Intro

[00:00:01] Spencer: How can children affected by alcoholism and addiction be supported? The National Association for Children of Addiction is dedicated to the children who are too often invisible in the addiction and recovery space.

[00:00:13] Welcome to episode 462 of The Recovery Show. This episode is brought to you by Jason and Sima. They used the donation button on our website. Thank you, Jason and Sima, for your generous contributions. This episode is for you.

[00:00:26] We are friends and family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:44] Peggy: Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12-step program. During this show, we will share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you will find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:01:07] Spencer: My name is Spencer. I am your host today. Joining me today is Peggy McGillicuddy, who is director of children's programs for the National Association for Children of Addiction, which we abbreviate N-A-C-O-A. Do you pronounce it somehow, Peggy? And welcome to the Recovery Show, by the way.

[00:01:26] Peggy: Yeah, we pronounce it NACoA.

[00:01:28] Spencer: NACoA. Okay, that's a lot less of a mouthful.

[00:01:31] Peggy: Yeah, I like to use that for sure. Thanks, Spencer.

Supporting Children in Recovery

[00:01:34] Peggy: NACoA's mission is to eliminate the adverse impact of alcohol and drug use on children and families. NACoA was created to bring focused national attention to children impacted by a parent or family member's alcohol or drug use.

[00:01:49] For more than four decades, NACoA has brought together experts, professionals, advocates, volunteers, and people with lived experience to improve the resources and systems available to children and families. Our work includes professional training, program development, public education, advocacy, technical assistance, and partnerships with organizations in the United States and around the world. Through every stage of this work, our focus has remained the same: helping children receive the understanding, support, and hope that they deserve.

[00:02:24] Spencer: Which sounds really important.

[00:02:27] Peggy: I think so.

[00:02:28] Spencer: I have children who were affected by the disease of alcoholism, and certainly the professional support that they got, and the 12-step program support they got, I think didn't really fit them.so I'm interested to hear more about what NACoA does. But first, what drew you into this work? Why are you here?

[00:02:50] Peggy: Thanks for asking that, because I really like to tell the story of what drew me into this work, because it really kind of happened by accident. I just want to start by sharing that I grew up in a family where my mom struggled with alcoholism. My mom got sober when I was 13. She now has 42 years of sobriety. But when she got sober, she did go into a treatment center, much like you mentioned with your children, Spencer. My younger brother and sister and I were brought there, brought into a room with three adults we had never met before, who plopped us down and said, “Your mom is an alcoholic.” And the three of us really just shut down.

[00:03:34] I didn't want to hear anything more about it. I had in my head what an alcoholic meant. I loved my mother. I knew she was a wonderful person, and my knowledge of addiction didn't match with the mom that I knew. I would say that that was where my denial first started.

[00:03:54] Luckily, fast-forward, about 15 years later, I started to work at an addiction treatment center in Southern California. I started in the admissions department there. One day a gentleman walked in and approached me and said, “Hey, I wanna introduce myself. I hear you have experience with children,” which I did, that was my background. And he said, “You know, we have a children's program here, and I wanted to see if you wanna come and just volunteer and take a look at my program. I'm the director. Would you be willing to come check it out? We're looking for a new counselor.” I have to say I was bewildered. Because in my head I'm thinking, “Okay, wait a minute.”

[00:04:38] He said they work with kids ages seven to 12. They're gonna teach them about addiction, give them a chance to talk about their feelings, learn some coping skills. But in my head, I was like, “How is… How does this work? How is this gonna help? Won't this just make things worse?” But I was intrigued, so I said, “You know what? I'm gonna try it.” So I went to the program. What they did at that treatment center, they had a five-day family program for adults, and they also had this four-day children's program. Four days right in a row, an intensive program for kids ages seven to 12. It was one of the very few treatment centers in the country that did this. I was lucky enough that,the treatment center and the woman that founded it, which was Betty Ford, it was the Betty Ford Center, was very focused on full family recovery, that everybody in the family deserves recovery.

[00:05:34] So I went to this program, and I observed the four days. We worked with 12 kids. They came in that first day apprehensive, a little bit afraid. But what happened was the counselors started with asking them four questions after we'd played a little bit and gotten to know each other. And the four questions were, “What is your name, your age, where you live, and who in your family has had a problem with maybe drinking too much alcohol or using drugs?” That's one thing that everybody in the group has in common. There's somebody that we love, that we care about so much that's really been struggling with this. “And who is it in your family?” So I really, at that moment, Spencer, I thought, “Pfft, nobody's gonna share.” But one child put his hand up, and he said, “Hey, I'm Ben. I live in Los Angeles. In my family, it's my dad who drinks too much, and my parents get in a lot of fights, and I feel sad when that happens.” And then literally every hand went up in that room, and the floodgates were open.

[00:06:46] And so I stayed. I watched that process for four days. We also worked with the parents. It was, for me, having grown up in a family with addiction, that was, I feel like, when my recovery process started, to be able to witness something that I never had when I was a kid, and that I so wish I did. And I remember leaving that program that day and saying to myself, “If I had had this when I was a child, if somebody had explained to me what was going on, that the addiction in my family was not my fault, it was a disease, that my mom was not a bad person, and given me a chance to talk about my feelings and my worries, my life would've been so different.”

[00:07:36] So that was it for me, and I stayed. And that's pretty much what I've been doing for the rest of my professional life in some capacity. I'm either been working children's programs or helping people set up programs. I'm currently working with a treatment center right now to help them start a children's program, and part of my job is I do a presentation to the patients there.

[00:08:02] And I always start with, “Gosh, if you're willing, how many people here grew up in families where there was an addiction problem?” And I'll tell you, pretty much everyone raises their hand. So the way I look at it is that the parents, the adults that are going into treatment or going into recovery, going into 12-step meetings, are the same little kids from yesterday that never got help themselves. That's why I think this work is so important, because we can break that cycle. And this is a disease that we don't talk about, because there's still so much stigma attached.

[00:08:41] Spencer: That was how long ago? Can I ask?

[00:08:44] Peggy: You can. I was 28 years old, I'm now 55. I've been doing it for a while. In between doing that work, I've also worked, at a center for grieving children. I'm a big believer in group work, not just for adults, but also for children.

[00:09:01] The programs that I run provide education and support. It's not therapy. I also know that I got my own support. Shortly after I started doing this work, I realized, you know what? I gotta work on my own stuff. and I started to go to Al-Anon, and that was, part of my process as well.

[00:09:20] Spencer: You're talking about the stigma. I was at a concert last night, and one of the performers, at one point, mentioned that she had been sober for two and a half years. And the audience applauded. She said, “Oh, don't do that. It's not a big deal.” And I'm like, “Yes, it is.”

[00:09:36] Peggy: Oh, it is.

[00:09:37] Yeah

[00:09:38] Spencer: I actually went up and spoke to her afterwards and said, “No, it is a big deal. I know how hard it is,” because my wife's been in recovery for a long time.

[00:09:45] Peggy: Yeah.

[00:09:46] Spencer: You know, I just felt like I had to do that. I don't know if it made any difference for her or not.

[00:09:50] Peggy: Yeah, it, it is important.

[00:09:53] Spencer: Back to our actual topic, You talked in your story about how you didn't get appropriate support for recovery, that you just turned off immediately. I think that's pretty much what happened to my kids too.

[00:10:12] they had a children's program at the treatment facility where my wife was in residence for a while, and we brought the kids a few times. I know one of them, what I heard from the therapist was, “Yeah, that kid just hid in the corner behind the big beanbag. When I talked to him many years later, he was– he basically didn't connect at all, wasn't interested in being there. The approach just didn't work for him, you know.

[00:10:44] So one of the things that you express that you're doing, is helping to educate therapists at treatment centers with perhaps a more approachable way to, to bring children in. and you said seven to 12 is the age group that you focus on?

[00:10:59] Peggy: Yeah, so that's been the age group that I've focused on. I've also worked with teens, but that particular age groupis a group that really has had no resources. I feel adults are often scared to talk about this topic with kids, which is understandable. Of course very well-meaning organizations and people in treatment centers set up programs for kids, but sometimes I see what happens is we set up… they're not really children's programs, they're adult-focused programs for children. What I mean by that is, I know when I do groups with kids, for the first couple hour and a half, I'm just gonna have some fun. Because we know that what's important to kids is the relationship. And quite frankly, that's with adults as well.

[00:11:50] But how do I build a relationship with a child, right? I have to enter their world. I have to get to know who they are, and also, I have to let them come into my group at their own pace. So just like what you're describing with your son,when kids come into our group, sometimes they're like, “I don't wanna be here.” And I say, “You know what? I get it. I get it.”

[00:12:14] I clearly remember this one child I worked with years ago, and he came in with his arms crossed and said, “I don't wanna be here.” I said, “You know what? I get it, and guess what? Here's what I'm gonna suggest. You don't even have to join us in the circle. Why don't you just observe and see what you think? If you like it, come join us. If not, that's fine. You can leave.”Of course, what we're doing at the beginning of the group, we're playing get to know you games, we're throwing a Koosh ball around, we're having fun, and slowly that boy inched his way into the circle. When he was ready, and it took about an hour. But guess what? That's when he was ready, and as an adult, I have to respect that child's process.

[00:13:00] Spencer: Yeah. That's a great motivation for why we're talking about this. But there's another reason we're talking about it today.

[00:13:07] Peggy: Yes. We're coming towards September. I can't believe the summer's almost over, but September is recovery month. And, we always recognize that at NACoA, but this year we're trying to do something a little different. We're trying to really bring awareness to what kids experience. And also just awareness to the importance of whole family recovery.

[00:13:31] So what we're doing in September, we're starting a campaign called Voices of the Unheard, where we're going to be spreading the word about organizations and treatment centers that are providing services to kids and families. We're also just putting it out there in how people can advocate for kids. We have a whole media kit if folks want to be involved. We also are encouraging people to send in their own videos. Maybe share, like, why is it important that kids' voices get heard. And I can definitely provide you with any information on that.

[00:14:05] It's a campaign that we're really excited about, and, it's really just about trying to get the focus on those kids that, their voices are oftenput aside. I always say kids are the first to be impacted and they're the very last to be helped.

[00:14:24] Spencer: We will have a link on our website at therecovery.show/462, to a page about the Voices of the Unheard, where … I just took a quick look at it. There's a whole bunch of stuff there. There are ways you can participate. There's more information, about what's happening and so on. So that link will be there.

[00:14:43] What is the scope of the problem?

[00:14:46] Peggy: The scope of the problem is very large. It's one in four children in the US live in a home, where there's a substance use disorder, whether it's a parent, could be a sibling. If you think about that, it's one in four kids, and you look maybe in a classroom, filled with 30 children, that's a lot of children in one classroom.

[00:15:11] And we know that children who are living in homes impacted by addiction, we know that,they're more apt to experience depression, anxiety,abuse,all of those different factors. We also know they're more likely to be involved in the foster care system, juvenile justice system.

[00:15:34] So, by looking at helping these kids before they get to be adults, we are really looking at prevention. And we know it's a multi-generational disease. This runs in families. I come from a Irish background family. I see you smiling.

[00:15:56] Spencer: McGillicuddy, I think, oh yeah,

[00:15:57] Peggy: oh, yeah. Any, any guess that I might be Irish?

[00:16:00] Yeah. just a long history of it in my family and I've been very lucky to have had multiple family members get into recovery. But, it impacts so many people and also, you know, addiction is an isolating disease, which is really unfortunate because it is a disease, and we do not treat other diseases in the same way.

[00:16:26] We also know that children are rarely included in the recovery process. Also even if a family member doesn't choose to stop drinking or using drugs, or whatever addiction it might be, that doesn't mean that other family members can't have their own recovery for themselves. That's what Al-Anon is there for, and Alateen.

[00:16:48] Spencer: The word teen there implicitly cuts out the younger children. And I know that some groups do accept younger children into the group, depending on the dynamic of who's there.

[00:16:58] I remember trying to take– I was traveling, I was outside Washington, DC, and I wanted to go to a meeting, and I found a meeting where there was an Alateen meeting at the same time.My kids were 11, maybe even 12. I talked to the woman who was leading the Alateen meeting, saying, “Hey, here are my kids. Can they join your meeting?” And she said, basically, no, that most of the kids in the meeting were much older, and they were dealing with issues that, I don't know, my kids wouldn't relate to or whatever. My kids were perfectly happy. They got to sit out in the hall and play on their Game Boys instead of go into a stupid meeting. But it just speaks to, as you're saying, the lack of availability of resourcesfor younger children in particular.

[00:17:50] I will say also that in my area, there are very few Alateen meetings. I know people who drive an hour, an hour and a half to get to an Alateen meeting. So whatever we can do to provide more access to recovery resources, whatever that is, and, certainly 12-step recovery is one of the ways that can happen.

[00:18:12] But also probably, for a lot of kids, the first encounter they have with any recovery resource is when their relative, their parent, their sibling, goes into some kind of treatment, right? Is that true?

[00:18:28] Peggy: Yeah, I would say that's true. Or a relative goes into, starts attending a 12-step meeting.

[00:18:36] You know, for a lot of the kids that I work with, and this is why I think it's also really important to include kids in the recovery process. All of a sudden a parent goes to treatment, maybe they're gone for a month, then they come back, and all of a sudden every day they're going to these meetings. And the kids are like, “You've been gone for a month. Why aren't you hanging out with me?”But when kids get the information about how important those meetings are,they're proud, first of all. When kids get education about the disease of addiction and they realize, “Wow, this is really hard. What my parent is doing, getting better, is really difficult.”

[00:19:15] We keep it so simple when we work with kids. Treatment centers or places that people go for help, these are places where they go to talk about their feelings, their problems, and their secrets, and that helps make their bag lighter. And kids really get that, and we just say, “Gosh, it's something that people have to work on.”so often the kids that, that come through a programare very much supportive of that .

[00:19:44] How does the work of NACoA help? What is the work? The work that we are doing is a lot of advocacy. Trying to get the word out. We do a great deal of training, for professionals, but we also do speaking in communities,to educate folks. We are always developing resources, and I know that you can put a link to the resources that we have.

[00:20:12] We develop resources for parents, you know, how do we talk to our kids about this? Professionals, grandparents raising grandchildren, foster parents, and professionals working with kids. That's all part of what we're doing. We also do some consulting. For example, right now, I'm working with the Hanley Foundation, which is a treatment center in Southern Florida. They have developed a three-day children's program to complement their five-day family program, which is for adults. In fact, on Wednesday, I'll be heading down to Florida and facilitating a group with their staff. So that's part of what we do as well.

[00:20:54] We kind of have our hands in a lot of different places, but I think that the biggest challenge that we have is always education on the fact that children need to be considered when we talk about addiction. That's really our main focus.

[00:21:15] I also just wanna say that for us too,our work is strength based. One of the things that I think can be a challenge is not seeing the strengths that families have. The family has struggled with addiction in the family,but I know the kids, the families, the parents, the grandparents, the foster parents that I work with come into my groups with a lot of strengths. They have empathy, they have resourcefulness, problem-solving skills.

[00:21:52] Families tend to rally together. We see extended family members coming together. In a way, it's like if we were looking at a family that was struggling with a major illness like cancer, there are so many resources out there. You'd have neighbors coming over with casseroles like, “Oh my gosh, your mom's getting treatment for cancer. Let's make sure you have meals.” People would be asking about it,”How's so-and-so doing?” But not with this disease. So I think, reframing it and recognizing that this is a struggle. Sometimes there's relapse. But that doesn't mean that it's all bad, because it's not.I know for myself, as I'd mentioned at the beginning, one of the reasons I shut down in that first meeting at the treatment center I went to was because I felt like they were something, saying something negative about my mother, and that, for me, was unacceptable. That's not something that kids wanna hear. My mom had her struggles, but for me, she was a good mom. So there's that piece, too

[00:23:04] Spencer: Yeah. And there's all these dysfunctional family rules, you know, the don't talk, don't trust, don't feel trio there. That just sort of inhibits, I think, any reaching out for help,

[00:23:17] Peggy: Correct. Yes

[00:23:20] I think that one of the most important things that we can do for kids is to foster hope. One of the things that happens in group when kids connect with other kids, they realize they're not alone, and then they also realize what they can control and what they can't control.

[00:23:43] One of the tools that we use in NACoA, it's called the Seven Cs. The three Cs I think we're all familiar with. I didn't cause it, I can't control it, and I can't cure it. We tell people, “Here are the things that you didn't do or you can't do. But what can you do?” And we work with kids on this. I can help take care of myself, that's another C, by communicating my feelings, making healthy choices, and celebrating me. And those are the Seven Cs. What can't I do, but what can I do?

[00:24:20] That provides hope, because there are things that you can do. If you're living in a family where there might be any kind of crisis going on. I honestly, I think that this is great for adults, too.I actually, because I work with kids, this is how I think in my brain. I go into things thinking, “Okay, wait a minute,” Did I cause this? Can I control it? Can I fix it or cure it? No. What can I do?” And so that is, something that really fosters hope in kids and families. And something that we really emphasize when we're working with kids. It's also a resource that we provide right on our website at NACoA.

[00:25:01] Spencer: How have you seen that take root in a kid or a group?

[00:25:05] Peggy: How do I see that in action? Oh, I've seen it in so many ways.

[00:25:11] What comes into my mind is the story,there was a boy I worked with, not too long ago now, he came into our program. He went through the process. He came with his mother, 'cause we always have an adult participate, and his dad was the one that was struggling with addiction. He was struggling with, drinking too much alcohol.

[00:25:34] So Josh came through with his mom. They went through the program. He learnedthat addiction is a disease, it's not his fault. He learned about treatment and recovery. But he also learned about how to talk about his feelings and his problems, and he got to meet other kids and connect with them.

[00:25:53] He actually decided to come through two times because he felt like after a couple years he needed a reboot. For Josh, his dad never got sober. But Josh had an understanding of what was happening with his dad.

[00:26:09] He also knew what were things he could do to take care of himself. He identified those things in group. We had an aftercare group that met weekly. So he knew that, gosh, if he was having feelings, he could maybe write about them or draw a picture. He had safe people in his life that he could go to. He identified a grandmother, and he identified a teacher at school.

[00:26:34] for kids sometimes it's not a parent, 'cause kids are worried about their parents and they don't want to… Sometimes they need to talk to somebody else, and that's fine. And the great thing about Josh was he was very consistent with his self-care.

[00:26:48] The treatment center that I was working at, they have an alumni reunion every year. For the alumni reunion, we have a patient who's a speaker, a family member who's a speaker, and a child who is a speaker, who came through the children's program.

[00:27:04] We asked him to be the speaker, and he said he was very proud. He said, “Absolutely.” He was 11 years old. Wrote up a speech. We helped him with it. Alumni reunion was huge there. He gets up on the podium. We have to have a milk crate so he can step up, 'cause he's a little short. But the cool thing about this was that his dad went with his mom. Mom was active in Al-Anon. Dad's still not working on getting sober, but still went. And Josh got up there and made his speech, and he talked about what he could do to take care of himself, but he also talked about how much he loves his dad, but hates the addiction that has control of his dad. For me, and I think for a lot of people watching that, like what a powerful message. And his dad was there clapping, tears in his eyes. To me that's recovery, right? That's an 11-year-old boy who is… He has hope,and it's powerful.

[00:28:08] Spencer: Goodness.

[00:28:09] Peggy: Yeah

[00:28:09] Spencer: it's hard for () me to imagine at that age, honestly.

[00:28:13] Some of your work at least is in the trenches, shall we say, or working with people who are in the trenches at places like recovery centers that are working with the family.

[00:28:25] Peggy: Yes

[00:28:28] Spencer: How does NACoA reach out to other adults in children's lives? Because maybe the family, the parent, whoever, is not ready,

[00:28:41] Peggy: the kid still needs support and help

[00:28:45] Yes. What we can do, again, I had talked about some resources we provide.We look at, who are people in children's lives? Because one of the things we know is when you look at resilience research, the presence of at least one caring adult in a child's life can make a huge difference in terms of protective factors, leading into adulthood.

[00:29:11] So we've developed resources. We have a parent and caregiver toolkit that you can download right on NACoA's website.We have a toolkit for educators, also for early childhood educators. We have a toolkit for professionals, and really a lot of this is just language on how to talk with kids about addiction.

[00:29:35] I think the mistake adults make is using big words and, making it really complicated when it doesn't need to be. And we do, we are available for training for anybody. I've done just training in spaces in communities where, we know addiction's a problem in a lot of communities. You know, how can you show up as a coach, as a teacher? Schools are one of those places where kids find those safe people. I've had kids that talk about a janitor at school that they really connect with. and what that means is somebody that can, that… Kids need to be seen, heard, and validated, just like we do as adults.

[00:30:20] Yeah, so we help with training. We also help with, sending people tooutside resources. We get a lot of contact from,maybe parents or grandparents who just say, I've got a 12-year-old and I don't know how to talk about this. What can I do or where can I go?” We can help with that as well.

[00:30:42] But we do a lot of professional training. We have a children's program kit, which is very easy to implement. It's set up to do in schools or community centers. We also have, Celebrating Families, which is a full family program that, that we have available and that we offer training for.

[00:31:02] We also developed what's called the Faith Leaders Institute, because we know that, faith communities are also a point of contact for many families, and may be the first point of contact. So how can we equip those folks with tools where they can feel comfortable talking to families about this problem?

[00:31:26] Spencer: When including children in the recovery process in the way that you've been talking about, have you seen that change the outcome for the addict?

[00:31:38] Peggy: Yes. Absolutely. I'll tell you, this is gonna be another story for you, spencer.

[00:31:44] Spencer: stories. I love stories. I'm all about stories

[00:31:47] Peggy: I was working in a children's program and we had two kids come to our program. Their dad was in treatment. The recommendation for him was to stay for 90 days But he was insistent that he was only gonna stay for 30 days because he couldn't be away from his kids that long, they wouldn't like it. This was also a person who'd had numerous relapses and numerous treatments. But he was adamant he was only gonna stay for 30 days.

[00:32:22] Anyway, his children came to our children's program, four-day process. One of the things that we talk about with kids is that, 'cause kids have questions like, “Wow, what's my dad been doing here for a month,” right? “It looks nice. There's a pool, there's a gym, there's a really nice cafeteria. Like, what have they been doing?” So one of the things that we educate kids on is we have an activity that, it's my favorite activity, it's called the bag of rocks, and it's carrying this backpack full of rocks.

[00:32:55] And on the rocks, which they don't find out till the activity is over, there's feelings, right? There's feelings, there's problems, and there's secrets, and if we can let these things out, the bag gets lighter. And we talk with kids about how, gosh, parents started collecting this stuff when they were little kids, and now it's really heavy, and nobody taught them how to make it go away. So what did they do? They took a drink. Guess what? Kinda made it numb. But then they had to pick it back up. It's an activity that goes into why do people start using in the first place, but then also how do they get better? They have to let this stuff out, they have to talk about it, and what do they have to let out and talk about it? Their feelings, their problems, and their secrets.

[00:33:43] So his two children came through, and we ended the four-day process. He participated, and at the end he came to us and said, “You know what? I think I need to stay for 90 days.” He's like, “But I don't know how to tell my children this. They're gonna be really upset.”

[00:33:59] So we said, ” How about we sit with you while you tell your kids that you're gonna stay for 90 days, and we'll help you with this.” Okay. So we sat with him, kids came in, and he just said, “Hey, I really miss you guys, I love you so much, but I've decided that I need to stay here for 90 days.”

[00:34:23] And his son looked at him, and his son was 10, and he said, “Dad, you stay here as long as it takes to get all of those rocks out of your bag. It's okay. You need to do that to keep addiction away.” And then the little sister, who was eight, was like, “Absolutely, Dad. You gotta stay. You gotta do this. It's hard, but you gotta do it.”

[00:34:48] So he stayed in treatment for 90 days when he had been refusing to do it before. So that is huge, and I really believe that what we miss with not including kids, is we miss the number one relapse trigger for parents, and that is the guilt that they carry that they may have impacted their children. And if you don't address that in a safe place,

[00:35:22] Spencer: It's gonna come back up.

[00:35:25] Peggy: It's coming back.

[00:35:27] What a gift to be able to work through that in treatment or to even work through that in whatever program you're going intoand helping your kids to understand what is happening.That's why I'm just like I don't know why every treatment center does not have a children's program. And especially for women in terms of, it's harder for women to go to treatment because they're generally the primary caregivers.

[00:35:56] It's very difficult for parents to say to themselves, I think it's the last little piece of denial that they have, that maybe their disease has impacted their kids. We want to tell ourselves that kids don't know, but they do. They may not know the name of the problem, but they know the behavior.

[00:36:17] Spencer: They know there's a problem.

[00:36:18] Peggy: Yeah.

[00:36:19]

[00:36:19] Spencer: So NACoA has been around for, you said 40 years

[00:36:24] 40 years, 40 plus years. Have you seen a child who went through the education process, whatever you wanna call it, and is now an adult, and is helping children in their life?

[00:36:39] Peggy: It's interesting that you're asking this because it, First of all, I have only been working with NACoA for about three years, but I've been in this field for a long time, and there's just been some amazing, groundbreaking people that have done great work with, NACoA.

[00:36:56] There's Tiann Dayton, there's Patricia Gorman, there's, so many. but what I can say just from my own personal experience, working at NACoA, I get contacted.

[00:37:09] Recently, I was contacted by a young woman who had gone through a, a children's program years ago and was just like, “It was absolutely life-changing.” Her mother had periods of sobriety. She eventually died from her disease, but this young woman was very much like, She had numerous periods of sobriety. “I don't think she would have had that if she hadn't participated in the children's program with me. The healing that I experienced was huge,” and now she wants to continue to spread the word about why this is important.

[00:37:46] I'll never forget this. About five years ago, I ran into a woman who was like, “Oh, my gosh, I went through your children's program with my three boys. I was in treatment.” And then she showed me photos of them, and I'm like, “What?”

[00:37:58] Because they were like 7, 8, and 9 when I worked with them, and now they're, full-grown adults,

[00:38:02] Spencer: Of course they are.

[00:38:03] Peggy: and she said they still talk about it.

[00:38:06] One of, my mentors, Jerry Moe, has a story where,he was at a conference and this man walked up to him and said, “Oh, my gosh, Jerry, how are you?” And he was like, “Who is this?” he said, “I went through your children's program when I was 11 years old.” And he opened up his wallet, and he pulled out a piece of paper that had everybody's name on it who went through the program with him. And he said to Jerry, he said,I started to have struggles with alcohol when I got into my 20s.” he said, “But I remembered from the program that it's very brave to ask for help. And it's important to ask for help. So I asked for help early, and now I'm sober.”

[00:38:56] You know, we kind of look at it like, oh, the goal is to have people never, get addicted in the first place. But,for me, the goal is I want those kids to come into my group, to be with me, to know that they were heard, listened to, validated, and to, to also just know that if there are any problems in their life, that it is okay to ask for help, and it's an important thing to do.

[00:39:22] And I think that's what kids walk away with when they get this kind of help.

[00:39:27] Spencer: As opposed to, you come in, you sit in a room with, as you said, people you don't know, who don't really know how to talk to you. And you take away pretty much nothing or maybe even a negative feeling about some kind of help.

[00:39:44] Peggy: Yeah. I mean, I can only speak like that's what happened for me, and I think my siblings as well.

[00:39:52] Spencer: Yeah, I think it's what happened with my kids too.

[00:39:54] And we just, we didn't know what … You don't know what

[00:39:58] you don't know, as they

[00:39:59] Peggy: exactly. And, I do think it's a natural thing that we wanna protect kids, and it just makes it even more difficult sort of approaching hard topics.

[00:40:12] Spencer: NACoA has, in addition to the program that you're running in, in September, what's the name of it again?

[00:40:18] Peggy: Voices of the Unheard

[00:40:20] Spencer: Voices of the Unheard that you're, promoting in September that has ways to participate that we already talked about. You can find that on the link. On the NACoA website, there are various resources and for parents, for caregivers, for professionals. What is there, and how do people find it?

[00:40:42] Peggy: Okay. A lot of things you can download. A lot of it is language to use talking with kids. If you go to our website and you go to find support, you'll see there's an area that's just for teens. So we have some resourcesfor teens that you can download. You can download the seven Cs. We actually have a teen on there, whose name is Graham, who talks about his experience living with addiction. There's also an app that, teens can download. It's called I Am Me, and it's tools for mental health.

[00:41:21] There's a lot of resources just right on the homepage of our website. There's a section for adults that were affected in childhood by addiction. Um,so that's there as well.And then also parents, caregivers, or a loved one. So we have tools for parents and caregivers. Which is a PDF that you can download. It's very informative.what does a child need to hear?how are families impacted? And then if you go to our programs and training, you can look at the Celebrating Families program, Children's Program Kit, and then just trainings and webinars. We are always available for those.So yeah, there's a lot of tools just directly on our website. And, honestly, I'm always like, if somebody wants to contact me and, talk with me about, how do I talk about this with my child or grandchild? Or even just a professional that needs some support. I'm always open for those conversations. That's a lot of what I do if folks want to just get in touch with me,

[00:42:34] Spencer: they can certainly, email me at feedback@therecovery.show and I can forward it.

[00:42:42] Peggy: Yeah, or just email me directly, which is pmcgillicuddy@nacoa.org

[00:42:48] Spencer: With your permission, I can put that on the website at therecovery.show/462.

[00:42:53] Peggy: Absolutely. Yes

[00:42:55] Spencer: Okay. I will put that there, and then there's a direct connection. Doesn't have to go through me.

[00:42:59] Peggy: Yeah

[00:43:00] Spencer: Okay. Lots of resources and it looks to me like most of what parents and other caregivers might find useful is under this Find Support menu at the top of the page. And for people who wanna dive in deeper, there's the programs and training.

[00:43:23] Peggy: Yes. And then for the campaign, the Voices of the Unheard, I think I included that link as well.

[00:43:30] Spencer: Right. Yes, that will be on the website also.

[00:43:33] I downloaded this tools for parents and caregivers. There's a lot of stuff. It's like 25 pages.

[00:43:39] Peggy: It is. It's a lot. but it's great information, and it was just updated, very recently. So we're always continuing to update.

[00:43:47] Spencer: Awesome. Thank you for telling us about this. This is not something I was ever aware of. I feel like there are gonna be some people listening to the podcast who are like, I wish I had known about this. I'm glad I know about it. I'm so happy you brought it up.”

[00:44:01] Peggy: I hope so.

[00:44:02] Spencer: I, I think I mentioned when we were talking before we actually started recording when we were talking a few days ago, that I get, not infrequently, questions from grandparents who who want to know, What can I do for my grandchildren because their parent, who is my child, is having a problem with alcohol or other addiction and I just don't know what to do?”

[00:44:29] Are there some resources that would be helpful in that situation?

[00:44:33] Peggy: Yes. On our website, the parents/caregivers toolkit that I mentioned, that also includes a grandparents piece. The most important thing I think, 'cause grandparents are like, “Oh my gosh, what can I do?” And I will say the most important thing you can do as a grandparent is to be that safe adult that your grandchildren can come to, where they know that they can talk to you, they feel safe in your home. Just providing that security for them. I think the challenge, for grandparents raising grandchildren is, your role as a grandparent is completely changed. And now you're put into this parent role which you didn't really sign up for. but the importance of grandparents cannot be, cannot be minimized. They make such a difference in kids' lives.

[00:45:33] Spencer: Thank you.

[00:45:34] If somebody is looking for a treatment center that has a good children's program, what kind of resources are available to help them find that?

[00:45:45] Peggy: I'm gonna be honest. There are not many treatment centers that do this. So the ones that do, I can speak to, 'cause I'm pretty familiar with them. the first one would be the Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation. They have children's programs in California, Minnesota, and Colorado. They do excellent work. They work with kids ages 7 to 12. I believe they might also have a separate teen piece. The other one is the Caron Foundation, Kids of Promise. They work with ages 7 to 17. They are in Pennsylvania. Then there's the Brighton Children's Prevention Program in Michigan.

[00:46:31] And then there's also, Eluna, who provides camps. Camp Mariposa. And I'll provide you with all the links to get into those. But there's not many. I just feel like it should be a part of every single treatment center's offering. If you offer a family program, if you say you're doing family work, you need to include the family, not just the adult members of the family.

[00:46:57] Spencer: It sounds like there are a few places that are getting the message.

[00:47:03] Peggy: Oh yeah, and I, think a lot of places get the message.

[00:47:08] If I'm in a group with kids and I finish the group, they're walking out, so proud of their parents, whether or not they're in recovery, they just understand. and kids love their parents. And they get a chance to talk about the amazing stuff, and also the stuff that's hard, ‘ cause that's life and that's families. And

[00:47:32] Spencer: Thank you. You have given me so much stuff here. I will try to distill it onto the webpage so that people can find useful links.

[00:47:41] We'll take a little break here, talk about music, and then we'll come back, with our Lives In Recovery, where we talk about how recovery is working in our daily lives.

Song 1

[00:47:52] Spencer: I asked you to pick songs. You absolutely did. What is our first one?

[00:47:56] Peggy: The first musical selection is Sting, Book of My Life. I really this song becauseI looked it up 'cause I, I was always like, “I- why do I like this song so much?” and it's just a reflection on what it means to look back at the story of our lives. so memories, promises, relationships, losses, victories.

[00:48:20] Apparently it was written during the same period that Sting was reflecting on his own life in his memoir called Broken Music. The song acknowledges that our stories are filled with both joy and pain. Ultimately, it reminds us that while we can make meaning of the chapters behind us, we can't know how the story will end, and there can be peace in accepting that mystery.

[00:48:46] So that's totally up my alley. I've always loved that song.

Our Lives in Recovery

[00:48:59] Spencer: In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery. How have we experienced recovery recently? For those of us in 12-step, we might say, how are we practicing these principles in all our affairs? I'll go ahead. You've been talking a lot.

[00:49:15] A couple of weeks ago now, we got the news that, my brother had a probable cancer diagnosis. That has since been pretty much confirmed from imaging. There's this whole process that they go through to say, “This is what kind of cancer it is, this is what stage it is,” and stuff, and we're in the middle of that. The day after we record this, I'm gonna be driving, he lives about a day away from me. I'm gonna be driving to, to spend a week with him. Providing some company. He says we'll probably be going to medical appointments. It's always helpful, I think, when you're in this kind of a situation to get more than one person in there listening and asking questions.particularly, I think as the patient, you can be really overwhelmed with what's happening and not thinking very well, I think.So I hope to be able to do a little bit of that for him. But what I'm not doing is obsessing over what might happen. I will say the prognosis is not good. We know that.

[00:50:25] We knew that from the moment we heard what kind of cancer it likely was. But there's a lot of pathways from here. And none of us at this point know what path or paths we will all follow, and in particular, what he will follow in his treatment and so on.

[00:50:45] I think one of the first basic principles that at least I learned in recovery and is really emphasized in the recovery meetings and programs that I've been to is live in today. We have these slogans like one day at a time and just for today. What can I do? What do I need to do today? For today to maybe prepare for tomorrow.one of my favorite slogans that's not an official slogan is worry is not a slogan. It is so easy to get into that worry cycle. It has taken some practice over the years to be able to ask myself questions like, “What do I need to do today? What can I do today? And what can't I do today?What can I do to prepare?” And preparation is not the same as worrying because preparation, each step has an end.I can do a certain amount of preparation today, and then there's no more I can do today, and maybe there's more I can do tomorrow.

[00:51:57] Worry, on the other hand, takes me into, and I love this phrase that I heard in meetings, living in the wreckage of the future. When I don't know that the future's gonna be wrecked So that's where I am right now.

[00:52:12] This is where I am, turn my, recovery knob up to 11, to be able to continue to live, to enjoy life. Yesterday I went to a absolutely amazing concert. There were five different artists performing, sometimes together with each other, andlots of great music. One of the singers clearly has some recovery under her belt. A song that particularly stood out to me, I was listening to it in the car on the way up, is called Mean to Me. The question that the, the song asks, although it asks it obliquely because it keeps talking about being mean to her. And then the end of the chorus, the question is, “Why am I so mean… to me?” I heard that song and I thought, “This person's in recovery, I'm sure.”

[00:53:12] Peggy: It's interesting how sometimes you can… I've had that experience

[00:53:16] Spencer: Yeah.

[00:53:16] Peggy: yeah

[00:53:17] Spencer: There, there are certain singers that you're like, “I don't know, but I'm pretty sure.”

[00:53:22] But my point was, I went to this concert.The fact that my brother is ill is sad, but not going to the concert wouldn't help him. And it helps me. It helps me to continue to live my life and to stay out of that, that worry cycle. And then I built a playlist of all the performers who had been at the concert, because I had a long drive home, and it was late at night, and I needed to stay awake.So I built this playlist, and I just shuffled all the different performers' songs together, and it kept me awake all the way home. So yeah, so that's what's going on in my life right now.

[00:54:06] how do you see, recovery working in your life today?

[00:54:11] Peggy: How do I see recovery working in my life today? I am doing work right now that, as you can probably surmise by the amount of time I could talk about this, that is incredibly meaningful to me, and I don't think that I could be doing this if I didn't have recovery in my life today.

[00:54:34] I am incredibly grateful for Al-Anon, AA. My brother has 26 years of sobriety. My mom, as I mentioned, has so many years of sobriety. my family has really benefited, from 12-step programs.

[00:54:53] Spencer: But even just the work that I do, I just can't say enough about it, and I can't,talk enough about it. And so I think that's how recovery is working in my life. Every day, all day.

[00:55:07] Peggy: Every day I wake up and I'm like, You know what? I have two photographs of myself as a kid that I keep right next to my laptop when I'm working, and I look at myself often and I remember, you know? What did I need? What did my brother need? What did my sister need?What did my whole family need? And that's, for me, that's recovery.

[00:55:35] Yeah.

[00:55:36] Spencer: Thank you.

Upcoming

[00:55:38] Spencer: I always try to look forward in the podcast, and I have actually recorded, episodes about the Al-Anon traditions number six and number seven. We're slotting this one in ahead of those, because we want to get it out in time for recovery month, right?

[00:55:55] Peggy: Yes, recovery month for sure

[00:55:58] Spencer: You probably have some thoughts that came up during our conversation here. I know I do.And you can join our conversation here, please. You can leave us a voicemail. You can send us an email with your, feedback, your… Maybe you have further questions. Thank you, Peggy. We have some questions for the listener here that might prompt, you in, in how you respond, how you live this episode's work.

[00:56:31] Looking back at the seven Cs, which start with, “I didn't cause it, I can't control it, and I can't cure it,” and go on about care and communicate, and I don't remember them all. I'm gonna have to add those to my lexicon. But looking back at those seven Cs, what do you still struggle with to believe about your own childhood or about a child in your life right now? I like that kind of question because it helps me to say, “Oh, here's a place where I have some work to do.” Do I struggle with didn't cause it? I have good friends in program who are parents of addicts, alcoholics, and particularly the ones who maybe are alcoholics themselves in recovery, but they're like, “I'm pretty sure had something to do with this.”

[00:57:28] Peggy: Yeah.

[00:57:29] Spencer: That's a place where some discernment, some work with sponsor, with a higher power can be helpful inrelieving that idea that it's all my fault.

[00:57:39] Peggy: Yeah

[00:57:40] Spencer: So there's one question.here's another one, and I love this. Who was the one adult who showed up steadily for you growing up, or who's doing that for a child in your life today? And here's the growth part. What would it take for you to become that person for someone else? Ooh

[00:57:59] Peggy: And then another one. Our third and last question. We're throwing a lot at you here. I will put these questions in the notes at the recovery dot show slash 462, because I don't expect you to remember them. Reflecting back on your own childhood, what did you need most from the adults in your life that you may not have received? And how do you care for that part of yourself now?

[00:58:20] Spencer: I think for people in a program like ACA this is part of, I think, the re-parenting. I haven't done it myself, so I may be wrong, but that's what it feels like to me. What wounds am I still carrying from my childhood, and how am I caring for those, healing them?

[00:58:38] So there's some questions, and I'd love to hear from you. If you have answers for yourself to these questions and you want to share them with us or if you just want to share them with yourself, that's great too. But if people do want to share them with us or if they still have questions, how can they send us their questions and feedback, Peggy?

[00:58:56] Peggy: You can send a voice memo or email to feedback@therecovery.show. Or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at [734] 707-8795. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer.

[00:59:19] The bottom line is we'd love to hear from you, so please share your experience, strength and hope, or your questions about today's topic around NACoA, or any of our upcoming topics including Al-Anon traditions six and seven. If you have a topic you'd like us to talk about, let us know.

[00:59:39] If you would like advance notice for some of our topics so that you can contribute to it, you can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback@therecovery.show. Put email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.

[00:59:55] Spencer, where can our listeners find out more about the Recovery Show?

[01:00:00] Spencer: That would be our website, which you probably have guessed by now, I've said it enough times, is therecovery.show. We have all the information there about the show, which is mostly the notes for each episode, and we're gonna have some pretty extensive notes for this episode. We'll include lots of links, videos for the music that Peggy chose. also there you can find links to some other recovery podcasts and websites

[01:00:24] We'll take a short break before diving into whatever mail we've got this week. And I say mail, whatever.

[01:00:32] Peggy: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[01:00:32] Spencer: voicemail, voice

[01:00:33] memo, et cetera.

Song 2

[01:00:36] Spencer: What is the second song you picked?

[01:00:39] Peggy: Okay, so the second song I picked was Sailing by Christopher Cross. I'll tell you again, it's just one of those songs that has always spoken to me. I grew up on a lake. I'm actually here in northern Maine on that lake right now. This is not where I normally live. I live, in the Toronto, Canada area, but I come here every summer.

[01:01:07] This song is just beautiful, first of all, and it just makes me feel good. I did a little research on what it meant to, the singer, and here's what I found. It's a song about finding a place where the noise of life becomes quiet, which I definitely find when I come to my lake. Inspired by his own childhood experience of escaping difficult times by sailing with a friend, the water becomes a symbol of safety, freedom, and peace. The song also speaks to the healing power of creativity, how music, art, or simply finding something that absorbs us can carry us beyond worry and fear. Ultimately, the song Sailing reminds us that we all need a place, whether real or imagined, where we can let go, feel safe, and reconnect with ourselves.

Listener Feedback

[01:02:12] Spencer: Now it's time to hear your voices.

[01:02:15] Jessica wrote, “I loved that today was an odd job God job in that I stumbled on your show. I'm not a new listener, but did not seek you out today, but somehow found you. I'm a longtime Al-Anon member and love that this program is all about progress and not perfection. I'm finally to the point that I do not judge myself for slips and lapses in my program.

[01:02:35] What a relief. So grateful for this program and your work, Jessica.”

[01:02:41] And Jessica includes this quote, which, yeah, we've had it before here, but it's always good to be reminded. “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as if nothing is a miracle. The other is as if everything is a miracle.”

[01:02:55] Thanks for writing, Jessica, and I'm glad you found us again.

[01:02:59] Jason wrote in response to episode 460 with Michele. He writes ” Spencer and Michele, I wanted to extend my gratitude to your recent guest, Michele. I listened to her beautiful story of hope with tears in my eyes as I went on my daily walk this morning. What a powerful story of hope she shared with us.

[01:03:20] I think the thing that struck me most about her story was her resilience and courage throughout the journey of her life. I hope that I am able to have a life that mirrors these virtues as I continue through my own journey over the coming years. I'm a grateful longtime listener and greatly appreciate your service and the continuing legacy of this podcast.

[01:03:39] Jason in Indiana.”

[01:03:42] Thank you, Jason. I did forward your email to Michele, and she was grateful to receive it.

[01:03:50] Joy writes, “Hello, Spencer. I began listening to your podcast five years ago when I stumbled upon it searching for uplifting podcasts for friends and family affected by alcoholism, and I am so thankful I did. Thank you for your service and the access to healing that you're providing for so many through your podcast.

[01:04:08] I'm wondering if an episode has been done or can be done on family recovery. I do service with Alateen as an Amias and group sponsor, and in our area in the Northeast, attendance for Alateen is dwindling and has been for quite some time. We talk often about the family disease in Al-Anon, and I am curious why more youth do not have access to or awareness of Alateen.

[01:04:31] In my limited experience, I see youth come to a meeting, share openly and excitedly about their experience, strength, and hope, and then never return or seldom return. My children attend Alateen weekly, and while we currently have no active drinking in our household, and while some of our kids were too young to remember our loved one's drinking, they still benefit from attending Alateen, growing their own awareness of the disease of addiction and how to have healthy relationships with themselves and others.

[01:04:58] We currently are a family in recovery with all of us working our respective programs to heal from this family disease continually. However, this does not seem to be the norm in our area. It's interesting to me that in the history of Al-Anon, the Al-Anon family groups worked closely with AA. If you have a loved one in AA, you are likely in Al-Anon, and if you had a family, your kids were attending Alateen.

[01:05:21] Now, at least in our area, I'm seeing a lot of ignorance in AA about Al-Anon and about the family disease in general. I hear a lot of emphasis in Al-Anon about the family disease, but youth are not attending Alateen. There's a disconnect somewhere, and it's depriving our families of the opportunity of full thriving and healing together.

[01:05:40] Are there any episodes on your podcast discussing family recovery? Would you be willing to do one? Again, thank you for the pathway to healing that you're providing. Grateful for all that you do.

[01:05:50] Take care. Joy S. in New Jersey.”Hopefully, this episode is one that discusses family recovery, and as Peggy emphasized, full integration of children into recovery in recovery centers, treatment centers is rare, and that NACoA is working to increase that, which is cool.

[01:06:17] Another thing that is part of their mission is to spread awareness of the recovery that's available for the whole family and, in particular, for the children in the family.So there's work to be done. They're doing some of it, but we could all do some of our part.

[01:06:35] I did find a few episodes out of the past four hundred and sixty whatever that might include something about family recovery or children recovery. Number three hundred forty-eight, Teen Depression and Self-Harm. This is from the perspective of the parent who's using her program tools to help her daughter, with recovery from mental health issues. Yeah, so a little bit there.

[01:07:04] Episode three hundred forty-two, Co-Parenting with an Alcoholic, really talks about the challenges when one of the parents is still in their addiction, in trying to provide support and hopefully some recovery to the children or child.

[01:07:22] Genevieve, Together We Can Make It, episode 301. She talks about her experience in Alateen and how she is now giving back as an AMAIS.

[01:07:32] Episode 243, Recovery with Young Children with Megan, and also shares from some listeners. it's probably worth a listen.

[01:07:41] And The Family in Recovery, episode 230. This was not one with me. It was a recording from a recovery conference, I think members of a family who are all in recovery. So that- that's also probably worth a listen.

[01:07:57] But that's six episodes in 12 years and not really focused on family recovery, most of them. So yeah, I'd say it's time to do that. As usual, I'll put out a call, Who would like to step up and co-host such an episode.

[01:08:16] You also talk about declining Alateen attendance. In my area are also struggling, not necessarily with declining Alateen attendance, but with just having Alateen at all. As I recall, Some years back, there were three Alateen meetings in my immediate area, and one by one, those failed. I'm not sure in one case why. I know in one case it was just lack of attendance, and then the pandemic, killed the other one.

[01:08:50] We now have one that is starting to get going. Has one regular attendee and some… At least from what I see, it's happening at the same time as one of my Al-Anon meetings. So I see one young person who's a regular attendee and very excited about it. And then there have been some other, youngsters who have come, but I'm not sure whether they're actually coming back. Just the other night, in one of my Al-Anon meetings, a parent was saying that she wished that there was something available for her child, but the child's only 10, and Alateen doesn't seem like that would include a 10-year-old.

[01:09:34] I went to her after the meeting was over and said, “Actually, at the local meeting, there is a 10-year-old who's a regular attendee, so I think your child would be welcome in that meeting.” Hopefully we'll see that one showing up.

[01:09:48] I see a number of things in that particular case and in general. One is just getting the word out. You need people who are willing to go to meetings, both Al-Anon and AA, and say, “Hey, there's an Alateen meeting. If you have children, they might benefit from coming to this Alateen meeting.”

[01:10:09] For many children, an issue is transportation. If you're an Al-Anon member and you wanna drive them, or if you're an AA member and you wanna drive them, the meeting that I'm thinking of is co-located concurrent with an Al-Anon meeting, but there is no co-located AA meeting. That has been a benefit in the past when it was an Alateen meeting at the same time in the same location where there was both an Al-Anon and an AA meeting. It's a lot easier for the kids to get there. It's a lot easier for whichever parent wants the kid to have Alateen to get there.so transportation's an issue.

[01:10:49] Okay, well, there's a tornado warning, so I'm gonna shut down for the moment, and we'll be back later.

[01:10:58] I'm back. That was somewhat exciting. We did not have a tornado, but we had some pretty high winds, a bunch of trees down, flooding in the streets, all kind of fun and games. So I spent some time helping out with some of those issues in the neighborhood, and now I'm back. I was responding to Joy's long email. Long and full of stuff,not just long.

[01:11:24] The other thing that Joy mentioned is that it seems in her area, she says there's a lot of ignorance in AA about Al-Anon and about the family disease in general. I find in my community, and I recognize that it's only my community that I know about, there are many AA members who find their way to Al-Anon and find value in it, and then bring their understanding of that value back to AA.And I feel like the AA community here has a reasonable awareness of Al-Anon. Now, I certainly run into AA members, particularly, newer AA members who are not aware of Al-Anon, who sometimes show up at one of my Al-Anon meetings looking for AA and not understanding that they're different.

[01:12:13] But I know several people who are in Al-Anon because their AA sponsor said, “You need to go to Al-Anon because you've got so many Al-Anon issues that you're trying to talk about here in AA.” just my experience here.I've also participated in some AA conventions with Al-Anon participation where, in a couple of cases, the AA and Al-Anon parts of the program were quite integrated. The only sort of separation was we had Al-Anon speakers and AA speakers. But there were joint workshops and that sort of thing. And other conferences of that ilk, there's, like, separate tracks for AA workshops and Al-Anon workshops, and probably you get mostly AA people in the AA workshops and mostly Al-Anon people in the Al-Anon workshops.

[01:13:00] so it varies. It certainly varies. and I wish that there was a better awareness of the value of Al-Anon and of the family disease. I think the big book touches on that very lightly, because I don't think there was that awareness in 1935 when that book was written.

[01:13:20] I'd be interested to hear from AA members who are listening to this podcast, what is your experience? Of course, you're listening to this podcast, so you probably already have some experience with Al-Anon or some interest in Al-Anon.But maybe you can reflect on what the general feeling is in your AA groups. I'd be interested to hear. Thanks, Joy, for, wow, prompting all that thought. A lot in there.

[01:13:50] Carla wrote a couple of emails. First, she had written in a previous episode about the jarring loudness of the transition music, which I had noticed, but it didn't bother me as much, as it obviously has bothered some other people.

[01:14:09] I published an episode where I had done some work to reduce the loudness of that music, and she writes back, ” Hi, Spencer. Thank you so much for being a safe person to talk to. What I mean by that is thank you for receiving feedback and for making adjustments to accommodate people like me who have super sensitive hearing. The newest episode where you brought the volume down on the transition music was refreshingly non-distracting in terms of the volume of the music.”

[01:14:36] Thank you, Carla, and I'm glad that that worked. And she says, “Your recovery is showing,” with a smiley face and a pair of praying hands. Thank you, Carla.

[01:14:47] And then, I got another email, 'cause it's been a little while since I've done listener feedback, from Carla. She said, “I heard you mention on one of the episodes that someone was looking for online meetings of Al-Anon. There is an Al-Anon app that I used for a while to find lots and lots of online meetings and wanted you to know that it exists.”

[01:15:05] And I actually have that on my phone. I have not really used it for that purpose or really for any of the purposes. It was like, “Well, I've got an Al-Anon app. I should download it, find out about it.” The Al-Anon app is described on the Al-Anon website. I will put a link to the mobile app page, in the show notes at therecovery.show/462.

[01:15:33] There's gonna be a lot of links in those notes, I'll tell you. I have to group them or something.

[01:15:38] The heading on the page says, “Al-Anon Family Groups, the official mobile app of the Al-Anon Family Groups. Al-Anon's first official mobile app released,” and you can download it from the Apple App Store. You can get it on Google Play. Apparently on Apple devices, it works on a phone or on a tablet, and probably will not work on a Mac laptop or desktop. The App Store says it has not been tested. I'm like, “Yeah, probably doesn't work.” But if you have different experience, again, let us know.

[01:16:10] What is it? It's a social app for Al-Anon members to connect with one another to share our experience, strength, and hope. It's a new platform for electronic meetings. It's a way to connect with your Al-Anon family in private chats. A place to create and update a digital Al-Anon journal. And a place to stay informed on the latest information from the World Service Office.

[01:16:32] And then it says, “What is it not?” It is not a face-to-face meeting list. I think I have to add to that, what is it not? It also does not list electronic meetings other than those available in the app, and there's a lot of meetings available in the app. I'm gonna look right now.

[01:16:49] Give me a sec. I just hit the Meetings tab, and it is showing me three meetings on the screen that are available right now. We're in the middle of one of them, one of them's just starting, one of them's gonna start in about an hour. So there's a lot of meetings,and it could be a really valuable resource, for finding meetings. It's all in one place. It's very convenient. You find the meeting, you tap the Join tab, and boom, you're in there. So that's cool.and I should give it a try, but not right now while I'm reading listener feedback.

[01:17:23] So thanks for that reminder, Carla, and I hope somebody finds it useful. Uh, again, there'll be a link in the show notes.

[01:17:32] Diane wrote, “I re-listen to so many of your podcasts. I was re-listening to one with you and Eric B., where Eric talks about one of your podcasts on motives. Which one was he talking about? I can't find it. I think the one I was listening to where it was mentioned was letting go, enabling or empowering. I don't actually know. I re-listen to so many. Thanks so very much.” Diane, first, I am just delighted that you find value in the podcasts, that you listen to them over and over. And I know Eric will be also excited about that.

[01:18:08] So I'm not sure what episode he's referring to. He usually mentions episodes we did together, and I can't find an episode that we did that has motive in the title or motive in the show notes.I don't have transcripts for enough of the episodes to be able to search for motive in the actual transcript of the episode. Maybe somebody else will listen and will say, “Oh, that's what she found,” and will be able to remember long enough to send me a note so that I can share it out. I did find a solo episode I did by myself, number 401, titled What's My Motive? So that could be it. there's a couple other possibilities that I did with Eric. One is Inaction and Reaction, and that could be about motive when you're reacting or deciding not to act. That's very possible. And number 347, If I Am Not the Problem, There Is No Solution, and I don't know why I picked that one out. It just felt like that, that might be, another one where we spend a little bit of time talking about what's my motive.

[01:19:11] So there you are. Maybe that's helpful. And maybe somebody will be able to actually point us out to it. Maybe Eric. Hey, Eric, do you know? Just let me know.

[01:19:21] And last, but certainly not least, I got an email from a musician, artist named Mad Hugs.

[01:19:32] He writes, “Spencer, will you please share this song link from Spotify for Teleportationism somewhere on the site? This link will never change. Thanks for what you do.”Teleportationism is the transition music that I've been using, mostly, since, the middle of 2013. There are some episodes that have different music in there as I was trying different things out, but I really, I came back to that one, because, well, I like it. It gives me a feeling of sort of moving forward. and since it doesn't have lyrics, I can fade it in and out underneath talking in, in some segments of the episode. It works very well for that, and it has a nice fade-out at the end.

[01:20:14] I put that link in the About The Recovery Show page. If you go to therecovery.show/about, you will find it there, under heading Music, where I talk about the music and also I made a link to the Spotify account where I've made playlists for many of the episodes. Not all of them, but it is what it is.

[01:20:37] Also on that page, there's a little bit of information about the show, obviously, 'cause it's called About the Recovery Show. And there's some information about how many people listen and where they listen, because some people have asked me about that, and it was possible for me to get that information, so I did. That's all there on the About page.

[01:20:56] Thanks, Mad Hugs, for sending me the link and for providing that music, for us to use in the podcast.

[01:21:05] And that is it for today. Talk to you again soon.

Thank you, Peggy

[01:21:11] Spencer: Peggy, I know I've said this, but again, thank you, for bringing your experience with NACoA and with helping children of families with addiction and alcoholism to us here today. I learned a whole lot.

[01:21:28] Peggy: Good. I just, I enjoy talking about this, right? So

[01:21:33] Spencer: I could tell

[01:21:34] Peggy: yeah

Song 3

[01:21:35] Spencer: What's your third song?

[01:21:37] Peggy: Okay, my last song is A Thousand Beautiful Things. It's by Annie Lennox, she was in. Eurythmics. When I listen to this song, I'm just like, “Oh my God,” the world is an amazing place. So apparently this song she wrote as a reflection on gratitude. It's about consciously noticing the simple things that remind us that we are alive, like breathing, a heartbeat, opening our eyes, rather than ignoring the pain or struggle, embracing the whole life, the good and the difficult, and the joy and the loss. And at its heart, it reminds us that resilience begins with simply looking for the beautiful things that are still there. Which is why I love it.

Outro

[01:22:31] Spencer: Thank you for listening, and please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them, too. If we did not talk about a problem you are facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding, love and peace grow in you one day at a time.