[00:00:00] Spencer: Are you estranged from someone? What help have you found in recovery?

[00:00:05] Welcome to episode 452 of the Recovery Show.

[00:00:09] This episode is brought to you by Elena, Jane and Ted. They used the donation button on our website. Thank you, Elena, Jane, and Ted for your generous contributions. This episode is for you.

[00:00:22] We are friends of family, members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction, understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:39] Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program. During this show, we'll share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you'll find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:00:58] My name is Spencer. I am your host today.

[00:01:01] This episode continues the conversation that Eric and I had about estrangement in episode 450, bringing in voices from another, I think 10 listeners.

[00:01:13] We'll start with an email from Patrick.

[00:01:18] Many years ago, I made a mistake by telling my younger brother that he could stay with me if he ever had to. It was a statement that I regretted making when, years later, he lost his job and couldn't find just the right replacement employment. He was unemployed for many years. He burned through his savings and then his friendships by couch surfing for months on end. Then he came asking to live with me. I told him that I was not in a position to help him.

[00:01:45] I've heard it said that it's better to give a resentment than get one. He developed a resentment toward me that he still carries to this day. I've tried to apologize for making a promise I was not prepared to keep. He won't accept my apology. He finally has achieved new employment, but he has shut me out of his life, so I have no clue what he's doing.

[00:02:05] We see each other at the holidays, but he only answers my questions in one or two word answers. I am sad that I've effectively lost my brother. I see it as a step one issue. I know I am powerless over his reaction to me. I accept that that is his choice, and I'm still sad, so I grieve the loss of the relationship.

[00:02:25] Thank you, Patrick, for sharing that experience.

[00:02:29] Mary Lou writes, I agree with your friend that our literature doesn't really deal explicitly with the issue of estrangement, but at least in the meetings I go to, I think it's widely acknowledged that estrangement can be a valid response to addiction.

[00:02:45] In some cases, it's a necessity. Our literature focuses primarily on the difference between amputation, something I felt compelled to use before program, and detachment with love, which is sometimes just an aspiration. By the time I had gotten to Al-Anon, I had experienced estrangement initiated by me with three family members who were active in their disease. By the time I got to Al-Anon, I was full of resentment for them. When I got to step four, I remember asking my sponsor about how to deal with what I considered justifiable resentments. She just chuckled knowledgeably.

[00:03:24] Before I got to Al-Anon, it had literally never occurred to me that the person in my life who needed to change was me. All of my energy was focused outward on changing others. In my experience, it's so easy to see the mistakes of our loved ones and way more difficult to see our own. At least for me it was. It was challenging, but ultimately healing for me to consider my part in the estrangements. Shocking.

[00:03:50] I can see now that my fears for my loved ones often showed up in terms of what seemed like extreme binary choices, like the proverbial stay versus leave. In Al-Anon, I now have to learn to take responsibility for how fear and uncertainty shows up in my life. Rigid binaries are one of the most common.

[00:04:09] At the time I would've denied this because I felt so justified, said with so much passion. When I came to Al-Anon, I heard Let Go or Be Dragged. At that time, I felt I could look decades into my future. To what felt to me like a lifetime of being dragged behind a pickup truck. Detachment from my then 16-year-old son seemed impossible. Letting go, felt like watching him fall off the earth into the abyss. So much drama.

[00:04:38] We had a newcomer show up to a meeting once with a newborn baby in his arms and a big head of steam about his spouse who was in inpatient rehab at the time. He said that if she didn't stop drinking immediately, she would be out of their lives. That was it. No do-overs. I said, I understand, and I'm not sure that's exactly how it works. What do you mean? Whether he liked it or not, his wife would always be that baby's mom.

[00:05:03] By the time I got to Al-Anon, my father, one of the family members from whom I had been estranged earlier in my life, had been dead for 18 years, but I could still hear his voice in my head. So much for being estranged.

[00:05:17] Someone once described addiction as feeling like your car is stuck in a ditch. You're revving the engine, dirt is flying. It feels like something is going to happen imminently. Someone walking by who isn't as tied to the outcome may say, Hmm, looks like maybe that person should get out and call a tow truck. So logical. But when I'm captured by the feverishness of someone else's addiction, everything feels so acute. Acceptance of the obvious can feel like giving up.

[00:05:44] It is funny to me now how binary this felt at the time. My experience is that mostly addiction is mundane, even static, and can go on over a lifetime. It's rarely so acute. Not never, but mostly. Estrangement can also feel so acute or it can be lukewarm, cool or icy. To me, that's recovery, more gray, less black and white. To me, detachment with love means I'm the one whose thinking needs to change. Detach stands for don't even think about changing him or her.

[00:06:18] It makes sense that I have to change because I'm the one who's so tied to a specific outcome. But worrying and harboring a hot resentment is not the same as setting an appropriate boundary. Boy, do I hate that. Our literature does address situations with imminent threats of violence, but if that's not the case, then we get to learn about how to set and keep an appropriate boundary. When I first got to Al-Anon I thought this was just BS. I was certain that I could predict how things would go if I wasn't enforcing what I thought was right.

[00:06:49] But in recovery, we learn a new way that detachment involves letting go of the outcome and maybe not letting ourselves be drawn into situations where we're simply enabling inappropriate behavior. As we may have done previously, to keep the peace and not rock the boat. It's not picking up our end of the tug of war rope. It is reaching out and talking through our fears with our sponsor before we go into situations we may approach with dread and having more than one thing we can say or do. It's also not unilaterally and automatically deciding what's best for our family members without even consulting them. It's a complicated process of learning and making mistakes, backing off and maybe stepping up as our own recovery progresses. It's really hard and it doesn't always work perfectly. On an ongoing basis, I have to remind myself to look for the good in my family members and try to see things from their viewpoint as well as mine.

[00:07:43] This is already a lot, so I'll stop here. I wish your friend as much healing and recovery as is possible in this situation. And when it's actually impossible to reconcile with our family of origin members, we can learn to create our own chosen families. Signed Mary Lou.

[00:07:59] Thank you Mary Lou. There's a lot in there. A big thing I pull from there is detachment, detachment with love, as opposed to abandonment or really just cutting off somebody. But you're right, we can't be waiting for the other person to change because that may or may not happen, and we have no control over that.

[00:08:19] Marcy wrote, dear Spencer, I'm estranged from my niece. We are both grown women and I think the estrangement happened when she was going through her divorce. I think some things I said caused her to wall me off and out of her life in a way that is very different than ever was before. This happened long before I was in the program.

[00:08:40] She's not that much younger than me because my sister is much older than me. There hasn't seemed a way for us to talk about this. She's on my step eight list, but may not stay because I'm not sure I have an amends to make. It might be that I just didn't do what she wanted me to do and say, and that's not my business. When I do step eight with my sponsor, I'll know.

[00:09:01] We don't live near each other, but interact about family stuff and her kids hanging out with me, et cetera. But it's kind of the elephant in the room. I don't know how to initiate a conversation about it, so I just communicate with her out of love every time I have a reason to reach out, or if she contacts me. She's so very special to me, and if I stepped out of my lane and into hers, I would like to make amends. I'm currently on step eight, so I don't have any strength, experience, or hope to share yet from Marcy. Thank you, Marcy.

[00:09:31] Raquel writes, hi Spencer. I've been estranged from three family members. After joining Al-Anon. It seems as if me getting myself off the merry-go-round has disrupted the false dynamic of the relationships. It hurts. I have chosen to wrap them in a loving blanket and continue to work my program. I care for them. The need to protect my serenity is my priority. Thanks, Raquel.

[00:09:55] From Kelly. Hi Spencer. I've been estranged from one of my family members, my younger brother for over two years. Growing up we were close and the family disease did not start permeating our dynamic until my high school years. My younger brother is biologically my fraternal twin, but with recovery and other outside help, I have moved to identify as a middle sister to him and my older brother. In high school and through my early twenties, there was a lot of enmeshment and dysfunctional behavior, including partying together, difficult arguments and coercive behavior on his part.

[00:10:29] Choosing first to decrease the contact, then move to no contact while setting boundaries with my parents, our original qualifiers, has been a slow and sometimes confusing process that's taken over five years. The obligatory relationship I feel toward my family of origin combined with the fact that I am by birth a twin, and the only girl in my family has pulled me back into the role I think they expect from me and has constantly felt like a two steps forward, some steps back.

[00:10:59] I recognize this is the pace of my recovery, and I have been deeply grateful for the support and encouragement of my Al-Anon sponsor and Ali Pals and outside help. Setting and resetting the boundaries with my parents, especially my mom, about not wanting to hear about or talk about my younger brother has been hard. Hard, in that I initially expected that once I said it, my mom would remember, but it's taken years for us to establish the dynamic of her sharing updates and me asking for updates to start to undo and reset.

[00:11:29] My birthday shared with my younger brother and our paternal uncle, on purpose, so he would never forget our birthday or his own, passed with a significant decade shift, and I felt more free and peaceful than past years. I felt celebrated for my own birthday, not the shared day and not the shadow of obligation.

[00:11:48] I want to also share an experience with this estrangement from my younger brother that pushed me to use all my Al-Anon tools, sponsorship, prayer and meditation, listening for higher power, boundaries, pause. Earlier this year in spring, my mom had asked and I agreed to hear an update about my younger brother. I had a feeling it would be a big announcement, a new job, moving, divorce a baby. She shared that my younger brother and his wife were expecting their first child, an experience I'd normally want to show up for and support them, especially since it's such an impactful and huge identity shift and life experience.

[00:12:24] By agreeing to hear this news about my brother, I believe my mom suddenly felt okay with sharing more, which she did. It took a few phone calls with my sponsor to realize that my mom, even with my permission, had overstepped a crucial boundary for me and my peace. Not hearing about my brother. I was feeling guilty, worried, and confused with the news, thinking should I reach out to him? This is such a big change. I wanna be there for him. Maybe this is the reason to get back in touch. Telling non-program friends about the news, many responded to say I should reach out. Talking with my sponsor and outside help. I recognized that I did not want to move from estrangement, even with this big life.

[00:13:03] With that awareness and the gentle reminder from my sponsor that boundaries are not one and done. They need to be reset and requested over and over, especially if they overlap with old alcoholic behaviors. I told my mom again that I don't want to hear updates about my younger brother, and she was supportive. She has not given me an update since that. When the baby was born, my older brother, a double winner, but unrecovered Al-Anon, called me saying he had an update about our younger brother. I knew in my gut that it was about the baby, and I took a pause to slow down and reflect on whether I wanted to talk about my estranged brother. With a day of quiet reflection and talking with my sponsor, I realized that I did not want an update. Despite that feeling is so strange since the news, what about something so joyous and positive? I told my older brother via text that I did not wanna talk about our younger brother. He said he understood and that was that.

[00:13:57] I still struggle with estrangement from my younger twin brother. There was more time in my life that we were connected from going to school together through high school, having overlapping friend groups and growing up in an alcoholic home together. My recovery in Al-Anon and other outside help has helped me to decide to not have a relationship with him. I was constantly molding myself to fit with his expectations and accepting unacceptable behavior, verbal abuse, gaslighting, overall meanness and disrespect throughout my life. It wasn't until I started Al-Anon and discovered the roots of the family disease that I recognized my part and how often I would abandon myself because I thought it was what a good sister, good daughter, good person would, should do.

[00:14:40] I don't know what the future holds for my younger brother and myself. I don't know him anymore, nor does he know me. I hope to express that for anyone considering a path of estrangement, no contact, low contact, no in-person, total cutoff, it's absolutely something to do for yourself. Your recovery, peace, wellbeing. Obligation, and guilt are traps to stay in unhealthy patterns and relationships, especially if the relationship is family of origin based. Use your tools and take it day by day.

[00:15:12] Thank you, Kelly. Thank you for expressing how you are holding to your boundaries and using your recovery tools.

[00:15:19] From David. Hi Spencer. Estrangement exists on a spectrum from low contact to complete cutoff. The duration also varies, but AI defines the word to be not just a brief falling out, but one that lasts months or permanent.

[00:15:35] Your friend's situation is described as father child. I have this situation being estranged from my adult alcoholic child for 17 months now. However, unlike your friend, I know he is alive and have. Brief encounters at family gatherings.

[00:15:50] Claude AI states that 10% of Americans are estranged from a parent or child. This is 25 million people. Up to 25% of children can be estranged from their father significantly more than from their mother. These stats do not reflect whether the estrangement is ongoing or a thing of the past, but the stats do show most estrangements last at least one year. A word of caution. These stats are from AI and other stats are not always correct, although they do state the source.

[00:16:19] So: Given these statistics, it is hardly surprising that estrangement is common for some length of time in an alcoholic family situation. Indeed, our Al-Anon literature teaches the need to protect oneself from abuse. Practiced attachment, letting go, not accepting unacceptable behavior, et cetera.

[00:16:37] My conflict with my child has been long lasting with years of verbal abuse and unacceptable behavior. Years of anxiety on my part in trying to fix slash control my child's behavior. Culminating one day in the summer of 2024 with a lengthy argument with mutual outpouring of anger, hurt, name calling, and blame towards each other.

[00:16:58] My child, within a few days thereafter declared I was out of his life and he wanted no more contact from me. I had tendered a chance to try and talk, but this was rejected.

[00:17:08] The situation has produced mixed emotions for me. On the one hand, some recognition that he had the ability to cease a relationship that was unhealthy for both of us. I did not have the strength or courage to do that. In the short term, I felt some relief, freedom from the need to fix and a way to end my behavior of excessive, often unasked for, responsibility for my child. That feeling of relief, not having to deal with the day-to-day drama made me feel guilty and thinking I should not feel this way judging myself. However other deeper, longer lasting emotions exist as of course, I also feel the loss of what could have been, vague fear, but most of all, sadness.

[00:17:47] I do not know what will happen in the future. There is always hope for my child's recovery and hope that perhaps the situation will change. But I am not fixated on that hope. I do not know what the future may bring. I can't fix him. I accept my child may find recovery, but if so, it will not be because of anything I say or do. I accept that my child will have their own path even though I don't like it. Have their own higher power. In meditations and prayer, I extend wishes for happiness, safety, and health to my child, the same wish I also extend to many others. David.

[00:18:23] Thank you David for sharing that.

[00:18:25] Susan writes, hi Eric. I have lots of estrangement experience. Unfortunately, it's my family's go-to for managing conflict. There is no conference approved literature that I know of. I found great wisdom in the book, Rejected, Shamed and Blamed by Rebecca Mandeville. She has a lot of great YouTube videos as well. Estrangement is the theme for the most recent issue of Psychology Today with the main article focusing on parent child estrangement. Happy to help if I can take care, Susan F

[00:18:57] Anne says, hello, Spencer and Eric, in response to your email request, I would say that the action of staying in program was most important during the early period of estrangement, certainly, and especially. I kept going to meetings. I kept connecting with a sponsor. Another action was staying with therapy, having one specializing in addiction and codependency and other co-occurring maladies really was important, and seemed to increase the speed of my recovery.

[00:19:24] Tools. Slogans for sure the shorthands, a la Eric, were extremely useful. IEI put a Q-tip in every pocket I owned.

[00:19:34] Behaviors. I got further involved in my community of faith, church council, mission commission, outreach group, bereavement committee, et cetera. I stuck with a consistent Sunday service attendance as well.

[00:19:46] Hope this is helpful. Thank you isn't enough for all you do for the recovering community and continuing loyal listener, Ann. Thank you, Anne.

[00:19:55] We got a voicemail from Heather.

[00:19:59] Heather: Hey there, Spencer. This is Heather C from Southern California. Thanks so much for the estrangement topic. Estrangement is really a tough one for me. When I was growing up, I couldn't really understand why my parents axed out both sides of their family. We had them in our lives when I was a little kid.

[00:20:17] Until we didn't and it was never talked about. It was really confusing. Anytime the family members were brought up, it was with utter disdain and blame and criticism. And so I learned as a little kid to demonize anyone who didn't agree with my mother or anyone who did her wrong. She was the consummate victim.

[00:20:36] It was her way or you were out of the family. And there was nothing like the Al-Anon traditions that allow for flexibility, independent thought, and an equal voice at the table because we all matter. As I got older, I completely bucked much of her way. I could see the dysfunction all around me, so I became the one who was the problem in her eyes, and my dad never spoke out against her as he had his own codependent baggage.

[00:21:06] I. As a kid, I had nowhere to go. So I could only take the criticism and blame, although I did learn to JADE along the way, justify, argue, defend, and explain. And then, you know, finally I was old enough to leave and I got as far away as I could, but mentally and emotionally, I could never get far enough away.

[00:21:27] That's what the family disease does. I carried her with me in my mind, that critical parents still judging myself and also now judging others as harshly as I judge myself, always desperately seeking that love and approval. I did spend a few years along the way icing my parents out thinking it was easier and less painful than having them in my life.

[00:21:52] And truly it was. I loved it. But honestly the thinking never left me. I still always had a spiritual void inside of me that was addicted to wanting love and approval from everyone. And I carried on the behaviors that I had learned. Just another link in the chain of generational trauma causing wreckage basically in all areas of my life.

[00:22:17] When I came into Al-Anon, I told my sponsor, Hey, you know, I basically have an emotional void where my parents are, so we don't really have to do any work on them. And she just laughed and she was like, okay. But as I started doing the work and listening to fellows experience strength and hope, my heart really started to soften in ways that I wanted to try to be a daughter who could coexist with my parents and hold myself in dignity regardless of their.

[00:22:45] Disease and I am proud of the progress that I've made along the way, but the truth is they didn't change. It's still, to this day, hard to be around them. It's hard to be around a narcissist who criticizes me, still, and blames me regardless of how I live or how I treat them with the dignity of their experience.

[00:23:10] It's hard to be unsupported by people, even when I accept them for who they truly are and truly know they are doing the best they can. And I have learned to support myself, so I am really proud of myself and where I've detached from the family ties that bound me in codependency. I feel at peace when I exercise my own personal boundaries and make decisions that don't ever compromise myself in order to please them.

[00:23:37] And all of that is pretty loudly unappreciated by my family. Even this week, my sister actually texted me. She's now facing caring for our aging parents because she's unwilling to do the same kind of work that I've done or anyone in Al-Anon has done to break free. She's got a significant resentment toward me because I make decisions that are no longer based in the fear of getting that backlash from my parents, and I just have to let go of that and show up for her with compassion and empathy, even as I make decisions around how I am willing to participate with my parents.

[00:24:16] I know how hard and lonely it feels to cut these ties, and I have empathy and acceptance for the fact that my parents have no one in their lives because they've axed every single person with their blame and their criticism. Or simply, you know, people have chosen not to take their BS anymore, and so they've stopped coming around.

[00:24:38] I can't blame my sister. I can only decide how I show up with her, and that is trying to be, you know, in love, so that she knows I love her regardless of any decision she makes. And she knows that I won't X her out like we were taught, even though she frequently does isolate from me. So I do get sad that I don't have quality family time or connection with my bio family, but I today have a chosen family around me who reciprocate healthy and loving behavior, and that feels amazing.

[00:25:12] Today I also have a loving higher power that I have defined and decided on and committed to. And that higher power is helping me rewrite the voice of the critical parent with a voice of care and truth based in an elevated higher power and unconditional love and acceptance. And today I choose to limit my engagement with my parents.

[00:25:36] Some may call that estranged, many may call it selfish. I choose to call it healthy, prioritizing myself and giving them the dignity of the choices they've made for their lives. And you know, I'm a lot less reactionary and a lot more at peace with my own life today. So thanks so much for letting me share and thanks for all the service you do bringing us these topics.

[00:25:58] Spencer: Thank you, Heather, for sharing your experience, strength, and hope.

Outro

[00:26:03] Spencer: And I wanna say thank you to everybody who wrote in about estrangement, and to Eric for providing the topic and a lot of experience, strength, and hope, in the first episode, number four 50. Thank you for listening and please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you are facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding, love and peace grow in you one day at a time.