Intro

[00:00:01] Brenda W: After coming to Al-Anon and realizing that I don't have to continue the same patterns, I started looking for people that had actual compatibility with me and with my values and with my goals.

[00:00:15]

[00:00:16] Spencer: Welcome to episode 441 of the Recovery Show.

[00:00:20] This episode is brought to you by Drew, David, Maureen, Michelle, and Melanie. They used the donation button on our website. Thank you, Drew, David, Maureen, Michelle, and Melanie for your generous contributions. This episode is for you.

[00:00:35] We are friends and family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction, understand as perhaps a few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:52] Brenda W: Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program. During the show, we'll share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you will find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:01:09] Spencer: My name is Spencer. I am your host today and joining me today is Brenda. Welcome to the Recovery Show, Brenda.

[00:01:16] Brenda W: Thank you for having me.

Dating and Recovery

[00:01:18] Spencer: I had a few requests from listeners for a show about dating and recovery. I had to say I have zero experience with this, since I've been married for 40 something years. And I've been in recovery for 20 something years, so obviously, maybe not obviously, but I did not do any dating while I was in recovery. And it was a long time before I came to recovery, the last time that I really dated. So I had to reach out and you wrote to me and said, yes, I will step up here and share my experience, strength, and hope about what dating was like before and what it's like now. And maybe we get a little bit of, what brought you here as well.

[00:02:05] Brenda W: Yes. Yeah, it was a little bit of an, impulsive decision to reach out to you. But in the moment, listening to that episode where the listener had asked for it, I just felt like it was time to help and time to jump in. I have experience with it and, I was like, well, I may not be perfect and I know this is only my experience, but if other listeners are asking for it, I try to think like, I would also like to be on the other end, when I'm looking for something, I would like for there to be resources, so. Hearing someone else's story is always helpful. I guess I can be the one this time.

[00:02:34] Spencer: Let's open with the reading.

[00:02:36] Brenda W: yes. So the reading, I selected is in Courage to Change. it's from December 28th and it's on page 363 the reading says, one effect of alcoholism is that many of us are reluctant to get close to people. We have learned that it is not safe to trust, to reveal too much, to care deeply, yet we often wish we could experience closer more loving relationships. Al-Anon suggests a gentle way of approaching this goal: sponsorship.

[00:03:03] By asking someone to sponsor me, I express a willingness to experience more intimate relationships. When he or she is there for me, returning my calls, offering support, caring. I develop a basis for trust. I realize that my sponsor also has a life and that sometimes he or she will not be available. Because our relationship shows me that people can be reliable and better able to reach out to others in the fellowship.

[00:03:25] My sponsor helps me learn to receive love, but I also learn about giving. Someone who demonstrates unconditional love and still takes care of his or her own needs, and who offers support without telling me what to do can be a wonderful role model. I can best put what I learn into practice by passing it on.

[00:03:42] And today's reminder, intimacy can be one of life's great gifts. I will avail myself of its benefits by reaching out to an Al-Anon friend today. And there's a quote at the end from Sponsorship –What It's All About, that says, the interchange between sponsor and sponsored is a form of communication that will nourish both of you.

[00:03:59] Spencer: I'm gonna guess that there might be something in your story about sponsorship as well.

[00:04:06] Brenda W: Yes. there absolutely will be. Sponsorship was a big part of the recovery for me and especially when it came to improving my relationships, both romantic relationships and friendships and family members and coworkers even. Yeah, sponsorship is great. It's a great tool to utilize.

[00:04:23] Spencer: Let's start with what was it like before?

[00:04:26] Brenda W: Dating before recovery was, I don't like to use the word stereotypical, but I feel like it was very stereotypical for me. A little backstory first. I'm an adult child of an alcoholic. My qualifier is my father and like many stories I've heard about, I was the type that was affected a lot by a parent drinking in the home.

[00:04:48] I often felt like I was the cause of it or if I did better that they would stop drinking. And over time through, many years of that, I developed this really deeply rooted belief that I wasn't good enough. 'cause if I was good enough, then they would stop drinking, right?

[00:05:07] That did play into a lot of my romantic relationships, my dating relationships before I came into the program. I remember reading for the first time in one of, I don't remember which book it was, but they were talking about the four Ms: martyrdom, mothering, manipulating, and managing.

[00:05:23] And I deeply identified with specifically two of those, but really all four, especially the mothering part for me. I found after coming to Al-Anon, that I often was choosing partners that I had to take care of. ‘Cause if they needed me, if I took care of 'em, then that would make me feel wanted and needed. And I'm learning now that those are not necessarily the same things to be wanted and needed.

[00:05:44] Likewise manipulating. I didn't realize I was manipulating people in the moment, while I was doing it. But, I have these holes I guess in my life that I wanted filled. Nobody wants to feel like they're not good enough. I think I would manipulate people to kind of fill those holes. If I said I want more attention from this person because that'll make me feel wanted or needed, I would potentially guilt them into spending more time with me or,use my body in ways to try to say, oh,if they're spending time with me, it doesn't matter why they're spending time with me.

[00:06:15] It doesn't matter if it's just for my body or for whatever I can give them. That was all I really wanted. I didn't realize that was necessarily a form of manipulation until probably months and months into my recovery, when I discovered that.

[00:06:27] The other two, martyrdom, you know, thinking about this, I didn't necessarily act a martyr to others, but in my own mind, I was a martyr to myself, because, if I was the victim, then that gave me an excuse to hold onto resentments, to hold onto things that I didn't like about my partner, and I could hold that over them.

[00:06:47] They didn't necessarily even know it though. I think that was one of the insanity things. You know, they talk about that in step two you know, to bring us back to sanity. And I think that was one of the things that made me realize I was insane before I came to Al-Anon, and I'm still working on that sanity from time to time, of course.

[00:07:02] And then managing, as, just controlling other people. Like I said, all four of those kind of, hit me, but that was a big one.Sure. When you were talking about manipulating, I'm thinking about a thing that I did, as a college student. I would fall asleep in somebody else's bed, in the hope that then they wouldn't kick me out. I'm like, oh, that was so manipulative. I think back to that, I'm like, wow. yeah. the things we do sometimes.And that's the thing that sometimes in the moment you don't realize, like what you said, they think manipulate has such a strong connotation to it, but it sounds like it's so intentional. And that's not always the case, that you don't realize that's what you're doing from time to time even, or if you don't think it's as big of a deal as it is until you look back at it. And hindsight is 2020, right? But now knowing that I can definitely be more intentional and be more aware of my past patterns. To avoid continuing that cycle and those not so healthy behaviors.

[00:07:57] Spencer: What did some of your past dating relationships look like?

[00:08:02] Brenda W: They all looked very similar. like I've already touched on, I often chose partners that weren't the most self-sufficient, because that allowed me to take care of 'em. Through and through. I've always been a people pleaser.So there was a lot of that, that came through in those relationships.

[00:08:20] Usually, you know, step one is someone expressed interest in me, and even if I wasn't necessarily attracted to them back or interested in them back, I would humor it just because, oh, somebody wants me, so I'm going to give them a chance and see what happens.

[00:08:34] But at the same time, I never wanted to step on toes or make anyone feel bad. And so I would stick around in relationships and different situations that weren't good for me necessarily. I won't say that any of them treated me poorly because I've been fortunate enough that, for the most part, all of my past partners were good people, but they weren't good for me specifically. Our values and our ambitions didn't align, things like that. So I would just stay quiet. I wouldn't say anything about my needs or my concerns 'cause I didn't wanna be that burden. I didn't wanna be the one that would hurt them, even though in the process and then I was hurting myself. So that was definitely one, one big way, that one pattern that showed up over and over again in a lot of my past relationships, both romantic relationships, friendships, family members also,none of them were safe from that.

[00:09:16] Spencer: Yeah, I see a little bit of the martyr in that too.

[00:09:20] Brenda W: Yes. that is something I hadn't thought about, so thank you. Thank you for pointing that one out there, Spencer.

[00:09:25] Spencer: Yeah. it's the, they're more important than me, so I will, swallow the unpleasantness, the pain, or the just not happiness I guess.which is a martyr response, really.

[00:09:37] Brenda W: yes, you are correct. That is, yeah, spin on it that I hadn't necessarily thought about, but yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think another pattern that popped up multiple times was, I call it personality mirroring. I don't know, there's probably an actual term for this, but essentially, it was the same idea where I wanted them to be happy and them to like me, so therefore their hobbies became my hobbies.

[00:09:57] I never really took the time to think about what I personally enjoyed, and that was a big eye-opener. not just in recovery, but, I've also been on my own personal journey with other, self-help professionals and, therapists, things like that. Realizing that I had never taken the time to stop and think what I really enjoyed.

[00:10:16] Growing up, my qualifier, like I said, was my father and he, fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, wasn't in my life a whole lot. he didn't live in the home with us, so the time I did get to spend with him, I, really tried to make it stick to make him want to be around more. And so I took on a lot of his interest and his hobbies. And it wasn't until later in life that I realized, I don't know that I ever, I'm sure I liked those things in the moment, but it was more like one of those sentimental things. oh, this is what happened during the good times. So that's what I'm gonna carry with me through my adult life. Our shared love of,aquatic life and fishing and certain foods even. And that would become, a part of my personality.

[00:10:55] So that did, like I said, popped up again in relationships. I remember, this is a pretty recent discovery for me, but I have always said that I'm a huge country music fan. And while that's not untrue, I do like country music. I realized fairly recently that my first real boyfriend loved country music. Before that I just listened to whatever was on the radio. I didn't really think twice about what kind of music I was listening to for the most part. But he loved country music. So then I loved country music, and that carried through until, that was early high school until I'm now in my thirties.

[00:11:27] And so it was a very long time. I was like, I don't know that's actually my favorite kind of music. And I actually took the time to think about it and realized it's not, I still like it, don't get me wrong, but if I were to choose something for myself as my favorite, that wasn't it. And I didn't, like I said, again, didn't realize it until I started doing some self-reflection on all these patterns that were showing up again and again.

[00:11:47] It was another thing, probably kind of, you know, giving up a piece of myself to make the other person happy or want to be around.

[00:11:53] Spencer: Sure. There's another podcaster that I listen to who has talked about how she became an avid fan of a particular football team because the person she was dating was a fan of that team, and she has since realized she doesn't care. She's, she doesn't even care about football. but at the time it seemed like, yes, that was something that was very important in her life.

[00:12:18] I can relate to that, not I think at the dating level, but just if I am with friends who are,fans of a particular sport or a particular team, then I will join in the conversation and pretend to be a fan. To some extent anyway, and then they start getting into the details and I'm like totally lost, players and how they did three years ago. And I'm like, I don't know one thing, but I can fake it. and how much of that is this personality mirroring thing? And that's not even like a date relationship, that's just a friend relationship. And how much of that is just okay, these are people that I wanna spend time with and this is something that they're very interested in, excited about.

[00:13:01] And I can Join in with them in their enthusiasm, even if it's not necessarily mine. And I'm just being social. I don't know .

[00:13:11] Brenda W: For me, that brings up the idea that. we talk about when we're talking about, step four and your, finding your defects, right? And that's one of the things I've heard and read in a lot of our literature is that, sometimes defects are actually assets that you've just overdone.

[00:13:26] There's a definitely a healthy way to show interest in your partners and your friends' interests. It's just making it your whole personality without considering do you actually care about these things, there's a line there.

[00:13:38] Spencer: Right. So I can join a conversation about, oh, let's say the Detroit Lions football team, but I don't actually own any of their, no t-shirts, no hats, no anything,that would be for me, stepping over the line if I bought a shirt about a team that I don't really care about,except in as much as my friends care about it. For me, there's a line there. I don't have any sports team, what do you call it? Regalia or whatever.

[00:14:06] Brenda W: Yeah. There you go. That's your boundary, right? Talking about setting boundaries, that's, another conversation that will come up later.

[00:14:11] I think the biggest, once again, I hate the word stereotype, but the biggest stereotype again is that I did not realize it at the time, but had also been in, in quite a few relationships with, partners who had substance abuse issues. And it may not have been to necessarily a full blown, alcoholic or addict level. But there were definitely problematic behaviors there. Like I said, at the time, I hadn't recognized and a lot of that, I will chalk up to the fact that most of it was, in my late teens, early twenties when that's just the normal thing that, that people that age do is they go out, they spend a lot of time at bars and, the college experience with unnamed things that we won't need to talk about in detail.

[00:14:52] But, then it was at what point did it become problematic

[00:14:56] Spencer: Can I ask, what your father's pattern was and did you see that pattern in some of the people that you were dating? And if you did, there's multiple layers of if here, and my question if you did, was that a turn on, a turn off, or neutral?

[00:15:17] Brenda W: So we'll start with his pattern. He is an alcoholic and has been, my entire life. I think the drinking started shortly before I was born, but it reallypeaked to like an alcoholic level when I was a toddler. From my understanding, of course, I don't remember a lot of things from back that far back, but that was when it started to become really problematic and when other people started to notice as well that it wasn't a, oh, he's just young, he had a problem. And that continued to escalate until he entered rehab and got sober a little over a year ago now. Which is, a blessing and also brings about his own challenges.

[00:15:56] Spencer: So he was actively drinking for most of your conscious life.

[00:16:01] Brenda W: Correct, yes. Like I said, he wasn't around in our lives a whole lot. However, when we were together, I would still see it. I couldn't always differentiate between when he was, drinking and when he was not at that moment when he, he was sober at the moment or not, because his personality was pretty consistent the whole time.

[00:16:20] A lot of it was, oh, we will go out to the campgrounds with his friends and that's where they, they drink there or, Take it to a bar and grill where kids are allowed, but we're going there for drinks, right? So those were the behaviors where it was a very much a social behavior that I saw.

[00:16:33] Spencer: And so that just kinda became a normal thing in my mind to repeatedly do that and then do that in necessarily situations where you wouldn't necessarily bring children. so then, speaking to the patterns I saw in partners, a lot of 'em did have that same thing. Like I said, a lot of it was social drinking or social use of other substances.

[00:16:52] Brenda W: Like any teen Young 20, I went through phases,where I did participate in some, drinking, but. I didn't ever really necessarily wanna make that my whole thing. I didn't wanna do it every weekend. I just thought they were more social than I was. And that's just part of the game. And that's not necessarily the case.

[00:17:08] Spencer: I just was wondering like, was it an attraction? Was it a put off or it sounds like not really. You weren't really triggering on behavior that looked like your father's.

[00:17:20] Brenda W: I wasn't very conscious of it. I can pick out a couple scenarios where I did get a flash of, oh, this reminds me of my dad, and was immediately disgusted, I'm being honest. . So yes, there was, there were a couple of times, especially when there were certain combinations of things, like he was also a smoker and I, at one point was on a date with someone who was, it was the combination of the beer and the smoke and I could smell on his breath, and I was like, immediately oh, that's my dad. I don't want any part of that. so when I noticed it, yes, it was an immediate turnoff.

[00:17:50] Spencer: Okay. So at some point you found Al-Anon.

[00:17:54] Brenda W: I did, and

[00:17:56] Spencer: What happened?

[00:17:57] Brenda W: I had actually heard about Al-Anon early in college. I studied psychology in college and at one point. I don't remember what the class was, but we were tasked to write a paper and we could choose a topic of our own interests. And for some reason, I remember choosing adult children of alcoholism as a topic. And this was before I'd even told anyone, most people did not know about the history in my family and with my dad. And I wasn't even really talking about it with anyone else, like anyone, counselor, anybody.

[00:18:32] Spencer: as one does.

[00:18:33] Brenda W: Yeah. See, exactly. We don't, we don't talk about it. that's part of it.

[00:18:36] and so for some reason though, I decided I wanted to find out more about this. I wanted to know why. I was mostly trying to figure out, why am I the way I am? So I wrote this paper on Adult Children of Alcoholism, and I remember reading about Al-Anon and I put it in the paper, and I wish I could find that paper today and go back and read it.

[00:18:50] But I, unfortunately, I haven't been able to locate anywhere that has it. So I'd heard about Al-Anon a long time ago. And then fast forward to. Gosh, almost three years ago, two and a half, three years ago now, I started seeing a new therapist. I had just gotten out of a very long relationship, started seeing a new therapist we were working on myself, and, my patterns, my habits, my, my defects as we call them in Al-Anon too. And she suggested after we started to dig into the effect that alcoholism had on my life with my dad, she suggested Al-Anon a few times.

[00:19:27] Spencer: A few times. Yeah.

[00:19:27] Brenda W: Yeah, like it in passing. She's oh yeah, this Al-Anon program, you might like it. and it was just one of those, a lot of people call your higher power moment that it was just a random person that I happened to find. But she had previously been a substance abuse counselor.she's no longer is, she has private practice now, but there was that, and she had been an Al-Anon herself at one point. So I trusted her, but I wasn't quite ready yet. And then I had gotten into another, yet another relationship that was very intense, very quickly, and also burned out very intensely, very quickly. And I realized, that was when she and I had started looking into my patterns of dating, and I realized, oh, this was another one that hit all of the patterns that I'd talked about before. And I was like, I do not wanna keep doing this. And so I was like, I'm gonna, okay. I'm gonna try Al-Anon. We're gonna see. Like, I kinda hit a plateau with that.

[00:20:20] And I knew, I felt like I needed more than just one-on-one attention. I felt like I wanted to be around people that understood what I was going through, and understood what it's like to be connected to an alcoholic and love an alcoholic. So I went to Al-Anon for my first meeting. It was a, yeah, Thanksgiving week, almost two years ago now. That was a big meeting to walk into also the week of Thanksgiving. But. I haven't looked back since then.

[00:20:46] Spencer: It's always, it's fascinating for me to hear from people what they expected from Al-Anon. And then how did that correspond with what they found. You said, oh, I wanted someplace where they would understand. I did not have that expectation. I don't know what expectation I had because I was coming to Al-Anon as what felt like a last resort. Like, I've tried all these things, nothing has worked. I'm unhappy. Maybe this Al-Anon thing will help.

[00:21:26] And what I found was in my first meeting, people who understood, people who had been where I was. Somehow I knew that after just one meeting of, I don't even remember what anybody said in the meeting, you know?

[00:21:42] But somehow I knew that I wasn't alone anymore. and it sounds like you actually felt like you might find that when you came to Al-Anon, and that was a positive attraction as opposed like, for me it was like, I don't know what else I can do now.

[00:21:54] Brenda W: It was a positive attraction, but also for me, similarly, it was a last resort because I had tried to do it on my own for so long. And like I said, knowing what Al-Anon was through the research I'd done in college, knowing what it was through what my therapist had taught me because she was also had been, in the fellowship for a while.

[00:22:11] I knew that was also coming, but I did not want to go that route. I did not want to have to deal with this with other people. I wanted to be, I was like, no, I can fix this myself. I'm independent. I can fix it myself. Having a therapist is enough. I don't need to talk about this to other people. But then, hey, I just hit a point where I felt like, okay, I've tried everything else. Maybe I should try talking to other people about it. And in this case, people who understand it.

[00:22:35] Spencer: I think about when our kids were, I don't know, two, three years old and one of the. Common phrases was something like, want do self,I think we, we come back to that space of our life over and over again. It's like, no, I wanna do it myself.

[00:22:52] Brenda W: And that's a hard habit to break too. That one's, that one, I think is gonna take, I mean better than I was, but it's gonna continue to take some time for me to break out of that habit of do it yourself and accept help.

[00:23:03] Spencer: Accept help. That is a separate barrier for many of us. For me it was. Like, wait, it's okay for me to ask for help and people will actually give it? What?

[00:23:15] Brenda W: And it doesn't always mean that you owe them something in return.

[00:23:17] Spencer: it does. Oh my

[00:23:18] Brenda W: It's a whole new concept for me.

[00:23:20] Spencer: It is a whole new concept. Yes. So you've been in program a couple of years.

[00:23:26] Brenda W: I still consider myself a newcomer. I know I'm not technically a newcomer anymore, but I do still often feel like a newcomer because it's only been a couple years and when you consider how long I've been forming these habits, it's a very short time to. So in no way, shape or form do I feel like I am perfect or an expert on this topic, but I sharing my experience here, right? And some hope hopefully.

[00:23:49] Spencer: I've been in program 23 ish years, and if I ever start feeling like I'm an expert and then I know it's time for me to I don't know, recommit or something. We're at episode number 441 in the podcast. I'm not an expert.I just, I guess I have a skill, a gift of being able to communicate. And to help other people communicate. But that's it,I am not setting myself up here, I hope, as a fount of all wisdom. God help me if I, ever do.

[00:24:26]

[00:24:26] Brenda W: I hope, I don't expect that of you either. I don't think any of us are experts. I think many come into Al-Anon, including myself, thinking Okay.you get through the 12 steps and then that's it. You graduate and you're done. And coming to learn and accept that that is not the case. You know, Al-Anon is a lifelong process of learning and relearning, and that is one of the things that I actually love most about this program is that it's on you're own timeline. There is no right or wrong timeline for it.

[00:24:57] Spencer: Absolutely. So one of my meetings, we're reading through this book How Al-Anon Works for Family and Friends of Alcoholics, right? The blue book, as some people call it. And we got to this chapter titled Keep Coming Back.and it talks in that chapter about why we keep coming, why many of us keep coming for maybe the rest of our lives. I mean, I can't say I'll be coming for the rest of my life 'cause it's not over yet. And then once it's over, I won't be able to say, I, I don't expect to stop coming, I guess is the way to put that.

[00:25:33] I was at a meeting the other night and, this was a lead meeting, so the person who was leading, read from Courage to Change, one of the daily reader books that I've had for 20 something years. And I know I've read it through more than once and I was like, I never saw this sentence before. So obviously I've got more to learn. No question about it.

[00:25:56] Brenda W: There's always more to learn and that brings up something that I also have realized too. That's why I love Al-Anon. I love meetings specifically with Al-Anon is 'cause I can read the readings on my own and that's great. And find, actually there's a, it is an amazing tool for when you can't make it to a meeting or you don't necessarily want to be around people.

[00:26:14] Sometimes hearing someone else read the same line to you, hits you in a different way.oh, I, it happens to me very frequently. I'll do the readings before our meeting and then someone else will read it. And I was like, I didn't even see that and I just read it an hour ago. So that's, yeah, it's a beautiful thing.

[00:26:29] Spencer: it is. Do you wanna talk about how you have seen changes in your dating, dating life?

[00:26:38] Brenda W: Yeah. There are a lot of changes that I've seen. First of all, Al-Anon has really forced me to be more self-aware and more self-reflective. And that's sometimes a blessing and a curse because sometimes you don't want to see these things. I've been able to see a lot of growth in myself personally and in how I handle my relationships. Like I said, both romantic relationships and friendships, family members, everything in between. And so I think to start out with that, one of the biggest changes in my dating life is that I started to choose quote unquote good dates.

[00:27:16] I'd mentioned earlier that, in the past it didn't matter necessarily who it was. If they were interested in me, I was gonna give it a shot. The flip side of that is, after coming to Al-Anon and realizing that I don't have to continue the same patterns, I started looking for people that had actual compatibility with me and with my values and with my goals.

[00:27:41] And also really did try to focus on people who are emotionally available. That wasn't necessarily something I had realized was not there with partners in the past because I was also emotionally unavailable at those times. Like I said, I was very much the do it on your own person. I didn't talk about things.

[00:28:00] Now I'm much more likely to open up to close friends and family and in Al-Anon I really prioritize having a partner that is emotionally, that I can talk about things with that are uncomfortable. The big kickstart to better dating after coming into Al-Anon was picking people that would work for me and not necessarily against me.

[00:28:21] Spencer: How much do you feel that working the steps in particular, but also, all the other parts of being a member of Al-Anon meetings and readings and so on, how much do you think that has enabled you to really understand what you like, what you want, what you value?

[00:28:42] Brenda W: I think just the program as a whole. self-admittedly, I am one of those people that I am taking my sweet time with the steps. I'm diving headlong into them, so I'm not as far along as I think some people might expect when they first hear about it. One of the things I love about the program is that it's on your own timeline. So I haven't specifically done a lot of step four and five work. I did do what I would say is a very comparable thing with, like I said, with a therapist. So I have explored it just not necessarily in the context of

[00:29:09] Al-Anon. But I think that did make a big difference for me because Al-Anon, we talk about how it's not about the alcoholic, it's about you. This is your program. All you can do is change your attitudes, your behaviors, you can't control anyone else. Because of that, for the first time, it forced me to look at myself and to actually step back and think about what my wants and my needs are and discuss them with other people.

[00:29:39] And I think this kind of leads into what we briefly mentioned earlier, sponsorship. I took a little while to find a sponsor because I am slow to trust. Surprise, surprise. I think that's a, a stereotype also, right? Yes. No surprise there. I'm slow to trust people, slow to open up. So it took me a while to pick a person I wanted to be a sponsor. And then it took me even longer after that to ask her to be my sponsor, because I was nervous that she may not want to, which was not the case. I dunno why I was so nervous. She was really excited. Her exact response was, I was hoping you would ask. And so apparently I'd been giving off some sort of signals for a while, or she knew also that we were gonna be a good sponsor, sponsee match. And that was a huge relief. I don't know why I was so nervous.

[00:30:22] It felt like asking someone to marry me. I feel like that's why I always joke about it with her. I was like, I feel like I'd be like, I could much more easily ask a person on a date than ask you to be my sponsor. which is just funny in the context of this conversation.

[00:30:34] Spencer: Yeah.

[00:30:34] Brenda W: So like that relationship with her, I think while we're still growing that relationship, 'cause overall it's still a pretty new one, I think it mirrors the similar growth that you have with someone when you're dating them. She started out as this complete stranger to me. But through our conversations and her consistency, I am learning to, to figure out who I am and what I want. I'm learning trust because she's consistent and because she keeps my secrets. And, we have that we're building that, that relationship together. There's just so many different tools that you learn an Al-Anon, in general, but specifically also that a sponsor reaffirms. That help with dating.

[00:31:15] Spencer: I would hope that in fact, a sponsor would be somebody who could help guide you along that as could a therapist. And you said you've done some of that already.

[00:31:25] Yes. You know, everyone's journey is different. What's best for everyone is different, but I have found that the combination of Al-Anon and a sponsor and a therapist and, multiple media, that's what really works for me personally, is just coming at it from every angle. The other thing that you at least started to talk about was the parallel between developing a relationship with your sponsor and developing a relationship with somebody you're dating.

[00:31:54] Brenda W: yes.

[00:31:55] Spencer: And I would also ask. How are they different? Part of it, I think is where you want to go with that relationship. What kind of relationship it is.

[00:32:06] Brenda W: Obviously the big difference is the goal of the relationship. I have no intentions to marry my sponsor or be in a romantic relationship with her. I love her, but it's in a very different way. I guess there are differences in kind of the topics we discuss on a regular basis.while a lot of the stuff I talk about with my sponsor, I would also potentially talk about with a healthy partner. We don't get into as many specifics like, my, my sponsor's not going to know most of these people in my life that I'm discussing with her. So it's just different kinds of conversations. Both can be deep and meaningful. I feel like most of the conversations with my sponsor are deep and meaningful, whereas with a partner that's only part of it. There's also a lot more playful laughter, joking around. I'm not saying that's devoid in my sponsor relationship. We do also have fun together, but it's just a different dynamic.

[00:32:56] Spencer: The reading that you brought

[00:32:58] Brenda W: Yeah.

[00:32:59] Spencer: talked about developing a sense of trust.

[00:33:04] Brenda W: Yeah.

[00:33:05] Spencer: Have you found a way or ways in which your relationship with a sponsor. Deepening your relationship with a sponsor also helps you to deepen relationships with romantic partners.

[00:33:16] Brenda W: Absolutely. Yes. That is one parallel I do like to draw. I'll start with, in the past with any sort of friendship or relationship, I dove headfirst into it. Didn't do a whole lot of thinking or comparing values. I just went straight from, we are strangers to, we are best friends, very quickly. And that relationship has been very different with my sponsor partially because she set those boundaries initially, which was great, which is, slowing things down. It doesn't have to be that way.

[00:33:48] And that was a very different experience for me. We took our time building up that trust, it wasn't daily phone calls right away. and even still at this point isn't, anything near that level, which in the past is probably what I would've gone to, was like, oh no, let's be enmeshed right away.

[00:34:04] So building up slowly to working our way up, it started with more base level conversations like, day to day, how was your day? How was work and then slowly building up to, okay, now tell me about your current experiences. Tell me about your past experiences with your qualifier. Okay. Now I was talking to how is that affecting you now? what are you seeing in yourself? And gradually over time, working our way into those deeper, more personal conversations.

[00:34:33] That has also shown up in my dating life as well, because instead of having what I call, trying to think of the word I'm looking for, but trauma bombing essentially, a person like instead of, this is the first date, let's talk about how my dad's an alcoholic. That is not something you necessarily bring up with someone you're just meeting and not something you should necessarily. everyone has their own way. But that was unhealthy behavior for me.

[00:34:59] Developing that relationship with my sponsor where it wasn't, okay, let's get right into these very deep personal things. I don't think I even was consciously doing it, but as I was getting back into dating, I was doing the same thing. I was mirroring that experience where let's have these base little conversations, figure out what's your favorite color, you know, a very surface level.

[00:35:20] And then over time as this person is showing consistency, being there for me, and actually doing what they say they're going to do. Okay, now let's try to open up emotionally a little bit more and give a little bit more information. and maybe still not talking about the details, but it's, oh yeah, my parents are divorced. Start there. And then slowly working our way into more personal conversations and things that we wouldn't share with the general public.

[00:35:48] Spencer: Yeah. Actually that difference that you talked about, in that you don't start with the heavy stuff.

[00:35:54] Brenda W: Right?

[00:35:55] Spencer: is that something that you would've done or did do in the past?

[00:35:58] Brenda W: I absolutely did. Many of my relationships, dating and friendships, like I said, we went from strangers to sharing our deepest, darkest secrets within days, weeks, months, a thing. I did, the partners I had in my twenties, we were living together within months. So that is, yes, not the healthiest.

[00:36:19] For some people it works, but for me, it was not healthy. It wasn't built on a foundation of love and trust and compatibility. It was a response to trying to get needs met in an unhealthy way.

[00:36:31] Spencer: Word that occurred to me while I was listening to you is boundaries. How do you see the way in which you establish, recognize, enforce boundaries. How do you see that changing?

[00:36:47] Brenda W: That's another process that I feel really changes shape over time, especially when you're learning recovery. I will say initially before coming into the program, boundaries for me were very black and white. For example, right before I came to the program, I completely cut contact with my qualifier. I said either we had a relationship or we didn't, there was no in between. And since then, learning boundaries, and how I work them now, again, self-reflection.

[00:37:14] Usually the way I figure out where I need a boundary is do I feel uncomfortable in a situation? And then it's thinking about what about the situation is making me uncomfortable? What boundary can I set with either myself or trying to ask another person to do something, that would make this a more comfortable experience for me or a healthier experience for me. and it just depends on the situation and the person and those boundaries can ebb and flow over time. They can flex here and there as needed.

[00:37:42] But that was something that was important , the way my sponsor showed me boundaries, which, my family has not ever been great at boundaries likemany alcoholic families. It really is that family disease, right? And we don't do boundaries.

[00:37:54] So seeing boundaries from someone else, especially someone that I have a sponsorship relationship with. For example, not always being available. And understanding, like, yes, I can text or call her at any point in time, but she does make it clear, she may not always be able to answer because people have lives outside of just you.

[00:38:14] It sounds so simple, but that was a big eye-opener for me. It was like, oh, I don't have to be available 24 7. If it's an emergency, that's one thing, but just to say hello, that's not necessary. And that's just a very small example of setting boundaries. But things that I'm learning to do now where I don't have to say yes to everything.

[00:38:34] Spencer: It sounds like particularly with your sponsor and maybe this laps over into other relationships, accepting her boundaries, and learning that if she doesn't answer your phone call or she doesn't respond to your text right away, she's not ghosting you.

[00:38:48] Brenda W: Yes. Whereas before, that may have been an upsetting experience because I would assume that, oh, she doesn't wanna talk to me, or she doesn't like me, or I said something wrong. That is no longer my immediate response. Which is a huge weight off of me that I'm not constantly worried about someone else not liking me, just because, like you said, they didn't respond to a text immediately. That's not necessarily a sign.

[00:39:10] Spencer: and for her to model that in a healthy way, I would think that it helps to not go down those old pathways when other people do it.

[00:39:21] Brenda W: Correct. It reinforces that trust that I've built with her, but also shows me that it's possible to do that. And then, we practice within these close sponsorship relationships or close, Al-Anon friend relationships. And then we can say, okay, I'm gonna take what I've learned in this relationship and let's try to apply it outside to someone I'm dating or to a family member who likes to push boundaries. And you just keep practicing it until you figure out what works best for you and what is, something you can live with and that you want to live with.

[00:39:50] Spencer: What do you feel you're still working on. Or that you still wanna work on?

[00:39:54] Brenda W: There are some things that I still find tricky to navigate. one of those being the vulnerable conversations and initiating those uncomfortable conversations is something that I find difficult still.

[00:40:06] Spencer: How do you decide that one of those conversations needs to happen?

[00:40:12] Brenda W: It's usually, kinda similar to how I determine that a boundary may or or may not need to be set. It's kind of part of my process. If I feel uncomfortable about something or something doesn't feel right to me or is making me upset, giving me uncomfortable emotions. My process is I stop and I say the serenity prayer first. Figure out if it's something I can change or not. Do I have control over whatever is making me uncomfortable. And then is it a matter of do I need to set a boundary? And sometimes setting a boundary can also be a uncomfortable conversation.

[00:40:42] Spencer: Right?

[00:40:43] Brenda W: that kind of falls into that habit. It's just the process of, okay, I'm uncomfortable. What is doing it? Can I do anything about it? If it's something I can have a conversation with someone about, that's the time when I know that it's time to have a talk.

[00:40:55] Spencer: What about, how do I ask this question? I'm just gonna ask it straight, I guess. What about drinking?

[00:41:01] Brenda W: Drinking is another one. Yes. That is also a tricky situation to navigate. I have found that a lot of people now don't drink.

[00:41:12] Spencer: I've heard that.

[00:41:13] Brenda W: It's becoming more common to not drink, which is fascinating to me and I appreciate it and it means that a lot more places are offering non-alcoholic options when you go to bars and things of that nature.

[00:41:26] So for myself personally, I love that I can order something that's not alcoholic and still be around other people, but I do find it tricky to navigate my personal boundaries and where the line is for me between this really is social drinking. This is my partner having a couple drinks just 'cause. Or, crossing into a problematic line. And that is, I don't even necessarily know how to describe it. That is something I've just been thinking through a lot recently and figuring out where my boundaries lie. And that's a hard one to do.

[00:41:54] Spencer: When do you start to have old feelings come up around that, for example?

[00:42:01] Brenda W: It starts to make me uncomfortable when it seems to be frequent. Also just the conversation around it too. if it's a special occasion event, I don't necessarily think as much of it, but if it's, I had a hard day and I need this, that's.

[00:42:16] Spencer: Sort of triggering, huh?

[00:42:17] Brenda W: yes, that's where the line is for me.

[00:42:18] There's a difference between, like, this is just a random event, or it's like, yes, I am using alcohol to cope with an uncomfortable feeling or problem in my life, and that's when it starts, the line gets a little bit more tricky for me.

[00:42:32] Spencer: I got that. Okay.

[00:42:34] I'll ask my usual sort of closing question, which is, what might you say to somebody else in a meeting who comes up and says, you know, I'm having trouble in my dating life. And you seem to be doing a lot better at it. What can I do? It's a wide open question. You can ignore it if you want.

[00:42:53] Brenda W: Yeah. I think there's a couple things. One, I would like to bring up, so I wish I knew where I heard this, but at one point I had seen a, a video on social media and that the person had said, you can't say the wrong thing to the right person. That statement, I don't know why, I don't know how it hit me, why it hit me so hard in that moment, or why it stuck with me so much. But to me, that quote was kinda an eyeopener for me. A because I was learning how to communicate. I am an overthinker and I want to make sure I'm saying something perfectly, and all I'm learning that communicating is just something you need to learn how to do. And so you shouldn't be worried about saying the wrong thing because if it's the right person for you, as long as you're thinking about it ahead of time, obviously don't say something hurtful. You know, stop and think for a moment. Use our slogans. But if you're saying something meaningful to you and that person takes it the wrong way or uses it a deal breaker or doesn't wanna have a further conversation about it, there's a good chance they weren't the right person for you.

[00:43:54] That was an eyeopening statement for me. Whoever you are wanting to have a dating relationship with, if it's the right person, then they will understand it, or they will ask for more clarification. It's a conversation you have together.

[00:44:05] Spencer: Brenda, thank you for, being open about your experience and where you are and where you see yourself, how you see yourself changing in your relationships, really, it's not just dating, is it?

[00:44:17] We received shares from listeners about their experience of dating and recovery.

[00:44:23] Marcy wrote, my sponsor, suggested that I wait a year in the program before dating. I was 10 months in when I had a fling and realized that while that was good for me, after just being divorced a few years after a 20 year marriage, it was too soon.

[00:44:39] Luckily, it did not derail my program. It taught me a lot. The experience showed me that this person was not my people, and I never would be honest to myself about that before being in recovery. I would meet someone, fall in love, and be with them for a decade or two, marry them, and then take care of them, as if I had an addict's welcome t-shirt on.

[00:45:01] By the end of my third marriage, it felt like a crazy game of baseball or hit the ball, pick up my qualifier and carry him to first base, then back to the plate, hit the ball, run to first pick up my qualifier and run to second base and so on. Now that I am a year and a half, I. I know better who I am, who might be someone I would date. Literally, date. No leaping off cliffs into long-term relationship immediately. Get to know one another, spend time, build true intimacy and trust. Wait to get sexual. I'm enjoying my solitary single life. My life and recovery are a full-time job. I am finding so much more time for self-care and pursuing my dreams instead of caring for my addicted partner and making his dreams and everyone else's come true first.

[00:45:46] It is a wonder how I accomplished anything for the last 35 plus years, but better late than never. I know my higher power and I will know when the person arrives who I'm supposed to be in relationship with. I cannot imagine that person, now. I fear my picker is broken, but I trust the will of my higher power.

[00:46:03] I'm headed to step eight, so I have plenty of learning opportunities.

[00:46:08] An anonymous listener left a voicemail.

[00:46:11] Anonymous: Hi Spencer, on the topic of dating. Having spent over a year separated from my qualifier, who was my wife for 10 years, agreements in place, divorce papers filed, I'm now starting to feel I'm on the cusp of being ready to date again. The last two and a half years in recovery have taught me a lot about healthy relationships, boundaries, and what I am, and I'm not responsible for. Also doing the shadow work in myself was beyond necessary and allowed me to fully grow in the program.

[00:46:40] I met a woman this past weekend. Good conversation, possibly good chemistry, but something held me back. My inner child, which represents my vulnerability in matters of the heart, gave me pause to really think about it. It was protecting me. Living alone in recovery gave me a million ways to feel and revel in my serenity.

[00:46:59] It's allowing me to be me, not some version of me I'm expected to be, and that's something to be cherished and protected. Whomever shows up in my life. I know now they need to allow me to be me and accept me flaws and all just as I am, and that, after 55 years in this planet is the first time I put myself first. I consider that a win and a blessing of the program. Thank you for all you do.

[00:47:26] Spencer: And we got a voicemail from Patrick.

[00:47:29] Patrick: Hey, this is Patrick from Atlanta. Nobody really likes to be rejected, and I have a mantra that I tell myself. When I get ghosted by a woman, I remind myself of something I learned years ago that it's not really her rejection, it's God's protection. Talk to you later.

[00:47:47] Spencer: Thank you, Marcy, Patrick, and anonymous for sharing your dating experience with us.

[00:47:54] After a break, we will continue with our lives in recovery, where we'll talk a little bit about how recovery is working in our daily lives.

Song 1

[00:48:01] Spencer: I asked you to bring music. what was the first selection that you chose?

[00:48:06] Brenda W: The first song I chose is by Chase McDaniel. It's called Your Daughter. I first heard the song shortly after coming to Al-Anon, and it sparked an immediate wave of emotions in me. For me, it really highlights the insanity that can come from living alongside someone with the disease of alcoholism, when you believe that you are the cause of that illness. Thankfully, I know that it's not my fault anymore. I didn't cause it, can't control it, can't cure it. When I hear this song now I can feel how far I've come from it. It was a very meaningful song to me. Hopefully, we'll speak to some listeners also.

[00:48:45]

Our Lives in Recovery

[00:48:53] Spencer: In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery. How have we experienced recovery recently? How are we using our recovery principles in our lives as step 12 asks us to do or suggests that we can do?

[00:49:08] The big thing for me in my recovery life is that, recently another person in one of my meetings said, Hey, I'm starting a step study group, what we call an AWOL group, which stands for a way of life or a way of living, not absent, without leave. I've been absent without leave a lot of my life, I want to be present now. Anyway, she said, we're starting up this group, and I was like, it's been a decade, since I've worked the steps, maybe it's time to do that again. So I've started meeting with that group, and we're going through the book Paths to Recovery. I am writing out answers to the questions under each step. And then when we get together, we share what we wrote. It will go as fast or as slow as it goes. We've met three times and we've gotten through the first four questions under step one. There's about eight people right now and when you had eight people each sharing something and on that question, that fourth question, people had a lot to share. So that's good. So I'm, I'm recommitting to the process of working the steps and I have connected with, my new sponsor, and we're starting to get to know each other. So those are a couple of recovery program things that, that are happening for me.

[00:50:28] If I just think about life, my wife and I made a large, at least financial, decision recently. We decided to sign up for another cruise. This be a river cruising Europe in 2027. And it feels really odd to me to be making a commitment to do something in two years. But it also feels right. We did look at some different cost related options and found one that we're comfortable with because these things are not cheap.

[00:51:04] As I've talked about before, we did this Alaska Inner Passage cruise this summer after the AA convention on a large ship, an ocean going ship with a couple thousand people. My wife decided that that's too many people for her. So, one of the reasons we decided to try a river cruise besides we get to visit some places we'd never been, with built in accommodations, which is always nice. You don't have to pack and unpack in hotel rooms. Is because it's a much smaller ship. It's like 180, 190 people instead of over 2000 people. We are hopeful that this will be more of a sweet spot for us in terms of experience versus feeling crowded. And a little bit overwhelmed by all the people. So we'll see how that goes.and yeah, it's two years off, so it's this is crazy. I know what I'm doing in late November, two years from now.

[00:52:00] I don't know that I've ever made such a detailed commitment that far ahead of my life. So that's new. But, I also feel like having learned and continuing to learn, through practicing these principles, what I want, what I need, and what I don't want, is really important in being able to make that kind of decision. It's not just like, yeah, let's try this thing. It's like, no, we thought about it and this is something we wanna do. So with that, I'll pass.

[00:52:31] Brenda W: Yeah, that's very exciting. Sometimes you have to have something to look forward to, you know, that sounds like a really good one.

[00:52:37] So my recent recovery, my life has been very hectic lately, mostly with all good things though. One of my best friends is getting married in a week, and so there's been a lot of special events out of town to get ready for her wedding and supporting her through that.

[00:52:53] And my work has been crazy, which happens from time to time. But because of that, my home group meetings had to take a back step 'cause they are a weekend meeting. And so I haven't been able to make it to quite as many as I would like as frequently. I think everyone's got their sweet spot. Mine is at least two meetings a week, and that hasn't been a possibility as much recently. I made a New Year's resolution, I suppose you could call it, to myself this year, to do all of the four daily readers every day. And I so far have kept up with that. Every now and then I'll miss a day, but I'll read it the next morning, like first thing the next morning instead if I forget the day and then I just catch up right away.

[00:53:31] Because I continued to prioritize that and at least still one meeting a week. It has helped keep me self-aware and practicing my Al-Anon tools. So even though I haven't necessarily been making the meetings or doing as much person to person contact as I would like, in my personal recovery, Al-Anon is still staying at the forefront of my mind, because of those daily readings.

[00:53:53] So yeah, the conference approval literature is a huge tool for me to make sure that I'm, not forgetting everything I've learned and restarting over and over again. Which has been important because I, I had mentioned earlier in the show that at one point I'd cut contact with my qualifier.

[00:54:08] That's no longer the case. we do have a relationship again, and he is starting to get more involved in my life, which I appreciate, but also becomes with its own set of challenges, as I'm sure you can imagine. Especially Yeah, with his, his, he is say he's actively in recovery and I am so thankful for that every day.

[00:54:30] But as much as a lot of us wish it would solve every problem, sobriety doesn't necessarily fix everything. So there are still challenges that we face. And so keeping Al-Anon at the forefront of my mind has been especially helpful to continue figuring out where I need to set boundaries and how to navigate this new relationship that we're building, that is something we've never attempted before.

[00:54:52] Really just always thankful for this program day in and day out. It has been a life saver for me.

Upcoming

[00:54:58] Spencer: Looking forward in the podcast, I have an episode scheduled with a guest to talk about their experience, strength, and hope, recovering from the impact of somebody else's drinking on their life, which is, you know, why most of us are here. Right? So I don't really know what's coming next, but it's gonna be good.

[00:55:19] We always welcome your thoughts. You can join our conversation here by leaving a voicemail or sending an email with your feedback or your questions. And Brenda, how can people do that?

[00:55:30] Brenda W: You can send a voice memo or email to feedback at the recovery dot show, or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 7 3 4 7 0 7 8 7 9 5. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer. We'd love to hear from you. Share your experience, strength, and hope, or your questions about today's topic of dating before and in recovery.

[00:55:54] If you have a topic you'd like us to talk about, let us know. And if you would like advanced notice for some of our topics so that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback at the recovery dot show and put email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.

[00:56:09] Spencer, where can listeners find out more about the recovery show?

[00:56:13] Spencer: That would be our website, which as you might have guessed, is the recovery dot show. We have all the information about the show there, mostly notes for each episode, which includes links to the book or books that we read from videos for the music that in this case Brenda chose.

[00:56:33] Recently, I went in to my statistics and I found the most commonly listened to top 10 episodes. Episodes that obviously people have found valuable because they've been listened to many, many times. And when I hear from people who say yes, sometimes I play a show over and over and over again. I think that must be what's happened to these.

[00:56:57] Last week I talked about sequence of episodes, which mostly doesn't matter, but we've done sequence on the 12 Steps, at least twice. Did a sequence on the traditions, a sequence on the concepts of service. It'd probably be good to have a place where you can go and find, here are the episodes about the 12 steps in order, that kind of thing. So I'm thinking about putting that kind of a page up too.

Song 2

[00:57:19] Spencer: You picked a couple more songs. What's the next one?

[00:57:22] Brenda W: The next song is Day One by Matthew West. So that song, it's a reminder for me not to live in the past. 'cause really all we can do is shape our future. It starts like our slogan and Al-Anon one day at a time. Each day is a chance to work on being the best version of ourselves.

[00:57:39]

Listener Feedback

[00:57:47] Spencer: Let's hear from you now.

[00:57:48] Danielle wrote, hi Spencer. I was wondering whether you have ever done episodes on alcohol related dementia and or on caregiving for someone whose alcoholism led to them requiring care.

[00:58:00] My husband sustained a severe brain injury last year as a result of his drinking after months in the hospital and nursing home. He has now been home for about seven months.

[00:58:10] Thanks to the program. I knew I had a choice about whether to bring him home or to have him continue residing in a long-term care facility. I made the choice that felt right at the time, and I continue to try my best to take this stage of life one day at a time, balancing my responsibilities to him with those of myself.

[00:58:28] But it's hard. As a codependent with control issues who has only been in the program a couple of years, it can still be really hard for me to identify my motives. Am I really making decisions that need to be made to protect his safety? Or am I just trying to exercise control over a situation in which I am powerless? Usually that would be his choices and behaviors that I think are wrong.

[00:58:51] I'm gonna pause here because, this whole question of what's my motive, has been big for me and I would suggest it can be really helpful to talk it out with a sponsor or another program friend. They may be able to see a little more clearly what your motives are, than you can yourself. And it is something that for me, has taken a lot of practice and I'm sure I still get it, quotes wrong at times. Back to Danielle's letter.

[00:59:22] Plus I'm only 40 years old. The lasting impacts on him physically and cognitively have meant that he requires 24 7 supervision and significant care. He doesn't remember much from the prior five years during which times 50 plus years of drinking progressed to an uncontrolled state. He lost his job and had become isolated from most of his friends and family, including his kids. I was considering leaving our marriage because I didn't know if I could tolerate his behavior anymore.

[00:59:49] He doesn't remember any of this. I assume it is his higher powers way of protecting him, but it's a heavy burden to be the person left with these memories and having to explain why others may not be showing up for him and why I can often respond sideways, too.

[01:00:04] I have a lovely sponsor and amazing Al-Anon fellows who have helped me through this, but I have yet to find anyone locally with similar life experiences. Some of the TBI caregiver support groups I found online are helpful, but I haven't found the same understanding, love and peace of Al-Anon in those spaces.

[01:00:21] TBI is traumatic brain injury, right? Yeah.

[01:00:24] By the grace of God, I have been released of the most overwhelming levels of anger and resentment that I felt when he first came home. However, I'd appreciate learning from others how they managed to grieve the loss of what their lives could have been, forgive their loved one for the effects of their disease and care for themselves while caring for someone else when that person's condition is a consequence of their own behavior.

[01:00:47] I brought up alcohol related dementia because my husband's cognitive symptoms are much like dementia in some respects, and on some days he seems totally normal, but his executive function and reasoning skills have been impaired. They very much reflect his mother who has Alzheimer's and who we have watched decline over the past 10 years.

[01:01:07] I've listened to the episode about your parents' dementia and know you can appreciate how heartbreaking it is to watch someone go through this, but also how emotionally triggering it can be because of how the behaviors mirror someone who is actively drinking, hearing from someone who has cared for a loved one with that form of dementia might be a helpful perspective for me as well. I have so many emotions jumbled up. I recognize forgiveness and detachment are key, but some days those are easier said than done.

[01:01:34] Thank you for reading this very long message and for your consideration of these topics. I'm very grateful for your continued service. Sincerely, Danielle.

[01:01:42] And then she adds ps I realize this never sounds good when people share it, but you and your guests helped me fall asleep every night for at least three months this past winter. And rather than setting a timer, I had the podcast play all night so that if slash when I would wake up and my mind started racing, I could be enveloped by the piece of the program and get some much needed rest. The only challenge is that now I don't know which episodes I've actually listened to versus slept through. Smiley face. Thank you. Oh, thank you, Danielle, for writing. And that does sound like just, a really difficult situation. I'm reminded of the question that I've heard, asked about when somebody is in a relationship and can't decide whether to stay or to leave. And that question is, do I wanna stay today? If the answer to that is yes, or maybe I don't know, then you stay for the day. When it becomes, no, definitely not. Then it's time to do something else.

[01:02:42] Julie sent a short note wondering where the donate button is. I get this one a lot actually. On a computer, it'll be to the right of the main content. On a smaller device, which is to say a phone or possibly a tablet, it'll be below the main content. Just scroll, scroll, scroll. It's down there.

[01:03:01] Anonymous wrote. I want to share a little bit more about me since I just looked through the list of topics and I don't see what I'm about to share. I made my way into Al-Anon after my husband attempted suicide by overdosing on pills while drinking changed, his mind, and then ended up in inpatient rehab for two months.

[01:03:18] He was dealing with major depression and alcoholism, and I learned that that is called dual diagnosis. I saw that you had an episode about teens and self-harm, but I wonder if you have ever covered mental health and suicide in adult alcoholics? I just learned that my spouse attempted suicide three times over the past year, and he only did it when he was drinking. Maybe this is more a topic for an AA podcast.

[01:03:42] The suicide component has affected me though, obviously, and it is part of the family disease of alcoholism. I have also experienced suicidal ideation, but I have always sought counseling when I've gotten consumed with those feelings.

[01:03:55] Anyway, it's just a topic idea.

[01:03:57] Thank you for writing and, and sharing a bit about your situation. I know that other people in the program, do have loved ones who struggle with a dual diagnosis of some sort. And in fact, that has been the case in my life, although never reached the, uh, suicide stage. And yeah, it is more difficult as the codependent than just simple alcoholism. Yes. nothing simple about alcoholism, though.

[01:04:24] I think if we could do it an episode on that, it would be helpful to a lot of people. I would want to, again, to reach out to other people who, are willing to share their own experience, strength, and hope on this topic of living with somebody who has alcoholism and depression, or some other dual diagnosis.

[01:04:42] Thank you.

[01:04:44] Patrick wrote, now that you've finished the steps, I would suggest you do a series on the traditions. And I wrote back and said, that's a great idea. I did one back in 2014 with Ruth. And I think it's time to revisit them, especially since my understanding I think has changed in the past decade plus.

[01:05:02] Sherry left us a voicemail.

[01:05:06] Sherry: Good morning. This is Sherry and I am calling in with an idea for a show. I have been in Al-Anon for 42 years, and the program that I've added to Al-Anon is Debtors Anonymous. After hearing the Couples Recovery show, and the conversation that you all were having about money. One of the things that Debtors Anonymous does is it brings in the element of a spiritual solution, but it also brings in the element of structure, like you were talking in the couples recovery program.

[01:05:45] So I just wanted to put it out there that, there's a lot to address with men and women in Al-Anon. Particularly people like me who rescue and bail people out. I bailed my husband out for years before I got into Debtors Anonymous and I stopped that. So that's my idea.

[01:06:05] Thank you.

[01:06:07] Spencer: Thank you, Sherry, for sharing that. As somebody who definitely had some financial issues,during the alcoholic years and then recovering from them after, I can see where that could be a very helpful program. I think I've had other people write in saying, yes, they've found a lot of value in doubters anonymous.

[01:06:25] I would be interested in doing an episode if somebody, like Sherry, is interested in doing it with me because again, I have not been in that program, so I'd be relying on you to share your experience, strength, and hope about it. That's it for this week, for what we're hearing from you. ThanKs.

Thank you, Brenda

[01:06:44] Spencer: Brenda, thank you for joining me today for talking about your experience in dating before, during recovery, I won't say after, because recovery hopefully is an ongoing journey for you.

Song 3

[01:06:57] Spencer: One more song. What is it?

[01:06:59] Brenda W: The last song is called Just The Way You Are by Bruno Mars. This one was a pop hit for quite a while, and it's been a favorite of mine since I was a teenager back then. When I first heard the song, I hoped that someday someone would see the whole authentic me and still feel that way about me. But now, after spending some time in Al-Anon and going through my healing journey, I've learned that I need to feel this way about myself first, so that I can let out my full self to those chosen people in my life. So it's, or just kinda a reminder that we're all amazing just the way we are

[01:07:31] I will admit that there's been a couple times where I will play it when I'm like getting ready for bed or like getting ready in the morning for work. I will sing this song and look at myself in the mirror and sing it at me.

Outro

[01:07:45] Spencer: Thank you for listening. Please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you are facing today, feel free to contact us so that we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding, love and peace grow in you one day at a time.