Intro

[00:00:01] Spencer: Patience and acceptance can help us deal when life gets lifey, but how do we get there?

[00:00:08] Welcome to episode 447 of the Recovery Show. This episode is brought to you by Molly, Jamie and Raquel. They used the donation button on our website. Thank you, Molly, Jamie, and Raquel for your generous contributions. This episode is for you.

[00:00:25] We are friends and family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction, understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:43] Kathy: Before we begin, we'd like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program. During this show, we will share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those are the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you'll find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:01:03] Spencer: My name is Spencer. I am your host today, and joining me today is Kathy. Welcome back to the Recovery Show, Kathy.

[00:01:11] Kathy: Thanks, Spencer. Happy to be here.

[00:01:12] Spencer: We were chatting a little bit, before we started and I noted that you've been on three previous episodes. We had number 3 56, domestic violence and other unacceptable behavior. Number 360 2 avoidance, parentheses, running away from scary feelings. And number 3 84, leaning into faith. And I thought, that shows a journey, doesn't it? And now I guess you're at a new phase in your life journey. So let's start with the readings you chose.

[00:01:44]

Living with Life in Session

[00:01:44] Kathy: The first one that I have is from the book, the Language of Letting Go, by Melody Beattie. This is page 93, April 6th, and it's a reading on patience. How sick and tired we may become of people telling us to be patient or to learn patience. How frustrating it can be to want to finally have something or to move forward and then not have that happen.

[00:02:09] How irritating to have someone tell us to wait while our needs have not been met, and we're in the midst of anxiety, frustration, and inaction. Do not confuse the suggestion to be patient with the old rule about not having feelings. Being patient does not mean we go through the sometimes grueling process of life and recovery without having feelings.

[00:02:31] Feel the frustration, feel the impatience. Get as angry as you need to about not having your needs met. Feel your fear. Controlling our feelings will not control the process. That is definitely my experience. We find patience by surrendering to our feelings. Patience cannot be forced. It is a gift, one that closely follows acceptance and gratitude.

[00:02:54] When we work through our feelings to fully accept who we are and what we have, we will be ready to be and have more. Today, I will let myself have my feelings while I practice patience.

[00:03:06] Spencer: Talk a little bit about the choice of the reading.

[00:03:09] Kathy: I looked in many different literature sources, as I was going through this, but this one really spoke to me. It's really a key part of how I've been able to have Serenity, most of the time, while I haven't gotten a paycheck in nine months.

[00:03:22] As you pointed out, one of the episodes that I Co-hosted with you was on feelings, right? Learning how to recognize my feelings and feel them and not run away from them. And that was my mo right? that's how I survived. That's definitely a childhood pattern of mine. My sponsor and going through the steps really helped me learn, like a little tiny kid, right? Oh, this feeling is this, or this feeling shows up in this way in my body. Like, a dry mouth is a sign. A tight stomach is a sign. Before I was just so disconnected from that whole thing. So I learned to recognize my feelings and feel my feelings from my first Al-Anon sponsor, when I was going through my step work. And that practice is being reinforced now and I'm digging deeper with my therapist also, who specializes in childhood trauma while I'm going through my steps in ACA. So I finished the steps in Al-Anon and now I'm in ACA, together. And that it really helps me actually. They're both really good programs.

[00:04:19] Processing my feelings is so important. ‘ cause otherwise they're just gonna stay bottled up, and it's gonna impact me in different ways. And that's truly a big part of the emotional maturity that I've been able to gain, through the years in program.

[00:04:32] I feel like I'm maybe jumping ahead 'cause I haven't talked about why I'm doing this yet.

[00:04:36] Spencer: So tell us,what happened here? And then we'll come back and,look some more at feelings.

[00:04:41] Kathy: Sure. nine months ago now, I got laid off and I knew it was coming. Some coworkers of mine were laid off like more than six months before that. So when that started happening, and they were strong people in my opinion, I was like, all right. I worked for my company for almost six years and about three years in, we got acquired. We were a little company, a hundred people. We got acquired by a very large company. So the writing was definitely on the wall. Yeah, so here I am. and I've. I've had a good amount of interviews. I've applied for a lot of jobs and at one point, I was interviewing with two companies at exactly the same time, like in the same pace, first interview, second interview, final interview, and I was sure I was gonna get at least one of 'em and no, it did not happen.

[00:05:27] So, lots of feelings.

[00:05:29] Spencer: Lots of feelings.

[00:05:31] Kathy: Many opportunities for feelings.

[00:05:34] Spencer: I was talking to a friend who was very recently laid off and is looking at what it's gonna take to get back into the job market for her. I think she'd been working the same position for at least 10 years, I think more like 15. All these feelings of am I good enough, right? Are people going to see the value that I can bring? For her, one of the things she's like, how do I get past the automated screening?

[00:06:03] Kathy: You know, how do I distinguish myself so that it gets kicked out for a person to look at. Even just thinking about it, I start to feel inadequate. Okay.

[00:06:12] Yes. Having conversations with people. I started dating a year ago, and we go out and meet and talk to his friends and many of them know that I've been laid off and they'll ask me how it's going or I get introduced to someone new and they ask me how I'm doing. They're great people. I don't know them very well. So it's like that situation where it's embarrassment, you know, like, ugh, I have to say it again.

[00:06:36] And shame, like you said, like inadequacy and, Ugh. Yeah. There's just so much wrapped in there and I really have to have a lot of kindness and compassion and be generous with myself and brace with myself to, to like really almost coddle myself through those things. 'cause it's hard, it's emotionally heavy.

[00:06:55] Spencer: . Yeah. And the standard meeting a new person question. Well, what do you do?

[00:07:00] Kathy: And sometimes I'll just say my position and the industry that I worked in and hope that ends it.

[00:07:06] Spencer: Probably for the casual small talk conversation.,

[00:07:09] Kathy: yeah. Works about half the time.

[00:07:12] Spencer: So you were gonna talk about the feelings that are swirling around you.

[00:07:18] Kathy: yeah. So I have loss, right? Loss of my paycheck.loss of my job and career and for a long time, and thank goodness for program, because if this would've happened and I wasn't in program, it would be so much worse. Doing step work helped me learn that I got external validation as my kind of self-worth. And that oftentimes came from work. You know, working hard. I was a workaholic for a long time. Then I would get the atta girls and then I would be okay. I knew that I had value because I was contributing and people saw that I was contributing.

[00:07:54] But now I have none of that, it's gone. It was removed actually. So it's almost like actually you're not good enough and we let you go. So there's grief, grief that my plans for retirement are not happening. I had planned to retire like six years later.

[00:08:09] But the point, the thing that I've learned about the feelings is, like I put a period at the end of that and I breathe, and I just let myself sit in that because, my childhood patterns will jump in and try to, just like bridge over, prop it up, bridge over that low point, that low feeling. But I have to recognize, yeah, there is grief, there is loss. And each time that comes up for me just breathing and making space to feel that feeling, even if I'm in a group of people, just close my eyes for a moment. And then it'll pass. And that's the opposite of stuffing the feeling.

[00:08:45] Spencer: This book, Opening Our Hearts, Transforming Our Losses. The immediate previous episode to this, we talked about grief.

[00:08:52] Kathy: Perfect. So building on that one then.

[00:08:55] I've grief that my savings is being used, to like, stay alive. To pay for normal things instead of the fun things. I'm lucky that I saved for a rainy day and here it is. But yeah, it's grief that, that my plan is not working out the way that I had envisioned.

[00:09:12] And that my career progression is not progressing. Right. And there is no progression in my career.

[00:09:20] Spencer: I feel like I reached a point probably sometime in my sixties, I had this question like, is there anything more for me at this point in my life? I could ask, what's the point in learning new stuff? when, When do I stop going to conferences? That sort of thing. And, that's a very personal decision, I guess. But at some point it's like it doesn't really make sense for the company to fork out a few thousand for me to go to this conference. What I might bring back from it, it would be better for, somebody who's younger to, you know, and, and that is so ageist of me, but it also was recognizing reality of where I was in my progression,

[00:09:59] Kathy: It reminds me that, when I got laid off, I decided to spend a few thousand dollars, on a cybersecurity course. I work in IT. I had the feedback of should you really do that? You're kind of old, like, you're not gonna use it.

[00:10:12] And my response to that was like. Screw you one thing. But It's a fair point, right? and I did have to balance that, and I just prayed about it and felt like it was the right thing to do. in my experience before, I've been laid off one other time and I took a bootcamp to add new skills and it did work, I got a job right after. And here, no such luck.

[00:10:33] Spencer: so far,

[00:10:34] Kathy: so far. Yes, you're right. Yeah.

[00:10:37] Spencer: my, my wife who is not in it, she works now as a tax preparer, was saying last night she said, you know, seems to me the hot area right now is cybersecurity.

[00:10:51] So loss, grief, what else? we're going in a bad place here, you know?

[00:10:56] Kathy: I know. That's why I wanna run away from these feelings. I know. so there's fear and for me, I have a fear of financial insecurity, that showed up in all kinds of ways. It's still there. Like I still have scarcity andit's work that I still have to do. It's continuing work, ongoing work. But boy does this just, make that fear ripe for digging in and cuddling with. Wrapping around me like a cold blanket, not a warm blanket.

[00:11:25] That was mentioned in that reading, there's also anger and frustration and I need to recognize those feelings when they come up and process those as well. In healthy ways.

[00:11:36] Spencer: Some why me?

[00:11:38] Kathy: That hasn't come up too much for me. I don't know why. It's probably program 'cause I definitely used to have that victim mindset. Maybe I have enough faith to know, I do believe that everything happens for a reason and I'm gonna be okay one way or the other. But definitely powerlessness, right? I can't make anybody hire me or choose me over other people or even not pull, not decide to not have the job that they've been interviewing for. That's happened to me too.And shame, like we talked about earlier, I'm not getting these interviews 'cause I'm not good enough or. Shame in having to talk about it. Some days it doesn't come up at all, and some days it's just, like those feelings are closer to the surface. Ugh.And embarrassment like we talked about, you know, when I'm talking to other people, it's like finding a way to say this without, so there's two pieces to that actually, being able to describe it without letting negative self-talk put myself down.

[00:12:33] It's what happened. It's not about who I am. I can describe things in lots of ways and I can tongue in cheek make fun of myself, but that's not good self-care. I used to do that. So I can just say it in a more positive way to people.

[00:12:48] Unless those are my trusted like inner circle people where I can really be vulnerable and share my feelings. But I used to do that with everyone, 'cause I didn't have boundaries and I didn't understand, and I was looking for people to feel sorry for me Right. Looking for pity. But now I only do that with trusted people, with program people or with my trusted inner circle with safe people.

[00:13:07] And it's been nine months. God.

[00:13:09] Spencer: That's a long time.

[00:13:10] Kathy: You could have a baby in nine months. thanks for that, Spencer. That's great.

[00:13:15] Spencer: You could,

[00:13:17] Kathy: You could, you're right.

[00:13:18] Spencer: I mean, that is how long Yes. Yes. One could. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Not me anymore, but yeah. Yeah. One could. Oh my gosh.It's good to laugh, right?

[00:13:28] Kathy: Absolutely is, yeah. Laugh or cry As long, as, long as I don't run away from the feelings. Yeah.

[00:13:35] Spencer: Yeah. You have another reading. Do we wanna go there?

[00:13:41] Kathy: Yeah, so this one is Courage to Change. It's page 1 48, and it's about disappointment. There have been days when many of us felt that good times would never come again. After so many disappointments, it seemed too painful to continue to hope. We shut our hearts and minds to our dreams and stopped expecting to find happiness. We weren't happy, but at least we wouldn't be let down anymore.

[00:14:09] Caring, hoping, wanting. These are risky. But as we recover from the effects of alcoholism, we may find that the risks are worth taking. In time, it may not be enough to simply avoid disappointment. We want more. We want rich, full, exciting lives with joy as well as sorrow. Just finding the willingness to believe that joy can exist in our lives today can be very challenging. But until we make room in our hearts for good times, we may not recognize them when they arrive. Nobody is happy all the time, but all of us are capable of feeling good. We deserve to allow ourselves to experience every bit of joy life has to offer.

[00:14:49] In today's reminder. I will not let fear of disappointment prevent me from enjoying this day. I will have a great capacity for happiness. And the quote from living with sobriety is, I want to grow in my willingness to make room in my life for good times, having faith in their arrival and patience in my anticipation.

[00:15:09] Spencer: what a great reading.

[00:15:10] Kathy: It is a good reading.

[00:15:11] Spencer: And that's May 27th. For those of you who don't do page numbers.

[00:15:15] But this sentence struck home here. Thinking back for me, thinking back into the, the active alcoholism days before I really had very much program, or maybe none at all, finding the willingness to believe that joy can exist in our lives today can be very challenging.

[00:15:35] Yeah, I was there. Everything's horrible. I can't be happy. I can't be joyful because the drinking, you know, the drinking, darn it. And then it goes on to say, but, until we make room in our hearts for good times, we may not recognize them when they arrive. Whoa.and I've had experiences where somebody else had to point out a good thing to me or ask me was there anything good?

[00:16:05] oh yeah, there was. Oh, yeah.and, wow. So true. So true. So I don't know if that connects to your experience here or not, but that's what I heard in this reading.

[00:16:17] Kathy: Yeah, it. definitely does. I can't change the fact that I'm not working right now. I'm trying to change it. I've been trying everything I can, I've been doing all kinds of steps, but it's not working so far. And, suffering is optional, right? so I can choose to suffer. It's a choice, or I can take advantage of this downtime that I have, and find things that will bring me joy.

[00:16:37] Unfortunately, you know, I'm spending more money than I would otherwise, like, you know, spending more out of my paycheck, right? So there's that balance, but I can still find things to do in life that will bring me joy, as opposed to, staring at the TV for 10 hours a day or being rolled up in my bed or whatever. or just choosing suffering. not leaning into the things that will bring me joy and feed my soul.

[00:17:02] When I was reading this, the Good Times, right? They're saying, there have been days when many of us felt that good times would never come again. So in this reading, to me good times refers to a paycheck. And reading this, I got this visual in my head of a door was totally shut in my face getting laid off, and I have a choice. I can stand in that doorway and stare at that door, like one inch from my face, or I can back up and look at the bigger picture and let go of that closed door. And, look for the joy that's around me somewhere.

[00:17:38] Spencer: Because in the words of the Serenity Prayer, that is something you cannot change.

[00:17:43] Kathy: Exactly.

[00:17:44] Spencer: But you can find another door.

[00:17:46] Kathy: I can find another door, right? Yeah. You know, I have obsession, like I have compulsion and mine can be digging in and not letting go of stuff that's happening to other people around me or just situations that are going on. I have that obsession to hold onto that closed door.

[00:18:01] Spencer: Right.

[00:18:02] Kathy: I can let go of that obsession.

[00:18:05] Spencer: Okay. So here you are in, I think in your email you said life in session. I said, life is really lifey. We talked about the,the negative feelings that have come up for you, and the obsession, the disappointments that you experienced. But we wanna talk about some solutions here, right?

[00:18:28] that's that's why we're here in a recovery program. We're not in a recovery program to bitch and moan about the bad times, but we're to understand that we can get better, we can find joy and serenity. So what have you pulled from your programs, to find, as we said at the beginning, patience.Acceptance of what is, which again, I want to come back to this idea that when I accept what is, and perhaps equally importantly, I accept what isn't. It helps me to then see what I can do, as opposed to what my feelings might tell me I need to do or want to do.

[00:19:18] Today it snowed. We had, depending where you live in the area, somewhere between five and eight inches of snow. I could say I wish there was no snow on the ground and it was sunny and warm. I'm not gonna get that. But I can put on some waterproof boots and a warm jacket, and I can go out and enjoy the snow. For me, that's where acceptance is. That's one of the ways in which acceptance is positive, that it helps me to see, to stop looking at the things that I can't do and look at the things that I can do.

[00:19:57] Patience and acceptance was what you said we wanted to talk about. So let's talk.

[00:20:03] Kathy: Okay. I can have gratitude, and gratitude is actually a really big, important part of my program. I can be grateful that, I saved for a rainy day. I'm lucky that I have that. I will not be homeless and I am safe, right? That's important.

[00:20:17] I can pray, I can ask my higher power for help. I can lean into faith and lean away from fear. and I can have faith in my higher powers plan for me and faith that I'm gonna be all right, no matter how uncomfortable I may be right now.And it always is true that looking at things over time, I can see the reasons, or I can see, oh, this and this kind of had to happen for me to get here. But I just don't know the answer yet, right? yeah, I'm in the middle.

[00:20:42] Spencer: That's a really annoying place to be.

[00:20:47] Kathy: You're right. You're right. It is.

[00:20:49] Spencer: I know I'm gonna get there, but I don't know how. Darn it. I wanna know how.

[00:20:55] Kathy: Exactly.

[00:20:57] Spencer: I am reminded of a comedy skit. I think it was from the Toronto Second City troupe. It's in a karate studio. And this one guy is like, I wanna learn how to, hit people and so on. and the sensei says, ah, Ed Gruberman, you must learn patience.

[00:21:14] And he says, patience. Yeah. How long is that gonna take? Yeah. How long is that gonna take now? Okay.

[00:21:23] Kathy: Yeah. Again.

[00:21:25] Spencer: yeah.and this is where the faith that things will work out in a way that you don't know yet. But that you'll be okay, you know, realistic understanding that you'll be okay. Not like Pollyannish, right?

[00:21:40] Kathy: But I feel it, I feel it in my gut and that didn't used to be true. That's from program that's from a higher power, which I know we've talked about before. But, I didn't like the GOD word.

[00:21:49] Spencer: We did a whole episode.

[00:21:51] Kathy: we did. yeah. Yeah. it's a big deal from where I used to be. Far Cry. So self care is another part of my program. What brings me joy, like we talked about what feeds my soul, how can I be the best parent to myself? Like I was talking before about not putting myself down in front of other people. that, self-care is being kind to myself no matter what the situation is. My self-care looks like watching that self-talk don't have negative self-talk, whether it's just in my head or if I'm saying it out loud. Deep breaths, when I start to feel tension build in my body I exercise several times a week. I get a good amount of sleep nightly. At least I try to and I prioritize that, and do things that feed my soul.

[00:22:34] I have a front yard that when I got this house, I got it in the middle of this bad drought that we had in California before we got all the rain and the drought magically went away. It was just boring grass and green plants, and I never liked the yard. And then I had to pay for water that my state didn't have and pay a landscaper to mow the grass that I didn't like. So I just killed it. I just stopped watering. And then the drought magically went away and then, things happened and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah thing, you know?and now I'm got to the point where I've had weeds in my yard at different heights, depending on the time for a few years now.

[00:23:14] And I have a drawing. I, it went through its own little journey, but right before my coworkers started getting laid off last year, I got quotes from contractors to do the work and then people started getting laid off. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not gonna spend that big chunk of money right now. Because I am pretty sure I'm gonna get laid off. And so now I'm paying myself to do that work. and I really, I enjoy, like digging in the dirt. It's really grounding for me,

[00:23:42] uhhuh.

[00:23:44] Spencer: Grounding. Right. Okay. Took me a minute

[00:23:46] Kathy: but it really is grounding. So that's one thing that feeds my soul and it's starting to come together. I've been doing it for a few months now. it's just me and a few other people help me occasionally, but, that's okay. And, I just take baby steps and it's making progress. I'm starting to see changes because you have all that foundation stuff, like program, right? You have all the foundation stuff for the dirt where you have to get ready and it looks the same from the top. So that's something that I really do enjoy and I'm having fun with it.

[00:24:13] Spencer: Finding something like that. My wife is talking about why she's not retiring yet. She says, I need to have a sense of purpose, and right now work is giving me a purpose. It sounds like you've found a purpose in redoing your yard.

[00:24:32] Kathy: Yeah, I have, and actually that reminds me of something. Doing my yard gives me a lot of opportunities to listen to all different kinds of podcasts. And I've been listening to different retirement podcasts and, career transition and all kinds of different things. , One thing that I stumbled upon was this person named Chip Conley. He was interviewed on one of the podcasts and he wrote a book called Learning to Love Midlife. He was a CEO of, I don't know, something. And then he sold that, and then he got involved in helping like A-V-R-B-O kind of thing. As a mentor for their young little startup.

[00:25:12] Anyway, he had his midlife crisis at like the age of 40. He has an interesting story, but I'm starting to read that book and go through that workbook. He has an interesting perspective that it's not a midlife crisis, it's a midlife chrysalis. And so he's actually built resorts that are focused on like sessions, on doing this work and you can go to one of these resorts and go through this,bootcamp type of thing for four days or a week or something. I'm not gonna do that. Because I'm not working. I just have the book and the workbook. But it's interesting, that there's enough people that are in this spot that he's built this business around this idea now. And of course there's other resources too.

[00:25:50] But I'd like that midlife chrysalis thing. And that also gives me hope. And the same was true in all these retirement or career transition podcasts that I was listening to too. It's the, this is the end of something, but there's so many different opportunities.

[00:26:06] And it's funny, one, I've had this idea for writing a children's book for a long time. I'm like, maybe I'll do that. who knows, right?

[00:26:14] Spencer: So you're reading that and you're thinking about, I mean, what that sounds like to me is a change in perspective, a change in attitude about where you are in your life.

[00:26:27] Kathy: Yes.

[00:26:28] Spencer: How many times have I heard in Al-Anon, the only things I have control over are my actions and my attitudes. Sometimes it takes some work to change attitude, which I like this definition that I've talked about before, from aviation of attitude is angle of approach. If I think about my life trajectory as a Boeing 7 47, it takes a little while to turn that thing,but I can do it.

[00:27:00] My recovery program gives me tools that help me do that. And so does yours.

[00:27:06] Kathy: So does mine. Yeah.

[00:27:08] Spencer: Yeah. So what else are you using from recovery?

[00:27:11] Kathy: I'm continuing with my program. I'm going to meetings. I'm talking with my sponsor. I'm, working the steps. I'm working with my sponsees. I make sure to stay in community. I'm, I don't let myself isolate. however, I will say I also have times where, like, a few weeks ago I felt really low energy. Those times, that's challenging for me to give myself the space and the grace to feel those feelings and to let myself sit on the couch and watch Netflix for a while, cause I am like an overachiever person. You know, that downtime in it, it's the that saying of, I can be a human being, not a human doing.but I have to coach myself on that.

[00:27:53] Spencer: So you're not isolating, you're staying in community, and, as we're doing today, you're talking about what's going on.

[00:28:00] Kathy: Right. Talking about my feelings and the struggles that I'm having. But I make sure that I talk about that and be vulnerable with people who are safe. With program people, with people who I can trust, who I know that they have my best interest at heart. I used to not have boundaries and not understand that. But program has given me that tool, and that's one of the most important tools to me, is to be able to recognize,who's safe and who's not. I used to kind of take my own self and my own little vulnerable self as like this fragile little glass ball, and I would hand it to people and spill my guts out and then they would just drop the ball. Because I had the sense that they should be taking care of me or something, and then I would be angryand resentful that they dropped the ball that was me. But I've learned, I don't give the ball to everyone. I only give it to a few trusted few.

[00:28:51] Spencer: Yeah, that wasn't actually their job.

[00:28:54] Kathy: Exactly. It's my job. I, and I completely did not know that.

[00:28:59] Spencer: It's not always something we're taught, is it?

[00:29:01] Kathy: No.

[00:29:02] Spencer: I think you talked earlier about learning to love yourself through the work of the steps. Do I remember that correctly?

[00:29:12] Kathy: I don't know if I used those words, but you're right, it's true. yeah, I do love myself. ACA talks about being your best parent, being the best parent that you can to yourself and that there's all different kind of ages of different Kathys in here. There's a little tiny baby Kathy and toddler Kathy and teenager Kathy. And they all have feelings that are to some degree stuck in the feelings that I had at the different ages. So it's kind of like having my own set of children with different personalities and different kinds of strong emotions. So it's having compassion. So I've learned to have, and I'm still working on it, right? It's ongoing. Probably, never end. Having compassion and patience with all those different parts of me and the different feelings that come up in those different parts and giving each one of them kind of the space to express themselves. And I'm still figuring all this, all of this out, but, but it's that too. And I think it's loving myself and loving all the different parts of me.

[00:30:17] Spencer: What else do you wanna talk about?

[00:30:20] Kathy: There's something that I came up on, a reading that I really wanted to share. And actually I think this is from my higher power, and I feel like, at least if some people who are listening to this, that this may help. You know, getting laid off is really hard. I've listened to some podcasts that have said, you got fired. Just own it. Don't pretend that you didn't get fired. You got fired. I think part of it is getting rid of the denial and just being okay with it.

[00:30:44] And I think part of that is like letting go of that shame and not tiptoeing around it. But, depending on what's going on with each of us and the point in our lives when something like this happens, this can be truly devastating. And I mean, it's really hard for me to process and to work through and, thank goodness that it happened for this long, when I've had program. Because if I didn't have program and I had been laid off for this long, it would be a much different picture.

[00:31:15] So let me just read this reading. This is about practicing self-love from the ACA red book, which is kinda like the AA book.

[00:31:22] Spencer: Right.

[00:31:24] Kathy: If we have learned anything in ACA, we have learned that we can live beyond mere survival. We do not have to live alone with our thoughts or vulnerabilities as we did as children. It is regretful to say that some ACA members have died by failing to reach out for help after finding the ACA program. These adult children are perhaps the most troubling to think about.

[00:31:48] We may have attended meetings with a person who seemingly worked a meaningful ACA program. Who will need to take his own life. Sometimes there might have been a warning. At other times there was not. We are naturally disturbed by these events. We may even be angry with God for allowing such a thing to occur.

[00:32:08] Doesn't God hear all prayers, you might ask. Why that person and not me? There are many reasons why these things occur. We do not claim to know why someone would choose to stop living. Some of us have thought about it ourselves at times, but we made the decision to live. We chose life and found life through ACA principles and fellowship.

[00:32:31] A good friend of mine committed suicide like a year and a half ago. She had a really strong fear that she made a mistake buying this condo that she made after she got divorced. She came from a dysfunctional family. She had a dysfunctional marriage, and she felt like she was gonna get laid off at her job. And even before she got laid off at her job, she killed herself. She just didn't have the tools and we had lost touch, but we got back in touch like six months prior to this and she started going to meetings with me and she let me know that she was interested in getting a sponsor and she had a time scheduled to meet with a sponsor with someone to interview them as, potentially sponsor the following week.

[00:33:13] And, I don't know. I guess, she made that choice. But, the reason I wanted to read this here is that,for anyone listening and my daughter when she was 13, she attempted suicide and she's gone through years and years of treatment and I've gone along with her. I have learned that talking about suicide should be like talking about, that you got a scrape on your elbow. it's not anything to be ashamed of. People have suicidal thoughts, sometimes they're passive where you don't have a plan, but sometimes you have a plan.

[00:33:44] So I wanna mention that if someone's listening to this and you are having suicidal thoughts, that there's choices, right? There's a lot of sources to reach out to. And I'm gonna list those here and we'll put them in the show notes. And just remember that things will get better, right? This is a low point. and life can be really difficult. When we're willing to ask for help and able to ask for help,we can get through this hard part. So I just wanted to share some hope with people who are listening.

[00:34:16] And if you know someone in your life who's in this situation, you can share these materials with them. You can call or text to nine, eight, eight, anytime, 24 hours a day. You don't even have to call them and use your voice. You can literally text them. I've seen my daughter do it before. You can text home to 7 4 1 7 4 1 from anywhere in the us. It's also 24 hours a day, seven days a week, free, confidential.

[00:34:41] I also have this from the National Institute of Health, NIH. There's five action steps to help someone who's having thoughts of suicide. You wanna ask, are you thinking about suicide? Just like, oh, do you have a scraped elbow? Are you thinking about suicide? Like, you shouldn't be any different. And we've had this, it's getting better, but we still have this, kind of hesitancy to talk about mental health. It's an illness just like anything else, just like alcoholism. and people get depressed and life can be really hard. so that question is not an easy question to ask, but it can help start a conversation. Studies show that asking people if they're suicidal does not increase suicidal behavior or thoughts.

[00:35:19] Spencer: Which is a fear that I could reasonably have. If I say, Hey, are you thinking about killing yourself? Oh, I didn't think of that, but now I am. It's probably not the response you're gonna get.

[00:35:31] Kathy: Yes. And I did ask my friend actually. I did ask her this question and we talked about it, but I'm powerless. I can't read into her head. And I have learned too, and I don't know if maybe this, it says it in here, but you can ask 'em if they have a plan. That was a big thing that I learned while my daughter was in program. If they say, no, I don't have a plan, then probably it's in the kind of passive side, like just having thoughts about it. But if they say they have a plan, you can say, what is your plan? and do you have the things in your house to do that? And a lot of times they'll tell you. And, the whole conversation can be scary to be on the receiving end of that. But it's going on in their head regardless.

[00:36:10] You can try to help them work through those pieces and you can be there. Listening without judgment is key to learning what the person is thinking and feeling. Research suggests, acknowledging and talking about suicide may reduce suicidal thoughts.

[00:36:24] You can help keep them safe. You can reduce access to highly lethal items or places can help prevent suicide. asking the person if they have a plan and making lethal means less available or less deadly can help the person stay safe when suicidal thoughts do arise.

[00:36:43] You can help them connect, giving them that information. So I have a friend whose father committed suicide, and she keeps these cards in her purse and like hands them out to people. She has 'em on a refrigerator. Sometimes if she's at someone's house, if they're okay with it, she'll put 'em on their refrigerator. Just sharing that information takes some of the stigma away from it.

[00:37:05] And you can follow up with them. You can stay in touch with the person after they've experienced a crisis or after they've been discharged from care. And, just being there and helping them pull, pulling them out into community as much as they're able to, or, spending time with them, is a way to give them support.

[00:37:22] Spencer: Yeah, that's very important. I had the experience recently of a person who was very close to somebody I love following through and killing herself. And just, I don't understand it. I do and I don't, you know.

[00:37:38] Kathy: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:39] We can work our own program. I can go to meetings, I can reach out, I can process my feelings when they come up and, don't stuff them back down. I can choose to get into a, I get to perspective. So instead of, Ugh, I have to work on my yard and say I get to work on my yard and I designed it and I get to go through all these steps and it's another way of flipping it.

[00:38:03] I get to explore new transition options for the next phase of my life. That's exciting. who knows what it's gonna be and it could be really fun. I get to have fun with my boyfriend who's also semi-retired. we have this like period of time where I can just go do fun things. and I get to learn new DIY skills. Maybe I'm gonna redo my bathroom. I don't know.

[00:38:24] And I can surrender, because I'm powerless. And,the sooner I can surrender, the sooner I can get to patience and acceptance. Surrender to my higher powers plan and surrender to my own powerlessness. And I have choices.

[00:38:39] Spencer: We've been talking about a lot of stuff here, and, I'm sure that our listener is feeling full of ideas and information. Maybe we can wrap up here. I know you used the phrase life in session, when you contacted me. We've been sort of poking around that, but maybe we can wrap it up and say, what are you doing to continue with your life in session, in this, hopefully transitional, period.

[00:39:07] Kathy: Recovery and therapy and step work has helped me build my resilience, when hard things happen in my life. And it's basically building that foundation slowly. And I came across this analogy of a Chinese bamboo tree. This tree is an analogy for resilience and symbolizing how effort to build a strong foundation eventually leads to this explosive, beautiful growth. That tree shows no sign of visible growth for the first few years while it develops this deep root system. And it looks like nothing's going on at all when you look at the tree. But then it shoots up to 80 feet tall in just a matter of weeks. It's like a visual representation of hope that even when there's times where not a lot seems to be happening, you still are building that foundation and doing the prep work. hopefully that's what I'm doing. I'm getting ready for that 80 foot explosion.

[00:40:02] Spencer: Thank you so much. We'll take a little break and then come back and talk a little bit about what's happening in our lives in recovery recently.

Song 1

[00:40:12] Spencer: I asked you to bring some music. what's your first choice here? Your first pick?

[00:40:17] Kathy: My first song is by Alabama Shakes and it's called, Hold On. And some of the lyrics are, yeah, you gotta wait, but I don't wanna wait. Well, I don't wanna wait. No, I don't wanna wait. You gotta hold on. I like this song because it has some attitude in it. 'cause honestly, I don't wanna be laid off, dammit. I don't wanna spend my savings surviving, dammit. Usually I do pray for my higher power to help me follow their plan for me. However, when I had concurrent interviews, I did start praying for that pony. but whatever, doesn't work. So now I'm just back to acceptance and just gonna,do my best to have patience and, follow my higher powers plan.

[00:41:01]

Our Lives in Recoveryz

[00:41:09] Spencer: In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery. How have we experienced recovery recently?

[00:41:17] We're recording this at the end of November. we had been traveling for the Thanksgiving holidays, visiting mostly family and also some connected friendsto the family. In consequence, I missed all of my meetings, basically, while we were traveling. I did have some recovery podcasts that I was listening to that helped. We got back on Tuesday before Thanksgiving,

[00:41:42] I recently started going again to a Wednesday night meeting that used to be my home group, but I hadn't been there for over a decade. The topic was sponsorship. I got to think about my experience being sponsored, my experience as a sponsor, and how those both supported and enriched my recovery. As I was talking about my experience being a sponsor, one of the things that I said was, now if you ask me to be your sponsor, we'll talk about why you want a sponsor, and that if you ask me to be your sponsor, I expect that we'll go through the steps together. And I also expect that you will call me. And I realized that I asked. a guy recently to be my sponsor, because I had been sponsor in name only for quite a while. And I'm expecting him to call me. I think I need to call him. And there's some stuff coming up in my life that I really could use some conversation with a sponsor about. Coincidence? I think not. So that's where I am on that,that I need to reach out and call my new sponsor. How about you? What's going on in your life?

[00:42:55] Kathy: It's the first holiday season that I'm gonna have without my daughter. She moved out in February before I got laid off.And she is in her own growth journey. She has made the decision not to be communicating with me. She had a rocky childhood and I obviously played a part in that. I was one of the two parents. I'm kind of the safe parent, but she is just grappling and struggling with, I'm the safe parent, quote unquote, and I should have done more to protect her.

[00:43:25] I hear this, I'm not the only parent that's going through this. Other kids her age are doing similar things. She's 21 right now. It's an interesting process and thank goodness for program for that too, because I'm not taking it personally, and I'm just trying to give her space, but also let her know that I love her and, when she's ready to communicate that I'll be here for her. And I put together little, like, baskets for her, occasionally. And I'd still get birthday and Christmas gifts or whatever. And thank goodness I have a therapist too to talk through this about.

[00:43:55] Again, another powerless situation, right? An opportunity for me to use program in all my affairs. I do have faith that we're gonna reconnect and it'll probably take a few years. And that kind of sucks, but there's nothing I can do about it. I am really excited about her journey. She's in college and she is working on her career path, and she's in a relationship for the first time and I do occasionally see her and she looks really happy, so that's good. I'm glad for her.

[00:44:22] Separately I'm dating someone, which is a big deal. I didn't date for seven years, intentionally. I didn't want to, wasn't ready for any of that? I just worked on myself. and we've been together for about a year now, and we're talking about moving in together and that's would be a big change. The best part of that, I would say is watching myself interact with him with program. I say things that just come outta my mouth. Of course I can see some of my patterns too, but I see my program in our relationship, in me. I see my program in me, in our relationship, and that's such a great feeling. I've never had that because I, I started program, after probably 15 years of being married and that was a really difficult marriage and then separated for so long. So that's a really great, piece of it for me.

Upcoming

[00:45:12] Spencer: Thank you. I always look forward to what's coming up in the podcast, and we started a series on the traditions with Patrick and tradition one. His idea to start talking about the traditions again since we'd just finished the steps. So next up would be tradition two. Tradition two says, For our group purpose, there is but one authority, a loving God as he may express himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern.

[00:45:42] We welcome your thoughts on tradition two. We welcome your thoughts on patience and acceptance in the middle of a huge possible life change, or just life being lifey. You can join the conversation. You can leave us a voicemail or send us an email with your feedback or your questions. And Kathy, how can people do that?

[00:46:02] Kathy: You can send a voice memo or email to feedback at the recovery dot show. If you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 7 3 4 7 0 7 8 7 9 5. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer. We'd love to hear from you. Share your experience, strength, and hope, or your questions about today's topic of patience and acceptance, or any of our upcoming topics, including tradition two. If you have a topic you'd like us to talk about, let us know.

[00:46:34] If you'd like advance notice for some of our topics so that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback at the recovery dot show. Put email in the subject line to make it easier to spot. Hey Spencer, where can our listeners find out more about the recovery show?

[00:46:50] Spencer: Yeah, that would be, if you haven't guessed already, our website, the Recovery dot show and some other aliases that also get you there. Where we have information about the show, which is mostly notes for each episode, including this one, which you can find at the recovery dot show slash 4 47.

[00:47:12] In there, you'll find links to the books that we read from or mentioned today, videos for the music that Kathy chose, and also there's some links to other recovery, podcasts and websites.

Song 2

[00:47:26] Spencer: We'll take a break before looking at what's in the mailbag and what is our second song that you chose?

[00:47:34] Kathy: On the second song is Patience by Tame Impala. And some of the lyrics are, they would ask me all the time, every time this shows up. So what you doing with your life? It ain't giving up. Just growing up in stages, another season changes and still my days are shapeless. It's always drive straight, don't be late. ‘Cause time waits for no one. I should be flying straight with no delay. 'cause time takes from everyone.

[00:48:00] I like this song because people do ask me questions about my life and I have a choice in how to answer. It can have this weight and bucket of shame when I feel like I have to be accurate and say that I got laid off nine months ago. I've interviewed, but I haven't been hired yet. So now I can say I'm semi-retired earlier than I had planned on and I'm in transition. And that usually takes the conversation in a different path. I can be a loving parent to myself using kind words to describe my situation and still being honest without being overly transparent and open.

[00:48:34]

Listener Feedback

[00:48:42] Spencer: I got a bit of listener feedback this week.

[00:48:46] From Dan, who wrote, I listened to Cliff's story. I would appreciate it if you could pass on my email to him. Sad to say I share many parts of his story. Thanks. Dan. S

[00:48:56] I did forward Dan's email to Cliff and I think Cliff responded to Dan. Generally, if you want to connect with one of my guests, send an email to the feedback email address, and I will do my best to get you in touch.

[00:49:12] Kate writes, hi Spencer. I've been listening to your podcast on my drive into work for the past year or so. I'm currently on episode 213, so perhaps you've covered this topic idea in the future, because right now I'm in 2017's episodes. Smiley face.

[00:49:30] There's an amazing reading in the Al-Anon service manual called Understanding Ourselves, Families and Friends are Affected, that moved me greatly when I first heard it, and I think it could be a topic of an episode. You could read that reading and talk about it. Our denial, our anger, dot dot dot. If you've not done it already, I'd be more than happy to help you with it.

[00:49:50] Thank you very much for all your service and the help you provide with the podcast. Kate B in Canada.

[00:49:57] Thanks Kate, and I think that is a wonderful idea. It's a great reading. One of my meetings, we have used that reading sometimes when we have a newcomer. We get a little tired of reading the same step one over and over again. And there's a lot of Al-Anon literature that is welcoming to newcomers and covers similar topics, like that one.

[00:50:20] I was contacted by a listener who wants to connect with the Recovering Couples Anonymous program, which we talked about in episode number four 40. I'm not a member, so I'm not able to help directly. I forwarded. The email to Valerie, who was my guest for that episode, but I also suggested the website for RCA as a resource about the program. The website for Recovery Couples Anonymous, recovering dash couples.org, has a meeting finder and a bunch of other resources.

[00:50:50] I also got some comments on the website. In particular, a couple comments on episode 4 46, Navigating Grief and Recovery.

[00:51:00] Colleen wrote. Cliff and Spencer, I love this episode. Cliff, thank you for sharing your story of loss from this godawful disease. Opening our Hearts and Transforming Our Losses is a wonderful book. I attended a book study of this book when the father of my two sons drank himself to death. They were 12 and 17. Watching someone you love die slowly is so painful. I don't wish it on anyone, especially for 12 and 17 year olds. It's been seven years now, but moments of his absence are so strong for my sons and me. Yes, grief is very personal and it can be different for everyone. Thank you for this episode.

[00:51:39] And Pilar writes, I respect Cliff's approach so much. I loved his intelligence and integrity. I came from a difficult story and found his conclusion about making sense of all the tragedy through service, so close to my heart. I think 90% of my recovery is about making sense of the mess through helping others. I would love to get in touch with Cliff if possible. He sounds like an amazing person. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:52:05] I did forward Pilars message to Cliff.

[00:52:09] And finally, a general comment from somebody named Sparkle. I just wondered if you could share a link of where you go to listen to those different daily recovery recordings that you mentioned. I'd be interested in listening to them too.

[00:52:23] Those are on the Recovery Radio Network podcast. There's actually a link to that in the section headed Podcasts We Like, which is on the right of the webpage, if you are on a computer. It's near the bottom if you're on a phone. And I think also on a tablet.

[00:52:46] And that's it for this week. Keep those cards and letters and voicemails coming folks.

Thank you, Kathy

[00:52:53] Spencer: Kathy, thank you for joining me today for this conversation about patience and acceptance and life in session and so much more.

[00:53:04] it's been a joy to talk to you today.

[00:53:07] Kathy: yeah. It's my pleasure.

[00:53:09] Spencer: And you got one more song.

[00:53:11] Kathy: I do. the last song selection is Unanswered Prayers by Garth Brooks, which you can listen to at the recovery show slash 4 4 7. Some of the lyrics, sometimes I thank God for unanswered prayers. Remember when you're talking to the man upstairs, and just because he doesn't answer doesn't mean he don't care. Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers.

[00:53:33] I chose this song because, I was in a meeting, we read from Courage to Change and the topic of disappointment came up. And, that's where I found that reading. I, that one that I read wasn't on my radar at all. And Lori, in the meeting mentioned the song. So there we go. And it's a good reminder that my higher powers plan is better than mine if I can just have patience and acceptance.

Outro

[00:54:02] Spencer: Thank you for listening and please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you're facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding, love and peace grow in you one day at a time.