Intro

[00:00:01] Spencer: How did your group choose a name? Is that name welcoming and also descriptive of your group?

[00:00:08] Welcome to episode 451 of the Recovery Show. This episode is brought to you by Charlotte and Diana. They used the donation button on our website. Thank you Charlotte and Diana for your generous contributions. This episode is for you.

[00:00:22] We are friends and family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction. Understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:39] Mary: Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program. During this show, we will share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you'll find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:01:01] Spencer: My name is Spencer. I am your host today. Joining me today is Mary. Welcome back to the Recovery Show. Mary, you've been here looks like three times before. Episode 4 25 where we talked about shortcomings and self-acceptance is the most recent one.

Why This Topic Matters

[00:01:17] Spencer: Today our topic is gonna be a little different than a usual recovery show. I want to talk about changes in Al-Anon policy that are being made, have been made

[00:01:30] Mary: are being discussed

[00:01:32] Spencer: yes, are being discussed at some length. And we're gonna contribute some words to that discussion,

[00:01:38] Mary: Hopefully.

[00:01:39] Spencer: about how groups are named and what names are acceptable according to Al-Anon World Service policy.

Naming Policy Background

[00:01:49] Spencer: A little bit of background here. In 2021, I guess roughly 20 20, 20 21 with the pandemic and a whole bunch of new online groups being created, , there were a lot of new groups coming along, and the staff at the World Service Office said they had observed a trend relating to groups that identify themselves with specific participant focus, and including that focus in their suggested group name. The policy at that time in the service manual said.

[00:02:25] Having an appropriate group name is very important because it is included in local and online meeting directories and may be a potential member's first impression of Al-Anon. The group's name should be inviting to all and reflect Al-Anon principles. A group's name should not imply affiliation with any other 12 step group, self-help group, commercial venture, agency, religious group, rehabilitation facility, or other outside enterprise, even if the name is associated with its location. E.g., the blank Church, Al-Anon Family Group or the Blank Hospital, Al-Anon Family Group. And it says, the WSO will review proposed group names for adherence to Al-Anon principles.

Young People Group Example

[00:03:07] Spencer: I remember, back in the mid two thousands, a group of younger Al-Anon members at my home group wanted to start a group that was focused on welcoming younger people into Al-Anon. I believe they were going to call it something like the Young People's Group. And the office came back and said, eh, we don't think so. That feels restrictive. So they chose a different name that still kind of expressed their desire to have a meeting for young people. They called it Young at Heart. Which then is welcoming essentially to anybody who feels they're young, even if they're biologically older. So that was the first I had heard that certain names were not going to be acceptable, Wouldn't be registered with the World Service, which means they won't show up in the online meeting finder and that sort of thing.

[00:04:08] Mary: Before we dive in, may I just say to everyone that listens to this wonderful podcast, that even though this topic may seem quite random and this episode may feel more like a business meeting than a regular Al-Anon meeting where you know there's a speaker or people share. I just wanna encourage people to hang in there because as I've come to discover, like business meetings are actually quite important and good for the health of the group. So, if you've been in program for a little while, or even if you're new and you want to find out how Al-Anon service structure works, or what are the latest topics that are being discussed in the program as it relates to the organization of the program and the policies, and what the things that are in the service manual, please just listen in. You might actually get some nuggets in this episode that you aren't expecting.

[00:05:05] Also if you care about the diversity in the program there, there being meetings for men, women, L-G-B-T-Q, young at heart people or young people, as Spencer said, that's a lot of us and almost all of us. Parents, children. Exactly. So if you care about those kinds of meetings, this episode is relevant, so please hang in there.

Inclusivity Versus Safety

[00:05:27] Spencer: In 2022, there was basically, it looks like it was a report out from the policy committee.

[00:05:34] Mary: Yeah.

[00:05:35] Spencer: And there's some comments in here. The gist of most of the comments is, we're supposed to be welcoming, we're supposed to be inclusive. And if you put something like men or women or parents in a group name, then, that might be perceived as not welcoming, not inclusive. All of this stuff, all of the World Service Conference summaries is available on the Al-Anon website. And if you really wanna dig in, it's all there and you can go back and read all of them.

[00:06:12] There was a comment that jumped out at me as being the minority opinion, really. And when we talked about the concepts of service, back in 2015, there is a concept of service that says, basically it's important that the minority is heard. This person starts out, I have mixed emotions about this topic. When I first came to Al-Anon, I did not look like or have similar experiences to most members, but I stayed because I related to the feelings shared. In time, and through the fourth step, I began to realize that I'm gay. I felt very vulnerable and unsafe at that time. So I sought out gay friendly meetings. They helped me feel safer as I began to accept myself and slowly be more open to others. There's more in here, but they conclude with, for those who never felt they belonged anywhere, it can seem like further proof that they don't, if we eliminate all identifying elements in group names.

[00:07:11] I read that and I'm like, yeah, I have mixed feelings about this. I see, yes, we wanna be welcoming, but some people, and I gotta say I have heard so many male Al-Anon speakers say, I came to my first Al-Anon meeting and it was all women. I didn't feel like it was for me.

[00:07:34] Mary: right.

[00:07:36] Spencer: I think the question of being welcoming is more than name.

[00:07:41] Mary: exactly.

[00:07:42] Spencer: My wife is in another program, and she goes to, I think, pretty much exclusively meetings that are identified as women's meetings, because she feels more comfortable there.

[00:07:55] Mary: Yeah, exactly. The very first meeting that I ever went to, I picked that meeting because it was a women's meeting and I felt that I would have a little bit higher chance that I would feel safe there. I had no idea what to expect, I'd only heard of AA, I'd never heard of Al-Anon. I didn't know what to expect. And the fact that it was a women's only meeting, it might have not said that, it probably didn't say that. It just said Women's Brown Bag lunch or something like that. And the fact that it had the word women's in it, I was like, okay, this meeting is for women. That was one of the reasons I picked it is because I was looking for an additional level of safety, that I probably wouldn't have felt if it was a co-ed meeting.

[00:08:39] Spencer: Yeah. This is one of the things that makes me be like, I don't know.

[00:08:46] Mary: And it's okay. It's okay that we don't know, and I think maybe our conversation will help us both understand and expand our understanding of what does it mean to be welcoming to all? What is the purpose of Al-Anon, what is the significance of the name of a meeting? And also what is Al-Anon world service policy and does that policy enhance safety and enhance the program so that it is welcoming to all. Or maybe does it do the opposite?

[00:09:24] Because, like the example that you shared with the young people's meeting? Yeah. On the whole, Al-Anon is very old. I'm turning 50 this year. You're just a little bit older, Spencer.

[00:09:39] Spencer: Yeah,

[00:09:40] Mary: I can understand that a young person when they come, they may feel like, oh, maybe this program is for old people. So maybe they want to be able to find meetings that have a little bit more younger people so that they can talk about the issues that are relevant in their life. Because life stage is a real thing. And the things that matter to you when you're 50 is different from things that matter to you when you're 80.

[00:10:04] Spencer: Yeah. And the experiences that you have that you might want to find recovery from are also different if you're married to the alcoholic addict, if you are the parent of the alcoholic addict, if you're the child of the alcoholic addict. And, being able to find, and we do tell people, we say, you might not find that this meeting meets your needs, but there are a lot of meetings. There's a lot of availability of meetings now, especially with the online meetings. Try different meetings because hopefully you will find the one that really meets your current needs. And that might change.

History Of Focus Labels

[00:10:42] Spencer: But right now, I wanna look a little bit more here at what I understand of the history. I just tonight was reading one of these comments, and it said this has been, and I assume when they say this, it means group naming or putting identifiers in group names, has been a topic of policy discussion since the 1970s. Okay. Al-Anon's been around for almost 75 years and they've been talking about how do we name groups for 50 of those 75 years. So it's not an easy question.

[00:11:15] Mary: No.

[00:11:16] Spencer: It's not a new problem. It's only come to light because, of a policy change that was made in 2024 that was partially reversed in 2025, and we'll talk about that.

[00:11:29] The other thing that I note in the history. Prior to 2010, when you registered a new group with Al-Anon, apparently they had some check boxes or something where you could, talk about participant, I think they called it focus. And that would be things like women, men, children, parents, LGBT. And in 2010 they said, no, we don't like this. Let's not do that. Let's put it in the name.

[00:11:54] Mary: Yeah.

[00:11:54] Spencer: Okay. So actually in 2011, the guidance to the World Service Office was, if somebody wants to register a meeting that's focused at, say, women participants, they should put women in the name of the group. This is what Al-Anon was telling people for over a decade, since 2011.

[00:12:13] It sounds like it's been back and forth, they did put the group focus, or now it's called participants, back in because people said, no, we really like having this. And it's particularly useful in the online search. It used to be hidden in the online search. You had to click on like advanced search to see it. And one of the things that they did in quick response to the sort of uproar about, Hey, why can't I put women in my group name, or men or parents or whatever, was to make that selection visible all the time. The idea is, well, if you're interested in finding a women's meeting, you can check the women's box. If you're interested in finding a men's meeting, check the men's box.

[00:12:58] There was a groundswell of opinion from the groups, and I'm gonna come back to the concepts of service where the first concept of service says the ultimate authority for Al-Anon resides in the groups. So they're taking that and they're saying, oh, wow. Maybe we made this decision a little hastily without really going out and asking what, the people think.

2024 Policy Wording Shift

[00:13:22] Spencer: So in 2024, they changed the

[00:13:26] Mary: policy, the wording of the policy.

[00:13:29] When I actually first heard about this policy change, I was like, oh, it doesn't seem like that big a deal. But when the World Service Office started implementing it, and then I took a closer look, I did realize, first of all, there are a lot more words in the policy and there are some buzzwords that to me, signal that they're gonna be a little bit more strict about what kinds of group names get approved. For anybody that wants to follow along, this is in your service manual pages 85 through 86.

[00:14:01] Spencer: yeah. Let me just clarify. It's in the revisions. If you've got a printed copy of the 2022 to 2025 service manual, you will not see this wording. You have to download revised pages from the Al-Anon dot org internet.

[00:14:19] Mary: Yes, that is absolutely correct because changes to the service manual happen pretty regularly at almost every World Service conference it seems. And so whatever updates they get, they provide substitute pages that you can, put in inside your, service manual. 'cause they only get printed every once every three years.

[00:14:36] Spencer: Future Spencer here jumping in. They have now published the 2026 to 2029 service manual, and in that manual, this is on pages 84 to 85.

[00:14:51] Mary: At the beginning it says, when choosing a Al-Anon or Alateen group name, consider the welcoming and comforting focus of tradition five. And then later on it says it's vital that group names are inviting and attractive, and that they quote, avoid public controversy. So that is a new phrase that was not in this policy before.

[00:15:13] And then if you go to the next page, there's a lot of principles that are now being called out. Instead of having this generic, we adhere to Al-Anon principles. There's a bunch of principles that are called out. And one is that, Allon does not affiliate with or endorse. The last one they have on their list is that Al-Anon has no opinion on outside issues, which is tradition 10. And then the public controversy phrase also is from tradition 10, which states that Al-Anon family groups have no opinion on outside issues. Hence, our name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

[00:15:49] So it seems, just in the sheer number of more words and more quote Al-Anon spiritual principles that they put into the policy. Based on those things, you know, is how the implementation changed.

Implementation Backlash And Pause

[00:16:06] Mary: I for one, did not have that many problems with the new policy because it definitely did not say okay, from now on we're not gonna allow the word women or men or people of color, or L-G-B-T-Q in meeting names. It didn't say that.

[00:16:20] So when the World Service Office started implementing the new policy in a way that did not allow those community identifiers in the meeting name anymore, that's when a lot of members and groups got upset. And also there were already so many existing meetings. There are over a thousand meetings that already have these quote community identifiers in their meeting name.

[00:16:48] So now there's like, two tiers of meetings. If you named your meeting, if you started your meeting before this date, then you could keep that name, you know, women's brown bag lunch. But if you tried to register that same meeting after this policy was implemented, then all of a sudden you could not have that meeting name.

[00:17:09] So a bunch of people got upset and they wrote to the policy committee. And then in 2025, in April when they had their World Service Conference, they voted on a motion that kind of put a pause on the implementation of the policy in this way. So it did not change the policy. It did not say World Service can no longer do this in the future. It just said, okay, let's just pause the implementation in this way, until we meet again in April, 2026.

[00:17:40] Spencer: So the implementation approach that was approved by the policy committee in July, 2024. The 2024 World Service Conference, that was April. They voted to change the wording of the policy. The policy committee then looked at that and said, okay, World Service office staff, here's how we would like you to implement this change in policy.

[00:18:09] Mary: It actually happened the other way. The World Service staff said, okay, we have this new policy now we want to implement it this way, and

[00:18:17] Spencer: Okay, I'm reading text here from 2025 and says the implementation approach approved by the policy committee in July, 2024, by which staff were directed to reject proposed names for new groups or name changes for existing groups that included community identifiers. So they went beyond the wording that the conference had approved and said, here's how we want you to implement this new policy. I mean, that's, that's what they have to do. They have to give the folks in the World Service office some direction, so that they know how to do their job. And then, there were lots of rumors floating around, let's put it that way. For those of us who were paying attention at least, and one of those was that existing groups were gonna have to change their names.

[00:19:12] And that was never intended.

[00:19:15] Mary: Right, there was some things that came out. We get these things called the policy updates from the policy committee. It's usually a part of the updates from the board. It's in the, in the Loop. That's the name of the newsletter . In one of those it said, oh, this policy, we're only gonna implement it for new names, but we're gonna encourage everyone, meaning existing groups too, to also adhere. So that's what it said. It didn't say we are going to enforce this from now on, but it said, in the spirit of, we want everyone to aspire, to, to, what is it called?

[00:19:55] To obey the unenforceable.

[00:19:57] Spencer: Yeah. Right. Obedience to the unenforceable. Yeah.

Meeting Finder Filters

[00:20:02] Spencer: I was looking at the meeting search thing, and the search for in-person meetings doesn't have an option to type in any name of the group. You just have to say where you are, where you wanna search, and and then you can check things like what language, which we have options of English, Spanish, and French. So this is interesting. Okay. So let's say we've got a Spanish speaking meeting. Is that welcoming to people who don't speak Spanish? Well, no.

[00:20:32] Okay. What day is it? Does it have childcare? Is it fragrance free? Is it handicap access, et cetera. Is it smoking permitted? Wow. I wonder how many Al-Anon meetings still permit smoking. I would guess just about none now. And then there's this participant, families, friends and observers welcome that used to be called Open. Families and Friends Only. That used to be called Closed.

[00:20:55] And then we have adult children, parents, beginners, young adults, LGBTQIA plus, people of color, men and women, are the participant selectors. If I search with the filter of women, I only find three groups, and they're all labeled electronic, but they're also have addresses, so that's interesting.

[00:21:15] Mary: If I search for women's meetings in my area, I get a long list. If I search for men's, I also get not as longer, but some meetings.

[00:21:27] Spencer: In my general area, which actually is including most of Detroit, there are two men's meetings, both of which say men's in the name. The Monday night. Men's stag in my city has been around for a long time. And it not only says men's, it also says stag.

[00:21:48] Mary: Yeah.

[00:21:48] Spencer: And then there's one in downtown Detroit, Monday Night Men's, they're both Monday. That's interesting.

[00:21:54] Mary: I just found a young adult recovery meeting near me. So I guess at some point they did allow the word young adult.

Changes in recent years

[00:22:02] Spencer: Again, this thing that they did in 2011. The World Service Office advised groups seeking to focus on specific participant designations to add the label to their group's name. So starting in 2011, they were actually advising them to do that. The young people's meeting that I was talking about was started before 2011.

[00:22:24] Mary: Yeah,

[00:22:24] Spencer: The implementation of this group naming policy has apparently gone back and forth over the years.

[00:22:32] Mary: The whole issue of participant types or attendee types, a participant focus that has gone back and forth.

[00:22:39]

World Service Conference decisions

[00:22:39] Spencer: Anyway, in 2025, there was this uproar as it were, and I remember we invited our area delegate to one of my meetings, because there were a lot of people in that meeting that were concerned about the change as we understood it. So they said, okay, we need to put the brakes on for a little bit. At the 2025 World Service Conference, they voted on a motion that states, allow group names to continue to include identifiers, including men, women, et cetera, et cetera. Okay. With the understanding that in keeping with Traditions three and five, the groups will welcome anyone affected by someone else's drinking until the 2026 World Service Conference to allow more discussion.

[00:23:22] Mary: To allow world service conference structure areas to discuss the implementation of the 20 24 World Service Conference approved choosing a group names policy. So it's basically saying they're giving time for areas to talk about it so that they can vote and or talk about it again in 2026. And that's important because, not everybody knows Al-Anon is kind of like a democracy, and our delegates are kind of like our senators and they are the only ones that have voice and vote, on your behalf, at World Service Conference. And I think that's why I reached out to you because it's important that people know what's gonna happen in a months here.

[00:24:05] I actually just talked to the delegate from Northern California and the agenda for World Service conference has not been released yet, so it's a little bit uncertain what exactly is gonna happen at World Service Conference. Are they gonna just talk about it again? Are they gonna extend this motion to stop the implementation? Are they gonna change the policy? Are they gonna create some task forces? Like we don't really know what's gonna happen, but I do know that in 2025, the policy committee got hundreds and hundreds of appeal letters about this from different groups.

[00:24:40] I believe it was like close to 200 appeal letters. And they talked about this issue for all three days, which is like something that they haven't done since, I think the process to become Alateen AMAIS thing happened in 2005 or something like that. Anyway, this is a hot topic and will continue to be a hot topic this year, I believe.

[00:24:59] Spencer: In the consideration, I think in 2022, and then in the revised policy, they talked about traditions.

[00:25:08] Tradition three, the only requirement for membership is that there be a problem of alcoholism in relative or friend. Tradition four, every group should be autonomous except in matters affecting another group or Al-Anon or AA as a whole. Tradition one, our common welfare should come first. Personal progress for the greatest number depends on unity. And tradition five, each Al-Anon family group has but one purpose to help families of alcoholics, by welcoming and giving comfort to families of alcoholics. And they're like, okay, we need to keep these traditions in mind.

How Al Anon Decisions Work

[00:25:51] Spencer: But when we start talking about how decisions get made, then we get into the other legacies, which is the concepts of service, of which there are also 12. I mentioned the first one. The ultimate responsibility and authority for Al-Anon World Services belongs to the Al-Anon groups. At the beginning, when they wanted to make a decision, apparently they would actually send out a letter to all of the groups that were registered and asked them to, send back their thoughts, their opinions, their decision.

[00:26:17] At the beginning there was, I think 80 groups, 50 to 80 groups. So this was feasible. It quickly became infeasible. In 1961, they did a trial world service conference where they brought representatives from, I guess I don't know how organized, the areas and everything was yet by then, but they brought in representatives and so we are in theory, democratic. In practice. There's a lot of delegation going on.

[00:26:50] Mary: Right.

[00:26:51] Spencer: So the second concept of service says the Al-Anon family groups have delegated complete administrative and operational authority to their conference. If you look at the links of service, and I should probably go find a diagram of the links of service and put it in the show notes here.

[00:27:12] Mary: Upside down triangle

[00:27:13] Spencer: The upside down triangle at the top are the groups. The groups elect, group representatives, which carry the will, the understanding, the opinion of the group to.

[00:27:26] Mary: Area and district. Yeah.

[00:27:28] Spencer: Although the actual voting happens at the area meeting by the group representative, which in my opinion has two main jobs. One is to listen to the group, and carry their understanding of the group's opinion to the next level. And to bring back to the group the discussions and decisions that were made at the levels outside the group.

[00:27:52] Mary: Correct.

[00:27:53] A lot of meetings don't even have a group rep,

[00:27:55] Spencer: I know.

[00:27:57] Mary: So if your meeting doesn't have one, I urge you to become it so that you can get plugged in about these things.

[00:28:03] Spencer: anybody can go to the area assembly.

[00:28:05] Mary: Yes.

[00:28:06] Actually I think that depends on the area.

[00:28:09] Not all areas allow that.

[00:28:10] Spencer: really.

[00:28:12] Mary: I think so. Yeah.

[00:28:12] Spencer: Certainly in area 27 where I am, which is the lower Peninsula of Michigan, they welcome any Al-Anon members, but only group representatives can vote.

[00:28:23] Mary: Right

[00:28:24] Spencer: But everybody can have a voice and everybody can receive what's being given, what's being brought to us. The assembly, every three years, elects a new delegate. The delegate goes to the World Service Conference. If I look at the vote count on this motion, there were, I think 90 people voting.

[00:28:45] Mary: Right. There's 68 delegates. 'cause there's 68 areas in the United States, including Puerto Rico, Bermuda, Canada. They're all. In the same World Service Conference. And then the GEA, of course is also a new area. And they have a delegate

[00:29:01] Spencer: That's the global electronic area.

[00:29:03] Mary: The senior director and other staff members from World Service Office, they also get votes,

[00:29:09] Spencer: And you can find out all about that in some documents somewhere.

[00:29:13] Mary: Yeah.

[00:29:15] Spencer: So we delegate to the World Service Conference, the right to make decisions about administration and operations of, essentially, Al-Anon Inc.

[00:29:27] Mary: Yes.

[00:29:28] Spencer: There's also a board of trustees because, a corporation has to have a board of trustees that's in the law. And there's a whole bunch of stuff in the concepts about delegation of authority further and further.

[00:29:39] Mary: The right of decision and participation is the key to harmony and appeals and petitions.

[00:29:45] Yep.

Delegation And Voting Dynamics

[00:29:46] Spencer: I listened to a workshop about the concepts of service. It was both about how they work in Al-Anon and also how they can work in your life. Part of the reason for this delegation to delegate is because the different groups have different numbers of people and they meet with different frequency. So the World Service Conference is large, but not overwhelmingly so. And they meet once a year. So they can only make changes at most once a year.

[00:30:17] Mary: Right.

[00:30:18] Spencer: Okay. So they really have to be concerned with policy, not with operations.

[00:30:25] Mary: Yeah,

[00:30:25] Spencer: The board of trustees meets four times a year, I think. So they can be a little more hands-on, and then there's an executive committee. They meet once a month, so they can be more reactive to things that come up. In the meantime the staff in the office is there every day.

[00:30:46] Mary: Yeah.

[00:30:47] Spencer: It's all about balancing the ultimate responsibility and authority for Al-Anon World Service belongs to the Al-Anon groups with, we have to get stuff done.

[00:30:56] Mary: Yeah.

[00:30:57] Spencer: The people who are there day to day need pretty good direction on what they're supposed to do. But they also have to have the authority to do that.

[00:31:05] Mary: And I think that's reasonable. It wouldn't make sense for the whole World Service Conference to have to vote on every single new group name that gets proposed.

[00:31:17] Spencer: If you wanted to

[00:31:17] start a group, you'd have to wait a year.

[00:31:19] Mary: It's like our disease, right? Like the more we wanna control and the more we do control, the crazier our life gets. We have to delegate some stuff. And, an organization as big as Al-Anon, of course it makes sense that world Service staff, follow certain policies.

[00:31:38] Spencer: And occasionally the delegates don't represent the full range of opinions of the fellowship.

[00:31:47] Mary: That may be true. Yes,

[00:31:50] Spencer: it at least in this case, they did not represent the opinions of a fairly large minority.

[00:32:01] Mary: Right.

[00:32:01] Spencer: Maybe not the majority. I don't know. We're not done.

[00:32:05] Mary: Yeah. Exactly.

[00:32:06] Spencer: and I look at this motion and it was 64 yes, and 26 no. that's sort of two to one ish.

[00:32:12] Mary: Yeah. The motion that got approved last year squeaked by, because I think they needed two thirds.

[00:32:19] Spencer: And it's a little bit more than two thirds. So it just barely passed.

Why Group Names Matter

[00:32:23] Mary: Yeah, it's interesting 'cause even when the policy itself changed, most motions at World Service Conference get passed, with like maybe one or two nos. But I did notice that when the policy changed in back in 2024, there were more than one or two nos. So that also piqued my interest. Which speaks to the somewhat controversial topic of the group names.

Meeting Name Rejected

[00:32:49] Mary: Let me tell the story of a couple meetings. One of the meetings that I personally started is called the Asian Pacific Islander meeting, and that meeting we registered four years ago, which was before this policy change. We had no problems getting approved.

[00:33:09] It is a process, so once you submit the form on the World Service website, the Spirit Committee reviews your registration, including the group name, and then they approved it.

[00:33:20] But when I started another meeting, and this meeting is called women of the Global Majority, which means women of color. That meeting was registered at the end of 2023, actually. It was even before the World Service Conference decided to change the policy in 2024. But that meeting name was denied. It was rejected. When I talked to the World Service office staff about it, they said, well, we have this new policy and we're not allowing these kinds of names anymore, basically.

[00:33:52] And, we appealed. So one of the concepts is that we have the right of appeal and petition that protects minorities and ensures that they be heard. So you can always make an a minority appeal. And so we appealed. A lot of people signed our appeal, but it was still rejected, rejected. And then, finally, a couple of months ago, we did get approval, but our name could not be Women of the global majority, it was changed to women of color online.

[00:34:20] Spencer: Interesting. Okay.

Words History and Power

[00:34:22] Spencer: I hear that and I hear where that might be considered inciting controversy.

[00:34:31] Mary: I don't know. Yeah, like that's the thing. Like we assume goodwill, we assume good intent in Al-Anon, so that's what I tried to do. But it's like this term, women of the global majority, apparently, rubbed staff the wrong way. They Googled it and they saw some things they didn't like and assumed that it had some sort of affiliation or whatever, but it does not. It's the latest term that a lot of people of color use to describe themselves, 'cause we are the global majority. It's just a statement of fact. And, I still, don't like that we can't call ourselves what we want, which is women of the global majority.

[00:35:12] We find that name to be a lot more empowering than women of color because, color also has a history. You know black folks were called colored at one time in, in US history and it wasn't the most, positive term. We live in the context of our culture. And, and, we live with history. And so words matter. So our group very carefully chose the words, women of the global majority, but we were not allowed to keep that. And even the word women of color online would've been rejected had the motion seven not passed right.

Identity Meetings and Safety

[00:35:51] Mary: I think different opinions are fine, but my perspective is, these meetings are important, women's brown bag lunch. Men's seeking serenity in Michigan or people of color meetings. L-G-B-T-Q meetings are, I believe, especially important because safety for that community is so vital.

[00:36:11] There's good reason that these meetings get started. There's good reason why these meetings want to have the names they do.

[00:36:18] Now, I'm not saying everyone should get to name themselves whatever the heck they want. Like, we don't want to say Democrats seeking serenity, right.

[00:36:28] Spencer: That would definitely be affiliating with something.

[00:36:32] Mary: Exactly. Exactly. So I'm not saying free for all, but, identities that are important to people, that give us common ground to apply the recovery in program in a way that speaks through our lives and our lived experience, I think is very important.

Tradition Three Tension

[00:36:48] Spencer: Yeah, I do wanna bring in one thing that seems to have been a strong motivator in a lot of the conversations about clamping down on group naming policy. And that is that, according to the report from the World Service Office, a number of groups that wanted to put participant focus in their name, such as women men, L-G-B-T-Q, were asked, if somebody wanted to come to your meeting who did not identify with that identity, would you let them in? And apparently, a number of them said no.

[00:37:26] And that directly contradicts the third tradition, which says the only requirement for membership is a problem of alcoholism in a relative or friend. I know this came up in AA early on when they wanted to exclude blacks. And I think when the first woman came to AA, there was some controversy about that as well. And that, actually, I think was one of the strong motivators for that third tradition. Which in AA is the only pro requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. It doesn't even say alcoholism.

[00:38:00] So that bothers me. I talked with a friend recently who wanted to buy a piece of literature and the closest meeting to her at that time was a men's meeting. She went there and said, look, I wanna buy a piece of literature, will you guys let me in? And they held a little group conscience and decided yeah,

[00:38:21] Mary: Yeah.

[00:38:22] Spencer: But it wasn't automatic. That to me is where there's a real tension.

[00:38:29] Mary: Yeah.

[00:38:30] Spencer: It's not the name, it's what does the name mean?

[00:38:35] So I just wanted to bring that up, that we're supposed to welcome anybody who is seeking recovery. This comes up in one of my meetings all the time because it got accidentally listed in the 2025 to 2026 AA meeting list for the area as an AA meeting. They printed 5,000 copies of this booklet.

[00:38:57] Mary: Oh, wow.

[00:38:58] Spencer: And yeah, we get AA showing up all the time.

[00:39:00] Mary: They all belong in Al-Anon anyway.

[00:39:02] Spencer: My opinion, I agree, I say to them, this is an Al-Anon meeting. You are welcome here as somebody whose life has undoubtedly been affected by somebody else's alcoholism.

[00:39:13] Mary: Yeah.

[00:39:14] Spencer: But if you're looking for AA recovery, you probably wanna find an AA meeting,

[00:39:19] Mary: Yeah.

[00:39:20] The tension that you point out, about this issue of, if a man goes to a women's meeting, if a straight person goes to an L-G-B-T-Q meeting, if a not person of color goes to a person of color meeting. I think it's a good thing to continue to wrestle with. I do not think that it can be solved with a policy.

[00:39:43] Spencer: Exactly, because the policy already says you should welcome everybody. And clearly there are groups that don't.

[00:39:49] Mary: I don't think there's a very clear cut answer to be honest with you. In the example that you gave where the group took a group conscience and said okay, this woman is clearly wanting to buy literature. It's okay for them to come in. This might be an extreme example, but let's say there's a women's meeting and let's say there's a person who has been sexually assaulted and she no longer feels safe with any man. It's a question of okay, whose safety matters more? If you are making somebody choose. But these like nuanced cases, I don't think actually are all that common. And yes, there are some meanings that have been reported to the World Service Office that say that they're not gonna welcome people who are not of the community identifier in their name. But I think those cases are f far and few in between and the benefit of these groups, I think far outweigh any, incidental, unwelcome feelings that somebody might have.

Speak Up to Delegates

[00:40:48] Spencer: So if you're still listening, and you have an opinion or more than one opinion because you know that happens, contact your delegate.

[00:40:59] Mary: Yes. If you don't know who they are, you could probably find who they are by googling your Al-Anon area website. Most areas, I believe do have a website and usually the delegates contact information is in there. So please get in touch with them, tell them how you feel about it, so that they can, keep that in mind when they vote on your behalf and discuss this topic on your behalf at the World Service Conference.

[00:41:24] Spencer: Yep. If you can't find it on the web, you can call the Al-Anon World Service Office and ask them, and I'm sure they can tell you.

[00:41:32] Mary: Yes. You can also write to the policy committee because they do welcome member inputs. They specifically say in their updates that they welcome member input. And you can, send that to WSO at Al-Anon dot org with the dash in the Al-Anon. So WSO at Al-Anon dot org and just put Attention policy committee.

[00:41:58] Spencer: I will put that in the show notes at the recovery dot show slash 4 51,

[00:42:04] Mary: Awesome.

[00:42:05] Spencer: these links, and I'll put links to the World Service Conference summaries from 20 22, 20 24, 20 25. Or maybe I'll just put a link to the page where they're all listed. You can download A PDF, you can read it in your browser. I find downloading it to be much more convenient. But, you know, that's me. It is a PDF of a printed document that is two columns wide with fairly small print. So phone is probably not the easiest place to read it. But don't print it. Oh my God. It's like hundreds of pages. If you prefer to read printed materials, select the pages that are of interest and print them, there's two or three pages that actually have this.

Al-Anon International Convention in 2028

[00:42:47] Spencer: While we're talking about, Al-Anon World Service, the Al-Anon International Convention is coming around in 2028, which is getting closer. It will be in Minneapolis, Minnesota, in the 3rd or fourth week of July.

[00:43:02] Mary: Sounds like you're gonna be there, Spencer.

[00:43:04] Spencer: If I am able to be there, I will be there. Absolutely.

Song Choice: Golden

[00:43:09] Spencer: So we're gonna take a little break, and then we'll talk about our lives in recovery. How recovery's working in our daily lives. And I asked you to bring some music. You brought a song. What is it?

[00:43:19] Mary: Yeah. I thought of one song that kind of relates to this topic. It hopefully should be, familiar to a lot of people. it's called Golden and it's from this movie called K-Pop Demon Hunters, and the artist is Ejae. The movie's about a girl that's trying to hide a part of herself, partly because of internal factors and partly some external factors. In Al-Anon, I'm trying to embrace all parts of me, including all of my identities as a woman, as a person of color, as a adult child of an alcoholic, as a relative and family and friend of alcoholics. All of my identities as a mom, you know, wife, everything, employee. I apply Al-Anon to all aspects of my life.

[00:44:05] So I think this song relates to the topic we're talking about today because, the group names it is related to people's identities and the communities that they belong to. Certainly, people of color meetings, men's meetings, women's meeting, even I think adult children. They may have specific areas of their life that they feel are different from people who did not grow up in alcoholic homes. So I don't think these things separate us. I think they make the circle bigger. I think they welcome more diverse opinions, more diverse experiences into the fellowship, and I think they're great.

[00:44:41] in the lyric it says, I live two lives, try to play both sides, but I couldn't find my own place and I'm done hiding. Now I'm shining like I'm born to be.

[00:44:52] You know, part of my recovery is not hiding any parts of myself, bringing my full self into the room. And I think a lot of these meetings create that safe space for certain communities, certain identities to be able to do that more fully. So that's why I picked the song.

[00:45:08] Spencer: Absolutely. And the vocal performance in that song is beautiful.

[00:45:14] Mary: So amazing and

[00:45:17] Yeah. Yeah. So beautiful and amazing and the live performances that they've done in the last few months are crazy good. She was trying to be a K-pop star for a long time and basically the industry rejected her saying that I think she was too old, or something like that. But look what she's done,

[00:45:36]

Our Lives in Recovery

[00:45:45] Spencer: In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery.

[00:45:48] How have we experienced recovery recently?

[00:45:52] I am recommitting to the steps. I joined what we call an AWOL group in this neighborhood, I don't know if that's a terminology where you are too, but a way of life where we're working through the steps together.

[00:46:07] Mary: Oh, cool.

[00:46:08] Spencer: This one is bigger than the ones I've been in before. Like 12 people, something like that. A few weeks ago we had to have a group conscience, to say, look, the group's pretty big. And we want everybody to share about a question. We're using the questions in the book, Paths to Recovery. If everybody shares, we could spend our whole meeting time on one question. And how does that feel for a pace?

[00:46:36] Mary: Yeah.

[00:46:37] Spencer: Everybody wants to participate, that's why they're there. But we also don't want it to take five years to get through the book, you know?

[00:46:45] Mary: Right.

[00:46:46] Spencer: So we actually spent one whole hour, talking through some questions that had come up. You know, did we wanna split? The space that we're in, we actually could split into two rooms, and have two smaller groups coming along, sort of in parallel, but not really, and people weren't wild about that idea. Some people thought, yeah, we could do that. But other people were like, I'd really like to stay with the whole group, at least for now. What we ended up is deciding to time shares. Which is not a thing that happens in very many meetings in this area.

[00:47:23] We decided on two minutes because, say you got 12 people, if everybody takes two minutes, then you can get through two questions in an hour. We also decided to end five minutes early because we butt right up against a meeting across the hall. And we wanted to give some time for people to get out of the AWOL and into the meeting.

[00:47:44] Another question was about language and in particular swearing.

[00:47:51] Mary: Oh yeah.

[00:47:52] Spencer: Apparently this came up because at least one member of the group is activated by that sort of language, because that was what they grew up with. They grew up with an angry, loud, dominating, alcoholic parent. So when people are being loud and sweary, they get activated. Other people said, I want to come as my authentic self, and I swear. We talked about it, and the decision that we came to was, let's not put limits on people's use of language in hopes that, one, people would moderate their language to some extent, knowing that at least one other person in the room is sensitive to it. And two, with a two minute share, how much swearing can you actually get in if you want to make your point. There's a couple of people who drop relatively frequent F-bombs, but not like loud and angry f-bombs. Just, it's how they talk.

[00:48:56] We said, look, we'll come back with all these decisions. Not splitting up, timing shares and language. We can come back in a month or two and say, how are we doing? Is this working for us?

[00:49:10] It's interesting for me to see how things have changed since I did it the first time and the second time. And the third time. The last time I did it was over a decade ago. And I still have those notebooks, so I can go back and look if I really want to. One question asks something like, who has expressed concern about your actions, your health, your children? I thought, not a problem now. Right. I'm in recovery. Little happy dance. But my wife has expressed some concern about some things, okay.

[00:49:47] Mary: Yeah, I was gonna say you're married.

[00:49:49] Spencer: I'm married. Okay.

[00:49:51] Mary: I'm sure there's one person on that list.

[00:49:53] Spencer: Certainly. And my doctors expressed some concerns about health issues, but we addressed them. We're not ignoring them as I might have used to done.

[00:50:01] But then I thought back. I think I was just barely an Al-Anon. One of my kids' teachers said, what's going on with this kid? Like, they're crying in class. And I said, well, their mother's in menopause, and they're going into puberty, and there's a lot of stress in the house right now. You know, a lot of hormones going on. I did not even think to say, oh yeah, and their mother's an alcoholic. Looking back, I'm like, yeah, I think that was probably a big factor actually. Even after 20 something years, I can still look back and say, I didn't see that at the time.

[00:50:45] Future Spencer here. I looked through my notebooks from my previous AWOL groups and I did not mention that incident in any of them. Hmm, interesting. Maybe. .

[00:50:59] Mary: Oh yeah. Denial is part of the disease.

[00:51:03] Spencer: this is why I feel it's important for me to periodically go through the steps again.

[00:51:11] Mary: Yeah,

[00:51:12] Spencer: Because every time I've done it, I find new stuff.

[00:51:15] Mary: right? Yeah, I'm doing the concepts now and I think after I'm done with them, I'll probably start the steps again.

[00:51:21] Spencer: So how's recovery working for you these days?

[00:51:24] Mary: As they say, I've had many opportunities to practice recovery in my life lately. One thing that happened last year that I did not expect was actually my, spouse, decided that he was gonna drink again. And so that's in our life. I am mostly staying out of it. It's none of my business, whether he drinks it or not, and I can have an amazing life whether he drinks it or not.

[00:51:50] Does not mean that I, tolerate intolerable behavior or accept unacceptable behavior. So that's been very interesting. I've had a lot of peace about it actually. I think that's all thanks to recovery. I think if I had not been in Al-Anon for 15 years, I would try to control when he drank, how much he drank, if he drank, all of that, all of the stuff that I used to do before I Al-Anon.

[00:52:16] But now I really have, learned, I can't control another person's drinking, so I try to stay out of it. But if his behavior, whether he's drunk or not drunk, or whether it's under the influence of alcohol or not, if his behavior bothers me, I now have the tools to say something. I can identify what I need and want and I can communicate them. So yeah, there's been some opportunities for me to clearly communicate this XY, Z happened. XY is actually not acceptable to me. Are you planning to keep on doing X, Y, Z?

[00:52:53] We've had some great conversation, and actually I think has in a way brought us closer. Oh my God, am I really saying that? Yes, I am. So, I have, yeah, drinking in the house. I'm a social drinker, so I've always had a glass or two of wine here or there occasionally. But, now I have a former self-professed alcoholic who is now sometimes drinking again. And it's mostly fine.

[00:53:22] It doesn't really bother me that much. Seriously, I'm not just saying that because I'm on here. That's like I have the most amazing life that I've ever had. Every year I am amazed how much my life gets better and actually just came back from a trip to my country of origin. And I took this pottery class for two weeks there and it was amazing. You know, that slogan live and that live, like I've learned how to fully, embrace and live my own life whether or not the alcoholic is still drinking or not. And we're still, happily married. So there you go.

Upcoming

[00:53:57] Spencer: Looking forward in the podcast, I started a series on the traditions, and the next one up is tradition two. We're not gonna make a, once a month schedule with this one. That's become very obvious to me, but we'll get through them. We welcome your thoughts. You can join our conversation. Tradition two is

[00:54:16] Mary: For our group purpose, there is but one authority, a loving God as God may express themselves in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants. They do not govern.

[00:54:29] Spencer: Thank you. If you'd like to share your thoughts, your experience with this tradition, whether it's in the context of a meeting or in the context of say, work or family or any other aspect of your life, you can do that. And Mary, how can people do that?

[00:54:47] Mary: You can send a voice memo or email to feedback at the recovery dot show. Or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 7 3 4 7 0 7 8 7 9 5. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer. We'd love to hear from you. Share your experience, strength, and hope, or your questions about today's topic of group name policy, or any of our upcoming topics, including tradition two.

[00:55:17] If you have a topic you'd like us to talk about, let us know. If you would like advanced notice for some of our topics so that you can contribute on that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback at the recovery dot show. Put email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.

[00:55:37] Spencer, where can our listeners find out more about the recovery show?

[00:55:42] Spencer: If you haven't already guessed, it's our website, which is the recovery dot show or a number of other aliases, where we have all the information about the show, which is mostly the notes for each episode, of which there are now 451, I guess. Those notes will include links to the stuff that we read today, which is World Service Conference summaries. I'll also, link to the current service manual, the updates to the service manual, all that stuff. And there will be a video for the Golden song that Mary chose.

[00:56:19] Mary: Yay.

[00:56:20] Spencer: Yay. And yeah, so lots of resources there.

[00:56:24]

Listener Feedback

[00:56:32] Spencer: Now it's time for some listener feedback. But first, I'm planning to attend the Michigan State Al-Anon Convention, which is May 2nd in Grand Rapids, Michigan. It's one day, got workshops and talks and a dinner. I'd love to meet you there if you're also attending. More information about the convention, the schedule, and so on, and registration is available on the Michigan Al-Anon website, which is miafg.org. And I will put that link in the show notes at the recovery dot show slash 4 51.

[00:57:10] Got a voicemail from Tanya.

[00:57:13] Tanya: Hi Spencer, this is Tanya D, I called in about a month ago for the first time, and I've been binge listening to the podcast since I found it on the internet. At that time that I called in, I was up to episode 90 something as I wanted to start from the beginning and last week I actually went to the most recent episode on accident instead of where I left off. That episode was 448, Healthy Boundaries Create Internal Safety hosted by you and Barb. And, boy did it speak to me as a codependent, at my core.

[00:57:52] I thought I knew exactly what I was prepared to do with my marriage and my qualifier, but that episode challenged me. Take a further pause. As they say. Don't just do something, stand there. Since then, I've gone back to where I left off on the pod and I'm now at episode 1 48. In between going to Al-Anon and my CODA meetings, this podcast is my go-to for working my recovery. I truly appreciate you and your family and your guest speakers for sharing your lives with us.And just to show everybody we're really all on the same journey.

[00:58:31] While I still feel like most days I can't see the forest for the trees. I am relying on the promise that others have been there, done that, and they've come out on the other side. I'm grateful for that hope and just knowing that I will be okay. Thanks again for all you do. Someday, Spencer, I hope to meet you in person and maybe to be a guest speaker.

[00:58:54] I know that God will use my pain and trials of life for a good as he always has. Peace and grace. Blessings to you my friend. Bye-bye.

[00:59:04] Spencer: Thank you Tanya. I will also forward this to Barb, because I'm sure she will be delighted to hear that what she had to say really touched you, and so am I.

[00:59:15] Kathy writes. Friends. I would encourage Eric and everyone listening not to rely on chatGPT or any AI to provide good advice on any personal difficulties. These platforms have driven many to suicide and other destructive behaviors.

[00:59:32] Additionally, these platforms are not super smart. They have the ability to amalgamate data from sources. Data that was stolen from the original authors. Sometimes these platforms misinterpret the data and sometimes they simply manufacture it. Seek the original sources and discover for yourself the real information.

[00:59:50] It's easier to let a machine do it, but much less valuable. Signed. Kathy.

[00:59:55] Thank you for that note, Kathy, and I would definitely urge you to use caution with chatGPT and other AIs.I will say that the information that Eric got was pretty good. But your mileage, as they say, may differ.

[01:00:12] I got a voicemail from Pat about sponsorship. Got a whole nother episode in the works with other shares about sponsorship, but since this came in recently, I'm gonna include it here.

[01:00:26] Pat: Hey Spencer, this is Pat from the West Coast. This is from something quite a while ago where Amy called in and had questions about sponsoring, and I thought your initial answer to Amy was quite good. I do have quite a few additional thoughts. Of course.

[01:00:42] So first I wanted to say that I suspect that every sponsor, sponsee relationship is unique. Sponsorship is all about what you make it and what you need. If you're not ready to do the steps yet, then what do you wanna be working on? Do you want someone who has strong ideas and wants to instruct you and give you tasks to do, or do you want someone to talk things out with?

[01:01:05] Can you do a weekly call, coffee date every two weeks? Read a single daily reader every evening. Read a paragraph or two from conference approved literature with your sponsor and talk about what it means to you. I will say that at some point, if you are new to the program, there's going to be, I think, maybe a point of diminishing returns if you don't work the steps, but, who am I to say?

[01:01:30] On the other hand, if you've only been able to dip your toe in the water and wanna keep it there for a while, absolutely no one in Al-Anon is going to tell you, you have to do it differently. It's just that you have to work the program if you're gonna benefit. And a toe can work a program, but it'll be able to swim once the rest of the body joins it.

[01:01:49] Second, in looking for a sponsor, and I've heard this before in the recovery show. It's important to know what you wanna focus on. It's also important to know how you wanna approach it. So I looked for a sponsor when I hit step five and was essentially told by the step that I had to have a sponsor to tell my step four to. I wasn't up for the other alternatives. I wanted to keep working the steps. So the first sponsor I chose was an older woman whose shares really spoke to me. I'd been using how Al-Anon works to do the first four steps. So we just continued in that book. I had already done my step four inventory before I ever had a sponsor. Over the years, I worked the steps three more times with her using a different book each time.

[01:02:32] I had a friend who asked someone to be her sponsor, who is a Blue Book sponsor. That approach as it is practiced in my area, is very rigid reading through the Blue book together and substituting certain words for others in the text. My ala-pal chose to end that sponsor relationship because that was a style that wasn't going to work for her. No hard feelings. They were in the same room many times after that sharing, they just didn't approach that particular growth opportunity in the same way.

[01:03:02] That's one of the beauties of sponsorship. People and relationships change, and as you have said, sponsorship is not a marriage. Ideally, if we are following the Al-Anon principles, it should be okay to end the sponsor sponsee relationship, if we're honest in a loving and non-judgmental way.

[01:03:20] My original sponsor had a sponsor who had to opt out of their relationship for personal reasons, so we became co-sponsors. Then she acquired dementia, so I felt really lost for a bit . Then I had another person in my life who I had sponsored for a while, and she had found another sponsor. Then she went into another 12 step program, but we stayed ala-pals through it all and we were meeting every once in a while to share 12 step recovery. Now we're decided we're sort of kind of co-sponsors. I have two sponsees who got what they needed and moved on. You get the picture.

[01:03:54] Third, if someone says no to sponsoring you, it is not a judgment on you. I have had to do it. Sponsorship can be a big commitment. Personally, I consider it one for life unless the other person chooses to opt out, or things drastically change.

[01:04:09] Those are my thoughts on sponsorship. I hope that's helpful to somebody out there. Spencer, as always, extreme gratitude to you and all of your guests on the show. And that's it. Pat from the west coast. Love to everyone.

[01:04:23] Spencer: Thanks, Pat. Thank you for sharing your experience, strength, and hope about sponsorship.

Closing Thanks and Outro

[01:04:30] Spencer: Mary, thank you for prompting me to have this conversation. I hope anybody's still listening at this point. I'm sure there are some people who are like, yes, yes, yes. And there are some other people who tuned out like five minutes in. Thank you for joining me today. I think this conversation has helped me get a little more clarity in my mind about how I feel about it, what I think about it, what I might write to my delegate about.

[01:04:54] Mary: Great to hear that. You're very welcome. It's been a great conversation and I really hope that the listeners do, did pay attention maybe, and, feel the need to participate, because participation is the key to harmony. It doesn't mean that there will be harmony, but it is important for harmony.

[01:05:12] And, if you feel strongly about, these topics, contact your delegate, write to the policy committee.

[01:05:23] Spencer: Thank you for listening and please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you're facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding love and peace grow in you one day at a time.