Intro

[00:00:01] Spencer: What is crosstalk? How does your meeting handle it? Welcome to episode 456 of the Recovery Show. This episode is brought to you by Michelle, Alexandra and Shannon. They used the donation button on our website. Thank you, Michelle, Alexandra, and Shannon for your generous contributions. This episode is for you.

[00:00:21] We are friends of family, members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction, understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:39] Mary: Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program. During the show, we will share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you'll find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:00:58] Spencer: My name is Spencer. I am your host today. Joining me today is Mary. Welcome back to the Recovery Show, Mary. We seem to be hitting on topics that are about Al-Anon.

[00:01:08] Mary: Yeah. good observation.

Crosstalk

[00:01:12] Spencer: Yeah. We start with this question, what is crosstalk? I found the Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families program, shorthand ACA, has I, I think a really well written statement, which is titled, sharing in ACA meetings, crosstalk and fixing. It starts out by saying, many people arrive at ACA nervous and not knowing how to share in meetings. I think that's true of Al-Anon also.

[00:01:45] Mary: Yeah.

[00:01:46] Spencer: The first section titled CROSSTALK in ACA. The term crosstalk means interrupting, referring to, commenting on, or using the content of what another person has said during the meeting. Crosstalk also refers to any type of dialogue that occurs when the meeting is in progress, members talking to one another or discussing what someone has just said is crosstalk. So there's a definition and then they go into more depth.

[00:02:13] I think what I'm going to do is link to this, if you want to go read the full statement. But they do talk about one of the reasons that ACA is pretty much down on crosstalk. Many adult children come from family backgrounds where feelings and perceptions were constantly judged. In ACA, each person may share their feelings and perceptions without fear of being judged negatively or interrupted, and without being praised in ways that can reinforce approval seeking patterns.

[00:02:42] Oof. In ACA, we speak about our own experiences and feelings. We accept without comment what others say because it is true for them. We focus on our own healing at meetings rather than giving advice or trying to fix others.

[00:02:57] In ACA we keep the focus on our lives and our feelings. We do not refer to the shares of others except as a transition into our own sharing. A very general, what's been brought up for me is, or the occasional thank you for sharing is fine.

[00:03:12] However, please do not make more detailed references to another person's share. I still struggle with that one because when somebody says something in a meeting that really inspires me or brings up something for me, my desire is to say, you know what Sherry said, just really hit me. That's crosstalk. Okay. By this definition.

[00:03:37] There's one other thing that I want to say, which is, I asked the question, does Al-Anon have a position on crosstalk? Because when I did a search, I got all this stuff from ACA.

[00:03:46] Mary: Right. Why aren't we finding anything from Al-Anon? And it's because.

[00:03:51] Spencer: In the 2007 World Service Conference, they had a conversation about a number of topics including crosstalk. And one person said, crosstalk is not an Al-Anon word. We don't need this outside term. We don't give advice or interrupt each other, but we do share what worked for us. So we have loving interchange in the meetings. If we don't have loving interchange, what is the purpose of going to meetings? We need to stop using the term crosstalk, stop focusing on it, and instead talk about what we do. Because what we do is lovingly support one another by sharing what worked for us.

[00:04:29] I just want to say this is one person's statement, and it is not Al-Anon official policy. This comes up, I think in a, at least a couple of the, shares that I got from listeners also. But I'll tell you what, every meeting I've been to that addresses this question of how do we have loving interchange, usually uses the word crosstalk and usually says we don't do it.

[00:04:53] Mary: Yeah. I've never actually been to a meeting where there is crosstalk.

[00:04:58] Spencer: Somewhere, and I think it might've been in this same 2007 conference summary, somebody made a connection between the term dominance, which is in the Al-Anon literature. It's one of the three obstacles to success in Al-Anon. Somebody made a connection between dominance and crosstalk. I think effectively implying that crosstalk is a form of dominance, which it certainly can be.

[00:05:21] Mary: Yeah, it can be. I did search the service manual for the word crosstalk, and yeah, it's not mentioned in the service manual at all.

[00:05:30] Spencer: You said you've never been to a meeting that, that permits it. I have, actually the first meeting that I went to, and that was my home group for at least a decade. Very strong recovery in that meeting. And at one point, I was talking to one of the long timers in the meeting and she said, we never have prohibited crosstalk. We just mostly don't have it. I think one of the listeners brings this up, that the example of not crosstalking in the meeting gets picked up. Also, that meeting says we share once during the meeting. It is harder to do the repetitive crosstalk thing if you're only sharing once.

[00:06:13] There was a meeting that I went to a few times when I was needing a lot of meetings that described itself as an old style meeting with crosstalk. It explicitly said, crosstalk in the meeting description. I will note that that meeting for whatever reason, no longer exists I think it just shrunk, but I have a friend in program that, that was his favorite meeting.

[00:06:37] Mary: Hmm.

[00:06:37] Spencer: I think pandemic killed them, probably. Pandemic killed so many meetings. Oh

[00:06:43] Mary: Yeah, that is true. Like I said, I've never gone to a meeting that says crosstalk is allowed. I think almost all of them actually that does have the no crosstalk statement in the meeting script explicitly. But, even in those meetings, I actually have experienced crosstalk. even though people share only once, there is a way of doing crosstalk in your own share.

[00:07:12] For example, I sometimes use A different pronoun than he or him, in reading the steps because my higher power is not a he him. Somebody in their share talked about how they did not like that. And to me that was crosstalk, in a way. So there are ways I think that people can still do it, even if there's no follow up commenting after people share.

[00:07:43] Spencer: Yeah. Absolutely. I have a personal experience and a meeting experience that I want to share. I was in a particular meeting that was actually highly recommended to me by a friend. She said, it's a great meeting. It was on a night where I didn't already have a meeting. and I was in this phase of let's go to as many meetings as possible. I went a few times and it was a pretty good meeting. But at one of them, I shared about. Oh, woe is me.

[00:08:12] My wife is drinking, blah, blah, blah.because that's where I was personally in my non recovery yet, you know?And this guy across the table from me says, what you need to do is, and I don't even know what he said after that, because that turned me off.

[00:08:31] Mary: Yeah.

[00:08:32] Spencer: And I think I did not ever go back to that meeting after that.

[00:08:36] Mary: Yeah.

[00:08:36] This is the harmful effect that can occur from crosstalk, direct response, giving advice. he was freaking giving me advice. Okay. I did not want advice. And it's interesting because . a lot of newcomers come wanting that, even. And a lot of them are very disappointed to find that we actually don't give advice. That's the guidance in our conference approved literature. I think as Al-Anon in general, we do find it hard to not inflict our advice on others.

[00:09:13] No kidding. No kidding. But you know, that has actually helped me a lot. Like this whole like, oh, like no crosstalk, the explicit, we do not give advice. And I find it like really difficult, especially the first several years in program. I found it like very difficult to not give advice.

[00:09:32] Spencer: I know that when I first came to Al-Anon, I didn't have any advice to give,

[00:09:39] Mary: Oh no, my, my life was a mess, but I still had lots of advice. to give.

[00:09:45] Spencer: I, yeah, somehow I got that message and I'm sure that there were times when Isaid things like, what I would do is? One of the things that I've learned is asking, would you like to hear my opinion on that? When I'm not in a meeting, when I'm in conversation, you know? Rather than just saying, what I think is.

[00:10:05] The other harmful crosstalk experience that I had in a meeting. We're in a meeting, another person is sharing, and then when that person is done, somebody else at the table says something about how, oh, I think you're so strong, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. After the meeting, the person who was spoken to said to me, wow, that really made me uncomfortable. And was thinking about not coming to the meeting again because did not want that to happen again.

[00:10:42] Mary: Yeah.

[00:10:43] Spencer: That meeting did not, at that point have a statement about crosstalk.

[00:10:46] I know that the motivation of the person who spoke was giving praise, right? But that's not how it felt to the person who received it. I think that's one of the dangers of even well-intentioned commenting, feedback, whatever you want to call it. I don't know how you're gonna take it.

[00:11:12] Mary: Yeah. One of the meetings I used to go to very regularly, we did a group inventory and one of the questions in the group inventory was about, I think, crosstalk related questions. , I remember some members sharing that. Even things like people thanking the lead speaker, they shared how, they would start comparing themselves. Like if I shared and I got, two thank yous, but somebody else shared and they got 10 thank yous. Then they would not feel good about their own share. I do think that there's a way that as part of this disease, we can just twist everything, like, you know, that saying compare and despair.

[00:12:02] Recently, actually, one of the meetings I go to, there was a member who expressed discomfort. This was not a part of the meeting script, we have rotation of service. So the secretary, the chair at the time, took it upon themselves to say you were heard, you were understood after every member share and, a member expressed that they felt uncomfortable with that. And they asked if that is considered crosstalk. And we're actually in the middle of discussing that right now.

[00:12:36] For me it's it's not part of the script, it's just something that the chair kind of ad-libbed. And, for me, like you said, it's like a, affirmative positive thing. So I was like, huh, that's interesting that some people don't feel comfortable about that. But actually, I get it. And if they don't want that to be said after their share, a simple thank you they said was okay. But, if it makes them uncomfortable, it makes them uncomfortable.

[00:13:06] The ACA statement that you read that said that even positive things can reinforce the approval seeking behavior that we learned in our alcoholic households. So that kinda, that kind of makes sense.yeah.

[00:13:26] Spencer: You brought up an experience where, somebody spoke up to help you remember something

[00:13:31] Mary: Oh yeah.

[00:13:32] Spencer: I've heard that happen in a couple meetings recently. Somebody was just, obviously searching for a word and somebody else gave it to them. As far as I could tell, that was received positively. What was your experience?

[00:13:48] Mary: I was a lead chair at a meeting and I was struggling to remember an acronym and. Somebody unmuted themselves, this was on Zoom and interrupted me and, shared the acronym and then immediately muted themselves. I was a little bit surprised because I have never been interrupted when I was the lead share except for, for the time check and stuff like that.

[00:14:14] So I was a little bit surprised, but I was not like, offended. I was like, oh, they're trying to be helpful. And I wasn't very familiar with this person, so I thought they were like newer to the rooms. So they maybe weren't as experienced in how typically Al-Anon meetings run in terms of we don't interrupt others.

[00:14:35] I just thanked them and went on. But what was interesting about this particular experience was that I was fine with it. I didn't say anything. But another person took it upon themselves to be like, that's not okay. You can't interrupt. And I felt a little weird. Like,I can defend myself if I need to. I don't need somebody else to, come in and say that somebody else's behavior was, not the norm in our meeting. I don't know. For me that's where it's kind of gets related to dominance is like when you're interrupting somebody totell 'em how it's supposed to be. To me, that doesn't feel right.

[00:15:19] and even in things like.I remember one of the very first meetings I went to, and I don't think I ever went back to this meeting. I didn't know about, like you say your name before you share. I didn't say my name, but I was sharing, and then somebody interrupted me to say what's your name?

[00:15:39] And I was like, oh, I'm Mary. But to me, that felt unwelcoming. You know, especially with newcomers, I try to give them a lot of leeway. Like they're, coming here for some serenity in their unmanageable life. They're trying to seek some ease and, there's a lot, there's a lot of cultural norms within Al-Anon that takes a little bit to pick up. So, you know, even if people don't do the quote, the right, whatever, I try to let them figure it out and not especially, do not interrupt them to correct them in the middle of a meeting in front of others.

[00:16:17] Spencer: Yeah. There's one thing that came to my mind while you were talking about that, that it's not really about crosstalk exactly, but in one of my meetings there is a member who comes occasionally and at the beginning of the meeting when they ask for announcements, he always speaks up and says, I have Tourette syndrome. That means that I will make random noises and I will repeat what is said occasionally. That helps me set up an expectation that this guy's gonna be,repeating the last few words of something, or he is gonna be making some sounds. And that he's not doing that to interrupt. It helps me to be more welcoming, I guess.

[00:17:07] Mary: That's an interesting situation. What if that person was saying something offensive?

[00:17:12] Yeah. At least he doesn't. and I know that one of the stereotypical behaviors from Tourette's is swearing, but his are just sort of random, it's just takes a little getting used to. Yeah, I'm glad that person spoke up about it. That's, you know, helpful.

[00:17:26] Spencer: I want to start into the listener shares here because we got so many, and somebody reminded me that there was a question about crosstalk back in episode number 2 94. It came up in the, the listener feedback segment at the end of the episode. It was not an episode about crosstalk, but this person wrote,

[00:17:47] I'm one of the core members of a new NAR Al-Anon family group, and recently we had a lot more crosstalk. At my most recent meeting, four people spoke in direct response to my share, which made me very uncomfortable. I felt betrayed by my group, like it's no longer a safe place to share. After some of their unwanted feedback began, I mentioned, wow, we're having a lot of crosstalk today. My group secretary said, with a hearty laugh, we all know each other and have been coming a long time. We are all okay with it. I was horrified with my secretary's response and now I don't know how to approach my home group with my concern.

[00:18:25] Future Spencer here. We both reacted to this email but not very audibly, so the recording did not catch our gasps. We were speechless at the secretary's response. However…

[00:18:36] During the pandemic, one of my meetings contracted to about six people on Zoom, with almost no newcomers or incomers. We got a little looser with each other during that time. 'cause yeah, we all knew each other. We're all familiar with each other. We kind of know what each other's okay with and not okay with. But I could see somebody new coming into that and saying, what the hell's going on here?

[00:19:02] Mary: Yeah.

[00:19:03] Spencer: Could you read Jan's question?

[00:19:05] Mary: Yes. Jan says, I would love some ESH experience, strength, and hope on how to politely curtail a consistent cross talker. It feels weird just calling them out, as kindly as we try. I think a private conversation after a meeting is best, but some say to identify it right when it happens. Ooh, what a great question.

[00:19:28] I'm in the private conversation camp. I think when something is done in front of others, it doesn't create a safe environment for that person. And even if they wanted to accept it, now their ego comes into play. Right. I think any kind of feedback, any kind of request even. Even with my kids, I find that they react differently if I correct them in front of the other sibling or in private. I think private is best.

[00:19:58] Spencer: yeah,

[00:20:00] Mary: that's just my opinion.

[00:20:01] Spencer: I wanted to put those two at the beginning because, especially when Jan's question came in, I had sent out an email to the email list, which if you want to be on the email list, send me a note feedback at the recovery dot show and put email in the subject line and I'll add you to the list.I sent out this question about, Hey, let's have a conversation about crosstalk and y'all send me some shares. And I got a couple.

[00:20:26] And then Jan's question came in and we were gonna be recording in a couple of days, so I sent out a second email, which I rarely do, but I was like, really? Come on. Everybody talks about crosstalk. Nobody wants to share about it. Okay. A little judgmental there. Sorry.So I sent out specifically that question and I got a flood of responses. And they weren't just addressing that question, although, you'll see as we go on there, that question was addressed in many of the responses. So I wanted to put that first because a bunch of people are addressing the question and clearly it struck a chord.

[00:21:04] Mary: Yes.

[00:21:05] Spencer: that was what got all the responses.

[00:21:08] Mary: I think it's a situation that many meetings have experienced,

[00:21:11] Spencer: Yes, for sure. The meeting that I talked about, we had a conversation through several months of business slash group conscience meetings to decide what we wanted to say about crosstalk in our opening. We ended up with a fairly long statement, which, over time, as nobody was crosstalking anymore, we've made shorter.

[00:21:37] Mary: Yeah, sounds right.

[00:21:40] Spencer: I want to read this email from Cima. Hi Spencer. This is a great example of a higher power moment. The morning you sent out the email looking for contributions to the topic of crosstalk. I was talking with my husband about the concept of crosstalk. I was telling him how I experienced it in reference to something I said at my weekday meeting last week, and how it made me uncomfortable to the point where I didn't want to attend that meeting this week. This is what happened. I had shared certain content at my weekend meeting a few days earlier, and received only positive responses. At this weekday meeting, someone commented on how they didn't like what I shared and that they really preferred something else. I reacted to their response with feelings of embarrassment, shame, failure, et cetera.

[00:22:25] Since working the program, even though I am less than a year in, I realized that I need to own those feelings and let them go. I can say more on what I am learning from my reaction, but I will stick with the topic of crosstalk. What I realized while I was talking with my husband was that all of the positive reactions and comments were also crosstalk.

[00:22:44] I clearly wasn't upset that there was crosstalk. I was upset that there was crosstalk where I felt criticized. I think it was also uncomfortable crosstalk because the criticism came from someone who has been supportive and kind, but who I also find a bit intimidating. I'm now thinking about the saying that I learned from the podcast, expectations are premeditated resentments. I expected only positive responses, and I resented the one person who did not meet those expectations. I didn't feel safe attending that meeting this week because my self-esteem is still fragile. Yes, the program is helping me work on that.

[00:23:20] After sharing all of that here, as a newcomer, I still recognize that I'm not clear about what constitutes crosstalk and what doesn't. If in my shared a meeting, I thank someone for their share and relate something specifically to what they said is that crosstalk. For example, if someone talks about an experience in childhood that I relate to, and then I say, thank you so and so for sharing that, I had a similar experience when I was a child, is that crosstalk? Those kinds of comments come up in meetings and they're not putting value judgements on the person's share. So I don't think that is crosstalk, but I could be wrong. I suspect crosstalk may be related to stating judgments or offering advice or feedback about someone's share.

[00:23:59] I look forward to learning from you and others when you get to this episode. This is a great and timely topic. In community, Cima.

[00:24:07] What that brought up for me is this thing of, if somebody shares something that I really connect with, how directly can I refer to what they said, in a way that is not seen as crosstalk? And since I don't know how somebody else is gonna perceive what I say, that's a tricky question, isn't it?

[00:24:27] A friend of mine says, something I heard earlier, said to me, dot, dot, dot. And then goes on to relate his own experience. That's his way of referring without referring, right? I don't know. What do you think?

[00:24:40] Mary: Yeah, I think it's tricky. When I share, I don't think I, I refer back to anybody else's shares. I might say something very generic oh, I'm resonating with a lot of people's shares today or something like that. I'm a little bit more liberal when it comes to the speaker though. If there's a speaker and there's something a little bit more specific about, their experience that I resonate with or can relate to, then I might say something like, oh, I could relate so much to the speaker's share about blah, blah, blah.

[00:25:12] But I never name somebody in my share. Like, I never say, oh, when Spencer said this, that really, I never do that. Because I think if somebody else did it to me, I would feel a little bit uncomfortable. Like, oh, they're naming me. But if I make a generic statement like, oh, I'm resonating with a lot of shares today, then I think that's vague enough that nobody knows who I'm talking about or what exactly I'm talking about. So I do that a lot.

[00:25:41] If I do want to thank somebody for their share. I could always do that afterwards. I could, during the parking lot, I could send them a message saying oh, thank you so much for your share today. I resonated with it a lot. Or even if there's something that I want to talk to them about, I can ask Hey, I really want to talk to you about blah, blah, blah. Is it okay if I text call you later? Or something like that?

[00:26:05] Yeah, I stay away from doing that, but I have seen it done a lot. Not the naming part, but a lot of people saying. and they usually preface it by saying, I don't know if this is crosstalk, but

[00:26:22] Spencer: That's one of those, if you have to name it, it probably is,

[00:26:27] Mary: yeah.

[00:26:27] Spencer: So, speaker meetings, or lead meetings. I think the person doing the lead is in some ways, in a different position than everybody else in the meeting.

[00:26:38] Mary: Yeah.

[00:26:39] Spencer: They've been, you know, kind of called out. And presumably in a lead meeting, we are responding to or sharing our own experience on the topic that the person led on.

[00:26:53] Mary: Right.

[00:26:54] Spencer: I have one meeting that I go to regularly, it is a lead meeting. And I go to a couple of meetings that are effectively book study meetings. We read from one of the literature and then, share our experience, strength, and hope on whatever we read. In the lead meeting, it's much more common for somebody to say at minimum, thank you for that lead.I remember being in that meeting and the person who was doing the lead started out by saying something like, I'm a big fan of step three. And I opened my lead with, I'm not a big fan of step three.and afterwards the person who did the lead came up to me and said, thank you for your share. I really appreciated it.

[00:27:42] There's a speaker meeting in our area, actually an AA meeting that has a speaker on Thursdays and once a month they have invited Al-Anon to have an Al-Anon speaker, which is great. But, and this is this meeting's culture, they invite you to speak for about 45 minutes. And then they open up the floor for people who are at the meeting to comment or ask questions. That was a little strange to me, you know? But when I was asked to speak at that meeting, I knew what I was getting into. And if I didn't want to do that, I could have declined speaking.

[00:28:25] Mary: Yeah.

[00:28:25] Spencer: so I think in the case of that kind of a structure, setting up that expectation can be really important, so that you don't end up being blindsided by this, wait a minute, they're asking me questions.And since it's mostly AAs in the meeting, I actually did get some questions, because they're not necessarily familiar with the Al-Anon program.

[00:28:46] Got a voice memo from Barb B.

[00:28:50] Barb B: Hi Spencer, this is Barbara in Connecticut. Thanks so much for the opportunity to talk about Crosstalk. I belong to the adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families Fellowship, and in our meetings we read a little blurb before each meeting about crosstalk, and I'll share it with you now.

[00:29:11] It begins, we ask that there be no crosstalk during the meeting. Crosstalk refers to interrupting, criticizing advice, giving direct questions of another member or the group. You and we rather than I statements and speaking to another person while the meeting is in progress. This includes back and forth dialogue between two or more people.

[00:29:30] We refrain from crosstalk for two reasons. One, when we were growing up, no one listened to us. They told us that our feelings were wrong. We allow each person to express his or her feelings without interruption or comment. And two, as adults, we are accustomed to taking care of other people and not taking responsibility for our own lives. Practicing listening gives us time to reflect more fully.

[00:29:53] I think it's really helpful. I'm glad that we do read this before each meeting. For me, it creates a safe space where I feel free to share. And I like that. We address this directly because, I feel that when folks want to comment on someone else's share or refer to it directly, even if they don't intend it to be a criticism of someone else's share, it could come across that way, or the other person could take it in that way. So thanks so much. This is a great topic and have a good day.

[00:30:27] Spencer: Thank you, Barb, for that share. I don't think it brings up anything new for me, but thank you for expressing that.

[00:30:35] Mary: Yes. Thank you.

[00:30:36] Spencer: We have an email from Anne, can you read that?

[00:30:40] Mary: Sure. Anne says, hello Spencer. Recalling from a time in which I was most active and involved in meetings, the issue of crosstalk was addressed at the end of the meeting, before the closing, and by the chairperson or another member raising their hand to be acknowledged, who knew best how to express the issue. Other meetings handled it during a group conscience by figuring out a wording that could be added to the opening remarks made by the chairperson. Hope this helps a bit. Anne H.

[00:31:11] Spencer: I think from having read this a couple of times, what she's saying is that when there was crosstalk in the meeting,

[00:31:19] Mary: Oh,

[00:31:20] Spencer: at the end of the meeting, the chairperson or another member would read the crosstalk statement.

[00:31:26] Mary: I see.

[00:31:27] Can I share the cross talk statement that is read at many of the meetings that I go to?

[00:31:33] Spencer: Absolutely.

[00:31:34] Mary: It's really short. I think the ACA one is good, but it's, it is quite long. In the meetings that I go to, we say, a gentle reminder that in this meeting we refrain from crosstalk. By this we mean giving advice, making value judgements, or asking direct questions concerning someone's share. Please feel free to have individual discussions after the meeting. It's nice and short. And we read it at the beginning before shares.

[00:32:02] Spencer: That's gentle, it's short, but it's clear

[00:32:06] Mary: Yeah. And it gives you, if you want to, you can do it later.

[00:32:10] Spencer: Right. That's something we say to newcomers, you probably have questions and after the meeting is a great time to ask your questions and have a conversation with somebody,

[00:32:21] Ruth writes. Hi, Spencer. This is Ruth from NC. I assume North Carolina. Commenting on your request for addressing crosstalk in a meeting. This is a delicate topic with the goal of protecting the safety and structure of the meeting without embarrassing anyone. Finding the right balance, keeping it gentle, neutral, and focused on group guidelines rather than the individual is key.

[00:32:42] I have personally chosen to attend meetings where crosstalk is discouraged. In those meetings, groups have established protocols that were discussed and decided through a group conscience or business meeting. Typically, it is the chairperson's responsibility to address crosstalk as having another member interject can sometimes be perceived as crosstalk. Whatever protocol is established it, it's important to communicate it clearly, whether by updating the script or including it as part of the chairperson's responsibilities. She has a slightly different crosstalk statement in the opening. This group discourages any kind of crosstalk, which is directly commenting on another person's share. We do this to maintain a safe, loving, and welcoming environment for all who attend. Should crosstalk occur, the chairperson may gently interject to bring us back to sharing our own experience.

[00:33:34] If crosstalk does occur, some helpful phrases might be, let's remember to keep the focus on our own shares and avoid responding directly to others. Or, I'm going to gently pause here. Let's bring it back to sharing our own experience. Or, just a reminder, we try to avoid crosstalk so everyone feels safe to share. Usually that's enough. If something slightly more direct is needed, I hear that you want to support them, and we appreciate that. In this space, we do that by sharing our own experience rather than responding directly. You're always welcome to connect with them after the meeting. Or let's keep the space safe by not giving advice or feedback during shares

[00:34:14] If needed, after the meeting and using our slogan, think, is it thoughtful, honest, intelligent, necessary, and kind? The chair might have a private conversation, Hey, I'm really glad you're engaged. It means a lot. I just wanted to mention that in meetings we try to avoid crosstalk so everyone can feel comfortable sharing without feedback.

[00:34:33] If you're a participant not chairing, it's usually best not to correct someone publicly. You can model the behavior by sticking to your own experience. Speak with the chair afterwards if it's recurring. Or if you feel comfortable and it's appropriate, have a kind one-on-one conversation after the meeting. The tone matters more than the exact words, calm, matter of fact, and non-judgmental.

[00:34:56] We're protecting the safety of the meeting and building awareness, not calling anyone out.

[00:35:00] Thanks for the topic and the opportunity to contribute.

[00:35:03] In wellness and with gratitude. Ruth.

[00:35:06] Wow, Ruth, lots of ideas in there.

[00:35:08] Mary: Yeah, a lot of helpful statements.

[00:35:11] Ruth's comment just reminded me, the purpose of this is to create a safe environment. For me having no crosstalk, is important because it creates that safety, knowing that I'm not gonna be criticized or judged in a direct way, or be given advice. I think that creates environment where I can feel free to share without fear of judgment. Thanks.

[00:35:37] Spencer: I really like that Ruth emphasizes that we're not calling anyone out. It's best not to correct someone publicly. There have been maybe two times when I have spoken up in a meeting from somebody who was flagrantly ignoring our, policies, I guess is the word. In one case it was a person who, and it took a couple meetings before I said anything, who would share multiple times during the meeting when we specifically ask you to share once. Finally, after he'd done it several times, I said, excuse me, in this meeting we share once, and he might not have come back. So I don't know if that was the best thing to do or not, I did it. You know,personal progress for the greatest number, right?

[00:36:30] Oof. It's always tough.

[00:36:32] Mary: Yeah,

[00:36:33] Spencer: MJ shared, you want to read that?

[00:36:36] Mary: sure. Hi, Spencer. This is a great question. I'm curious to hear what others have to say. Most of the Al-Anon meetings I attend do not enforce the non crosstalk rule. Instead, the cross talker generally seems to stop crosstalking once they see that it's not the norm. I don't know what would happen if someone continued to crosstalk again and again.

[00:36:58] There is one ACA meeting I occasionally attend, and it's included in the meeting intro script. If someone crosstalks, a gentle reminder of the policy will be given by the chair of the meeting after the share. I like this approach. My mom actually attended a meeting with me and she crosstalked during the share. I was mortified. I was tempted to say something to her and was grateful that the speaker made this general reminder after she spoke, so I didn't have to. By setting the expectation in the intro script and with the scripted reminder that intervention felt gentle. Hope that helps. MJ.

[00:37:34] Spencer: Awesome. I was talking about the meeting that I started going to originally and how there was very little crosstalk in the meeting, even though there was no mention of it in the opening. A long timer said, we actually have not made a policy about crosstalk in this meeting. And I think that speaks to the example of other people.If you listen, you see how people are doing it, and then you start doing it yourself. At least I did. I

[00:37:59] Mary: Yeah. We're social animals. We'll observe and pick up the social norms.

[00:38:05] Spencer: Now, 20 something years later. They do have a very short statement about crosstalk,

[00:38:13] Mary: I felt like the timing is interesting here because this is a lead meeting. So we go through the normal, introduction of the meeting, serenity prayer, read the steps, et cetera, all that stuff that, that you do every week because it keeps the meeting going.

[00:38:30] Spencer: Then the lead speaker does their lead and then the chair comes back and says, the meeting is now open for sharing. please keep your shares brief because there's a lot of people here, and that's where the crosstalk statement happens. And I'm like, this is actually good social engineering, that we give these reminders about how we share in this meeting right before people start sharing. Rather than somewhere in that whole block of stuff that maybe somebody tunes out because they hear the same thing every week.

[00:39:08] We got a voice memo from my friend Patrick.

[00:39:11] Patrick: Hey Spencer, this is Patrick from Atlanta. The main purpose of a no crosstalk statement in the opening readings is mainly for group safety. We need to be reminded that crosstalk is detrimental to the group. It sets up guardrails so that members feel safe to share things that would've been criticized in their formula.

[00:39:30] Family of origin. We all have a disease that whispers to us. We know what that person should do. Our disease wants us to tell that person, here's the solution to your problem. But we know that unsolicited advice feels like criticism to the person receiving it. No crosstalk reminds us that that behavior is not acceptable in our group.

[00:39:53] It's like a guardrail for the group. As we recover from our disease, we learn that we don't know the answer to everyone's problems. As we recover, we find that others are perfectly capable to seek their sponsors and their higher powers help in finding their own solutions to their own problems. So we maintain the safety of the group by not referring to another person's share or directly speaking to another person.

[00:40:22] That way people feel free to share without someone fear. Fear that someone will respond to it. I've heard it said, take your message to the meeting and your mess to your sponsor. Thank you. I'm Patrick.

[00:40:39] Spencer: Lots of wisdom in there. And a guardrail for the group. We don't know the answer to everyone's problems. Wait, yes, I do. Wait, no. Oh.thank you, Patrick.

[00:40:53] Mary: Thanks, Patrick. Should I read the anonymous?

[00:40:58] Spencer: Yes.

[00:40:59] Mary: At my home group, my sponsor would share after the person crosstalking and say something like, what I love about this group is that we don't crosstalk. That's when blah, blah, blah. It helps me feel safe. We have the reminder in our opening too. If it persists, making another reminder group wide can be discussed at a business meeting. Thank you for asking for input. This show is a beautiful resource for recovery.

[00:41:27] Spencer: And thank you. Anonymous.

[00:41:29] Mary: There's another anonymous. Should we read that one?

[00:41:32] Spencer: Yeah, go ahead.

[00:41:33] Mary: Okay. I brought up crosstalk in a business meeting once, as it felt as though some people felt it was okay to give others direct feedback to what they said. The member of that group had never raised the question of crosstalk in their meeting, and some who had never attended any other meetings, had never even considered it before at all.

[00:41:56] It caused a bit of controversy, including what I might call a strong reaction from longtime members. From what I was hearing, they felt that it was a form of loving interchange as the phrase goes in some of our meeting openings. I recognized in the moment that some of the reaction may have come from fear that someone relatively new to the group was coming in to try to change how things were done, or worse, trying to control the dynamics of the group.

[00:42:24] I had to let go of the fact that this reaction happened, even though I had done my very best to convey that my goal was only to discuss, not to make a motion or a proposal. I thought I'd been so clear about it, but some people didn't hear me saying that, as they kept asking, so what are you proposing? As the discussion continued.

[00:42:44] I had to pray to hand everyone lovingly over to the group's higher power throughout the meeting, what was most interesting to me was that the dual members of AA and Al-Anon present were the ones who saw this as a perfectly reasonable discussion point. I'm not sure, but I guess they were familiar with group decisions about avoiding crosstalk from AA.

[00:43:05] It seemed that they were as surprised as me about how much of a reaction it got. I was grateful for those members being present to speak up as it meant I didn't feel quite as far out in raising the discussion. Most interestingly, in the time that's passed, since I brought this up as a discussion, the crosstalk that I was finding bothersome has reduced significantly. Coincidence? I'm not sure. Perhaps it was enough just to plant the seed. And I'm grateful that I've learned in Al-Anon that I can have a voice and let go of the outcome. All in all, I'm grateful that in Al-Anon I can practice being in disagreement in a healthy way. Say what I mean, mean what I say and don't say it mean.

[00:43:48] Ah, what a fascinating story.

[00:43:51] Spencer: I'm reminded, I started going to a new meeting, after I'd been in Al-Anon for a couple of years, and some of the dynamics in that meeting didn't feel healthy to me. But I didn't say anything about it 'cause I was new to the meeting and there were some people who'd been there for years. I just modeled the behavior that I would like to see in other people, and I think that actually had an effect. That's kind of what I see happening in this share.

[00:44:22] Mary: Yeah, I have experienced this as well. You bring things up in a business meeting, you don't make a motion, but the discussion itself is enough to address whatever it was that was going on. And, it's like helping people become aware, you know, people don't have bad intentions. Just talking about it, giving people space to talk about it, sometimes fixes a problem.

[00:44:45]

[00:44:46] Spencer: Patrice writes, good morning, Spencer. I do not come to Al-Anon for any kind of evaluation, either affirmative or negative. Nor do I come to affirm or negate anything anyone has shared. That is the beauty of sharing in a meeting. I know no one is going to come in on my share and affirm or negate me. It is freeing and can build trust. I come to listen without judgment and to be heard. It's fine if someone wants to approach me outside of a meeting and discuss something I mentioned during a meeting that was helpful, they didn't understand, or are curious about. I have found that meetings that have a lot of comments on specific shares during the meeting are not the healthiest meetings, meaning they stray from placing principles above personalities to shape the behavior of the group. So it becomes something other than Al-Anon, parentheses, IE, a therapeutic process group.

[00:45:37] I have seen harm come from this, when someone comments with a negative take on a share. We must bear in mind that if we allow comments on shares in meetings, people will be free to comment with both positive and negative views.

[00:45:50] We have to separate the issue of commenting on other shares from straying from the Al-Anon principles. These shares can be gently corrected during the meeting by repeating part of our opening statement. Please refrain from the discussion of religion, treatment centers, self-help groups, counseling, and the use or mention of materials other than our Al-Anon conference approved literature. That was all in parentheses. Addressed to the whole group, not to an individual.

[00:46:14] Patrice. Well stated and strongly stated.

[00:46:19] Mary: Robin writes, hi Spencer. Regarding the topic of crosstalk. I believe the definition of crosstalk is subjective to each person, which is then taken to their groups. The group can then come to a conscious decision as to their collective definition.

[00:46:37] ACA, adult Children of Alcoholics has a small booklet on crosstalk. They define it as interrupting, referring to commenting on, or using the context of what another person has said during the meeting. Crosstalk also refers to any dialogue that occurs when the meeting is in progress. Members talking to one another or discussing what someone has just said is crosstalk.

[00:46:59] That's the quote from the booklet. They even consider smiling, nodding, or handing a crying person tissues as a form of crosstalk. Personally, I agree with the suggestion of not interrupting or having side conversations. This detracts from the need of each person to be heard. It also causes the meeting to become distracted, and the meeting may lose its primary focus of a selected topic.

[00:47:24] I experienced this firsthand at the AA International Convention during an Al-Anon meeting, a question on sponsorship arose. An entire conversation began between the questioner and the respondent. The moderator had to suggest they make it a quote, meeting after the meeting and bring the focus back to a meeting topic.

[00:47:45] I do believe some grace needs to be shown, to either a newcomer to the program or a visitor to a meeting. Neither have any idea what a particular group's culture is like and the newcomer to a meeting is just needing some place to be validated and vent in a place where someone may understand what they are experiencing with their addict.

[00:48:05] An important thing to remember is that we were all new at one time or another. We need to provide loving kindness and guidance on how the program operates. The best thing to say is quote, while we understand people are confused and hurting, conversations are best left for after the meeting. This is a small form of loving detachment. We are being loving and detaching from resentments that may arise, that crosstalk is happening.

[00:48:33] So appreciate being able to share. Thank you for your wonderful program. It has helped me tremendously. In service. Robin W.

[00:48:40] Spencer: Thank you Robin. and, thank you for that particular experience at the AA international convention. She says they even consider smiling, nodding, or handing a crying person tissues as a form of crosstalk. I have heard that opinion expressed by some people in Al-Anon. That's really hard for me not to do. I'll just say. I have also heard the opinion expressed that handing a crying person the box of tissues is a form of enabling.

[00:49:08] Mary: What? I've never heard that. That's

[00:49:12] Wow. Ah, interesting. I loved it when my in-person meeting gave people tissues. I loved it when I got tissues . Yeah.

[00:49:22] Spencer: Sherryn writes, kia ora, hello Spencer, and mihi, greetings again from Aotearoa, if I'm pronouncing that anywhere close to correctly, new Zealand.I've heard from Sherryn before and she actually had to give me pronunciations for some of the things she wrote. I wrote back and said, how do you actually pronounce this? Anyway, Sharon writes, I think having crosstalk as a subject of meeting would be useful. It would give an opportunity to read some CAL about the issue and let people talk about their experience of it. Sorry, CAL, conference approved literature and why is it important Mauri ora be well, Sherryn.

[00:50:01] I think I might have heard that from somebody else who shared, maybe it's still coming up, that hey, how about talking about this in a meeting, with the proviso that we don't actually have any CAL about crosstalk, yeah. Interesting. So that would be good.

[00:50:17] Mary: I'm gonna look up the index of the latest reader to see if it is a word, even. Probably not, but

[00:50:24] Nope. No. Crosstalk.

[00:50:26] Spencer: And there's nothing about it in

[00:50:29] Mary: the service manual. Yeah.

[00:50:31] Spencer: Which is actually the piece of CAL that I would most likely expect it to be in.

[00:50:37] Mary: I have the Many Voices, One Journey book, which is like the history of Al-Anon. I wonder if it has it in there. Let me see. Nope, no crosstalk in there either.

[00:50:47] Spencer: Yeah.

[00:50:48] Ester, sent a voice memo.

[00:50:51] Ester: Hi Spencer. I'm just leaving a message about the question of crosstalk. My earliest Al-Anon meetings had explicit policies against Crosstalk and they were, um, defined during the chairperson script, and I personally found that very helpful. Um, I also feel that part of the work of my recovery has been to let go of.

[00:51:16] How other people exist around me because that's none of my business, and that includes in Al-Anon meetings themselves. So if I can get recovery in a meeting where some crosstalk happens because there is no overt meeting agreement about it, that's okay with me. The only condition I would put on that, based on my experience on some meetings is where it gets a little bit derailed because of the fact that people are responding directly to other people's shares.

[00:51:54] And I have actually spoken up about that before in a meeting where there was no overt policy about crosstalk. And it was received in a mixed way. But the overarching message from my perspective was. If we're here to do Al-Anon recovery, the best way to do that for me is to focus on myself and not on the sharing of somebody else.

[00:52:20] My personal practice is not to name another member who has shared during the meeting unless they're the topic lead, and that's the convention of that meeting to refer to the topic lead. And I also try not to refer to specific things that people have shared because. That's something that can take place in the after meeting, and it's really not my business to give any kind of feedback or response to specific things that people have shared about themselves.

[00:52:50] For me personally, Al-Anon is partly a unique and safe environment to share really personal things in because I have a kind of confidence that I'm not gonna get advice that I didn't ask for. So. In cases where people do do that, I sometimes find it appropriate to say something. Thank you so much and I'm looking forward to listening to the episode on this.

[00:53:17] Also, just a follow up, the World Service Conference doesn't have an official stand on crosstalk, and there's been discussions about it during the years.

[00:53:30] I remember a very diligent member who had an area service position who kept telling the group that I was in with them, that there is no official policy on crosstalk. And actually crosstalk isn't an official Al-Anon term in any of our conference approved literature. But because it's been a constant topic that's been raised over the years, there have been conferences where they have dealt with it as a topic. I actually got recommended this great little pamphlet from, I think it's South Africa Al-Anon, and it's called Crosstalk and Loving Interchange. And it discusses the different positions and various discussions that have been going on in Al-Anon about crosstalk and about how we deal with it, in a healthy way without, quote, becoming rigid or controlling. I really love reading that sometimes to refresh myself and whenever there's a topic like this that comes up, say in a business meeting of another group. It's helpful for me to consult with this pamphlet so that I can speak about it with a little bit more clarity. Because, I have my own opinions and my own preferences, but that doesn't necessarily mean we're talking about the common welfare.

[00:54:37] I really thank you for presenting an opportunity to talk about this 'cause it is actually a topic that's quite dear to me and I'm excited to hear what other people say about it. And thank you for your service, Spencer.

[00:54:49] Spencer: Thank you Ester for that great share and for that point or two.

[00:54:53] This, crosstalk and loving interchange. I pulled it up.It's a three page PDF and it has some references to other CAL. There's, So Speaking of Crosstalk from Inside Al-Anon, August, September, 1989, and I'm wondering if Inside Al-Anon maybe is the predecessor to the Forum.

[00:55:17] It seems like it's a magazine format, volume 12, number five. And then the forum, 2004 Al-Anon BC before crosstalk.And Cross Talk or Loving interchange in the Forum September, 2007 and responses in the Forum December, 2007. So I'll try to make links to all those things where I can.

[00:55:41] A place that I didn't look is the Al-Anon blog.

[00:55:44] Mary: Ah,

[00:55:45] Spencer: It might be something in there also.

[00:55:47] Mary: Oh I guess South Africa Al-Anon has a pamphlet called Crosstalk and Loving Interchange, which I actually did see in my Google search about this. But I didn't read the actual pamphlet, but sounds like a good one.

[00:56:00] Spencer: Thank you Esther, for pointing us back to that, because I will put a link to, as much of this as I can in the show notes at the recovery dot show slash 4 56.

[00:56:12] Mary: Gretchen says, hi, Spencer. First of all, let me say I love your podcast. I started listening to you pre pandemic, and a lot of your episodes got me through when there were no meetings in person. And some of my favorites are the ones with Eric. I enjoy your dynamic.

[00:56:29] In reference to crosstalk, I think that growing up in an alcoholic home made it so I couldn't speak my peace without my parents yelling back at me or even my brother. So I think it's really important for crosstalk not to be during the meeting only because we can feel heard and seen and not interrupted and safe in the meetings. When I was younger, it was really hard to feel like my parents or other adults were listening to me, without that talking over me type of conversation.

[00:56:59] Currently, a meeting I attend has some crosstalk at times. It also appears that it is the same person doing the crosstalk. This meeting seems pretty lax with enforcing that. I do try not to let it bother me, but sometimes I wonder if it prevents newcomers from coming back to this meeting. A suggestion I would have for the person with a question of what to do about the crosstalk in that meeting. Is it possible to take a group conscience or perhaps have a private conversation with the group representative? Gentle conversations are always best. Gretchen.

[00:57:33] Thanks, Gretchen.I could relate to her share because, yeah, there was lots of interruptions and lots of crosstalk in my home. And also in general, there's a lot of crosstalk in everyday conversations. My beloved alcoholic has a habit of making a lot of things about him. And yeah, I don't know if it's like a lot of alcoholics, but a yes, this is a pattern I've observed many times over the years. And I used to not even notice it. I used to just be fine with it. But as I've gotten older, as I've gotten a lot more recovery, I am starting to notice more and more, when he makes something about him. And I have to be like, Hey, this is actually not about you. I was bringing up something that was going on with me.

[00:58:26] Or maybe it's something about our child or something. But yeah, I prefer conversations where's, where there's not too much crosstalk and especially interrupting, when somebody's not done with their story or their thought or whatever is, it is disruptive. Especially for people who are more introverted, who may have a hard time just speaking up in general when you interrupt them, it's kind of saying Hey, what you're saying is not important. What I have to say is more important than what you're saying. So I, try to create like space between conversations. Meaning? before I talk, after somebody else talks, let there be some space, some breathing room so that we all have a chance to get out everything that we want to say.

[00:59:11] Spencer: Thank you Gretchen.

[00:59:12] Mary: Thanks, Gretchen.

[00:59:13] Spencer: I have one little nit here, where she says, have a private conversation with the group representative.I think I understand where that's coming from because the group representative is usually gonna be somebody who's fairly experienced in program. and maybe has some familiarity with things like the service manual even.

[00:59:30] I just, having been a group representative, I know that's not part of the official description of the job.

[00:59:37] Mary: Yeah.

[00:59:38] Spencer: That's my only nit, but having a private conversation with what I might call a longtimer in the meeting, could be a great idea.

[00:59:47] Mary: I think if you have a question about the norms of the group or has the group talked about this before, I think that's fine. But to ask somebody else to try to give that feedback to the person who's doing the crosstalk, I don't think that's the best way to go about it. If I have a problem with somebody, I should be the one to address it, not triangulate and bring somebody else into it.

[01:00:12] Spencer: you're right.

[01:00:14] Mary: My opinion.

[01:00:15] Take what you like, leave the rest.

[01:00:17] Spencer: Got an email from somebody who says to label them as an ACA and Al-Anon fellow traveler. Meetings I am in that prohibit or define crosstalk often adopt a crosstalk statement that is read at the beginning of the meeting or just before sharing. Many of them also state that members may request the crosstalk statement be reread at any time during the meeting. This allows a member to bring crosstalk to the group's attention without directly calling anyone specific out because the person requesting the statement be reread is addressing the meeting chair or secretary without reference to others' shares.

[01:00:54] Mary: Okay. Sima says, hi Spencer. I wonder if this idea could work for that person. I thought about using crosstalk as a topic to discuss during my home group meeting, since I ran into some challenges with crosstalking in another meeting and genuinely wanted to hear from the group. At the start of our meeting, the chair usually asks if anyone has anything specific they want to talk about, and if they don't, the chair would proceed with the topic they planned.

[01:01:22] I also wonder if that person could volunteer to chair a meeting, and if they have an open topic meeting, maybe they could use crosstalk as the topic. Maybe it's something that the group can discuss during the business meeting. Yeah, suggesting it as a topic for future meeting, to address it and allow space for people to talk about it. That's a great idea.

[01:01:42] Spencer: I just want to jump back to the South Africa document that actually points to some,conference approved literature that discusses crosstalk, that could be used as a prompt for such a meeting,

[01:01:53] Mary: Yeah.

[01:01:54] Spencer: And we have Allison. For me, first crosstalk is not an Al-Anon term. There was an article in the forum about it. It is loving interchange. I try to address it after the meeting, especially with a newcomer as they are not familiar with meeting formats. I explained that to provide safety in the meeting, we don't interrupt or address anyone's shares directly during the meeting. They could speak with the member after the meeting to ask for further sharing. When it happened to me during a share, I stopped sharing. I asked not to be interrupted. And as I no longer felt safe, I was done sharing. Hugs. Allison.

[01:02:29] Thank you for sharing your experience, strength and hope, allison.And thank you to everybody who shared. Amazing response. We will take a little break and then continue with our lives in recovery, where we talk about how recovery works in our daily lives and in our meetings.

Song 1

[01:02:47] Spencer: I was inspired to a song here from two experiences today.One, hearing a podcast about this song as I was driving around this morning.

[01:03:00] Mary: Oh.

[01:03:01] Spencer: And secondly, from a couple of things that people wrote about not feeling heard as a child in an alcoholic home.

[01:03:11] the song is Father and Son by Cat Stevens. It's in two voices, the father, who's telling his son to, stay home, and the son who wants to go out into the world. This is the son's voice. Oh, how can I try to explain? 'cause when I do, he turns away again. It's always been the same old story from the moment I could talk, I was ordered to listen. Now there's a way. And I know that I have to go away. I know I have to go.

[01:03:40] It just captures for me the feeling that I can have when somebody says something about what I shared, and they're not seeing what I saw and what I shared. Okay. And I feel like maybe I wasn't heard. So that just came to me today. Poof.

[01:03:59] Mary: Yeah, that's a great song for this episode.

[01:04:02]

Our Lives in Recovery

[01:04:10] Spencer: In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery. How have we experienced recovery recently?

[01:04:16] I'm still experiencing something. When we first got together, I said, I'm feeling a little out of sorts from something that happened yesterday. Because what happened was my wife was in a serious automobile accident.

[01:04:28] Mary: Oh.

[01:04:28] Spencer: that was unfortunately her fault. Both drivers are okay, which really speaks to the safety features in modern automobiles. but it was really freaky. It's just one of these things that puts a stop in the day. Like, whatever seemed important is not important anymore. Now we're facing the question of how do we replace the car?

[01:04:55] We need to find a car.I'm gonna be traveling, so we have a very short window to try to find a new car. I'm taking the other car with me. How do we get around? How do we negotiate if somebody has to drive somewhere? I mean, there's all this practical stuff, but there's also the emotional stuff. I woke up this morning a little earlier than I wanted to, and it became clear I wasn't getting back to sleep. Even trying to use my program tools to help me relax and get back to sleep. I'm like, okay, this is what it is right now. So I got up, drove down to the tow yard this morning and cleared all the stuff out of the car and got a closer look at the damage and how many airbags this car had. Which is I think why she's effectively not injured.

[01:05:49] I think she's got some soreness here and there, but. You know, there's an airbag in the steering wheel. There's an airbag above the steering wheel. There's an airbag in the door to the side. There was an airbag in front of the knees. She said, every time you get a newer car, it's safer. I'm like, thank God, thank God. But we're still recovering emotionally, trying to figure out what to do. and I'm just glad that we do have tools and we do have friends, and we do have a program, because trying to negotiate this without those, it would be a lot harder. And I think that's an understatement.

[01:06:35] Um, andcoming back again to the important thing, yeah, we're okay. The other driver's okay.The cars are not. Cars are replaceable,

[01:06:47] Mary: Yeah.

[01:06:48] Spencer: people are not.

[01:06:50] So that's what's going on in my life right now. and I am glad that I have my recovery tools to help me deal with it.

[01:06:58] So how about you? How's your recovery life working?

[01:07:02] Mary: Recovery is going very well. I had this moment last week where I finished a conversation with my co-sponsor and I was walking back home. Sometimes I'd like to take a little walk during our conversations. And as I was walking back home, I was like, I am really happy. And I tried to like savor that feeling of wow, this is what it feels like to be happy. And I was like, wow, I'm really happy in my life right now.

[01:07:31] so yeah, my recovery's going well. I have my regular meetings and I think I'm realizing more and more, there's so much about my life and the world that I can't control and focusing more and more on the things that I can. Which is my own self, and not others decisions and behaviors and all of that. yeah, I am very grateful.

[01:07:58] I'm turning 50 this year. I know Spencer, I don't look it, but I am turning 50 and, I, I have really enjoyed getting older. Even though it's come with the body changes, meaning like my shoulders aren't working the way they used to. I have this thing called frozen shoulder right now, which makes it very difficult to like, tie my hair or reach for things up in the cupboards with my left hand. But, despite those things, I am finding out more and more who I am, what I like, what I don't like, what I want, what I don't want, and how to ask for what I need, how to speak up when things bother me in a way that is productive and not just reaction, to the things.

[01:08:50] I had some weird things happen this past weekend. I woke up to a deceased cat in my front yard, which was the first time I ever experienced that. And I was like, whoa, that's weird. And I came back right away into the house and I was like, Hey, partner, there's a deceased cat.

[01:09:12] I was on my way to somewhere for one of my hobbies and my spouse was like, oh my gosh, throw it away. And I was like, no, I don't want to touch it. So then they were like, I'm gonna ask chatGPT what I'm supposed to do when there's a, a dead animal and it's not our cat. we don't have cats.

[01:09:36] So, we put in a report to the local animal control and they came and got it the next day, which was nice. But it was very interesting. Several people knocked on our door and were like, knock, knock, knock. did you know that there's a dead cat? Yes, we're in fact aware that there's a dead cat in our front yard and we are waiting for animal control to come and get it.

[01:09:59] I don't know. would I have been the kind of person to do that without recovery? I don't think I would do that now.knock on a stranger's yard and tell them probably something that they already know. Anyway,I had these intrusive thoughts like, oh, this is a bad omen, like something bad is gonna happen and then, something kind of bad did happen. My son sprained his ankle on the trampoline the same day, which he has never injured himself before. He was a bit upset about it, but we were able to calm him down. And he explained later, it wasn't because it like hurt so much, it was because he was disappointed he couldn't play tennis. They had a big tournament coming up.

[01:10:41] That's why. I was like, okay, that makes sense. He was able to get the medical care that he needed. It's not broken, it's just sprained. So he just was hobbling around for a little bit and I was like, huh, I wonder if that was the cat thing. But, I'm just chalking it up to coincidence. No one's trying to curse me or anything out there in the ether.Higher Power is still looking out for me and I'm in, in the loving care of my higher power always. so yeah, that's a little. Hodgepodge of weird things, but that's how my recovery in my life is going right now.

[01:11:13] Spencer: Thank you.

Upcoming

[01:11:14] Spencer: Looking forward in the podcast, we have a upcoming Tradition three episode. Getting back on the traditions bandwagon here,

[01:11:24] Mary: That's a tradition. I was thinking about step three and how that's not your favorite.

[01:11:30] Spencer: In the share. I did talk about the value of step three to me, but

[01:11:33] Mary: I was not a fan when I first encountered it, that's for sure. Tradition three. The relatives of alcoholics when gathered together for mutual aid may call themselves an Al-Anon family group, provided that as a group, they have no other affiliation. The only requirement for membership is that there be a problem of alcoholism in a relative or friend.

[01:11:52] Spencer: And we welcome your thoughts. You can join our conversation, leave us a voicemail or send us an email with your feedback or your questions. Mary, how can people send us feedback?

[01:12:02] Mary: You can send a voice memo or email to feedback at the recovery dot show, or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 7 3 4 7 0 7 8 7 9 5. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer. We'd love to hear from you. Share your experience, strength, and hope, or your questions about today's topic of crosstalk or any of our upcoming topics, including tradition three. If you have a topic you'd like us to talk about, let us know.

[01:12:36] If you would like advanced notice for some of our topics so that you can contribute to that topic. You can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback at the Recovery Show. Put email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.

[01:12:52] Spencer, where can our listeners find out more about The Recovery Show?

[01:12:57] Spencer: If you haven't already guessed, we have a website, which is the recovery dot show where we have all the information about the show, notes for each episode. So this episode's notes are at the recovery show slash 4 56. You can also listen to the episode there, but you're already listening to it. yeah. There will be links to the literature that we read from and talked about, videos for whatever music we ended up choosing, because I only have one song so far. Also on the website you can find links to some other recovery podcasts and websites.

Song 2

[01:13:33] Spencer: The second song that I chose is by the artist Q Feel. It's called “Crosstalk.” This is an electronic dance tune from the early 1980s. There are no lyrics available online, so I listened to it a bunch of times. The lines that feel most relevant to this episode are, “I'm getting crosstalk,” and, “Don't give me crosstalk. It's driving me insane.” I think that's entirely appropriate. It's a very catchy tune. Go check it out

[01:14:04]

Listener Feedback

[01:14:13] Spencer: Well, let's hear from you.

[01:14:16] Debbie left us a voicemail

[01:14:19] Debbie: I'm listening to the podcast on traditions, and I just heard to wait for the miracle to happen. And a lady sharing about the loss after years of her alcoholic partner. In twenty twenty-one, I lost my daughter, who was an alcoholic and suffered from addiction. She left behind a child who was five at the time. She's now nine. And that wait till the miracle happens, and I know there was a point where, you know, I really looked at the miracle. And you know what? It's like today, maybe that was the miracle. Maybe the miracle was like in the big book where it says that some people aren't able to recover. You know, that they have mental health conditions, and no matter how hard they try, that is just not the plan. You know, like we come into this program, and it says there's three things. There's either a person has institutionalization, recovery or death. And death is a part of life. Today, I look at it differently. Like maybe that was the miracle. Maybe that's what my daughter needed, you know? And it sounds harsh, but the miracle was her life and her life ending. Perhaps, after from the time she was twelve till the time she was twenty-two, that she's not suffering from pain anymore.

[01:16:00] I know that I was at that point where it's like, you know, where are these miracles? And Al-Anon doesn't promise us anything. It just promises that our life can be better and that there is a higher power to go through whatever circumstance. I feel in my experience that, the God of my understanding doesn't control, cause or cure things in my life, but is present in the things that I have to go through that I have no control over. My name's Debbie, and I'm a grateful member of Al-Anon.

[01:16:36] Spencer: Debbie, I want to thank you for sharing that.

[01:16:40] We have a voicemail from Roberta

[01:16:43] Roberta: Hiya, Spencer and Recovery Show people. I'm just commenting on the episode four fifty-four regarding sponsorship. My name is Roberta. I have a sponsee, that I acquired through a Zoom meeting. I'm in Northern California, she's in Southern California, and I attend this meeting pretty regularly. So does she. She reached out to me, and it's been a beautiful fit.

[01:17:09] I encourage people who aren't in the vicinity of areas where they can't get to in-person meetings or they're not sure about online meetings, what do you have to lose? You know, we'll refund your misery. Don't worry about that. But what do you have to lose to not just to reach out to somebody that you heard their experience, strength, and hope, and you like what they had to say?

[01:17:36] So we FaceTime, my sponsee and I, and even my personal sponsor. She's bicoastal. She comes to California, and she goes to New York. So I reach out to her via text. We'll try to schedule a phone call. When she comes to California, I make sure to make a point of meeting. It's a beautiful symbiotic relationship.

[01:17:59] So I'm very blessed, and I just appreciate what you do for the Recovery Show, Spencer, it's a great asset. Thank you. Thank you, and to everybody else who puts it on. Have an amazing day.

[01:18:11] Spencer: Thank you, Roberta, for sharing your experience about meeting a sponsee and your sponsor online and for encouraging others to reach out similarly.

[01:18:20] And we have a voicemail from Adrienne.

[01:18:24]

[01:18:24] Adrienne: Hey, Spencer. My name's Adrian. I was just listening to the sponsorship podcast and, although my story doesn't really have anything to do with sponsorship or anything like that, I know you've said in the past to call if you haven't heard anything similar to your story and share it. Right now I'm going through a bit of a tough time. I'm– was no contact with both my mom and dad who are still married. They both deal with addiction. I went no contact when I found out that they had both went back to their DOC.I don't know if they are still doing that now because I haven't been in contact. But my dad is now in the hospital, and, I know he's not doing well, and he wasn't doing well before.

[01:19:09] I took care of him for many months prior to this, and I got him sober and supported him through that and was unfortunately just told that I was taking advantage of him, because he was helping me with some bills while I was taking care of him. So that led to me choosing to go no contact because I felt like I was being used and it was just really difficult situation.

[01:19:31] That all being said, I am now, struggling with not seeing or talking to either of my parents and not being able to contact my dad. And afraid that his illnesses and things that he's got going on, may lead to a much darker result, — and I won't be able to say my goodbyes, and I just feel a lot of guilt.

[01:19:54] I'm, just having a tough time with that and would just kinda appreciate to hear anybody else's stories or just maybe some words of encouragement of how to deal with the guilt that you feel when you have aging parents, and possibly disabled and sick parents that, you had to estrange yourself from due to addiction or even just general issues that could not be seen eye to eye.

[01:20:26] Thanks so much for everything you do. I've really learned a lot from your podcast and from your guests and from the people that speak, like me that tell their stories. It really makes me feel like I'm not alone, and it reminds me that I can do this and things will be okay. Thanks.

[01:20:45] Spencer: Thank you for calling, Adrienne. I'm fortunate to have not been in your situation. I can suggest that you pray on it, talk to your sponsor and other program friends. I've found that, you know, sometimes sharing my problem helps me to see my way to some resolution. And of course, asking your higher power for help is always a good idea.

[01:21:09] I'm also putting it out here and inviting any listener who's been in a similar place to share your experience, strength, and hope. I'm positive that you, Adrienne, are not the only person who is or has been in this situation. And in fact, your share may have already helped them to feel less alone. So thanks.

[01:21:30] Here's a voicemail from Amy

[01:21:33] Amy: Dear Spencer, I would just like to thank you for your podcast. I don't remember exactly how I came upon it, but it found me at one of the darkest times in my marriage. My husband had just had a seizure after detoxing himself. I'm still living with this disease on a day-to-day basis. There are good days, and there are definitely bad days.

[01:21:53] He continues to detox himself, which I know is not a healthy option. Through your podcast and by joining an Al-Anon group, I have found hope, courage, and strength to take things one day at a time. I would not be where I am today without my Al-Anon family, your podcast, and also Sober Speak, which I discovered through you.

[01:22:12] Listening to Sober Speak has also made a real difference in my life. I've learned so much from hearing alcoholics share their experience, thoughts, and feelings. It has helped me better understand what may be going on with my husband at times, even when his words or actions don't make sense to me in the moment.

[01:22:30] Your wisdom, in-depth conversations, and the work of your hosts have all had a meaningful impact on me. I cannot thank you enough. Even though I am living with active alcoholism in my home, I have learned that I can still live a good life. I can still go to work, attend family events, and carry on with my day, whether my husband is sober or not.

[01:22:53] I am very grateful for the support I have gained through your podcast. I also want to share that during one of the hardest periods after my husband's hospitalization and when I moved out temporarily into a rental home, I spent a lot of time catching up on your episodes. At that time, I really leaned on your podcast for support and understanding.

[01:23:13] I've also appreciated hearing your own journey over the years, from the early days of the podcast when there were three of you, to the changes in your life, your children growing up, and everything in between. It has been meaningful to witness that alongside my own struggles. You are doing an amazing job, and I truly appreciate the time and effort you put into this podcast. It helps so many people who are going through very difficult times. I am quite the traveler, and if I ever find myself out west where you are attending an Al-Anon meeting, I will be looking for you and your purple hair. Thank you again, Spencer. Thank you so, so much.

[01:23:50] Spencer: Thank you, Amy. I totally echo your statement that you can have a good life while living with active alcoholism because that was my experience. Now, that phase of my journey lasted only a couple of years, but it was Al-Anon that absolutely made it survivable. Well, the phase of my journey where I had a good life while living with active alcoholism, the part of living with active alcoholism before recovery was definitely longer than that.

[01:24:19] Here's a voicemail from Morgan

[01:24:22] Morgan: Hi, my name is Morgan, and I'm actually from Canada. I love listening to your podcast. One thing I've been really struggling with right now is dealing with a bit of what I guess Al-Anon will call a dry drunk situation. And I'm struggling to find some literature for what I'm going through because my first qualifier for the program is my ex-boyfriend, and we were together entering the program, and he's still sober.

[01:24:47] So that dry drunkness has been causing a lot of toll on me, and he kinda left me and started trying to date someone in the program, and he's very chaotic, and I've been trying to wait and not take the bait. So I was just wondering if there was anything that you guys could help me with or anyone else who's had a similar situation.

[01:25:07] I've only found things about, like, divorce, and it's kinda difficult being a young person in the program when a lot of people say, “Hey, well, you know, you weren't married, you don't have kids. you're free. You can go on and be with someone else. You don't have to be with this person.” And it's a little struggling.

[01:25:23] So I love your podcast, and I would love some help and advice on this. Thanks.

[01:25:29] Spencer: Thanks for calling, Morgan. I see two related problems here. One is living with the dry drunk behavior, and here I feel like the basic tools of Al-Anon, loving detachment, focusing on your own life, can be helpful. It's similar to living with active drinking, where I needed to focus on my life and detach from my wife's alcoholic behavior in order to have any peace and serenity of my own. The second problem, I'll call it stay or go, and the Al-Anon tool that can apply here is to do some inventory. You might ask yourself questions like, “Why am I still attracted to this person who has left me?” Or, “What would happen to me if I let go of him?” In addition, of course, you can ask for help from your higher power to let go of this relationship that is apparently over. I know it's tough.

[01:26:21] Marcelle wrote an email about episode four forty-one, Transforming Dating Patterns in Recovery. Dear Spencer and Brenda, I was one of the ones that wrote in and asked for some experience, strength, and hope about dating after and during recovery. I just listened to it, and I'm going to listen to it again right away.

[01:26:40] Thank you so much for listening to all of us who ask for certain topics. They are all so good and so useful and are really life-saving. Mostly, I search a topic and then listen to a few episodes. There's so many, and it's such a rich legacy you've created with the help of many beautiful souls. I return again and again to this vast resource. I just want to say thank you and express my deep gratitude.

[01:27:03] Thank you, Marcelle, for writing

[01:27:06] And we have a voicemail from Ellen

[01:27:08]

[01:27:08] Ellen: Hi, Spencer. Ellen from Pennsylvania here. I just heard your show, and you mentioned about caretaking. I think that's a great topic. I have had the opportunity of helping my parents for the last couple of years. They were in a nursing home, but I helped with things that the nursing home didn't do. Neither of them were technically my qualifier, but there was significant emotional stress back and forth with my father.

[01:27:35] I also have a brother who has what I'm gonna call a minor disability. And sometimes, we, the family, sometimes need to give him some guidance. He is sort of one of my qualifiers.

[01:27:47] So, I think that would be a great idea. You know, being part of the solution, not part of the problem and guiding, not insisting any more than we have to for safety.

[01:28:01] Thank you for all you do. It has helped with so much of my Al-Anon and life journey. All right, take care.

[01:28:07] Spencer: Thank you, Ellen, for sharing a little of your own experience. And you did offer to co-host an episode, so I'm going to take you up on that offer. You should be hearing from me shortly, if you haven't already.

[01:28:20] We got a review on Apple Podcasts titled Life Saver.

[01:28:24] I turn to this podcast many nights when I can't seem to stop the noise in my head and the ache in my heart. I trust in the Al-Anon principles, attend meetings, and live a full life. Yet addiction, alcohol predominantly, is bigger than me. I often feel overwhelmed by its power. I witness in my loved ones the power I now see it controlled in my upbringing and still the destruction of my beautiful family. I currently choose to live with my husband's active addiction, trying to keep loving, healthy relationships with my grown children and him. It is not an easy path, and Spencer and his people are a soft place to land day in and day out.

[01:29:02] This is from a person who signs themself as Go Layne in the US. Thank you for that review. That is our feedback for this episode.

Thank you, Mary

[01:29:14] Spencer: Mary, I want to say thank you so much for joining me today, for talking about crosstalk and helping me to read all of the shares that were sent in by listeners. We have quite a wealth of material here. Thank you.

[01:29:29] Our last song selection is Biscuits by Kacey Musgraves. And again, you can listen to this at therecovery.show/456. This is a song about minding your own business, as we'll see in the tagline from the chorus. Here's some lyrics: Taking down your neighbor won't take you any higher. I've burned my own damn finger poking someone else's fire. I've never gotten taller making someone else feel small. If you ain't got nothing nice to say, don't say nothing at all. And then in the chorus, she sings, “Mind your own biscuits and life will be gravy.” It's a fun little tune and very catchy.

Outro

[01:30:12] Spencer: Thank you for listening. Please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you're facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. Understanding love and peace, growing you one day at a time.