Intro

[00:00:01] Spencer: What do we do in Al-Anon? Tradition Five says we welcome and give comfort to families of alcoholics, we practice the 12 steps ourselves, and we support our alcoholic relatives.

[00:00:13] Welcome to episode 459 of “The Recovery Show.” This episode is brought to you by Sandy and Mary. They used the donation button on our website. Thank you, Sandy and Mary, for your generous contributions. This episode is for you. We are friends and family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness.

[00:00:34] We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery

[00:00:46] Julie: Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12-step program. During this show, we will share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you will find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:01:10] Spencer: My name is Spencer. I am your host today. Joining me today is Julie, and welcome back to the Recovery Show, Julie. I see that you joined me for episode 331 in May of 2020. That was Choosing Love Over Fear One Day at a Time. So glad to have you back

[00:01:28] Julie: Thank you. Glad to be back.

Tradition 5 – Our Purpose

[00:01:31] Spencer: Today we're going to be talking about Tradition Five. We're going to read from chapter sixteen in the book How Al-Anon Works, which is the 12 Traditions. We'll be reading from the section on Tradition Five. And Tradition Five says, “Each Al-Anon family group has but one purpose, to help families of alcoholics. We do this by practicing the 12 steps of AA ourselves, by encouraging and understanding our alcoholic relatives, and by welcoming and giving comfort to families of alcoholics.”

[00:02:04] Could you read the first paragraph from this section?

[00:02:07] Julie: The essence of all healing is love, and the fifth tradition demonstrates the loving nature of the Al-Anon program. In Al-Anon, we learn to love ourselves as well as others. This often means changing both our attitudes and our behavior in all that we do every day. It means putting an end to lingering hostilities and adopting an attitude of tolerance, courtesy, and appreciation in our daily interactions with family and friends.

[00:02:36] Spencer: That's a big ask, you know? Oh, just change our attitudes and our behavior and all that we do every day. That's, yeah, no problem. It's a good thing we have a whole program that helps us to do that, isn't it?

[00:02:51] Julie: Totally. The 12 steps? Yes. Yeah.

[00:02:56] Spencer: Putting an end to lingering hostilities and adopting an attitude of tolerance, courtesy, and appreciation… That sounds wonderful. This is talking about the loving nature of the Al-Anon program, as expressed in this tradition. But wow, I mean, it just dumps us right in here. It's not an easy intro.

[00:03:16] I think if somebody had read this to me when I was new in Al-Anon, I would've thought, “There's no way that's gonna happen. There's no way I could ever do that.” What's your feelings?

[00:03:29] Julie: Same. I would have probably said, if someone had said to me in my beginning days, what are you smoking? What are you on? This is not possible.” It means putting an end to lingering hostilities and adopting an attitude of tolerance, courtesy, and appreciation.I still struggle with lingering hostilities toward the alcoholic in my life. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:54] The main drinker in my life is my dad, and I still find myself with a lingering hostility every now and then. But I've come a long way. In the beginning, that was probably my daily thing, lingering hostilities toward him. And now I can, having worked the twelve steps, I can truly say I love my dad, with all my heart. And I respect and have compassion for who he is, just for today

[00:04:22] Spencer: I think we've gotta throw progress, not perfection in here somewhere. We don't get to this way of living immediately. We don't get there instantaneously. It is a process. It is a goal. It is not like, “Oh, you gotta do that or you can't be in Al-Anon.” We're not saying that in any way.

[00:04:43] I'm gonna move on to the next paragraph. “This love is confirmed by our group's purpose: to help families and friends of alcoholics. We cannot accomplish this entirely at our meetings. While we learn about the Steps by listening to fellow members, we grow by practicing the 12 Steps in our personal lives.” Let me say that again. “We grow by practicing the Steps in our personal lives. We recover as we offer compassion to alcoholics and let others who need our program know what Al-Anon has to offer.”

[00:05:17] Okay, this is a lot easier and softens a little bit, the first paragraph. But it also has a very important, I think, assertion here.

[00:05:30] We learn about the Steps by listening, but we grow by practicing the Steps, and that has definitely been my experience. I don't think I would have the recovery that I have without having practiced those Steps, over and over, really. I've formally gone through the Steps several times in the time I've been in Al-Anon, but also, parts of the principles embodied in those Steps come up all the time in life.

[00:06:00] And remembering those principles and acting on them, has changed the way that I live and has enabled me to put an end to lingering hostilities. And I will say those lingering hostilities, they were not lingering when I walked into these rooms. There was nothing lingering about my hostility towards alcoholism and to some extent, because I hadn't yet been able to detach the person from the disease of alcoholism, towards my loved one. And even though I loved her, I also had hostile attitudes, might even say hate in some ways. Coming to the meetings helped, no question. But for me, working the Steps is what really made the difference. What do you see in this paragraph?

[00:06:54] Julie: I agree with you. So what occurs to me is when I go to my meetings, that's where I hear about steps. My home group, we do a step a month, so I can hear about it from the readings, and I can hear other members share. But I had to actually work the steps myself to actually,get it embedded in my daily life, like you said.

[00:07:19] Progress, not perfection, is such a good reminder because I'm a recovering perfectionist. So I can use Al-Anon program against myself. Like I learn something new, and I immediately, my default is I expect myself to start doing it perfectly. So I have to, practice the steps and fall flat on my face many times, make many mistakes.

[00:07:43] Also I like the saying, trust the process, which I-I've heard in your show multiple times. The only thing I can do is practice the steps to the best of my ability. And what's at the end of that is up to my higher power. What I do know is that the more I practice the steps, the better I feel, and the more love and compassion I can have for myself and for my loved ones.

[00:08:11] Spencer: We had a very early episode 17 was titled “Trusting the Process.” We recognize that as an important principle, I think, in, in working the program. That there is a process, and for me, certainly it was not at all clear how that process was going to make my life better. I had to trust what other people in program said about how it had helped them, and just start doing it. Put one foot in front of another and start going.

[00:08:45] Julie: Oh, true

[00:08:47] Spencer: Are we ready for the next paragraph?

[00:08:49] Julie: Sure. Shall I read it?

[00:08:51] Spencer: Yes, please

[00:08:52] Julie: Okay. If we did not practice these principles in all our affairs, we would notice the effect on our group. Wouldn't it be awful to attend an Al-Anon meeting where everyone complained about the alcoholics, blaming them for all of our problems? Certainly, pent-up resentments need release, and sponsors can be extremely helpful in working on those areas and putting them into perspective. But we don't come together to blame, criticize, and gossip. We come together to recover from the effects of alcoholism on ourselves. We learn that no one else is responsible for solving our problems or making us happy. That is our responsibility. The point is not what others can do to improve, but what we can do to improve. We take the 12 steps because we want to have rich, full, satisfying lives, and no one else can give that to us. Taking the steps is an act of self-love.

[00:09:51] Spencer: How do you see that working for you?

[00:09:54] Julie: I'm being reminded of my early days in program again, where I used to go to meetings and complain about my loved ones, my dad and my mom, non-treated Al-Anon. I used to basically rant and rave and say how these two people who had no business having kids had three kids and that– and now I was miserable.

[00:10:18] I was an adult and it had to be a process for me, and I didn't realize what I was doing. So I guess my hostility wasn't lingering either in the beginning. It was kind of like all ensuing and showing up in a lot of areas of my life.

[00:10:35] As I went to more meetings, and again, I got a sponsor, and I worked the steps,somewhere along the way, I realized I wasn't talking about my problems or complaining about them. I was talking about solutions, or I was talking about how I was applying the steps to working a problem. I've been to some meetings that are not healthy, is what I say, where people do talk about problems and not recovery or solutions. So now that I can tell the difference, I avoid going to those meetings because what I know is that it's not good for me or my recovery.

[00:11:15] Spencer: I am grateful and fortunate, that the meeting that I first walked into… and it wasn't by chance because a friend of mine said, “This is a good meeting.” The meeting that I first walked into really focused on recovery, rather than being a place where people bitched. Which is not to say that there wasn't some, “Oh my God, my alcoholic did this today,” or, “I just can't, I just can't, I can't deal.” There was some of that, but two factors I think really helped keep the tone of that meeting focused on recovery. One is, it was a large meeting, and so not everybody had time to share in the meeting. The other factor is that we had some people in the meeting who had really long-term, solid recovery, and I think that helped set the tone of the meeting. And so people who wanted to bitch and moan would realize, apparently, that, hey, that's not what happens in this meeting.and so it stayed pretty healthy.

[00:12:27] I do remember going to another meeting because I needed more meetings than just one in a week, you know?I went to this meeting, and that is exactly what happened, is everybody at the table I was sitting at was just complaining. And I did not find that helpful. I did not find that uplifting. I did not find that encouraging, and I didn't feel better when I walked out. I said, “This is not the kind of meeting that I want,” because I had had meetings where I felt better when I walked out. So I didn't go back to it, But if that had been the first meeting I ever went to, I don't know. Either I would have said, “Oh, this Al-Anon thing doesn't help at all,” or I would have thought, “Oh, that's what we do here.” And I don't know. I would hope it would be the first, except then I wouldn't have come back, so that's not good. I don't know.

[00:13:25] I think the key point in this paragraph for me is that Al-Anon is for me. And for me to get the benefit, I have to work. Taking the steps is an act of self-love. It's not a chore. It may seem like a chore at times, but it's not.We take the 12 steps because we wanna have rich, full, satisfying lives, and no one else can give that to us. Okay, so that's another thing. I spent probably most of my life thinking that it was other people's responsibilities to make my life pleasant and happy and successful. And you know what? Turns out it's not. No one else can give that to us. I have to do it myself. So I think that's the key thing that this paragraph says to me isI need to do it. I need to do it myself

[00:14:20] Julie: Yes. I've learned that it all starts and ends with me. As you said, I took the steps for myself, for self-love, and I learned that the twelve steps were somewhere, I think in, Paths to Recovery. It says, taking the twelve steps is an incredible journey of, self-discovery. And that's what I found. Now, thanks to the hard work that I've done and to the loving fellowship and my higher power, I get to have a rich, full, satisfying life.

[00:14:51] Spencer: Yeah, absolutely. Next paragraph. I note that we're sort of working our way through the statements in the tradition, right? We just talked about practicing the 12 steps ourselves. Next, we're gonna talk about encouraging and understanding our alcoholic relatives.

[00:15:09] This paragraph says, “Everyone deserves love, even those who have treated us badly. Holding onto blame and resentment hurts us far more than it hurts anyone else. Harboring ill feelings toward the alcoholics in our lives keeps us tied to an ongoing cycle of bitterness that can only make us feel miserable and victimized. Changed attitudes aid recovery. We can strive to understand the alcoholics, recognizing that they suffer from a disease that affects their thoughts and actions. Like any other human beings, they are doing their best with what they have, and they deserve our compassion and respect. Adopting this attitude may be the most generous gift we can give to ourselves.”

[00:15:55] I think I heard from you some of the ways in which this showed up in your life. You wanna enlarge on that?

[00:16:02] Julie: Sure. The moment that I realized that I could forgive my parents, I was in a meeting and someone said,if I forgive, is it like me saying what they did is okay?” And for some reason, in that moment, a light bulb went on in my head and in my heart, and I realized, oh my goodness. Okay, I don't forgive because what my parents did, some of what they did is okay, I forgive because I'm okay now.Some of what my parents did were not okay, never gonna be okay. But I am no longer, that wounded small child, who couldn't escape from an alcoholic home.

[00:16:47] And that's when I realized also, oh, my parents always were and are… every single one of us actually is doing the very best we can and they can with what we have and what we know. It's like in that moment, like that I guess that lingering hostility is sort of like melted away or evaporated from me, and it's like I could see them for the trying human beings that they are. And they also were born, and they have their own history of family dysfunction and trauma. And so a lot of what they did,were results of those things that happened to them as children.

[00:17:25] Spencer: Yeah. This paragraph doesn't say forgive, but that's a word that we use for this process of, and there's that word process again, letting go of blame and resentment, letting go of the ill feelings, bitterness, miserable, and victimized. And that kind of forgiveness is very different from, I think, what some people hear when you say forgive. They hear condone.

[00:17:59] I think I had to make that change in attitude myself.somebody hurt me. I do not condone that action, but I need to let go of the ongoing feelings that I associate with that action, and I can call that forgiveness. Because it's a word that applies in that sense.

[00:18:22] We've got all kinds of slogans that go along with this, right? Like holding onto resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die. That sounds so trite and made up, but, it's also true. When I'm holding onto a resentment, I am poisoning my own attitudes, and I am not harming the person that I resented. So why do I wanna keep it? Okay?

[00:18:52] Julie: Oh, oh, so true. They go on living their lives, regardless if I harbor resentment or not.

[00:18:57] Spencer: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:57] Another thing that really helped me, and it took a while, recognizing that they suffer from a disease that affects their thoughts and actions. I went to some lectures at a treatment center about alcoholism as a disease.But the thing that I did that really helped me to see that alcoholism in my loved one was not a choice of hers, it was not a failing of hers, it was something about the way that she was wired, if you will. The thing that helped me see that was attending Alcoholics Anonymous open talks, hearing many other people who were not my loved one, talk about their experience, how alcohol had basically taken over their lives. I remember one woman talking about her first time. She was, I think, I'd say 14 years old, sharing beers with a couple of friends, and she said at the end of that evening, all she could think of was when would she get to do that again. And I thought, “This is not a choice.”Her body said, “Yes, I want more,” and she was powerless over that. By hearing that sort of experience, from people that were total strangers to me, helped me to see that this was also the case for the person that I loved, and how her behaviors and actions were affected by alcohol didn't mean, as I think it's, my friend Eric who's been on the podcast says, “She wasn't drinking at me.” You know, it wasn't about me.

[00:20:52] That helped a lot. At some point, and I really don't remember how long I'd been in program when I had this visual in my head, that she was in a car, in the passenger seat, and her disease was driving the car and she was there screaming in terror. That's when I really felt compassion for her struggle.

[00:21:16] Julie: I hear that part

[00:21:19] As it says, adopting this attitude can be the most generous gift we give to ourselves, because it freed me from that resentment and anger and hostility.Yeah.

[00:21:33] Spencer: you wanna read the next one?

[00:21:35] Julie: We also extend love to family, friends, and others who, like us, have been affected by another's drinking, carrying our message of hope and healing through the 12 steps. Our literature, public outreach materials, and public service announcements provide information to those who have been affected by another's alcoholism but are unaware that help is available. We also reach out to those families and friends of alcoholics who reside in hospitals and prisons, and we share our information with the medical and therapeutic community. We do not push our philosophy on those who are not interested. We simply and discreetly let it be known that there is help available to those who wish to pursue it.

[00:22:23] Spencer: We talk about step 12 in this, I think, context, carrying the message of hope and healing through the 12 steps. Yeah.

[00:22:31] There was a time, I'd been in program a couple of years, and a friend of mine in program said, “Hey, I'm seeking speakers for a treatment center that has a weekly Al-Anon speaker.” I Guess they had AA speakers the other days. I'd like to know if you would do that.” And I said, “Sure.” I did that for maybe about a year, like once every three months. I would go into this treatment center and tell my story basically. The room had both the people who were in the treatment center and some members of their families. and I hope that, some of the people who were there connected to what I had to say and sought out Al-Anon for themselves.

[00:23:13] We also had, in our town, one of the local treatment centers ran an educational program once a year with different speakers, and they would bring in an Al-Anon panel for one of them, and I participated in that a few times. Again, it was an opportunity to let people know, who maybe had never heard of Al-Anon, that there is help available for you too.So that's part of the way in which I've carried the message.

[00:23:45] Obviously, doing this podcast carries the message in some way. I get emails from people who are like, “I was just searching for something about living with an alcoholic,” or maybe they knew something about Al-Anon, but they weren't ready to go to a meeting and they found the podcast and say, “Oh, this has helped me so much.” and I'm like, “Yeah, that's one of the things that keeps me doing it.” That's some of the ways in which I've been trying to carry the message.

[00:24:12] W- extend love to family, friends, and others who, like us, have been affected by another's drinking. The other thing where I feel that is when a newcomer comes into a meeting. I feel for them ‘ cause I have some idea where they've been, where they are. I have to sort of ride herd on my codependency, but I do wanna do what I can to help them feel better. How about you?

[00:24:36] Julie: Yes. I noticed when there's a newcomer at my home meeting, and afterward I practice making a point to going up to them and chatting with them. And I say something like, “Do you have any questions?” and I offer them my phone number. Most people take it, and I don't hear from most of them. And some people say, “No, thank you.” Then, yeah, I don't insist. I remember what it was like at my first meeting. It was a pretty small meeting, all women's meeting, and there was a couple of lovely women who came up to me, and, I didn't feel so left out. They made an effort to make me feel welcome. I wanna pass that on to newcomers. so I do that.

[00:25:19] Outside of meetings, the part about we simply and discreetly let it be known that there is help available to those who wish to pursue it.I don't share with everyone in my life, but I feel that I am pretty open that I go to Al-Anon. And when I bring it up, some people have no idea what it is. Like, what is that? And I share my experience. and sometimes, depending on the friend that I'm talking with or sharing with, actually quite often, like I, I share snippets of the program, like a slogan or an abbreviation. And I start by saying, “Oh, we have a saying in Al-Anon, such and such.” and yeah. And most of my friends are pretty receptive

[00:26:08] Spencer: I was at church this morning and I was talking to a friend and I was looking at the bulletin board that we were standing in front of. And I noticed, I think it was a bookmark, that was about Al-Anon. I don't remember exactly what it said, like, you know, living with a problem drinker, try Al-Anon. That's not what it said. It said something much better than that. And I was like, that's cool. I didn't put it there,but maybe I should have, could have. Another time, I was traveling and I pulled into a rest area on the highway, in the middle of Kentucky, and I walked into the building, and right there at the door, between the two doors, I think, was this poster. It said, “Not everyone trapped by alcohol is an alcoholic.” I can't even say that without breaking up. Families and friends are suffering too. Do you worry about how much someone drinks? Al-Anon and Alateen can help. The picture shows somebody, I think a woman, but doesn't really matter. It's in silhouette, holding a baby inside a green bottle.

[00:27:23] Julie: oh

[00:27:24] Spencer: Yeah. So powerful, And you can download that as a PDF and print it out yourself. There's some variants on it that have different people, different kinds of people in silhouette and in different shape busters and so on. But that was so powerful, and I was so amazed to see it there.

[00:27:42] Julie: Wow

[00:27:43] Spencer: We let people know. I will put a link to these public outreach posters in the show notes at the recovery dot show slash 459 . You can download the PDF, you can print it out. You don't have to buy it or anything because we wanna reach out.

[00:28:00] I'm gonna read the last paragraph here. There may be no better reminder of what we are attempting to achieve in Al-Anon than the painful struggle of someone who needs help with an alcoholic situation. Al-Anon exists for the sole purpose of helping such families and friends of alcoholics. Our groups carry out this purpose by giving a warm welcome to all newcomers and by giving love, comfort, and support to anyone who seeks it. We try to appreciate what a privilege it is to contribute to a fellow member's freedom from the desperation and despair that accompany alcoholism. I still feel that. Damn it. When any one of us is healed, we all heal a little.

[00:28:41] I can hardly read desperation and despair that accompany alcoholism because it takes me back. It takes me back to what I don't have anymore, but I did have, when I stumbled into, crawled into, however I want to say that, into my first meeting What have you got?

[00:29:02] Julie: This sentence stands out to me. We try to appreciate what a privilege it is to contribute to a fellow member's freedom from the desperation and despair that accompany alcoholism. The fellowship, my sponsor and all the members that I've met at all the meetings that I've gone to, they've certainly contributed to my freedom from the desperation and despair. And now I get to practice, some of that privilege. I get to pay it forward. I have a few sponsees.

[00:29:36] The thing is having this privilege, I feel that with my sponsees or anyone who makes an outreach call to me or who comes to me to reason things out, every single time I feel like I get more out of it than they do. Usually when I'm talking with a sponsee, and my sponsor has told me this too, when I'm talking with a sponsee, the things that are coming out of my mouth are actually the things that I need to exactly remind myself of. Usually I'm like, “Wow, that so applies what's been happening in my life lately.” And not only is it a privilege, like that's the miracle of program. Like now I get to live this life, a satisfying, full life, and I get to share it with others who are still in, darkness.

[00:30:25] Spencer: One of the miraculous things that I see in Al-Anon is other people's recovery It is so moving and amazing to see when a fellow member of Al-Anon makes a breakthrough, makes progress, takes a step towards healing. And to see that in their share, in their expression, in their attitude. And ideally, to be able to reflect that back to them. I remember I'd been in Al-Anon for a while, a few months maybe, and I would practice the meeting after the meeting, as we sometimes call it. First meeting, I ran out the door. But eventually I started sticking around and talking to people afterwards. One person came up to me and said, “You're smiling.” ” I haven't seen you smile before.”So sometimes I need somebody else to reflect that back to me that I am healing, because I hadn't recognized it. But that person did.

[00:31:34] So yeah, we heal together. We do. and it is a privilege. It is a privilege. We talked a couple episodes ago about sponsorship. And how being a sponsor is a privilege. To contribute to somebody else's freedom from the desperation and despair that they came in with.Yeah, it helps them, but it also really helps me in many ways. Part of that is just the joy of seeing somebody finding that freedom, you know?

[00:32:07] Julie: Totally.

[00:32:07] Spencer: Okay, we'll take a little break, talk about music, and then we will continue with Our Lives in Recovery, where we talk about how recovery is showing up in our daily lives.

Song 1

[00:32:19] Spencer: I picked the first song here. You can listen to all of the songs that we've chosen at the website, therecovery.show/459.

[00:32:30] And I picked, and this is probably obvious, I picked the song With a Little Help From My Friends. That was the first one that came to me. But I decided to go with the Joe Cocker version rather than the Beatles version. And I will admit that some of the lyrics don't really speak to recovery, but the theme of the song is that I need you, and maybe you need me, but I know I need you. I need my friends in order to get by, in order to recover, in order to heal. I can't do it on my own. That's why this was the first obvious pick for me.

Our Lives in Recovery

[00:33:19] Spencer: In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery. How have we experienced recovery recently?

[00:33:26] I wanna talk about something that happened today. I was in church and the service, it's Memorial Day weekend, not everybody's there, so it's a little bit different than usual. Several people from our congregation each spoke about something that they value, how that has directed, affected, led their life. Before that happened, the minister got up, he says, “We're gonna do a little interactive thing here. I want you to turn to somebody else. Preferably not a person you came with. And I want you to talk about one value that you hold and how you exhibit it … That's not his exact words. I'm interpreting it. And of course, I felt like a deer in a headlight. Ah, what am I gonna say? Actually four of us came together to do this exercise, this interaction. And I'll tell you what, just before I get to what actually happened, the energy in the room was tangible. People were just talking and he actually had to, at the end, he had to speak up several times to get people to settle down and stop talking.

[00:34:37] That was pretty cool. I thought, what is a value that I hold? What is something that directs my life? The thing that came to me was love. I was really thinking about the love that I feel in the rooms, that I feel for other people in the rooms, and that I feel from other people in the rooms, and how that loving support. And what a coincidence that we're talking about this today. There is no such thing as a coincidence, right?As another friend of mine says, “Is it odd or is it God?” I think it's God that these two came together because this tradition is about that love and the way we express that love in the program. You know, in our closing, we love you in a very special way.

[00:35:28] There's a lot of other ways in which I express love in my life, but I know I would not have said that without the experience of recovery, the experience of that very special kind of love that I feel in the rooms. I would not have said that. I don't know what I would've said. I might've said science or something like that, which is also important in my life. So that's one way in which recovery is expressing itself in my life today.

[00:35:56] And I'll pass

[00:35:58] Julie: Wow, that's profound. Thank you for sharing, Spencer. Is it odd or is it God? Is that what you said?

[00:36:05] Spencer: Is it odd or is it God? I've probably heard it before, but the person who said it such that I heard it and kept it, was a fellow Al-Anon member named Catherine who spoke at a convention I was at recently.

[00:36:19] Julie: Wow, I have not heard that before. I'm gonna take that with me. yeah, I don't believe in coincidences or accidents. I used to before Al-Anon. Now I know what… Yeah. What I believe is everything happens exactly the way it's supposed to. I don't know that everything happens for a reason.

[00:36:39] Sometimes people say that. With how neurotic I can get, if I sit there and think about that, like I, I don't know. Okay. For me it's a way of letting go. Everything happens exactly the way it's supposed to. I'm powerless to outcomes, to people, places, and things. So it just helps me with my anxiety hugely and just letting people be who they are, letting things be what they are.

[00:37:03] At my home group, every third Saturday, we read from Opening Our Hearts, Transforming Our Losses, which I've read the entire book, and being an adult child of an alcoholic, this book is like cathartic, raw, and healing, like the entire book. The section we were reading was about relationships and how some relationships last a long time, a lifetime, and some relationships last not short, not long, maybe medium. And then some relationships just come and go.

[00:37:40] The part that I read just reminded me of, because I didn't grow up with a sense of belonging anywhere, how I just kept… Before I found Al-Anon, I kept going from group to group, people to people, trying to fit in, trying to people please. Because I hadn't figured out who I was, I didn't know what I needed or wanted, I just went to people who were not healthy for me, and I wanted to fit in, and I wanted to belong.

[00:38:10] And then, like, when I found someone that I could actually cling onto, when I found people who needed me,I thought love was being needed. I would cling onto those relationships with all my might. And I thought, “Oh, I have to make this relationship work. It's all up to me. I just need to work harder.

[00:38:32] And now, I know. I remember working, step one, and somewhere in the reading, in Paths to Recovery, I was having an issue, mostly internal issue, internal resentment toward my mother-in-law then. And I don't know, like, I was read- reading a paragraph in, step one, and it just dawned on me, I guess another one of those aha moments, “Oh my gosh, this relationship, I don't control this relationship. I only control my part. I only do what I can do, and the rest is up to God.” I thought, I could make this relationship go the way I wanted it to, and I was trying very hard, to make it that way and to suggest, the person, “Okay,” you know. And I realized, “Wow, this is all futile.” Okay. And then I realized, “Oh, okay, so relationships are what they are.”

[00:39:27] Another member told me everything and everyone in life has a season. Again, I don't get to determine. it could be the loveliest relationship that I've had, and it's up to my higher power and that person's higher power how long it lasts, and it's okay. It's okay if it's time for that to go. Another program friend has said, “There have to be endings, so there can be beginnings,” right?

[00:39:52] Spencer: Oh, I've heard that one. Yeah

[00:39:54] Julie: Yeah. Yeah. So if I'm holding onto something that just needs to go, I'm only causing probably myself and the other person misery. So it's again, just kinda like trusting in my higher power that the people in my life in this moment are the exact people I need in my life right now. And when that time changes, it might be different people, and that's okay because I'm gonna be okay no matter what.

[00:40:24] Spencer: Looking forward, obviously we're going to keep on talking about the traditions. We welcome your thoughts. You can join our conversation. The next one up would be Tradition Six, which says, “Our family groups ought never endorse, finance, or lend our name to any outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary spiritual aim. Although a separate entity, we should always cooperate with Alcoholics Anonymous.”

[00:40:51] That one's a bit of a mouthful. Think about how your group honors this tradition. How can you apply this tradition in your life, like outside of Al-Anon?What is an outside enterprise in your life that you don't wanna get entangled with, for example?

[00:41:08] You can leave us a voicemail or send us an email with your feedback or your questions. And Julie, how can people do that?

[00:41:16] Julie: You can send a voice memo or email to feedback@therecovery.show. Or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at seven three four seven zero seven eight seven nine five. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer.

[00:41:37] We'd love to hear from you. Share your experience, strength and hope or your questions about today's topic of Tradition Five or any of our upcoming topics, including more traditions. If you have a topic you'd like us to talk about, let us know.

[00:41:55] If you would like advance notice for some of our topics so that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback@therecovery.show. Put “email” in the subject line to make it easier to spot. Spencer, where can our listeners find out more about the Recovery Show?

[00:42:19] Spencer: that would be our website, which is therecovery.show, where we have all the information about the show, which is mostly the notes for each episode. The notes include a transcript, for episodes in the last several months. Also links to the books that we read from, videos for the music that we chose. And also you can find there links to some other recovery podcasts and websites.

Song 2

[00:42:45] Spencer: What is the second song here?

[00:42:48] Julie: It's Umbrella by Rihanna, featuring Jay-Z. First, I like Rihanna's voice a lot and the combination of her singing and Jay-Z rapping. I like the beat of this song a lot and, some of the lyrics, they just remind me a lot of the fellowship and the love and support I felt from them. So some of the lyrics go like this, Baby, 'cause in the dark, you can't see shiny cars. And that's when you need me there. With you, I always share. I've been around a few twenty-four hours, and I was in a lot of darkness in the beginning, and now I have more light in my life than darkness, but because I'm living a human life, I still experience darkness. But no matter what state I'm in, I can always go to a meeting, especially my home group.

[00:43:35] In the darkness, they help me see the shiny. They remind me there can be a crack where light comes through. yeah. Yeah, so it reminds me of the love that I have for my fellowship and the love that I feel from my fellowship.

[00:43:52]

Listener Feedback

[00:44:00] Spencer: Well, let's hear from you now. I got an email from Katie who writes,

[00:44:05] Hi, Spencer. I've listened to your podcast for several years and have to say this has been one thing I know I can turn to that will calm my racing mind and heart when I need it. I have not been able to get to in-person meetings due to childcare issues for a few years, but I'm excited to hopefully get back this month.

[00:44:23] I'm writing to ask if anyone else has been experiencing issues with the sound quality of voicemail shares lately. I know a while back you purchased new equipment, so I'm not sure if that is related, or not, but lately when I listen to people sharing or in some cases co-hosting, the sound quality seems to worsen as the podcast goes on.

[00:44:42] The S and F enunciations aren't clear, and it often sounds as though the person has a lisp. It's never on your end, though. Words aren't finished, and it's just not as clear as many of the earlier episodes. Anyway, I just wanted to share this in case you weren't aware and to see if there was anything that could be done about it.

[00:45:02] I find it hard to follow along with what is being said because I can't quite understand the clarity of the word, and I feel like I'm constantly a half second behind in listening, which affects how I can absorb the conversation. And it's strange. It's not on every episode, but certainly episodes four hundred and on I've noticed it.

[00:45:20] Either way, I will keep listening. Thank you for all you do.

[00:45:23] Katie in Montana.

[00:45:24] Yeah, Katie, I'm, I'm aware, and you're not the only person. It has to do with the software that I use to try to clean up background noise in the recordings. And, also I think, to some extent, with Zoom. I record most of my episodes on Zoom. The Zoom noise reduction sometimes seems to be where the ends of words are getting clipped. It's weird. I don't completely understand what's going on. With the voicemail, we have the added problem that the Google Voice recordings are not the best quality. So I try to clean that up and I'm probably turning the knob up a little too far on trying to clean it up, and I should back it off and accept some imperfection in the audio quality to improve the understandability. I will note that a very recent episode, my co-host was, unfortunately, in a very reverberant room, and I could not find a good balance between reducing the reverberation and keeping, legibility of the voice. I know that's not the right word for speech. . I wasn't happy with it. I'm not happy with it, and, I'm trying some different things as far as the way in which I use Zoom and possibly some other software for actually recording the episode, which might help. And maybe I just need to, to back off on turning up the dial on the noise reduction for those voicemail messages.

[00:47:07] Thank you for writing in. I do appreciate it. I am trying to do better and I will try to do better

[00:47:14] I got an email from Anita and Patrick who write,

[00:47:18] Hi Spencer. I'm grateful to introduce you and your listeners to a new RCA –RCA is Recovering Couples Anonymous– meeting in Jackson, Michigan, and explain how it came about.

[00:47:31] August 16th, 2025, I was listening to the Recovery Show in my car. What I heard caused me to pull over and record the title, ‘Recovering Couples Anonymous: Healing a Relationship,' episode 440. The guest speaker was Valerie. I contacted you as show host to obtain contact info for Valerie. I then reached out to her and left voicemail. Valerie called back. That led to a meeting of four, Valerie, her husband, plus my husband and I.

[00:48:00] Additionally, I found and listened to a second podcast about RCA on Reco12. Again, I reached out to the host and obtained contact information, then made contact with the guest speaker, John, and his wife, Anne.

[00:48:14] My husband, Patrick, and I found the website for recoveringcouples.org, that's recovering-couples.org, and started regularly attending Zoom meetings. In March twenty twenty-six, we attended a weekend-long RCA retreat in Texas. As we met with other couples in twelve-step programs, we started spreading the word about RCA. It was amazing that no one we knew, even long-timers, had heard of this couples recovery program.

[00:48:44] In May twenty twenty-six, we met up with two interested couples in Jackson. Within forty-eight hours, we'd all made the commitment to start an in-person meeting and secured our meeting location. This Jackson, Michigan RCA group is now listed on the recoveringcouples.org website for Sunday from seven fifteen to eight fifteen PM. I've shared a flyer with you in a separate email.

[00:49:08] While Patrick and I remain active in our primary programs, we are grateful for the experience, strength, and hope that our relationship has gained since participating in RCA. While we remain committed to our Zoom meetings and the new in-person Jackson meeting, we're also looking forward to attending the International Convention for Recovering Couples in Denver.

[00:49:29] RCA has taken our individual and our couples recovery to a whole new level. To us, it is no coincidence that it happened on these podcasts. The whole situation is simply another example of God doing for us what we could not do alone.

[00:49:43] Thanks to you and to Valerie for sharing RCA on the Recovery Show. You have our permission to share all or part of this email with your listeners. Grateful in recovery, Anita and Patrick.

[00:49:55] Thank you, Anita and Patrick, for sharing your experience, strength and hope from Recovering Couples Anonymous, and how that inspired you to start a meeting. That's wonderful. I will make the flyer available if you who are listening are interested in that flyer for this meeting in Jackson, Michigan. I can email it to you on request, or I guess you can find, information about the meeting on recoveringcouples.org, or maybe also information about meetings that might be closer to you. I'm gonna speak up for Anita here and say I'm sure she would be glad to correspond with you if you want some more information from her.

[00:50:34] And we got an email from Catherine who writes,

[00:50:36] Spencer, this is a message from long out of time, but I can't imagine I'm the only codependent in recovery who also found the Recovery Show over a decade after you began it, and who started listening from the beginning, completist as I am.

[00:50:50] When I got to episode forty-seven, I was devastated at the sudden departure of two of my friends from the podcast. It kind of felt like getting dumped, where you never see the person again, so you don't have an opportunity for closure together. But I've worked through the three As as you led us through in a prior podcast.

[00:51:08] I've come to be deeply grateful to you for sharing your evident pain, and processing aloud with us at the departure of your co-hosts. That's the most powerful kind of modeling of strength and hope. I was tempted to skip ahead to a later episode, since clearly you have continued the podcast. But I've taken my deep breaths and realized this grief is something for me to sit in, too.

[00:51:31] So I will walk through the past in order, but slowly catching up. Maybe I'll get to twenty twenty-six in a couple of years at my current rate. I feel honored to get to hear the vulnerable and real voices you and your guests bring to the podcast, and trust I will continue to find experience, strength, and hope shared there.

[00:51:48] Truly, thank you for all you do. Warmly, Catherine in Washington.”

[00:51:53] Thank you. Thank you, Catherine, for writing. I know you're not gonna hear this for a couple of years, but I would encourage you, although you start listening from the beginning, to also listen to the recent episodes. And all of you who just start listening from the beginning aren't gonna hear this, except maybe in, you know, four or five years when there's another couple hundred episodes.

[00:52:14] Thank you all for writing, and that's it for today.

Thank you, Julie

[00:52:18] Spencer: Julie, I wanna thank you for joining me today for this conversation. It was more in a conversation really, about tradition five. Thank you

[00:52:28] Julie: Thank you, Spencer. It's been lovely. Yeah

Song 3

[00:52:33] Spencer: I picked the third song, which is “Everyday People” by Sly & the Family Stone. You can kinda tell how old I am by the songs that I pick. You're laughing. True. It is true. I own it. Digression here. One of the people who was speaking in church today started out by saying that she was born in some year, and she's a very late Gen X. And then she went on to talk about something that was really important in her childhood that I had no knowledge of, but a lot of other people in the congregation did. And they all, like, lit up when she talked about it. So afterwards I, I went up and I said, “Hey, I'm a peak boomer, and I have no idea what you were talking about.”

[00:53:19] But anyway, yes, I'm a peak boomer. So “Everyday People,” just a few lyrics here. “Sometimes I'm right and I can be wrong. My own beliefs are in my song. The butcher, the banker, the drummer, and then makes no difference what group I'm in. I am everyday people. Yeah, yeah.” And to me, this just speaks to this idea that when you come to Al-Anon, your identity is that of being a friend or family member affected by somebody else's alcoholism. And in the context of Tradition Five, that is the only thing that matters about you and your membership in Al-Anon. And you could be a butcher, a banker, a drummer. It doesn't matter in terms of your membership.

[00:54:02]

Outro

[00:54:07] Spencer: Thank you for listening. Please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you are facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding, love, and peace grow in you one day at a time.