[00:00:00] Spencer: I'm sitting here today on our cruise ship with Patrick B. You wrote to me about the question Is Al-Anon for men? Now we're both men. We're both an Al-Anon, so feels like the answer is yes, but I think you have some questions or issues.

[00:00:20] Patrick B: Hi, I'm Patrick. Yeah, I wrote you and the question I posed was, is Al-Anon really for men?

[00:00:29] Spencer: Really for men? Okay.

[00:00:31] Patrick B: Is it really for men?

[00:00:33] Spencer: Welcome to episode 437 of The Recovery Show.

[00:00:37] We are friends and family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction. Understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:55] Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program. During this show, we will share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you'll find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:01:12] My name is Spencer. I am your host today. As you heard, Patrick and I had a conversation while on a cruise following the AA International Convention this year. We did not follow the usual script for a podcast episode, so there will be no lives in recovery segment, no songs and no listener feedback. Here's our conversation.

[00:01:33] Patrick B: I'm looking at Al-Anon and I'm seeing 15% men. And I'm thinking, men are as affected by other people's drinking as women are. And the disease of alcoholism affects women about as much as it affects men. I go to several open AA meetings and I see a good proportion of women at those meetings, so surely they affect some men somewhere. So I'm questioning why are there not more men attracted to Al-Anon?

[00:02:14] Spencer: Good question.

[00:02:14] I , just want to, share my experience, definitely many of the meetings that I go to or have gone to have more women than men, no question. One of my home group meetings, I have a couple that I've done service in, so maybe they're both home groups, there's a fair number of men in that meeting.

[00:02:37] The meeting really shrunk during the pandemic. We went online and some people who had been regulars for whatever reason, did not make that transition. For a long time there was a core of about six people in that meeting, three of them were men. Cool. Since then, we're growing slowly, which is probably better than growing fast. I was in a meeting recently, and some people didn't show up. At one point, and I think some more people came in after, it was like four guys and one woman.

[00:03:13] So. It can happen, but you're right. When we look at the membership survey, and I think that's where you're getting that 15% number from,

[00:03:21] Patrick B: right?

[00:03:22] Spencer: majority of Al-Anon members are clearly women. When I listen to somebody like give an open talk about, oh, I went into my first meeting and it was all these blue-haired ladies. Right? Okay. I don't know if that expression is so common these days, but in older women and the average age at which people come into Al-Anon from the survey, I think it was like 45, and the average age of people in the program is over 60.

[00:03:51] So you also got that thing going on, right? So men and younger people. So why, what do you think?

[00:03:59] What's going on here?

[00:04:00] Patrick B: I know that, and I tell people, I tell newcomers that, that when you're looking for a meeting, if you see at least a quarter men to a third men in a meeting, to me that's kind of a litmus test that means that it's a good meeting.

[00:04:18] Hmm.

[00:04:19] Because men tend to find the good meetings. And go to those, not that women don't have good meetings, but it's just that it's been my experience that when there's a higher percentage of men, then it generally means that there's a better experience, strength, and hope there.

[00:04:40] Now why is that? That's the question. We do know that men are different from women in a lot of ways. And one of the ways we're different is relationships and relationally. Women are better at forming relationships and talking with each other. Men don't talk to each other that much.

[00:05:05] So if you have a program where it depends upon talking to other people, and also men, we are programmed to be strong and independent. And we are the ones to be the leaders and to be the, back in my generation, the John Wayne Kind of guy. It's hard for an Al-Anon to recognize that we have a problem and have a disease. It's doubly hard for an Al-Anon man to recognize that we have something. I wouldn't have gone to Al-Anon. My story is I tried everything else. I told my wife that we were going to be happy when I married her, and she says, well, how do you know that? And I says, because it's my job to make you happy, and when I make you happy, I will be happy. And she says, okay, I'll let you.

[00:06:02] Spencer: Says the proto Al-Anon here.

[00:06:04] Patrick B: Yes.

[00:06:05] Spencer: Oh, if I make you happy, then I'll be happy.

[00:06:07] Patrick B: And after 10 years, neither one of us was happy, but we both agreed it was my fault. So I went through a lot of therapy, I went through a lot of other things. I started out in another program and got to the point where I said, oh, I can only clean my side of the street and my side of the street's full of potholes. One time, not a burning bush, but God spoke to me and said, go to Al-Anon, and I told God that he was crazy. Because I didn't have, my wife wasn't an alcoholic. My parents weren't alcoholic, her parents were not alcoholic. And I said, God, I don't have any alcoholics in my life. I don't belong in Al-Anon. And he quietly said, okay, go do more research.

[00:06:57] And still nothing else worked until I got desperate enough to say, I've gotta try something else. Nothing else worked. I tried Al-Anon and every time I was sitting in a meeting, someone say, well before Al-Anon, I used to do this and this and this, and I go, oh, I do that and that. And then someone else would say, oh yeah, before Al-Anon I did that and that and that. And I go, yeah, I do that, and that and that. So every time somebody spoke, I heard my story.

[00:07:29] I knew that I had been raised by a mother who was unrecovered Al-Anon, and I inherited the disease from her. And who affected her? I have no idea, but there were a lot of family secrets that never came down. So I knew that I belonged in Al-Anon because that's the only thing that got me to where I knew that I needed help.

[00:07:58] But why are there not more men in Al-Anon? Has God not spoken to them? I don't know.

[00:08:06] Spencer: I do identify with this feeling that as a man. I was child in the sixties, came of age in the seventies. And the prevailing societal message certainly was, men have to be strong, men have to be able to do anything. I had a model in my father who, in my young eyes, could do everything that he put his hands to. He could fix things. He could build things.

[00:08:42] Looking back, I don't think I got a very good education in relationships from him. I see him as a loving father, but I don't think he ever said that. So I get this message that, that I'm supposed to be able to do it. I'm supposed to be able to fix it. I'm supposed to be able to make things right.

[00:09:03] So then I get in an alcoholic relationship. I get in a relationship with an alcoholic, however you wanna look at it. The relationship eventually was very alcoholic. I'll just say that. And, I'm supposed to fix it. And it becomes pretty clear that I can't fix it, but I keep trying.

[00:09:20] Patrick B: Right.

[00:09:22] Spencer: It took me a number of years after the alcoholism became apparent, before I was willing to give Al-Anon on a try.

[00:09:32] The first meeting that I went to, and that was my home group for a long time. Had some men in it and was a very healthy meeting. I don't know what the proportion was. I wasn't counting heads at that point.

[00:09:44] Patrick B: Right.

[00:09:44] Spencer: There were some people in that meeting with decades of recovery. The meeting, centered on topics from the book, how Al-Anon works. Was a lead, discussion meeting.

[00:09:57] Interestingly, at some point this question about crosstalk came up and the group conscience never made an explicit statement about crosstalk, but there wasn't any. And I think that was because we followed the model of the people who were already there. You know, share once and shut up. Also, it was a big meeting.

[00:10:18] Before COVID changed everything, and that meeting actually split into an online and a in-person meeting after COVID. There could be 60 to a hundred people in that meeting. So not everybody gets a chance to speak.

[00:10:31] Patrick B: Right..

[00:10:33] Spencer: But it was very healthy meeting. Emphasis on sponsorship, which many Al-Anon meetings don't. I'm grateful that that was the meeting that I found on the recommendation of an AA friend of mine. It's funny how our higher power works sometimes. I called this AA friend and said, you know, I think I need to go to Al-Anon. And he said, well, there's a really good meeting. It's right across the street from me . It's tonight. Would you like me to take you and introduce you to a couple people? and I said, well, I'll have to think about that. Good pre Al-Anon there. You know, 30 seconds later I called him back and said, yes.

[00:11:07] It certainly was predominantly women. But it wasn't all older women. Let me think. Okay. This was 20 something years ago. I was in my mid forties. There were a few people that were younger than me. I do live in a college town. I think that makes a difference.

[00:11:22] 'cause that's the other thing, right? The younger people, I mean, during the school year. September to April, we do get a fair number of younger people coming into the meetings. During the summer, not so much because they all went away.

[00:11:35] Patrick B: Right.

[00:11:36] Spencer: I went, I think, once or maybe twice, to a Men's Al-Anon meeting in town. I did not find myself identifying with that meeting. You know, I've heard a lot of women in AA say when they're told to stick with the women, like, I don't like women. I don't know how to get along with women. Well, I had that problem. I didn't really know how to get along with men. I think I felt more comfortable with the women around me Rather than, a men's meeting.

[00:12:02] But I do see a lot of people come in and then they don't come back. And I don't know if that happens more for men in the meetings that I'm in than for women.

[00:12:11] In, this small meeting that I'm talking about. We in the last few months gained two men and two women who are coming pretty regularly, you know. That feels good.

[00:12:25] Is Al-Anon really for men? What is it about, is there something like that you see in the way the program is structured or something that that also raises that question?

[00:12:36]

[00:12:36] Patrick B: Well, the disease of Al-Anon disease of relationships. Yeah. it's focusing on learning some basic concepts about detachment and boundaries, and things like that. it just, there's a large focus on the peace and love of the program.

[00:12:57] You know, when I go to say a new meeting, I'm immediately looked at suspect of, am I there to 13th step women? You know, what's my motive for being there? And so I'm already under a cloud until I've proven my point that yes, I am there to recover and to share my experience, strength, and hope. and it's hard when, my primary love language is physical touch. And asking for hugs in a women predominant meeting is difficult because a lot of women have negative experiences with men physically.

[00:13:40] So, yeah. my question is, is it for men? Meaning that Yeah. it's seems to be more designed for the way a woman is built internally, than the way a man is built internally. So that would be where I think, is it really for men? I've been to men's only meetings. And a lot of time, now not every time, because I do belong to a men's only meeting that is focused on the steps. And every week we do it the next step. And we're only steps. Whereas if it's a straight topic meeting, I have seen men's meetings, degrade into a feeling fest.

[00:14:25] I now get to share my feelings and so I'm just going to bring my feelings out. And I don't take what you like and leave the rest. I don't need to take that from listening to another guy, share his feelings.

[00:14:38] Harder for a man to feel accepted, I believe, in an Al-Anon meeting. You get accepted in an AA meeting if you're an alcoholic because everybody is rah rah, you're here, you're finally

[00:14:51] breaking through possibly, whereas you don't get that in an Al-Anon meeting. I don't get that in an Al-Anon meeting, let me put it that way.

[00:15:00] Spencer: One of the things that I see about gender in recovery meetings and in particular in the AA program and the Al-Anon program, and this may be because of the fact that my wife is the primary qualifier in my life. AA has women's meetings. There may be men's meetings. I'm not aware of them, of course.

[00:15:21] Patrick B: Right.

[00:15:21] Spencer: Al-Anon has men's meetings and I know there exist women's meetings. In Alcoholics Anonymous, certainly in the early days it was all men. Right? And like, do we let this woman in? What? Women are alcoholics too. I think also one of the reasons that there's women's meetings is, you know, because of 13 stepping. Mm-hmm. but also, and I hear this from my wife, that men can dominate conversation, can dominate the exchange of ideas and, and experience strength and hope. And that she feels she, she needs to be in a meeting where that's not happening.

[00:16:03] When I look at the levels in Al-Anon above the meeting, and I have some small experience there, having been a group rep for a while. Many of the group reps are women. And thus when I go to Area Assembly, most of the people at Area Assembly are women. The last two delegates from my area have been women. Most of the officers at the area level are women. why is that? You know?

[00:16:31] Patrick B: Right.

[00:16:32] Spencer: is it that in our society, women traditionally have more time available to do that kind of thing?

[00:16:40] Patrick B: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:41] It's all very confusing to me. yeah, I agree. In my area, in Georgia, let's see, the last, I think four delegates have been women and I think I can only name one that was a male. Many years ago . I would say 90% of our trusted servants at the area level are women. What also brought this to mind was listening to your podcast and then other people that you've had on your podcast. I started listening to Adult children podcasts. And realized that there might be something in that program for me. I've started to going to ACA meetings. And there are more men. It's almost 50%.

[00:17:31] Spencer: Really?

[00:17:32] Patrick B: Yes. I go to an in-person meeting and it's at least 50% men, if not more.

[00:17:38] The women there seem more accepting, but they also have stronger boundaries. They don't hug, much to my chagrin, but, that's the way it is.

[00:17:50] So that's what got me thinking was why in a CA, which is a very similar kind of issues,

[00:17:58] Spencer: right.

[00:17:59] Patrick B: than Al-Anon. Yeah. Um, and it was started by Alateens that aged out.

[00:18:05] Spencer: Yeah. And the primary one, whose name I can't bring to mind was a guy.

[00:18:11] Patrick B: Right.

[00:18:12] Spencer: That's interesting. I hadn't thought about it. So now I'm thinking, well, okay, like equal numbers of men and women have parents.

[00:18:20] Patrick B: Right.

[00:18:20] Spencer: ,

[00:18:21] it's equally likely for a daughter or a son to have an alcoholic parent. So the incoming population seems more balanced. You said earlier that you, you think that there's equal numbers of male and female alcoholics, and maybe the statistics that I've seen are old. But my understanding was that there's an inherited alcoholism tendency that shows up more in men than in women. And so there is some skew in the population that succumb. It might be 60 40 or something.

[00:18:57] Patrick B: Right.

[00:18:58] Spencer: Then you say, well, okay, who are friends and family of those alcoholics? And even if you say who's married to an alcoholic, you might expect to still see, you know, the same number of men in Al-Anon that are married to women who are alcoholics and women in Al-Anon who are married to men who are alcoholics, leaving out the children of, and parents of. And there's parents, right? I mean, one child becomes an alcoholic. Both parents are affected,

[00:19:28] Patrick B: right?

[00:19:28] Spencer: Why are they not both coming to Al-Anon,

[00:19:30] Patrick B: right?

[00:19:31] Spencer: I saw that with some friends of mine in program, when their son was like going crazy into his alcoholism as a teenager, they both started coming. Only the woman kept coming. I don't know why. You know, I don't talk to people who don't come. I don't know why they didn't come. Right.

[00:19:48] Patrick B: Right.

[00:19:49] Spencer: That one actually is like a really good question for me. And it's not always the case. There definitely couples who both come. But it seems like frequently if only one of them comes, it's the mother.

[00:20:00] That brings us around to a question that I don't really feel qualified to solve or answer. Which is if there's something inherent in the way Al-Anon is structured in the way our literature is written, in the way we structure our meetings, in the way we behave in our meetings. In the way we attract rather than promote. Is there something we could do to help Al-Anon be more welcoming to men?

[00:20:28] Patrick B: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:30] Spencer: Because that, to me, is something, the only thing, that we could do to reach out to those men out there who are suffering as the husband, child, parent, friend,

[00:20:43] of an alcoholic and are not coming because they don't think Al-Anon is for them.

[00:20:49] I mean, I didn't come for a long time 'cause I didn't know about it, and then I didn't come for a long time because I didn't think I needed it. And I've heard that from both men and women. So that's not unique.

[00:20:57] Patrick B: Right.

[00:20:58] It's the disease that tells you, you don't have it. On both sides .

[00:21:03] Spencer: Do You have thoughts on, on what Al-Anon could do? I'm not even gonna say what we could do. But if, if Al-Anon wanted to do something, we could be part of it.

[00:21:12] Right. what Al-Anon could do to be not just more welcoming.

[00:21:19] In my church congregation, central values, that we work towards is what we're calling radical welcome, which means not only do you say hi, welcome, glad to see you keep coming back, but actually take some time to understand the people that are coming in. Be willing to be changed by the people who are coming in.

[00:21:41] Patrick B: Mm.

[00:21:41] Spencer: If you want to bring in people who are not just like you, you can't expect them to change, to be just like you.

[00:21:51] Patrick B: Right.

[00:21:52] Spencer: You gotta be willing to move a little bit, at least a little bit, in their direction, too.

[00:21:58] I wonder if there's something in the way that a lot of Al-Anon meetings at least, are structured or who's there. Is there something there that is causing people who come in to say, well, I'm not like these people. I'm not gonna feel at home here, so I'm gonna go away. That kind of informs my thinking about what might Al-Anon do to be more radically welcoming?

[00:22:26] Patrick B: Right.

[00:22:27] You know, I have been pondering this for a few months and I've asked a couple of guys to say, yeah, you know, why does it seem like we don't have, and one guy, and now this is a sample of one. So may or may not be true, but he said, he's an author and he had written an article or two for the forum.

[00:22:48] Spencer: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:49] Patrick B: And he said. That his male voice of that article got neutered out of the article.

[00:22:58] Spencer: Interesting.

[00:22:59] Patrick B: So he vowed never to write another article for the forum because it, it had been so edited, that he thought it was not really what he said?

[00:23:10] So I don't know how much. Wow.

[00:23:12] Spencer: Okay. Yeah. That's extreme.

[00:23:15] Patrick B: Yes. You know, the big book is not conference approved literature, but many Al-Anons use it and many men use it, because they find it useful. Yes, it's from the alcoholic's perspective, but that doesn't mean it's not useful for fighting our disease. And there is the little known fact that To Wives and The Family Afterwards, chapters eight and nine are actually conference approved literature. It is recommended not to be used because it's from the alcoholic's perspective.

[00:23:50] Right. And it's not from our perspective? But it is in the male voice.

[00:23:55] Spencer: I could certainly see if, anybody feels shut down, not able to fully share their own experience, strength, and hope and in their own voice,

[00:24:04] Patrick B: right?

[00:24:05] Spencer: Turning that around, what if his article in his voice had been read by somebody who then was more able to identify with it because they were a man, and they, they were like, oh, there are guys out there who have this experience. And I can identify with that. This guy found help and maybe I can too.

[00:24:27] I think there's a danger in homogenization.

[00:24:30] Patrick B: Yeah. Right.

[00:24:31] Spencer: Which is sort of what happened in his experience,

[00:24:34] Patrick B: right?

[00:24:35] Spencer: When you homogenize it, when you degender it, you potentially speak to more people, but you take out the personality of the person who's speaking. And I think that is dangerous.

[00:24:47] Here's an example. In one of my meetings, we're reading the stories in how Al-Anon works. We got to a story that was about the experience of a war veteran who felt that Al-Anon saved his life, literally saved his life. He was gonna kill himself, and he went to an Al-Anon meeting instead. And my first reaction to that notice I said reaction, right? One of the things we try to learn in recoveries, respond rather than react. My first reaction was I don't identify with this guy's experience. He was a Vietnam War vet. He had PTSD that was causing all kinds of crap in his life. And on top of that, I think alcoholic father. I had to take a moment, and I had to look at the feelings underneath the experiences and the actions that say, well, I identify with this feeling of despair and fear. I can identify with those feelings. Somebody who had a similar experience to that man would probably, much more strongly identify with the whole story. I had to say what parts of this to identify?

[00:25:57] Because there's that whole thing about, you know, don't compare, identify. Right?

[00:26:01] Patrick B: Right.

[00:26:01] Spencer: Don't find your differences. Find your points of similarity. And I tried to do that. .

[00:26:05] At another meeting, we read a story by an Alateen, and that one also was hard for me to identify with because I don't have that direct experience.

[00:26:19] That was hard to do in the Alateen story also for me. Right. 'cause that's not my experience. You know, I grew up in a home with a probably adult child mother. I know that the male side of her family has a alcoholic lineage in her brother and his son, both self-admitted. And so I you know, wonder about my grandfather. What I do know is that she had a whole bunch of adult child behaviors. a lot of codependency. Mm-hmm. I learned my codependency honestly, at my mother's knee. So, you know, I've got that, but I don't have the experience of living with active alcoholism until I was an adult. I'm off topic here, but those two stories were powerful because of the reality of the experience that was described. I feel like if you tried to take that and generalize it, the story would lose a lot of its power and yeah. So there's how many stories? There's like 40 stories or something? Mm-hmm. Okay. You got room there to have some outliers.

[00:27:24] Patrick B: Right?

[00:27:26] Spencer: One person out of a hundred is gonna identify well. And maybe that person doesn't identify with any of the other stories. The stories about the nun and the gay man and, you know, all of those other stories. Those are in that book. And that book was written in the early nineties, right? It was published like 95 or something.

[00:27:42] It was, you know, the Al-Anon textbook when I came into the program in 2002. So it took me a while to realize that there, there was what, 40 something years of Al-Anon where that book didn't exist.

[00:27:57] Patrick B: Right.

[00:27:58] Spencer: The stories in there speak in a voice that I can hear also because it's, it's mid nineties language. It's not 1935 language.

[00:28:06] Patrick B: Right.

[00:28:07] Spencer: The forum comes out every month. We should have some stories over here. You can't see me, sorry. Podcast listener. Some stories over here and some stories over there and, and, and some right here in the middle. You know, and I'm moving my hands around and, and Patrick is nodding.

[00:28:24] You know, I haven't read enough of the Forum to see a pattern there and it, it is probably really subtle and you won't see it unless like you knew what happened.

[00:28:32] Patrick B: And this was many years ago. Yeah. So I don't know how current may, maybe,

[00:28:36] Spencer: maybe the editorial. Yeah. Uh, I, I do have the experience of reading in one of the daily readers. I was hearing it in a female voice until I got to a point where suddenly the gender of the writer became clear and it was a man. I was like, well, that's interesting. Mm-hmm. You know, that says, my stereotypical view of an Al-Anon member is a woman.

[00:28:58] Even though I'm a man mm-hmm. Even though I know a bunch of men in, in Al-Anon, that's still my stereotypical view of who's in Al-Anon. And maybe I should be writing for the forum so I can put a male voice in there. I don't know. I put my energy into a podcast instead.

[00:29:14] Right. For what it's worth.

[00:29:16] Patrick B: I did think of something that meetings can do because most people don't realize that WSO puts out a men's welcomer packet. item number K 23.

[00:29:29] Spencer: Which you happen to have one right here.

[00:29:31] Patrick B: I happen to pick one up from our LDC and it contains a number of brochures starting with al-Anon is for Men. You know, I don't know any of my meetings, carry this in their literature and buy this packet as a man's newcomer packet. Okay? So

[00:29:51] Spencer: it starts with Al-Anon is for men. Then we have information for the newcomer. Does she drink too much from men about the women in their lives? That's a pamphlet. P 62, A Guide for the Family of the Alcoholic. Okay. Purpose and suggestions. I don't think I've seen this one? So you love an alcoholic. I, I'm pretty sure I've seen that one. Understanding ourselves and a alcoholism. Al-Anon spoken here. Of course, Alateens share with adults in their lives. Just in case you're young. The just for today bookmark and Getting Started, Welcome to your first Al-Anon meeting. But Al-Anon is for men, right there on top. This is P one, like the very first pamphlet. Al-Anon is for men. Yes. Al-Anon is for men.

[00:30:39] These are the headings. Al-Anon is for families and friends of alcoholics. Yep. Okay. A man's point of view. Caught in a bind. Many men feel that one of our primary roles is to keep our lives and our jobs under control, to be sure that our family is well provided for. Yet alcoholism seems to destroy our ability to stay in charge of our lives.

[00:30:59] And I would add to that, parenthetically, this is me, not the pamphlet and everybody else's. I needed to control everybody's lives. Right? It's up to us. A sense of belonging. Yeah. Cool. P one. Okay.

[00:31:15] Patrick B: So it's K 23. I don't remember the price that WSO is charging for them now. But contact your local literature distribution center and see if they have them and have them available at your meeting for when a man shows up as a newcomer.

[00:31:32] Spencer: I'm gonna go back home and I'm going to make sure that both of the meetings that I regularly attend order some of these and that we hand them out.

[00:31:40] Well, if you're listening and you're a man or you know a man who, no, I'm not gonna tell you to bring your man to Al-Anon, but you know, because we know how well that works.

[00:31:52] Patrick B: Right.

[00:31:52] Spencer: Uh, And you're not sure, Al-Anon has worked. For me, it has obviously worked for Patrick. I know a number of other men including my friend Eric, who's been on the podcast a bunch of times, who really have benefited from Al-Anon.

[00:32:08] So for us as men, Al-Anon is for us. You need to decide if it's for you, but don't give up before you really understand what it's about and how it can help.

[00:32:20] Patrick B: And don't leave before the miracle,

[00:32:22] Spencer: whatever that miracle might be.

[00:32:24] Patrick B: Exactly.

[00:32:25] Spencer: I had a number of miracles , in recovery. Starting with removal of rage. Being able to deeply and honestly decide to stay in relationship with my still drinking alcoholic wife. She got sober. That is not an Al-Anon miracle. The fact that I didn't push her into it, I think is an Al-Anon miracle. Mm-hmm. So stick around for the miracles 'cause they do happen. Thanks Patrick. It's, it's been uh, great sitting here. The two purple haired guys on the ship. Thank you Patrick, both for bringing up this topic, for being willing to sit here with me while we're, well, I mean, it's a cruising day, so there's not a whole lot else to do. Anyway,

[00:33:06] Patrick B: we're at sea for the whole day.

[00:33:09] Thank you, Spencer, for having me. I'm honored that you had me on.

[00:33:13] Spencer: So what is your experience? Why do you think there are not more men in Al-Anon? What might you or I do to encourage men to, as I've heard said, come all the way in, sit all the way down and stay.

[00:33:30] The show notes at the Recovery Show slash 4 3 7 will include a link to the men's newcomer packet that Patrick mentioned, from the Al-Anon online bookstore.

[00:33:40] Thank you for listening and please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you are facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding love and peace grow in you one day at a time.