more in between my meetings and stumbled on your podcast via a Google search. I enjoy this podcast so much. I enjoy hearing the perspective of everyone on the show, and I feel like I sort of am getting to know you guys.

[00:51:12] You guys talk a lot about feedback, and I wanted to offer my two cents. This podcast is a safe space for all and is really something you guys should be proud of. What a wonderful job you are doing. I'm so blessed to have found such a wonderful place to be, and I know this is where I'm supposed to be.

[00:51:28] Keep being awesome. I look forward to more episodes. I have not reached the 20th episode, but I truly enjoy this content. Keep coming back. Thanks. Jessica from Canada.” North of the border friends, as I once heard as a reference to us Canadians on one of the episodes, made me laugh, lOL. Thanks for writing, Jessica. I did write back to Jessica briefly and say thank you, and maybe, you know, also listen to the most recent episodes because if you're starting from the beginning, and trying to do them in order, it's gonna take a while to get caught up. Yeah, you keep coming back too, Jessica. Thanks for writing.

[00:52:06] And that's listener feedback for this episode.

Thank you, Stephanie

[00:52:09] Spencer: Stephanie, I wanna thank you today for joining me, for our conversation, our exploration of tradition six and some of the ways it shows up in our own lives.

Song 3

[00:52:20] Spencer: We got one more song. What is it?

[00:52:23] Stephanie: Our last song selection is Somewhere Over the Rainbow by Iz. I think this is just a beautiful song that talks about that our dreams really can come true.

[00:52:36] When I came to the program, the program helped me for the very first time really be able to have dreams. You all told me that I could be happy, joyous, and free. Today most of the time I can do that, and I think this song speaks to that.

[00:52:52]

Outro

[00:52:57] Spencer: Thank you for listening, and please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you are facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding, love, and peace grow in you one day at a time.