Intro

[00:00:01] Adrienne: It's important to emphasize that recovery from one, however heroic does not guarantee recovery from a second problem area or a third or a fourth. Switching addictions, say from alcohol to food or smoking, doesn't provide the desired relief either. Complete freedom comes when the last addiction, the last condition is surrendered and healed.

[00:00:26] Spencer: Welcome to episode 442 of the Recovery Show. This episode is brought to you by Renee, Lauren and Elaine. They used the donation button on our website. Thank you, Renee, Lauren and Elaine for your generous contributions. This episode is for you.

[00:00:41] We are friends and family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction, understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:58] Adrienne: Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program. During this show, we will share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you will find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:01:21] Spencer: My name is Spencer. I am your host today, and joining me today is Adrienne. Welcome to the Recovery Show, Adrienne.

[00:01:27] Adrienne: Good morning, Spencer. Thank you. And thank you for inviting me to your podcasts.

50 Years of 12-step Recovery

[00:01:32] Adrienne: I have been in 12 step recovery continuously since May 15th, 1972. That's 53 years. Almost 53 and a half years. A couple of years ago, I began to search for a way to pass on my experience, strength, and hope to others. I had applied the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous to several areas of devastation in my own life with good benefit.

[00:01:58] I wanted others to know that recovery from problems other than alcohol related issues is also possible through the 12 steps of AA. I'd like to read the introduction to my new book, 50 Years of 12 Step Recovery that was just released on July 29th this year. This introduction gives an overview of the widespread recovery the steps have given to me.

[00:02:24] As I continue to attend 12 step meetings, I almost never encounter anyone who has been in continuous recovery through the 12 steps for 50 years or more. Although working the program is truly a one day at a time process, 50 years gives a unique retrospective of what recovery through the 12 steps can produce.

[00:02:45] The steps have guided me, matured me, and in a way raised me from a fearful, confused, and manipulated young woman to a mature, confident, dependable adult who has been a physician for the past 36 years. Because of the steps I have achieved each and every goal I have set for myself when that goal depended solely on me.

[00:03:08] I have not been so fortunate when the goal also depended on another, but that circumstance is explained in the first recovery principle. Conceding defeat. Several areas of my life, required specialized professional counseling to understand the dynamics of my past and my pain. I showed up to those counseling sessions with integrity and the deep base belief that fighting through the pain would eventually end the pain, and so it has.

[00:03:40] Today I am happier than I have ever been, grateful for the firm foundation the steps have given me. My desire is that the reader will find new insights and hope to put together a recovery that can last. This book shows how I became free in five major areas of my life. One, the compulsion to overeat, and now maintaining my goal weight for 46 years.

[00:04:05] Two. The confusion and distress from being in relationship with an alcoholic or other addict.

[00:04:14] Three, romance fantasy.

[00:04:17] Four, someone else's underearning.

[00:04:21] Five, the trauma of being sexually abused.

[00:04:26] Any one of these issues could have thwarted my development and destroyed my chances for happiness. So many suffer for one or more of these conditions.

[00:04:36] It's important to emphasize that recovery from one, however heroic does not guarantee recovery from a second problem area or a third or a fourth. Switching addictions, say from alcohol to food or smoking, doesn't provide the desired relief either. Complete freedom comes when the last addiction, the last condition is surrendered and healed.

[00:05:01] To fully recover from all of them, well, that's the purpose of this book.

[00:05:06] Spencer: Thank you for reading that. I read that and I thought, oh, yes, I would like to talk to you. What did you discover when you wrote this book, while you were writing it?

[00:05:16] Adrienne: While I was writing it, I discovered that I was clearly out the other side of all of these problems. That I had done the hard work. And it was hard and I didn't suffer from all of them. At the same time, I would say the romance fantasy and being in relationship with an under earner came, like in the last 15 years.

[00:05:39] But, one by one I was able to knock them off and recover, and I was grateful that for many years I was not suffering from any of them.

[00:05:50] Spencer: That's. amazing. I'm just gonna be blunt about it. That's amazing. As I was reading the book, I jumped forward. I think my fingers slipped when I was opening the Kindle and it threw me up to a later chapter, and I noticed that it was about a principle.and then when I went back and started from the beginning, as I'm sure is intended, I saw that you have taken the 12 steps and derived 12 principles, one for each of the steps.

[00:06:18] This is something that I've heard from people in 12 step programs when they get to the 12th step, which is practicing these principles in all our affairs. and often I hear the question, well, what are the principles? And there's a lot of different answers to that question, but you've found a set of answers for yourself. you wanna talk about those and how they've guided your recovery.

[00:06:39] Adrienne: I didn't think about it too much before, but as I was writing the book or starting to write it a couple of years ago, 'cause it took me two years to write the book, what I realized is I have enormous respect for the way the 12 steps of AA were originally written. However, I wanted to use a little bit more of a shorthand that described the way I internalized them.

[00:07:02] So that's how these 12 principles came, and they're not so different from the 12 steps. I'm gonna go through them, they are in the book, but since no one's ever heard these before, this is how I live, feel, see, perceive, the program and the spiritual challenges, direction that the program has given me.

[00:07:24] Principle one is conceding defeat.

[00:07:28] I have a little intro in the book that really goes into this after I write down my personal story. In each area of suffering. Those five I just mentioned, I had to surrender sooner or later to the inevitable truth that I was defeated. The best of my cleverness. Willpower and understanding were not sufficient for me to solve the problem alone. Try as I might, I could not find a lasting solution by myself. And that goes for all of those five categories.

[00:08:01] So for me, this conceding defeat, it could be a disaster, but for me it was a touchstone for growth because I knew if I couldn't do it, I would have to look beyond myself.

[00:08:13] Principle two, hoping something could save me. And for each of these, there's a little short paragraph throughout the book to introduce the concept like I just did in greater detail.

[00:08:25] Principle three, surrendering the guidance rather than self-direction.

[00:08:30] Principle four, identifying my fundamentals, liabilities, and assets.

[00:08:37] Principle five, trusting another with my secrets.

[00:08:42] Principle six, getting ready to submit my bad and my good.

[00:08:47] Principle seven, imploring God to remove my shortcomings.

[00:08:51] Principle eight, preparing to make amends.

[00:08:55] Principle nine, making amends to those I've harmed.

[00:08:59] Principle 10, surveying my behavior and correcting my errors.

[00:09:04] Principle 11, letting God direct my life.

[00:09:08] And principle 12, witnessing spiritual development as the antidote for addiction, and other sorrows too.

[00:09:16] In my book, one of the appendices in the back lists, 32 12 step programs and contact information that span so many different human sorrows, addictions and other behavioral issues. But they all follow the same 12 steps.

[00:09:34] Spencer: There are so many out there and one can start to, make jokes about it, but it's, you know, people have a problem. They found that these 12 steps, these 12 principles, help them recover from the problem and that's a good thing, right?

[00:09:49] Adrienne: Yeah. It's a great thing.

[00:09:51] Spencer: You mentioned in the introduction, and of course, I knew from our earlier conversation, you are a doctor, and you wrote your own doctor's opinion. It is different from the one in the AA big book, but it also parallels it. For me, I looked at that. I said, oh, that makes sense. I hadn't thought about it that way before. And I'm just going to give a little preview of what hit me in there was, I think you had three different ways in which you see addiction developing in a person. what sparks it, what triggers it. And that to me was like, oh, that makes a lot of sense, because I hear people talking about their own experience and say, I started drinking because, I had this pain and I was using the d drinking to numb the pain. Or I started drinking because. I had this, as they say, sometimes this God shaped hole in me and I was looking for something to fill that hole. and I've seen this, like somebody says, oh, this is why we get addicted. This is why we start drinking, why we're alcoholic and somebody else says, no, this is why. And I like that you've given us several different pathways, because, you know, people are different. So anyway, with that, I think you wanted read the, your doctor's opinion chapter.

[00:11:08] Adrienne: Yeah, I do. And I also wanna make a comment about the doctor's opinion in the big book, which was published in 1939, and I think they did a super job in making it clear that the alcoholic's body is different from the non-alcoholic body. And that one drink is too many, a thousand or never enough, and that there is what they called an allergy of the body, which causes these drinkers, these alcoholics, to develop the phenomenon of craving that normal drinkers just don't do. Even normal drinkers who might be heavy drinkers.

[00:11:47] What's interesting is the word allergy was really brought into medical lingo in 1906 by a French doctor named von Pirquet, and his definition of it was just altered reaction. What I'm talking about, I'm gonna read my doctor's opinion, is something different. It talks about, as you'll find out, the threefold nature of illness, and I'm gonna read that.

[00:12:11] And on the other side of this chapter. We can discuss some of the details that I'm covering. And I just wanna say, I've been a, licensed physician in the United States since 1990.

[00:12:25] I understood how someone could become addicted to alcohol, cigarettes, and drugs, but I was always intrigued that an addiction to gambling could occur without any direct chemical input into the body. Equally puzzling was the fact that eating wholesome foods could cause the heartache of compulsive overeating and out of control weight gain, often beyond the actual calorie count of the foods that were eaten. I had been living in 12 step recovery for 13 years when I entered medical school and had the opportunity to begin my medical studies focused on what might cause addiction and how addiction could be overcome.

[00:13:06] Years of formal medical training, directing a medical practice for more than three decades, and working through some seemingly hopeless conditions myself, I have arrived at some basic conclusions.

[00:13:19] All illness is physical, emotional, and spiritual. For example, if a teenager breaks his arm, he might be sad because he cannot play in the next baseball game. Another teenager, same injury, might go to school and gleefully have his classmates sign his cast. While a third might despair that he will never be able to play the drums again. Three very different emotional and perhaps spiritual reactions to the same physical injury.

[00:13:52] Addiction is physical, emotional, and spiritual too. Yet the proportion of each component of this triad is different for each addict. Using addiction to alcohol as an example, it may be the very first drink of alcohol that sets in motion the physical component, priming the drinker for the craving that leads to the next drink. In this drinker, the physical component is predominant over the emotional or spiritual. Yet both the emotional and spiritual components decline as the alcoholic continues to drink.

[00:14:28] The emotional dominant alcoholic might start drinking to overcome a specific challenge, say the breakup of a marriage, the death of a loved one, or some other loss. This person might be able to stop drinking with some difficulty, once the emotional event has been processed and accepted. The physical dependence and or spiritual decline have not yet occurred. But future emotional challenges place him at risk of a relapse.

[00:14:58] The spiritually challenged drinker may use alcohol to face the confluence of life's challenges, not having reliance on spiritual principles, and often assured that they alone or with minimal help, can figure out the solutions to their problems, the challenges increase. This user cannot find an effective long-term solution to life's problems and relies on the temporary relief alcohol might bring only to later suffer alcoholism's devastating consequences.

[00:15:32] No matter how the addiction starts physically, emotionally, or spiritually, the physical component becomes paramount and an addict cannot safely use the object of his addiction without risking relapse.

[00:15:45] Homeostasis occurs when the human body maintains a healthy balance among many physiological factors, levels of cortisol, adrenaline, neurotransmitters, immune factors, body ph, and other biological components dynamically fluctuate within acceptable ranges while adapting to a wide variety of conditions to maintain a healthy person. I call this healthy fluctuation of physiological factors, the individual adaptive mosaic or IAM. Some predisposing factors affecting the IAM include genetics, childhood experiences, diet, exercise, belief systems, coping mechanisms, lifestyle habits, and substance use. The healthy IAM can become dysregulated when repeatedly exposed to harmful conditions.

[00:16:42] Once the body is assaulted by an addictive substance or addictive behavior, the IAM becomes altered and transformed into a personal addictive mosaic now with imbalances that hinder normal functioning. The exact pathological pattern of hormones, neurotransmitters, and other biological parameters in the personal addictive mosaic, or PAM, differs from person to person and is most likely unique to each addict. But once formed the dysregulated components of a person's PAM can organize to trigger addictive behavior, even without the initial recognition or permission of the addict. The body now commands the mind and soul of the addict.

[00:17:36] Once the peculiar PAM develops, it never goes away, but can change in magnitude. It can be strong when the imbalances are great, intermediate, when the imbalances are mild or weak, when the imbalances are slight. A return to the addictive substance or addictive behavior invariably will stimulate the PAM and augment it to a level that causes the craving to return. And once the craving returns, the addict feels compelled to use again.

[00:18:09] The common pathway for all addiction is the dysregulation of homeostasis caused by the addictive behavior and the subsequent development of the PAM. The strength and persistence of the PAM depends on many factors. Using incites the PAM to a level of intensity that causes the craving. Strongly held emotions fuel the PAM, similar to the increase by the addiction itself.

[00:18:40] Excessive fear, anger, shame, guilt, fatigue, hunger, and feelings of isolation. Strengthen the PAM. Thoughts, feelings and actions associated with the addiction can also contribute to and sustain the dysregulated PAM, even when the addict is no longer using. The impact on the body from all these dysregulated factors can be debilitating. When the craving for the substance or addictive behavior returns, that craving becomes paramount in the life of the addict. They seek to use, even when using may bring heartache.

[00:19:20] The craving has rendered the addict defenseless against the next relapse. The body is now ruling the mind. Once this chronic and seemingly hopeless condition develops the ability for a wide variety of triggers to initiate the craving, the user is beyond human health. Only a higher power can relieve this vicious cycle.

[00:19:43] This would all be moot if the user never used, thereby altogether avoiding the physical aspect of the addiction. But life inevitably brings challenges that require advanced coping skills, and the use of a mood altering substance or action can seem to provide temporary relief, only to cause devastation or death in the long run.

[00:20:06] The object of the addiction is never sufficient to answer those challenges, whether addiction is caused by genetics, environment, experience, attitude, or some combination of these factors, addiction can develop in anyone and is overwhelming for everyone. Once addiction develops in an individual, it is ultimately an inside job.

[00:20:32] The pathological combination of many internal regulators and the aberrant biological responses to people, places, and things can stimulate the PAM to a level sufficient to trigger the craving in a relapse. Whether the triggers are incidental or intentional, their effect is the same. The seemingly hopeless mechanism places the addict beyond human health because they become defenseless against the craving. The question becomes, how does one reduce the PAM, thereby preventing it from causing a relapse? Divine intervention becomes necessary.

[00:21:10] I have heard a variation of this scenario in thousands of shares at 12 step meetings over the past 50 years, across many 12 step programs in multiple countries, in multiple languages, and by speakers of varying ages, both male and female. The principles in the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous can provide a solution as documented by millions who have followed their path to freedom. By surrendering one's will and one's life to the care of a power greater than oneself, many of the negative influences that created the PAM are lifted either immediately or gradually over time.

[00:21:50] Recovery is achieved by daily abstinence, sometimes on a minute to minute basis, and utilizing all of the assistance available beyond oneself. The power greater than oneself could be a sponsor, meetings, telephone calls, reading program literature, and eventually developing personal spirituality. All these actions involve reaching beyond one's personal borders to stop using and to prevent the PAM from escalating from a quiescent state to an active one.

[00:22:24] Of course not every person who has ever used an addictive substance or takes a drink is an addict, an unmanageable life as well as the inability to control the usage of the substance or behavior are two common findings in addiction.

[00:22:40] And now I wanna talk about nearbies. Those of us who are near people who are drinking, using, or acting out with a behavioral addiction.

[00:22:49] Spencer: I love that term nearbies.

[00:22:51] Adrienne: The dysregulation of homeostatic balance can also occur in family, friends, and others who are in relationship with an addict. These nearbies often develop their own individual distressed mosaic, 'cause they're not using, in response to the persistent distressed caused by the addict. Fear, anger, worry, approval seeking shame, guilt, and an overdeveloped sense of responsibility become reflected in the dysregulated IDM. Once this level of dysfunction occurs, nearbies can be affected without ever using a substance themselves. As they hopelessly try to save the user from the user's own self-destruction, nearbies suffer too.

[00:23:40] 12 step program tools can reduce the magnitude of the PAM and the IDM and prevent them from escalating to disabling levels.

[00:23:49] Program meetings and telephone calls to members between meetings provide the opportunity to share areas of distress before they increase or become chronic. Sponsorship offers an ongoing relationship to share experience, strength, and hope on a one-to-one basis with another recovering person. Program literature passes on the wisdom of members who have gone before. The focus, abstinence first and foremost, is honored and supported. It is not possible to directly regulate all of these internal signals involved in homeostasis or to instantly develop the emotional and spiritual competence to successfully deal with life's challenges.

[00:24:35] The 12 steps have been a roadmap for millions to find relief from their addictions by coming to depend on the power outside and greater than themselves. And these 12 steps have worked miraculously well for nearbies, too. So they may achieve freedom from the despair of trying unsuccessfully to change another person.

[00:24:55] Spencer: Oh my, yes. Trying unsuccessfully to change another person.

[00:24:59] Your book describes, your recovery in these five different areas, but for the purpose of the podcast, we like to focus onrecovering from the effects of somebody else's addictions, alcoholism, on your own life, or as you put it in the introduction, the confusion and distress from being in relationship with an alcoholic or other addict.Your language here captures it, I think just so well, confusion and distress. Definitely. I had those.

[00:25:31] So yeah, tell us a little bit of that part of your story.

[00:25:34] Adrienne: Okay, so I'm just gonna be just a couple of paragraphs from Principle one, conceding defeat around relationships with alcoholics.

[00:25:43] I was born into a family of alcoholics. My four grandparents died before I was born, but the effects of their alcoholism got passed down to their children and to us grandchildren many years later. I saw my biological father only once. The secrecy that cloaked my meeting him prevented me from knowing much about his life. Daddy, my stepfather was the father figure in our home from the time I was born. His alcoholism was not obvious. He maintained his stash of liquor, never drinking publicly. The smell of sherry or some other alcohol was on his breath almost daily. He was a sneak drinker trying to conceal his alcohol use from the rest of the family.

[00:26:33] And what I've come to see over time is that there seems to be four themes that are very consistent in an alcoholic or addict's family. And number one is identifying the alcoholic or the addict. It wasn't until I came into the program when I was 23 that I knew that my stepfather was an alcoholic. I thought sherry was the flavor of his toothpaste. 'cause I would smell it on his breath every day. But since I never saw him drink openly and only saw him drunk one day, and that was Christmas Eve after he had decorated the Christmas tree, he came down, he was next to a cot, drunk and the punch bowl of eggnog that was spiked with bourbon that we had every single Christmas that I can remember. It was like for guests that came over. No one person ever drank the whole thing. That night, he drank the whole thing. It's the only time I ever saw him drunk. So one challenge in these alcohol and addictive families is figuring out who the addict or the alcoholic is.

[00:27:32] Spencer: or possibly even just figuring out that there is a problem of alcoholism or addiction. I think that denial comes up pretty strongly for a lot of us. .

[00:27:44] Adrienne: Well, denial, I think, yeah, is rampant too, but in this case, I wasn't even denying it. I just didn't really see it. I did have another example, which was my mother's brother. And he was a weekend warrior, so he would come home every Friday night and hand my mom his part of the finances for the week, and then he'd go out Friday night and drink and he'd drink all weekend and somehow he'd get it together by Sunday evening and he'd get back home Sunday. Either staggering or brought by the police or we'd have to retrieve him from the emergency room 'cause he never drove a car. He only rode a bike. And that makes it very tricky when you're drunk. So he was obvious and I knew that he was an alcoholic, but I didn't know what all the extent of that diagnosis.

[00:28:31] But other than him, I wouldn't have thought. If he hadn't come to live with us, there was no other drinking in our home. So my mother drank two or three drinks a year when she went to a testimonial dinner or something like that, but no one else was drinking until of us children, my brothers matured to the time that they became adolescents and then they started drinking as well, but not falling down drunk, but drinking on a daily basis.

[00:29:00] So yes, you're right, identifying the user, and then if it's in front of you and you just don't wanna say it's alcoholism, then, that's difficult too.

[00:29:08] The second issue that I had to suffer through, was believing the lies. And there are lies. There are lies about how much people drink. In my family, there were lies about finances, about who was married when, to whom and who was conceived by what father. I mean, We all knew the mother that delivered us because it's a hospital record. Took a long time for, my mother like. Into her seventies to really admit that we, three natural kids, two had one father and one had a different father. And so, the lies, the lies, the lies, the lies.

[00:29:46] And then the third thing that I've seen is being forced to succumb to the control. I was not a party liner in my family. And if I had a differing opinion, or a different way of going about something, it was squashed. So I was very focused, thank God, from an early age on academics, even though I was truant from high school for many, many days. But I always knew education was important.

[00:30:14] And when I tried to tutor my younger brother, who seven years younger than me, my mother said, you, you don't have to make him do his homework. Who do you think you are? Later, as things unrolled in his life, he got in more and more trouble and incarcerations. And I bet, tutoring him at that time would've been a very good idea. But I, I had to succumb to the family role she was in charge and who was I to buck that.

[00:30:39] So we have identifying the user, believing the lies, succumbing to control, and then suffering through the secrets. The lies are at least some attempt on their part to make things right. But the secrets are things that just didn't even come to surface until many years down the road.

[00:30:57] And I've just heard this, over and over again in people's lives, in the rooms, thatit takes a program, and a lot of courage to ferrit out, what's really true, and I certainly had my challenges with that. Where I had to go to my mother's other brother, who lived in a different state at one time and drove there and said, there's certain things about your childhood, my mother's childhood that I need to know, because I keep hearing these conflicting versions of it. And I can remember his wife almost turned white. It's like she knew what the deal was, and my uncle said, no, Adrienne drove here. I'm going to tell her. And my aunt just went over and sat on the side and my uncle told me the truthand my mother never liked that brother. So here we go. The family dynamics are very interesting.

[00:31:53] Spencer: he was willing to tell the truth. Huh

[00:31:56] Adrienne: And he got out of his family when he was an adolescent. I think he was 14 or 16 when he left because he couldn't deal with his mother's drinking. She died at age 52 from cirrhosis of the liver, not cancer like my mom always told me.

[00:32:11] Spencer: The lies again.

[00:32:13] Adrienne: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:15] What brought you into recovery in that aspect of your life? The relationships with alcoholics and addicts. When I was 22 and had finished my bachelor's degree, I was accepted into a graduate program. And on the eve of my leaving the family compound and going off to graduate school, where I was going to get married student housing, although I was divorced at that time, I had a child, who was three. So they said you can have married student housing, and there's some support things around that where they have babysitters and little preschool stuff. And I was really looking forward to it.

[00:32:52] I would say two weeks before the move, my mother came up to me and said, we're losing the house. And I said, shock to me. Because there was a crack in the furnace and she couldn't afford to get the crack in the furnace fixed. So now she was losing the house and she had to come and move in with me in graduate school. And my younger brother, who was really a foster kid who came into our family when he was two months old, we kept him and we treated him like a, an equal sibling, which was fine.

[00:33:23] So my younger brother, and my mom now had to go to graduate school with me and she said, I can at least take care of your daughter while you're in class.and I didn't want that to happen, but it happened. And when the four of us got there, it was the first time that I saw her pathology because it had always been opposed by her work life. She always worked, she had a job. So being at her job, she was functional and I never caught the full brunt of her behavior. But now she wasn't working. I was supporting four people at 22 years old, working full time and going to graduate school full time and her behavior, her personality disorders just flourished. And this was before I was in medical school. I didn't really understand what was happening. She ended up staying with me two years. And at the end of those two years, I'm glad I'm not bald because I was ready to pull every strand of hair out. And then she started dating an active alcoholic. And of course trying to help him.

[00:34:30] I, I went to a church one night. I remember this, and I just went to cry. It was a way to get away from her, to get away from him who was visiting and dating my mother from my graduate student apartment. I went to this church and I just needed to cry. And as I was leaving the church, there are these pamphlets of AA that were in a rack at the entrance, and I picked it up for him, because I thought they were gonna get killed in a car accident, the way he was drinking and driving her around.

[00:34:58] And I read about AA and I contacted, I guess the World Service Office. This is like 1972. They mailed me some pamphlets and they said, well, you know, there's this other program called Al-Anon. And I said, what's that? And 53 and a half years later, I know what it is. This was in rural New Jersey, and when I went to my first Al-Anon meeting, it was in, she's since passed away, and you'll never know who she is. It was in Betty's basement. She and I were the Al-Anon meeting. It was a bit like the blind leading the blind. All we had was the AA big book and ODAT. That's all.

[00:35:38] And we tried to figure out how we were gonna be a comfort to each other and work these steps and figure it out. We met every Tuesday night in her basement. We called in between, we had to watch our phone bills, 'cause you got charged by phone call. And finally I said, we need more help. So we started driving into New York to go to meetings that were more mature. Every meeting was more mature than ours.

[00:36:02] And from the New York meetings we started to get a more rounded support from what Al-Anon could really help with. Betty was my sponsor for 22 years. She never drove, so I had to drive a half an hour to pick her up, going in the wrong direction. Then I would drive into New York, which would take an hour and a half from her place. And then we go to the meeting and then I have to drive her all the way back home. And then I'd drive a half an hour back to me. And I did it every week. And then sometimes we would do it twice a week. And that's. That's how I got, hooked on Al-Anon.

[00:36:38] Spencer: You obviously were strongly motivated to do that.

[00:36:42] Adrienne: I don't like to hurt. I don't like to hurt. And was in graduate school, the studies were demanding. I was working full time, I was going to school full time. And my mother was sabotaging me with my own daughter, thinking now she's my daughter's mother. And it got to the point where I had to take my daughter to a neurological institute, to have her evaluated because my daughter's behavior changed so radically.

[00:37:06] And thank God the evaluation was normal. But as a graduate student, I had to pay $500 for that evaluation and was all stuff my mother had put in her head, discussed with her. And then I moved out and I got two apartments and paid for them both, but at least I got her away from my daughter.

[00:37:26] Spencer: families, I know I've heard it only takes two people to make a meeting.

[00:37:33] Adrienne: Yeah, literally. Literally for months

[00:37:37] Spencer: That was what you had back then. Wow.

[00:37:40] Adrienne: Yeah.

[00:37:41] Spencer: Has your work with the 12 steps in this context, has it led to a better understanding, of a better relationship with, or more clarity about relationship with the other people in your family where the addiction was rampant or the reaction to addiction was rampant.

[00:38:00] Adrienne: Yeah. even years after I came into the program, I was still very supportive of other people in my family, but I had to learn detachment and put some distance between us. There was a time when younger members of my family, my brother, my nephew, et cetera, who were both addicts, were continuing to get into trouble with the law. I had to step back and draw a line in the sand. In order for me to go to medical school, 'cause my entire family was against it, that's breaking out of the family system big time. I left my family for 18 years. No Mother's day, no Christmas, no Thanksgiving, zero contact. I had my daughter, but my family of origin, my sister.

[00:38:44] I didn't set out for it to be 18 years, but I had to do two years of pre-med sciences, four years of medical school, five years of a residency, an 11 year training. and I could never have done it with them, climbing on my back all the time.

[00:38:57] And when I went back after 18 years, I, well, let me just say, before that 18 years, I took all of the addicts in my family one by one to a 12 step meeting. And they all agreed to come to one. And at the end of that meeting they said, it's not for me. And there was no argument on my part. And I felt I've done my job, I've introduced them that there is help available. And that was it. And then I left for 18 years.

[00:39:28] Spencer: Yeah. I feel like that aligns well with our tradition of attraction rather than promotion. If you don't know something's there, it's really hard to be attracted to it. So you did that, but then you didn't push it.

[00:39:44] Adrienne: Yeah, that was it.

[00:39:45] Spencer: I was reading through the book and I got to the inventory chapter. You speak in there about inventorying your assets as well as your liabilities. And just wondered,why you felt that was really important.

[00:40:01] Adrienne: Betty was again, my sponsor for 22 years, I did my first fourth step with her after I had been in maybe a year. And I looked at the AA big book and they have one format there. And as I was starting to write down. the resentment, I wasn't particularly resentful and still am not to this day. I tell people I wasn't born with the gene for resentment, but fear and shame were like off the Richter scale for me then there were these incidents that maybe I couldn't characterize, so generally as fear of shame. But I start telling Betty these things. And she looked at me and she said, well, you know, you really have a lot of good points too. It's like, it just didn't even occur to me and I said, oh, okay, let me think about that. And when I thought about it, some of my strongestassets are perseverance, integrity. Even though, you know, in my liability thing, we stole a bunch of stuff as teenagers, but that didn't last long.

[00:41:06] But perseverance, hopefulness, open-mindedness. These are all assets that didn't erase the liabilities, but it gave me something to counter them to some extent. I think it's very important. You know, there's some bad in the best of us and there's some good in the worst of us, and being able to at least identify it, and nurture or focus on what you want to grow, was really helpful. And finally I moved through the shame and the fear and lived free from those for today. Thanks to the minister who took me through what I consider my last fourth step inventory, which was in December of 2002.

[00:41:49] I did quite an extensive writing of all my fears, all my areas of shame, and one of the biggest areas of shame was that I was sexually abused by this stepfather who was an alcoholic for two years before I entered school. I always thought it was my fault. What did I do to cause this person who's my father to do this horrible thing? It had to be my fault. I had to have provoked it in some way.

[00:42:19] And it's the one area that I am at odds with the program. When they say, and maybe the big book says this too, of aa,when we are angry or upset about something, we always have some responsibility, even if it's 1%. It took me many years of counseling to understand that in the molesting I had zero, zero responsibility. I had to forge down that road pretty hard because, I was faithful to the program and it's that's not what I've been taught all these years. But I can assure people that in child sexual abuse, it is never the child's fault. And that's important for me to say. It's way beyond the 12 step realm of purview.

[00:43:03] Spencer: This is where outside help could be helpful. Yes.

[00:43:06] Adrienne: Yeah. And post-traumatic stress disorder is a real diagnosis. It has many physiological components to it, and it's best evaluated and treated under the care of a licensed professional. So, I, I just wanna put that over on a side shelf.

[00:43:24] Spencer: Yeah. Thank you.

[00:43:26] Could you talk about the two liabilities that you were introduced to, of soul ties and false burden bearing, because while the descriptions made sense to me, I'd never heard actually those terms before.

[00:43:41] Adrienne: And I had never heard them either before September of 2002, when I did this extensive fourth step inventory with a minister, who's situated in Alaska. So it's four hour time difference from New York, and I had heard about him and his reputation for leading people through physical healings.

[00:44:06] I had been going through a physical medical problem at the time, but it fits so well into my recovery from the profound influences my alcoholic family had. I decided I wanted to go through this with him too. So he introduced, so it's a spiritual thing, maybe a little bit of a religious thing, but here we go.

[00:44:28] Soul tie, sins I identified because I really believed at the time, even with many years in the program that my spiritual development. Included bringing other people along with me. So it's almost like my soul was supposed to be tied to theirs. And in the seventies, you might remember this, there was a popular saying going around the states that none of us makes it until we all make it.

[00:45:00] And boy was that not the way I have since learned to, apply the program to my own life. The soul tie sins were, I was very much tied to my mom, who had many spiritual slash social issues that were very obvious in terms of adultery, in terms of stealing things. And she would always say to me, don't do as I do, do as I say. Even as an adolescent, I understood the hypocrisy in that. And so one of my sub goals was, 'cause my mother wasn't the drinker, or an addict in any way, but she was an A COA. She was, the daughter, the oldest child of a mother who died at age 52 from cirrhosis of the liver. My mom always said her mom died from cancer, so there was the shame in the alcoholism there.

[00:45:53] Plus my mother had to assume the parental role in the family to take care of the younger siblings. So the soul tie sin, I wanted my mother to, in quote, make it whatever that meant to me at the time. To not be depressed, to not be overburdened by the family challenges, and to live by spiritual principles, which I had learned in the program, but I hoped that she might learn by going to church. That's what the soul tie sins meant for me.

[00:46:23] Now, the false burden bearing, it shifts from the soul tie sins as a philosophy to the false burden bearing as a set of actions. And I was in quote, determined to lead the rest of my family into 12 step recovery . I took each one of them to a meeting and they went to one meeting, and then after the meeting they kind of politely said, thank you, but it's not for me, and never went back. So that's the false burden bearing, really believing it was my responsibility for them to find recovery.

[00:46:59] Those are huge liabilities that I had to pray through, surrender through the rest of the steps, and walk out the other side of and more embrace the program's philosophy to keep the focus on myself. I'm only responsible for who I am, to learn how to detach so other people could be responsible for the consequences, their action. And not to create a crisis and not to avoid a crisis if it's in the natural course of events. And in my family, there were many crises in the natural course of events, many.

[00:47:36] Spencer: Oh boy. yeah, I like this. You wrote, false burden bearing includes assuming the emotional, spiritual, and or financial responsibility for another, when I had no responsibility for that person at all.

[00:47:52] It seems similar to the soul tie sins idea, but. I guess one of them is. I need you to come along with me so that I'm okay, and the other is I need to help you so that you're okay.

[00:48:07] Adrienne: Well, I wanted someone to come along with me. You know, it's, it's lonely being a lone wolf. It's lonely being the only one.

[00:48:14] Spencer: Yeah, and I see both of these, from my perspective, at least, as areas in which I don't have correct boundaries. I don't have boundaries that are good for me for my, self-respect and serenity and so on.

[00:48:29] Adrienne: Yeah, that's for sure. There were no boundaries. Yeah, you're right. That's a good perspective.

[00:48:36] Spencer: I hadn't heard those terms before, and I like the way it encapsulates those aspects of the way in which I was enmeshed with other people in the past.

[00:48:47] At the end of the book, you've got a section of inspirational readings that you wrote. and I wondered if you'd like to share a couple of those with us.

[00:48:59] Adrienne: Yes, I would because these are things, some of them are, very original with me, which, the quotations in the back will show. and others are maybe pieces of things I've learned along the way that we don't find in program literature anywhere else.

[00:49:12] I'm gonna read one, which is discipline takes no account of feelings.

[00:49:18] Much of the world's work is performed by people who might not feel like going to work on a particular day, but they go to work, perform their duties, and get the job done. They don't always rely on motivation. The discipline of performing the task required by their jobs causes them to act responsibly, even though they might not feel like it.

[00:49:43] Recovery requires us to take actions we might not feel like taking on a particular day beyond the fundamental decision to abstain from an addictive substance or behavior. The discipline of participating in program related activities is an integral part of our recovery, determining a minimum number of meetings to attend each week. Daily reading of program slash spiritual literature, connecting with a sponsor, practicing rigorous honesty, working the steps and writing down our feelings when they seem out of kilter are disciplines that can take us father and father away from an addictive act.

[00:50:27] We may not always feel like taking the actions that help us recover, but we will always feel better after we take those actions.

[00:50:36] Spencer: Thank you. ,

[00:50:36] Adrienne: I got a couple more. You ready for the next one? I love this one. Dreams delayed. Are not dreams denied.

[00:50:45] I learned how to play basketball when I was 13 years old, just entering seventh grade. By the end of the school year, I was voted most valuable player. My coach was stunned by my performance and wanted me to become a professional basketball player.

[00:50:59] I was thrilled and ready to work hard to someday wear the United States jacket in an international basketball competition. But the very next year, I was sidelined with an eye condition that may or may not have been legitimate. Either way, my mother prohibited me from playing the sport I loved and excelled in.

[00:51:23] I later learned that my eye condition had been present since birth and did not require any restriction of my activity or any treatment. But my opportunity to play basketball had passed. My basketball life was over. That was the end of my dream.

[00:51:41] I've enjoyed many sports over the years, but always felt a bit melancholy that I had not gone professional in basketball and enjoyed the travel and camaraderie of being a member of a national team. Visions of that prized US jacket still danced in my head.

[00:52:00] When I retired from work, I chose tennis as my new sport. Some years earlier, I had overcome an illness that disabled me and landed me in a wheelchair. I underwent 19 months of comprehensive physical therapy to learn how to walk again. By the time I retired, I was fine and set out to train as a senior tennis player. My ultimate goal: to be selected to play on a national senior tennis team and represent the United States in international competition. 60 years after giving up basketball, I proudly wore the United States jacket as I played on the United States team in an international tennis tournament in Austria.

[00:52:47] Spencer: Dreams delayed are not dreams denied. Yeah.

[00:52:50] Adrienne: Character versus behavior.

[00:52:53] There's a difference between character and behavior. Character is the sum of the spiritual values a person holds dear. Honesty, service, compassion, integrity, love, caring to name a few. These fundamentals help shape a person's soul.

[00:53:11] Behavior, actions we take as we interface with the world, can be consistent with our spiritual values or not. Being human, our behavior can fall short of our spiritual ideals, causing an unsettling in our soul that cannot be calmed by denial, excuses, justification, addictive substances, or addictive behavior.

[00:53:34] The challenge is to bring our behavior more consistently in line with the character values we hold dear. We can stop those unwanted behaviors, make amends for the harm we have caused others, and substitute different behaviors that empower us.

[00:53:51] Regarding another person, it takes time to discern another's character unless they do something flagrant to reveal a personality trait that is unacceptable to us. Only by observing behavior over time can we begin to surmise the breadth and depth of someone else's spiritual values. I have often looked at someone's behavior and misinterpreted it for their character. I made excuses for them dismissing the objectional behavior as a rare exception, rather than accepting it as a consistent, undesirable part of who that person is. My misunderstanding usually caused me pain because I underestimated their lack of spiritual development.

[00:54:33] At any time in our lives, we can redefine our character values and begin to act in accordance with them.

[00:54:41] Spencer: Thank you for those readings and in the book there are many more.

[00:54:45] Adrienne: There are about 25 or so. Yeah.

[00:54:47] Spencer: Which brings me to, I guess, my final question for today, which is, how can listeners find your book?

[00:54:54] Adrienne: My book is listed on two major sites. One is amazon.com, and the other is Barnes and noble.com. In France and probably other European countries, it's listed on Amazon dot fr.

[00:55:13] Spencer: Or whatever the Amazon site is for your country, I guess.

[00:55:17] I will put a link to Amazon and Barnes and Noble in the show notes. if you're outside the us,that'll probably eventually take you to the place you need to be in your country. Those will be in the notes at the recovery show slash 4 4 2.

[00:55:34] We will take a short break and then, come back to our lives in recovery, where we talk about how recovery is working in our daily lives.

Song 1

[00:55:41] Spencer: I did ask you to bring some music and you came through. What was the first song that you chose

[00:55:48] Adrienne: The first one was a song I relied on in 1973, just one year after I came into the program. And that's Keep The Fire by Kenny Loggins.

Our Lives in Recovery

[00:56:06] Spencer: In this section of the podcast we talk about our lives in recovery. How have we experienced recovery recently?

[00:56:13] What I'm thinking about is, I've been diagnosed with a particular sort of chronic medical condition for several years now, and my doctor and I are working together to ameliorate it, mitigate it, keep it under control, whatever term you think is appropriate.

[00:56:29] I had an appointment recently, you know, take blood, get new measurements, see how we're doing. Lo and behold, and I always come into these with some trepidation. I feel like I haven't been working my physical recovery program as hard as I should, et cetera, et cetera. There's always the, you're not good enough feeling going on there. He took the measurements and I'm doing fine. Like, okay, don't borrow trouble from the future.

[00:56:58] This is what my program keeps telling me, don't borrow trouble from the future. Don't live in the wreckage of the future. Right.Obviously I still have some of that going on. I wasn't too worried, but I was a little bit. While I was there, because once you got the guy's attention, you ask about other things and I asked him about another condition, which it turns out he had sent me a letter on my portal, like back in the summer and I had missed it. He says, yeah, I thought we did that. I'm like, oh, look at that. So we did. He said, well. There's a couple of options for treating this. One of them is an oral medication that you take for 12 weeks, and the other is a topical medication that you have to do for a year, and I said, let's go with the 12 week solution. But that particular drug has some potential side effects, and so I need to make some behavioral changes. I should make some behavioral changes to minimize the chance of those side effects. And to be honest, I'm having trouble with making those changes and I have to, go back, maybe every day, and ask my higher power for help with that. It's coming through. I can't make a sudden change in behavior right away and have it stick. It always takes some time. We'll see how it goes.

[00:58:17] So, I guess my life in recovery right now is I'm struggling with a couple of things that I thought I was doing better at, but my higher power is showing me that I still need to be asking for help with them.

[00:58:28] There was another thing. I was thinking about this when you were talking about dreams delayed. An experience that I had, it was some years ago now. I was never a very athletic person. My least favorite day in school was the day when we did the president's physical fitness test. Life went on.I just was not completely sedentary, but not very active either. I think sometime around when I was in my late fifties, I decided, I really need to be doing some regular exercise, regular aerobic exercise in particular, 'cause I'm getting older and things are slowing down. So I started, I started running. And mostly I was running on a treadmill, and then I started running in the neighborhood and I discovered that running for the same amount of time at the same speed in the neighborhood was harder than running on the treadmill, which I don't completely understand, but that's what it is. Every year there's a particular run, which is a half marathon, a 10 K, and a 5K. And I thought, I could probably do a 5K. So I started training for it. I figured out what the route for the run was that year and practiced on that route, which was a lot hillier than where I had been running before. I felt like I was doing okay and I would make it to the end of the run probably with some walking,without embarrassing myself too badly. I discovered that when there's competition, it motivates me. At the age of 62, I ran my first and so far only, 5K run. and did a personal best time on it as well. So I felt pretty good about that. And then I had neck surgery and I couldn't run for a while and I haven't gotten back to it since, which was, that's life. It did remind me that just because I thought I was past being able to do something I'm not,and that's pretty amazing. So that's what I've got. How's your life in recovery these days?

[01:00:34] Adrienne: My life in recovery is glorious. It's glorious. I developed some very comprehensive health practices back in 1978, when I was switching from being a teacher to going to medical school late in life at 37 years old. And, you know, people were telling me, you can't do it. It's too old, you'll never get accepted. And, it was something I felt called to do. So I studied very hard and I got accepted at 11 US schools.So dreams delayed are not dreams denied .

[01:01:07] That switch in career came after I was disabled by a chemical poisoning, and it really changed my life and changed my health habits. I went to some very basic good health habits I've been doing since 1978, which is eating all organic foods, getting exercise all the time, and reducing the amount of ambient chemicals in my environment in terms of no more makeup, or non-toxic cleaning products. I mean a very, very comprehensive, overhaul because I had been so sick.

[01:01:38] So I thought the sickness was the worst thing that happened to me in a long time, but it ended up spawning a whole new career in medicine, and health that's outstanding, really. A little surprising, but,I'll take it.

[01:01:51] And tennis became, and it still is a very focal part of my life. I play four or five hours a week. I'm ranked in the United States, I'm ranked in Europe, and it's funny in a way because I'm a senior, I'm well a senior. and there are players that are better than I, and there are players who are not better than I. And I don't judge. When I first started playing on the senior tour, everyone beat me. If you know tennis scores, six Love, six love. And I didn't care because I showed up. I did my best. And the women are so nice and so kind. They'd been playing for 50, 60 years. They were on the junior circuit. After they beat me, they would give me tips on how to perform, et cetera. And I'd incorporate those tips and the next time I'd do a little bit better and a little bit better.

[01:02:39] And over the course of, five or six years, I won second place in singles in a tournament, and third place in doubles in the same tournament. I don't get angry when I make a bad shot because I always do my best. And I love the company and there's just no judgment. This is who I am. I haven't played 70 years or 60 years, and I'm having a good time.

[01:03:01] Spencer: Reminds me of, our, progress, not perfection or as I like to say, practice makes progress.

[01:03:07] Adrienne: Yeah.

[01:03:08] Spencer: Somebody else taught that one to me. I did not make that up.

[01:03:11] Adrienne: I like it. Jot that one down.

[01:03:13] Spencer: Yeah. Practice makes progress.

[01:03:17] Adrienne: Yes.

[01:03:19] Spencer: Speaking of practice, looking forward in the podcast, I actually was just looking at my schedule and I've got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 recordings coming up in the month of November.So there's some stuff coming, one of the later ones, but this is one that I think, might speak to a lot of people is, grief in recovery. In particular, this person wants to talk about how we process our grief when the alcoholic is no longer in our life. And we're in recovery. I'm not saying it as well as he did, but we'll get there. I've got also workaholism or workaholics anonymous, as an adjunct to Al-Anon, I guess. Patrick and I are gonna start a series on the traditions with tradition one. It's gonna be a very podcast full month. and I'm gonna have to step up my game, so that's a good thing.

[01:04:21] Adrienne: You've got some wonderful topics, yeah.

[01:04:23] Spencer: Oh yeah. We do welcome your thoughts. You can join our conversation. Leave us a voicemail or send us an email with your feedback or your questions. And Adrienne, how can people send us feedback?

[01:04:35] Adrienne: You can send a voice memo or email to feedback at the recovery dot show. Or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 7 3 4 7 0 7 8 7 9 5. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer.

[01:05:02] We'd love to hear from you. Share your experience, strength, and hope, or questions about today's topic of 50 years of 12 Step recovery, or any of our upcoming topics, including grief in recovery. If you have a topic you'd like us to talk about, let us know.

[01:05:20] If you would like advance notice for some of our topics so that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback at the recovery dot show. Put email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.

[01:05:39] Spencer, where can our listeners find out more about the recovery show?

[01:05:43] Spencer: Yeah, that would be our website. Which is the recovery dot show, if you hadn't guessed that already. Where we have notes for each episode. Those notes include links to, in this case, your book, 50 Years of 12 Step Recovery. There will also be videos for the music that Adrienne chose. There are also links to some other recovery podcasts and websites. And as I mentioned, I think last episode, I now have a list of the top 10 most listened to episodes from the 440 something. That we have put out so far.

[01:06:21] Adrienne: Wow. 440 podcast is an incredible accomplishment, Spencer, and good for you for signing onto this and delivering the message and the hope of recovery to so many people.

[01:06:35] Spencer: One episode at a time. That's how it happens.

Song 2

[01:06:39] Spencer: What is your second song that you chose?

[01:06:42] Adrienne: My second song is sung by Diana Ross, It's My Turn.

[01:06:47] Spencer: How does this song speak to your recovery?

[01:06:49] Adrienne: it spoke to mine when I really focused in on setting and honoring my own goals. Letting my family members and others that I was involved with make their own goals and achieve them or not. And not turning and walking away, but certainly refocusing my attention away from my hopes and dreams for them, to my hopes and dreams for myself.

Listener Feedback

[01:07:27] Spencer: And now let's hear from you.

[01:07:29] Simon wrote, I've been going to Al-Anon since the early 1990s. I went to my first open meeting with a friend who was in AA. The room belonged to a near by church. It was below ground level, a bit damp, but the spirits of those who sat around the table on which were slogan notices and literature were anything but damp, warm, determined, human, and humorous.

[01:07:52] I had tried everything I could to stop my father drinking. I had no great expectation of Al-Anon, in all honesty. I might not have come back had I not heard the injunction to attend six meetings before deciding. But I liked the warmth in spite of the very desperate circumstances most. Most there were living with alcoholic partners. That was a big shock to me. Their domestic situation was worse than mine, and yet they found humor and fellowship, in spite of this. I'd tried everything else and left thinking, well, even if dad doesn't stop, I can at least experience some more of whatever that was.

[01:08:27] Dad didn't stop and I didn't stop going to meetings.

[01:08:31] From Simon F in London, England.

[01:08:33] Thank you for writing Simon. Many of us have found. A similar experience. Yeah.

[01:08:40] Anita writes, good morning, Spencer. About a month or so ago, I was listening to your show, Recovering Couples Anonymous Healing A Relationship, episode four 40. I shared it with my husband. This was our first knowledge of RCA's existence.

[01:08:55] This intro into RCA lit a spark in me that is continuing to grow. I've shared episode four 40 with about a dozen other couples. No one, even those with over 30 years in AA or Al-Anon had ever heard of RCA. So I began to research RCA, found their website, ordered literature, emailed RCAs WSO, and listened to another podcast I found. My husband and I have attended slash participated in two Zoom meetings in the past 10 days.

[01:09:25] Last Saturday, four couples joined us at our home. We discussed all the above and are planning to all attend Zoom meetings on our own, then meet again in January. We also discussed a possible road trip to the only meeting in Michigan, which is in Hudsonville near Grand Rapids. I've sent an email to the contact there.

[01:09:44] What I'd like to ask you, are you aware of any similar activities in the area?

[01:09:50] To which I have to answer? Uh, no, I'm not actually.

[01:09:54] And two, can you put me in contact with the guest speaker, Valerie, for episode four 40?

[01:09:59] I've reached out to Valerie to get in contact with Anita. So hopefully that happens.

[01:10:04] Anita continues: what I've learned from WSO's reply and from a couple of long timers from the Saturday Night Zoom we attended:

[01:10:12] One: for long time RCA members. Try the Trailblazers meeting. You can find this on the RCA website meetings Tab on Sunday, one to two 30 Eastern Standard time in Copenhagen, Denmark.

[01:10:27] Before considering a startup meeting, we need to grow in the RCA program by attending existing meetings, obtaining a couple sponsor, and including some longtime members in the new startup meeting. I thought this was all sound advice.

[01:10:42] Three. John K, a longtime rcA member was a speaker on a podcast, Rico 12, RECO 12, which I'm not familiar with. I'll have to check it out. Episode 238. I've just listened and thought you might want to as well. John K would make another great guest speaker on your show.

[01:11:02] That's it for now. Hope today reveals unexpected delights.

[01:11:06] In service, Anita.

[01:11:09] Thank you for sharing that, Anita. I do remember looking up, on the RCA website for meetings and saying, yeah, one in Michigan, so far away.

[01:11:17] But yeah, some good stuff there. I'll try to get a link to this podcast, Reco12. And another link to the RCA website.

[01:11:26] Natalie wrote, I listened to a deep dive into sharing in meetings show number 4 0 8 today when I was looking for resources for a spring workshop for our Al-Anon group. I'd love to have a meeting where we take a deep dive into sharing, and you hit all the topics we could learn from.

[01:11:42] I don't have the depth of practice to speak about this. I also have a lot to learn. So I was wondering how can I translate this information into a workshop? Do you or your guests ever lead discussions either in person or virtually for Al-Anon workshops?

[01:11:58] That was episode 4 0 8. A deep dive into sharing in meetings with Heather.

[01:12:03] Natalie finishes, thank you for any information you can provide.

[01:12:07] I did a couple of things. I reached out to Heather for her permission to share the notes that we used when we recorded that episode 4 0 8. Which she granted, and I forwarded those notes to Natalie and then I wrote,

[01:12:22] I can think of a few ways to structure such a workshop, which entail varying amounts of work on your part. And to me the word workshop implies some amount of audience participation. It's not just a presentation or a, a set of speakers. But you know, that's me. I suggested three formats.

[01:12:44] One, choose three to four people to share as a panel each talking about their experiences sharing in meetings, and leave time for questions at the end, which the panelists can then address as they wish.

[01:12:57] Second, have a few people, maybe two or three each share. Then invite participants to each give a short share two to three minutes.

[01:13:07] And third, which is maybe more of what you might think of as a workshop, but also is more work on your part. Prepare a study, guide a page or two. No more than that, I would say with prompts or questions. Hand it out to the participants. You could start with a short lead from somebody and then ask participants to break into small groups and have a discussion using the study guide and their own experience. Leave time at the end for each group to share highlights of their discussion.

[01:13:40] I said, hope that helps spark ideas for you.

[01:13:43] I'll be interested to hear from Natalie what they did .

[01:13:46] Mary wrote, dear Spencer, I have gained so much serenity and knowledge from your podcasts. They're very professionally done and available any time one needs to listen. Thank you for your hard work and dedication to your podcasts.

[01:14:00] I suggest a podcast about diseases caused by alcohol. My qualifier has Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome, and I was clueless when symptoms began. I also had never heard of it and had no idea alcohol could destroy nerves. Thank you for considering this signed, Mary.

[01:14:18] So I think about the mission of the podcast, which is to provide a place for us to share our experience, strength, and hope in living with, recovering from the effects of somebody else's alcoholism or addiction on our lives. Clearly if our loved one comes down with a serious disease as a result of their addiction, their alcoholism, it will have an effect on us. I need to think about how this fits into that mission, that purpose. I think it could. Thanks for writing, Mary. Thanks for prompting me to think.

Thank you, Adrienne

[01:15:02] Spencer: Adrienne, thank you for joining me today for a really inspiring and scintillating conversation on your 50 years, 50 plus years now of 12 step recovery.

[01:15:12] Adrienne: It was my pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me to be one of your guests.

[01:15:17] Spencer: Thank you for reaching out, because that's the way that I get a lot of my guests is somebody reaches out to me and says, I'd like to talk about this, and I say, yes, let's talk about that.

Song 3

[01:15:28] Adrienne: Okay.

[01:15:28] and then our last song selection, the third, is sung by Celine Dion and Andrea Bocelli, and the song is entitled The Prayer. I use this as an 11th step, continually asking for guidance from my higher power and for him to see in places that I can't see and to guide me in places that I need to be guided, as I live out my life, day by day.

Outro

[01:16:01] Spencer: Thank you for listening and please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you're facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. Understanding love and peace, grow in you one day at a time.