Intro

[00:00:01] Spencer: Have you decided yet to drop the rock?

[00:00:03] Welcome to episode 449 of the Recovery Show. This episode is brought to you by Laura and Dorothy. They used the donation button on our website. Thank you Laura and Dorothy for your generous contributions. This episode is for you.

[00:00:18] We are friends and family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with a seemingly hopeless problem of addiction, understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:36] Kathy: Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program. During this show, we will share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you'll find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:00:57] Spencer: My name is Spencer. I am your host today. Joining me today is Kathy, and I wanna say welcome back, Kathy, you were here just a couple episodes ago, episode 4 47 on Patience and Acceptance when Life Gets Lifey. Before that you were talking about Leaning into Faith in episode 3 84, which was July, 2022. And there was another one before that, a couple before that. So welcome back.

[00:01:21] Kathy: Thanks. Glad to be here.

Drop the Rock

[00:01:23] Spencer: What's with this dropping the rock thing?

[00:01:26] Kathy: There's a book that's not an official like program literature book in any program, but it was written by three people who were in AA and it's referenced a lot in AA. The topic is actually pulled out of a talk that was given at an AA meeting or an AA conference a long time ago. The book was introduced to me early in program by a friend who was in both programs. I read it and really liked it. It has really stuck with me, especially some of the stories have just stayed with me the whole time that I've been in program now. So I thought it would be good to talk about and share.

[00:02:06] So the idea is that we carry around defects that are like rocks in our pockets that weigh us down. And if we can connect with that and drop the rocks, it frees us.

[00:02:18] Spencer: Our shortcomings or character defects, or the new phrase that I'm liking, character defaults, are things that are not productive in our life anymore, that are holding us back. They're like rocks weighing us down, and in steps six and seven, we become willing to let go of the rock, and then we actually let go of it, and it makes our life freer and lighter. Is that how you take it?

[00:02:44] Kathy: it is.

[00:02:45] Spencer: We're gonna read some excerpts from the book and then talk about them. Sort of like a book study meeting kind of thing.

[00:02:53] Kathy: We can start with my favorite section of the book, which is on page three. It's a story that one person's telling to another.

[00:03:01] Billy O once gave me this example. At a recovery convention, someone I sponsor approached me to talk about a problem he was having. His mom was at the same convention and he was unable to deal with it. He needed to talk to me about talking to her. I was practicing my defect of lust and enjoyed being distracted by looking for available women. I blew him off. He ended up talking to his mom. I believe that God used my defect of lust to keep me unavailable, to eliminate the middleman. The kid went straight to the source and used the tools he had to talk to his mom. This reminds me, how do I know when I'm being defective? God uses our defects and our assets in many ways to accomplish his will.

[00:03:48] Spencer: What did this reading say to you? Because you say this has really stuck with you.

[00:03:52] Kathy: Yeah. This is the one piece that has stayed with me more than any of the rest of it. I just find it really comforting that there's lots of reasons why my defects could pop up and that they may be part of my higher powers plan, for others, right? Not even me, like in this example. When I am hard on myself about something that's going on, or a defect that popped up, I can remind myself that maybe there's a reason why this defect popped up, just like in this example.

[00:04:19] And just because I'm sliding over to a more negative space doesn't mean that I'm bad or I'm doing something bad. It's just me being a human and, recognizing it and taking the next indicated step. Kinda makes it softer,

[00:04:36] Spencer: Yeah. Something else that I see here is that he becomes aware that he's practicing this thing that he's calling a defect, through the fact that he feels like he wasn't there for his sponsee. But that in fact, that was sort of the right thing for, as he calls him, the kid.

[00:04:57] But at the same time, and he doesn't say this, but at the same time, I think that makes him aware of it. Oh, this is an old behavior that I've been trying to let go of, and my higher power gave me an opportunity to become aware of it again.And to decide like how much of this I wanna let go of, maybe, or maybe not.

[00:05:19] At least in the Al-Anon literature, we're told that some of our shortcomings are just assets where the volume's been turned up too high,

[00:05:29] Kathy: I feel the same. and there's more examples of that. for me, when I have a defect, or some behavior that, that I wanna improve on, I get to see all kinds of examples of how that's impeding me or, getting in my way, before I get to the willing part to really hand it over and try to change my behavior.

[00:05:49] Spencer: Oh yeah, becoming aware for me is a huge part of the willingness.

[00:05:54] Kathy: And that uncomfortableness, watching it pop up again and again.

[00:05:58] Spencer: So how are you using this understanding? I.

[00:06:03] Kathy: When I was first in program, I did not like the G word. I know I've mentioned that before. But faith is a big part of my life now and it's a huge part of my program. It's that spiritual piece of it. It's a great reminder to me of, when I ask for my higher power's help, then I need to let go of any kind of like negative self-talk or judgment that I may have with myself after the fact. When I go to meetings, I'll say a quick prayer, please help me to participate in this meeting in a way that helps at least one person and that person can be me. And then I need to let go. At times in the past I have gotten on myself, like, why in the world why did I say that? Why did I say that in a meeting? but it doesn't matter, you know, once I've asked for help, I just need to zip it and just be okay with being on the road of recovery and doing my best and let go of the negative self-talk.

[00:06:56] Spencer: I had an experience recently where I shared something in a meeting that I thought, is that oversharing? Is that relevant? And some days a week later, a friend came to me and said, I'm really glad you shared that because. It applies right now to a situation that's happening in my life, and I was glad to hear what you've had to say. So, yeah, you don't know, do you.

[00:07:22] Kathy: exactly. And that same exact thing happened to me. I was in a meeting and I was speaking from the heart. I was talking about something that was challenging for me and I said, you know, I realized I just need to put on my big girl panties and suck it up and move on. And I was, then I was like, Ugh. Why did I say that? But then right after the meeting, someone reached out to me and said, thank you so much for saying actually more than one person. Thank you for much, so much for saying that. I really needed to hear that and that's really gonna help me.

[00:07:49] I also used this, during the period that I've been unemployed, which I talk about in my most recent episode, for 10 months now. And by the way, as of today, I have a job. So thank you very much.

[00:08:02] Spencer: Oh, congratulations.

[00:08:04] Kathy: Yep, thank you. it's official as of today, so that's good. During the time that I've been unemployed, I use the same concept that I often ask my higher power for help to follow their plan for me. And when it's something that I don't like, doesn't mean that it's not ultimately the best thing for me. It's that I have a choice. I can choose serenity or I can choose suffering and, it's not gonna change the outcome. Right? I can struggle with it and fight against the current, or I can just try to roll with it and do the work, do the next indicated step, and have faith that it's gonna work out.

[00:08:39] Spencer: Okay. The next reading, is about prayer.

[00:08:43] Kathy: It's page 24 in the Drop the Rock book. It says Use prayer. Our ritual can include prayer. And I'll, I guess I'll just say, earlier in the book without reading the whole book here, right? It talks about different rituals that you can set up to help become willing or to get ready to let go of these defects.

[00:09:02] So our ritual can include prayer. Our daily meditation and practice can include prayer. We'll also talk about prayer in connection with the seventh step, but it is essential in the sixth. As in all the steps, prayer as a part of the ritual is doubly potent and can add depth and meaning to any commitment we decide to make. For example, willingness to be or stay willing.

[00:09:26] Use prayer to ask for awareness and willingness to receive. Use prayer to ask for depth and clarity. Use prayer to ask to become a better channel for our higher power. Use prayer to ask for ease and grace and surrender. Use prayer to ask how to pray. Use prayer to ask how to think and act. Use prayer to say thank you. Use prayer.

[00:09:50] Prayer can be considered cheating because of how much easier it makes the process go. Prayer is of no use when it is not used. Prayer is not only a matter of belief, it is a matter of practice. We can't get caught in the trap of dogma or method. Prayer is not about right or wrong, or should, or only.

[00:10:09] It is about a personal or individualized way to talk with God, or our higher power, or universal energy, or the collective unconsciousness, or whatever we want to call it. Prayer is not about someone else telling us how to pray or what to say. It is about communication.

[00:10:27] Spencer: Wow. There's a lot in there. I mean, wow. Use prayer for this, and this, and this, and this. Use prayer to ask how to pray.

[00:10:42] I have to remember that prayer is cheating. And it's of no use when it's not used. wow. I'm gonna have to think about this. Most of my prayer is the serenity prayer. Which I guess is about asking for awareness and willingness. Asking for ease and grace and surrender. Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. What is this saying to you?

[00:11:05] Kathy: This goes back to, early in program, I did not like the G word at all, and my sponsor was almost the opposite. She was very spiritual and she would sometimes suggest these kind of very formalized prayers and it was a struggle for me. the whole concept was a struggle, but this section, this part really made it softer and really opened up the way to do it with all these ideas. And it's just communication, right? and that's how I pray. Sometimes I'll use a serenity prayer, but usually it's just, help me with this, help me with this. Or just when I see something in nature, I'll just, stop and close my eyes and say hi, almost. You know, it's just like this connection. And I do it many times a day. This helped me get to the place where I am now.

[00:11:54] Spencer: There you go. I think that gets, for me, back to, when I was early in my Al-Anon recovery, I did not understand how the things that were being suggested were going to help me. In particular, the 12 steps. But what I heard was that these practices, including working the steps, had helped other people.

[00:12:20] And you know, I had to believe their experience. Which encouraged me to try it for myself. I guess for me that includes prayer. Hearing from other people, how they pray and how it has guided them, helped them, has encouraged me to do that. I have tried off and on, the third step and seventh step prayers from the big book. I have a prejudice against the language in which they are formulated. But the concepts that are in those prayers. In the third step prayer, to free me from the bondage of self. And in the seventh step prayer to remove from me the things that get in the way of my being of service. Sometimes I have to sort of reformulate them in a way that works better for my particular spirituality.

[00:13:24] Kathy: I agree. Yeah. Same for me.

[00:13:25] Spencer: I like here that it's like, don't get trapped in the way of there's a right or a wrong way, or a should,Do it the way that works for me. I'm communicating with my higher power. And then of course the other half of that, is shutting up and listening. IE sometimes called meditation.

[00:13:45] Kathy: Indeed.

[00:13:47] Spencer: So how have you been using prayer in your recent need to accept the extent of your unemployment and so on,

[00:13:56] I breathe. I ask for my higher powers help to show me their plan for me. I ask for patience. which we talked about last time? I'm sure.

[00:14:07] Kathy: yeah, I'm sure. And I also ask for help in being open and listening, especially when I feel like I'm at a crossroad. Do I want to do this or not? Is this a good choice? I'll pause, which is so important. Before I pull the trigger on something, pray about it and see which one feels like the better choice. Sometimes that's a soft answer. Sometimes it's a strong answer. Meaning, like a feeling, like trusting my instinct, basically. It's helping me connect with my instinct and be in touch with taking care of myself.

[00:14:45] Spencer: A long time ago in 2014, I did an episode titled Intuition or God's Will, which was kind of like looking at this question of if, I just feel something is the right thing to do, is that my higher power telling me or is that something else? And does it matter? I had sharings from a couple of other people that I've read into that episode. So number 61, if you wanna go back and, hear some early recovery show with me, probably floundering about a little bit on this topic

[00:15:15] Kathy: It was never floundering. No. It was

[00:15:17] Spencer: Okay. never floundering. Well, thank you. I appreciate

[00:15:20] Kathy: No,and I know I speak for. Some x number of a lot of people, right? When I say that, that all their podcasts that you have done have helped me so much. I've listened to every single one of them, many of them multiple times, and many of them walking my dog at night with my head so full it was gonna explode.

[00:15:42] And it really helped to just,

[00:15:45] Spencer: Calm a little bit, huh.

[00:15:46] Kathy: yeah. And connect a pipe into my head of some serenity and rational thought.

[00:15:51] Spencer: Wow. thank you. Really.

[00:15:53] What's the next section of the book that, you picked up?

[00:15:57] Kathy: The next section is prepare for cleansing, and it's from pages 28 to 33. And it's taking a look at the things that we do that perhaps we may want to do differently to be the kind of person that we're trying to be. It takes a look at language, at different addictive practices, food, workaholism, exercise. And then finally, clutter. And clutter is one of the things that is making me uncomfortable personally. I've included the section on clutter for the reading here.

[00:16:32] The last cleansing action suggested is to release the clutter in our life. We take a look at our storage areas and garage. We get rid of the stuff we've been packing around for years, every time we move. We give it to a charitable organization. We take a look in our closets, possibly if we haven't worn it in a year or a year and a half, we give it away. The point is we quit holding onto things that are useless to us. They may be very important to someone else who will use and wear them.

[00:17:03] We clean up our house or apartment. Those things we don't use but have been holding onto just in case, are let go. Release them. This way, we make room and our life for new and exciting things. This is more than just a physical act. It is symbolic of opening our life mentally, emotionally, spiritually for new things.

[00:17:23] It is very hard to reach for new adventures and growth in our lives when our hands are full, holding onto the baggage and excesses of our past. We are grateful for what we have in our life, taking nothing for granted, releasing what we can, getting ready to become more and less and better.

[00:17:42] Spencer: You said, clutter's been weighing on you recently.

[00:17:46] Kathy: It has. And it's one of those things where I'm seeing lots of examples of opportunities to do it differently. My closets are full. I pull out a few things, but there's way more opportunities than a few things. I know that I will be glad when I've done it. and It's, a matter of letting that discomfort get high enough that it's gonna propel me to make these changes that right now I'm just not apparently ready to make, but it's getting closer.

[00:18:17] Spencer: Awesome. I've mentioned before on the podcast that we've been living in this house for 38 years. We have 38 years worth of clutter. I think we finally emptied out the last couple of boxes that we moved here with. I'm not a hundred percent positive on that. There might still be a box with an aquarium in it that we haven't dealt with yet.

[00:18:45] When we were living in our previous location, I had been taking one of these adult classes at the local school in woodworking. I built a stereo cabinet. This was right around the time when we were making the transition from vinyl to CDs. So I had designed it with space for vinyl albums and I was gonna make some drawers to put CDs in. I didn't get it done before the class was over, but I had cut out all the boards for the drawers and just hadn't gotten them assembled. And then we moved. All those boards went into a box and they moved here and they got stuck on a shelf in the basement, still in the box, still with the packaging from the moving company. And they sat there for 37 years.

[00:19:34] Here's the thing that has helped us. We hired somebody to help with the decluttering. She can say, do you really need this? She has no emotional investment in any of our stuff. She's like, this doesn't look like you've used it in a long time.

[00:19:52] I knew I needed to get rid of the box of boards. There's a guy in the neighborhood who does woodworking. One day I said, hey Tom, I have a box with some cherry boards in it would you be interested. And he said, absolutely. So I gave them to him and he took them into his shop and he is sharing them with other people in the shop who will hopefully make something useful out of them or pretty one or the other, or both.only 37 years later. Oh my.

[00:20:20] Kathy: What you were saying reminds me of one thing, that maybe it would be good to share. A part of this is to make sure that I'm giving myself grace and compassion while I'm going through this. A lot of the stuff that I have in my garage and even my closet to some degree, is. I separated from my ex in 2017 and then we had this kind of long drawn out divorce thing. The result was, he moved outta state and I only took a fraction of my things and my daughter's things 'cause we were living in an apartment and there was literally no room. So the rest of our stuff went with my ex to his house that we bought together to intend to move and I didn't do it. So it was a big house and there's plenty of room that he had to store that. so it sat there for seven years and then when the divorce was final, part of the judgment was I needed to make arrangements to ship all that back. And I did. But it's like this time box with a lot of emotional weight to it. Not only for me, but my daughter. You know, it's like, ugh. It just makes me kind of itchy

[00:21:34] I've gone through a lot of it. You know, I have a therapist and she gave me the phrase of that has emotional weight, which I really appreciate that thought. It's a way to give myself a break. That's not easy. There's a lot of emotions and feelings and, a lot of things wrapped up in that. And that's just the way that it is. And going through that is a good process and I'm okay that it's taking time and I can give myself grace and compassion and just take one step at a time with it.

[00:22:07] Spencer: The next section seems to talk about seven deadly defects.

[00:22:11] Kathy: Yeah. In this book it talks about pride, envy. There's a section on envy on page 36 that says, when we envy others for what they own, for their standing in the community or for the people who care about them, we are on our way to self pity. This state of mind produces not only jealousy, reactive depression and an attitude that life's not fair, but also anger against the world.

[00:22:41] This piece, it just jumped right out at me. It totally reminds me of my mom, who sadly she never got past this. She passed away and never got into program. I used to see myself as a victim and have self pity, and then I would talk about my problems to my friends and they would feel sorry for me. And it's like how I got attention. and I don't do that anymore. It's what I was taught and it's just part of the childhood defects that don't serve me anymore. But this definitely speaks to me.

[00:23:12] Spencer: When I hear about the seven deadly sins or the defects, one of the things that occurs to me, it's way to prompt me to think about, to recognize, to become aware of things that I might not have thought of. I can take these words, pride, envy, gluttony, sloth,, and say, how does this appear in my life? Is this something that is getting in my way of who and how I want to be? That I might not have recognized.

[00:23:48] There's lots of different prompts that we use in doing inventory. There's the AA resentment inventory, fear inventory, sex inventory. Is there another one? Financial inventory. Right. That's another way of saying, how have I been not being the person I wanna be in these different ways. In Al-Anon, we have some very extensive sets of prompts in the Blueprint for Progress. What I have seen in working with people, is different kinds of prompts, different kinds of categorization, work better or not so well for different people.

[00:24:32] I have a sponsee who was having a lot of trouble with the blueprint. And I said, let's try doing the resentment inventory instead. And that worked better. Somebody else might be, hey, if I look at these seven deadly defects, how does that help me see the ways in which I'm doing well and the ways in which I'd like to improve? Opportunities for improvement, as somebody might say. I heard somebody talk about, yeah, I've got my strengths and my areas for improvement.

[00:25:00] Kathy: I like that.

[00:25:01] Spencer: I think pride came up for me. In my work in particular, I was highly respected and competent. In many ways I think that led me to feeling at times feeling prideful. Which led me to taking on things that weren't really mine to do. Which is where the problem was in that action that comes out of, I can do it. You know, I can do it is a good thing. And this is where we, talk about turning it up to 11. Being competent and confident is good. When I turn that knob up too far and it becomes pride, then it's not so helpful. Maybe I'm taking away from other people, or maybe I'm taking away from what I actually need to be working on. Because oh yeah, I can do this and I'm gonna do this, and everybody's gonna see how well I did it, even though it's not mine to do. So that one steps up for me.

[00:25:56] Gluttony can be a problem.

[00:25:58] Kathy: Yeah, it was interesting the way they describe it. It's not just food, which is, when I hear the word gluttony, it makes me think of overeating. But the perspective in the book is like consuming. It talks about how social media and marketing and advertising encourages us to, you know, keep up with the Joneses and have the best car and the best house and the best whatever. It's an interesting view on am I living within my means? Am I trying to pretend I'm someone else by what I'm buying?

[00:26:23] Spencer: yeah. There have been times in my life where I was doing that.

[00:26:27] Sloth. Avoidance and procrastination. Oh my God. We had a whole episode on, procrastination. Perfection. Procrastination and paralysis, I think was the title of that episode. It was a while ago. This is one that shows up for you. Does it?

[00:26:41] Kathy: It absolutely does. Yes. Yeah. it's ongoing work. I feel good about the fact that this is less of a struggle than it used to be for me. This one's so frustrating to me, because it's a self-defeating issue. it's all me. There's no one else. and avoidance. it's, it's tied to the perfectionism. I have a tendency to avoid things so that I don't do them wrong. And this weird pattern thing, which I used to not even have awareness of. I would just do it and not really understand why. I can be really over analytical in preparing for things, in that perfectionism. And this is, in the past and I still have a tendency to do it, but in the past. Now I can ask for help from my higher power. I can pray. and actually, I recently did this, please help me. Keep these two things or this one thing at the top of my list for tomorrow, and I wake up and I think about it and I do it. And it feels so empowering. I can't even tell you how good it feels when I have the ability to do that. And it goes well, and that's a good day. And I can't expect it's all gonna be perfect like that. but I'm absolutely doing much better than I was. And, at the same time, giving myself grace and compassion. I'm a human being. I'm not perfect. and I need to let go of the idea that I'm going to let go of my perfectionism perfectly.

[00:28:11] Spencer: Thinking about procrastination or just not getting things done, which is a form of procrastination, it's not so much the perfection thing. A few weeks ago, I was asked to do the lead in an online meeting. I had forgotten about it because I was asked like a month ahead, right? I got a reminder the day before and I was like, oh, yeah, what am I gonna talk about? So I pulled out my handy dandy daily readers. And, in One Day at a time in Al-Anon, I found a reading December 28th, which that's the day I was doing the lead, about intentions. In the reminder, it says, my intentions are good. When I do not fulfill them, I am disappointed. I may even be weighed down by a sense of guilt. How can I avoid this? I will try to clarify my intentions, decide what I really mean to do, say and accomplish. This will help me keep my life on a satisfactory, productive course.

[00:29:07] I put that together in my head with something that I had heard very recently on another recovery podcast. In the big book, it says, on awakening, we immediately set our mind to the day ahead. And I was like, this is something I don't do. I get up, and the first thing that I do in the morning is I pull out the New York Times puzzles on my phone and start working on them. I thought, I can take a minute, before I do that, to say, what do I intend to do today? What do I want to get done? What do I need to do today? Look at my schedule.Very often because I'm retired, my schedule says nothing, but there are things that I wanna do. At the beginning of the day, setting my mind to say, this is what I wanna do today, I think has helped reduce the amount of procrastination that happens.

[00:30:07] Anger.

[00:30:09] Kathy: Anger.

[00:30:10] Spencer: Anger, my goodness.

[00:30:12] Kathy: In the section about anger, they included self-righteous anger and hurting or punishing others with our rightness. Now that one definitely feels familiar. Before program being right, that was important to me. When someone was wrong, it was really difficult for me not to point out that they were wrong. I remember early, when I was just outta school, I had a couple years in, someone took responsibility over my group. I was a technical person. So there literally is a right and wrong. And this person was saying incorrect things in a meeting. And I swear I thought my head was gonna explode. I couldn't say it at the time, I couldn't say it because I was just a little newbie and I knew it, and it's a big old meeting. At least I had that knowledge . But I was at such odds because I'm in a meeting and he's looking at me, but he's totally saying the wrong thing. And I was just like, oh my God, my brain is gonna be all over these walls. It worked out. But it was really challenging. And I think that's one of the reasons why is that I just, I got stuck in this rightness thing.

[00:31:22] And now, I don't have that issue anymore. One of the reasons that I have been able to let that go is because of the neutral responses. and I think every time I'm on a podcast episode, I talk about this one episode, the power versus force episode that you and Eric did talking about the neutral responses. Now I can just notice when I have that feeling like that's wrong and it doesn't matter. And I can use the words in a neutral way and move on.

[00:31:53] Spencer: Let me see. That was force and power, number 2 49 with Eric. It was a while ago, but still a good one. Huh?

[00:32:01] Kathy: Yeah. I can't even say how many times I've listened to that.

[00:32:04] Spencer: I'm sure you're familiar with the expression, would you rather be right or happy?

[00:32:09] Kathy: Yes.

[00:32:10] Spencer: To me, that's one of those pause expressions. I can pause and say, would I rather be right or happy? We said that to one of our sons once and he said, well, I'd rather be right because then I'll be happy. Okay. You don't get it kid, but you know you will.

[00:32:28] We've got one more bit of reading here. what's this one about?

[00:32:31] Kathy: Yeah. It's from page 54. and it's a summary of step six. We have to want the program out of a desire for a new life, not out of fear for the old. Positive thinking and behavior will be in charge if we are to make any character growth. Every fear encourages negative thinking that can destroy us. Guilt and shame come from the past. Just like fear. If those feelings are what drive us, we will never grow. The sixth and seventh steps let us examine our fears. We learn to take an inventory of each fear until we understand what causes it, then we will be able to find a way to work through it. How do we reduce our fears? How do we move into graceful living and growth towards spiritual expression? The answers lie in our ability to become humble and trust through the seventh step.

[00:33:26] Spencer: The first sentence speaks to me strongly. We have to want the program out of a desire for a new life, not out of fear for the old. Setting that perspective is so important. I'm pretty sure that I did not have that perspective the first time I encountered step six. It was like, man, I'm so messed up. I gotta fix things. I gotta ask God to fix things. Over the years I've come around to this idea that I'm not running away from the old me, I'm running towards a new me, striving towards a new me.

[00:34:05] Fear encourages negative thinking that can destroy us. Well, that's true. Guilt and shame come from the past. No kidding. So this is interesting. It's this guilt and shame come from the past, just like fear. I have often thought of fear as being a forward-looking emotion that, oh, something bad is gonna happen. But I guess I can fear that things will stay the way they used to be also. Is that what he's saying here?

[00:34:34] Kathy: I take this as fear comes from the past from the standpoint of there's a fear inventory, just like there's a resentment inventory in AA. That's the way that I did my four step actually. In that resentment and fear kind of spreadsheet inventory. I had so many fears that I had no awareness of at all, that were, childhood patterns that drove the things that I was doing at that time. And I had no knowledge at all that, that those were in charge.

[00:35:06] Spencer: Basically we went skipping and hopping through the step six section of the book, and we're about, halfway ish through the book then, because there's a step seven section that we're not gonna dig into today.

[00:35:21] Kathy: Right.

[00:35:22] Spencer: It's conversational and it's based on personal sharing and personal experience, just like in a meeting.

[00:35:31] Kathy: Yes.

[00:35:32] Spencer: I think that makes it easier to take it in.

[00:35:35] Kathy: Yeah, it's a different style than a lot of the Al-Anon literature, which I appreciated.

[00:35:40] Spencer: And I will say that even though this is not Al-Anon conference approved literature, I know a bunch of people that have been helped by it. Check it out if you're interested.

[00:35:51] Now we're gonna take a little break and then we'll come back and talk about our lives in recovery.

Song 1

[00:35:57] Spencer: I asked you to pick music.

[00:35:59] Kathy: I did.

[00:36:00] Spencer: What is your first selection?

[00:36:03] Kathy: I chose B 52's Song for a Future Generation. Some of the lyrics are, wanna be the first lady of infinity, wanna be the nicest guy on earth? Let's meet and have a baby now.

[00:36:13] B 50 twos, if you're not familiar with them, they're kind of wacky, and very fun. This line from this song jumped right out at me when I was reading this one section of the book. Hey, my name is Keith and I'm a Scorpio from Athens Ga. And I like to find the essence from within. The part of the book, was about examining ourselves and who we are and who we want to be. And that song just went whoop right into my head.

[00:36:39] It reminds me of the slogan, be a human being, not a human doing. I definitely have a tendency and have had a tendency to schedule myself and, be productive and, what I'm able to accomplish defines my value. And I don't do that anymore, but that's definitely my tendency. Since I've been unemployed before today for the last 10 months, it's not healthy to define myself as the work that I do because I didn't do any work. That's kind of a problem. So, who am I really? And what do I like and who do I want to be and what brings me joy? And how do I want to spend my remaining days on this planet? and even, how do I wanna spend my days when I'm not working? I can spend them being miserable and trying desperately and all wrapped up in trying to get a job where I can find some balance, right?

[00:37:31]

Our Lives in Recovery

[00:37:39] Spencer: In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery. How have we experienced recovery recently?

[00:37:47] I know I talked about this last time, before it was happening, and now it has happened. My wife and I went to see a lawyer yesterday where he had prepared our estate plan. To some extent it's about decluttering. It's about facing fears about the end of life. Making it very practical and structured. We set up a trust so that when we die, basically everything will go through the trust to our children. As far as I understand, the way we've got it set up, there should be no probate required. and having gone through that to some extent, I mean my parents both had wills, but it still took a long time to get through all of the stuff. Part of that had to do with all of the property being in my father's name, and he died first. and there were complications in transferring that property to my mother, for some of it, stuff like that. So not wanting to put that burden on my kids, and hopefully it will not be for a while, but we know it's going to happen, right? I'm not going to live forever. That's pretty much a given.

[00:39:01] We ended up with a couple inches of paper, lots of signatures and so on, because there's lots of different documents that they go along with this. New wills, our last wills were written when the kids were young and they had in there, who's gonna take care of the kids if we die before they reach their maturity? That's not relevant anymore. It had my sister as executor, that she doesn't wanna do that anymore. new wills, new power of attorney, medical power of attorney. Turns out, at least in Michigan, you have to have a separate one about who gets to make decisions at the funeral home. Can't just roll that in under the legal power of attorney for whatever. they don't want people arguing about like casket color and stuff, and that's what he said. Anyway, so there's all this stuff. And it could bring up lots of anxiety, but it didn't. I see that as, to some extent a result of becoming more honest with myself about my life, about my current situation in life, which is, you know, if I'm lucky, I got another maybe 25 years.

[00:40:05] If I'm really lucky. I might have 30. And I know for somebody who's just starting out in life, that seems like forever, but for me, it's a fraction of what I've done so far.I got fewer, many fewer years ahead of me than I have behind me. I'll just put it that way. That felt good. it was weird, but it felt good.

[00:40:22] And now I realize apparently I should be getting a fireproof document storage container to keep all this paper in. Because they don't recommend that you put these things in a place like a safe deposit box, because then your heirs or whatever can't get at it easily. And I'm like, oh. 'cause I think our previous wills are in a safe deposit box. So that's a thing that's happening.

[00:40:46] I gave a first step lead at one of my meetings. The first day of the month in that meeting is somebody talking about their experience with the first step, which basically is a short version of what it was like, what happened, and what it's like now. We get 20 minutes. I guess I'm at the point in my recovery where I kind of just wing it. I think this gets back to, what you said, pray for help to participate in the meeting in a way that helps at least one person. And not worry about did I say the right thing? Inevitably whatever I'm sharing in a meeting, afterwards, I'm like, oh, I didn't say this thing I was gonna say.

[00:41:28] And then I get feedback like I got from my friend who said, I'm really glad you said what you did, because it was totally applicable to my life right now. I just, I have to let go of, am I gonna say the right thing. Having confidence that my higher power will lead me to say the thing that needs to be said or some things that need to be said.

[00:41:49] So with that, I think I will pass. How about you? How are you experiencing recovery recently? Besides getting a job or maybe including getting a job?

[00:41:59] Kathy: yes. Being patient while I was looking for a job. One way that I have been applying the program tools to my life is to not get desperate, or all agitated and anxious and be discerning. Like when I'm applying for jobs, a lot of them are not remote anymore in the area where I work. So, a lot of them have long commutes, and do I really wanna live like that? Yeah. The answer's no. No. So really thinking about taking care of myself. And, what is that gonna look like if I do get a job like that?

[00:42:35] So really trying to be authentic to what's gonna be helpful for me in these different job opportunities. And then start to get creative in the way that I'm reaching out and looking for jobs as well. I'm kind of like on the fence between introvert and extrovert. I'm not a great network person. but just,be willing to ask for help,and talk to people, and be okay in where I am and not take it that it's a negative definition of who I am because I'm not working. Letting go of that piece. I'd say that's what's coming to mind right now.

Upcoming

[00:43:09] Spencer: Looking forward in the podcast, we have started a series of episodes on the Al-Anon traditions. We've done tradition one, so we'll have tradition two coming up. Tradition two is, for our group purpose, there is, but one authority, a loving God as he may express himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern.

[00:43:32] And we'll be looking at not only how does this apply in Al-Anon in meetings. But also how do we use this in our relationships with other people in our lives? We welcome your thoughts. You can join our conversation. Please leave a voicemail or send us an email with your feedback or your questions.

[00:43:54] And Kathy, how can people do that?

[00:43:57] Kathy: You can send a voice memo or email to feedback at the recovery dot show, or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 7 3 4 7 0 7 8 7 9 5. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer. We'd love to hear from you, share your experience, strength, and hope, or any questions about today's topic of Drop the Rock, or any of our upcoming topics, including tradition two. If you have a topic you'd like us to talk about, let us know.

[00:44:30] If you would like advance notice for some of our topics so that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback at the recovery dot show. Put email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.

[00:44:44] Spencer, where can our listeners find out more about the recovery show?

[00:44:48] Spencer: That is our website, which is the recovery dot show where we have all the information about the show, including notes for each episode. And those notes include, links to the book that we read from. Videos for the music that Kathy chose, and also there on the website are links to some other recovery podcasts and websites that we like.

Song 2

[00:45:13] Spencer: What is the second song you chose?

[00:45:16] Kathy: The second song is Sweet Surrender by John Denver. Some of the lyrics are, there's nothing behind me and nothing that ties me to something that might have been true yesterday. Tomorrow is open. Right now, it seems to be more than enough just to be here today and I don't know what the future is holding in store. I don't know where I'm going. I'm not sure where I've been. There's a spirit that guides me, a light that shines for me. My life is worth the living. I don't need to see the end.

[00:45:45]

Listener Feedback

[00:45:53] Spencer: Before we hear from you, I have a brief announcement. I was a guest on the podcast Fragmented to Whole, episode three 40. That's with Barb, who was my guest on episode 4 48 of the Recovery Show, talking about boundaries. I will put a link to the episode of Fragmented to Whole in the show notes at the recovery dot show slash 4 4 9.

[00:46:20] Dara writes, hi there. First off, I just wanna tell you how much I enjoy your podcast. I get so much out of them. So many thanks for what you do. I know I listened to an episode where you went through the promises of Al-Anon, which are sort of buried in the literature as opposed to in AA. I even remember where I was walking while I was listening to it.

[00:46:41] It was a sunny day and I was walking on a gorgeous path along a river, feeling very connected. But for the life of me, I can't seem to find which podcast that was. Any chance you could point me in the right direction? I want to share it with an Al Pal who has been going on a scavenger hunt through the literature, trying to compile her own list of promises.

[00:47:00] Thank you so much in advance. Best Dara in Delaware.

[00:47:03] Sometime back, I started a series on the promises, or as others call them, the gifts, but it didn't get very far. There are three episodes in that series, Joy, Fulfillment, and Wonder Number 1 44, Worthy of Love, number 1 48, Seeing Clearly Number 1 57.

[00:47:24] If you wanna get directly to that list, you can go to the recovery dot show slash tag slash gift. I wrote back to Dara and she writes back, says, Awesome, thank you so much. I believe Awareness and Acceptance three 80 discusses some as well. So thanks for finding that, Dara, and we should come back to those at some point.

[00:47:49] MJ left a voicemail.

[00:47:52] Hi Spencer. My name is MJ. I am calling to say thank you for the most recent episode on boundaries. I am a big fan of the show and actually the reason that I found your show about a year and a half ago in the first place was because I had been searching for more information around boundaries.

[00:48:18] It all felt pretty full circle when I saw this past week's episode was on boundaries, especially because the boundary I recently had to set was around vaping in my home. So I was really struck by you and Barb talking about having to set boundaries around smoking in one's home, because I feel like this is kind of the 2026 equivalent. So I wanted to just say thank you for talking about the difficulties in the emotional sort of challenge with setting boundaries.

[00:48:59] I've been sort of thinking about it like an iceberg. Like we do all of this emotional work which is underneath the surface. And then the boundary is just the tip of the iceberg. Typically other people just see that, that little bit of ice on the surface and may not know, ever know about all the work that we had below.

[00:49:17] I just wanna say thank you.

[00:49:18] Thank you. Thank you for that MJ, and thank you for that image of boundaries as the tip of an iceberg built on a foundation of program work. Thanks.

[00:49:30] Jennifer wrote, hi there. Is there a podcast on the subject of narcissism? Thank you.

[00:49:37] I responded, there is no episode that is directly about narcissism or living with narcissism or however you wanna frame that. There are some episodes that speak about narcissistic behavior and I found these, there may be others.

[00:49:53] Number 4 28, Separating From Dysfunction. Number 4 27, When the Behavior is Too Much for Most Of Us. And number 3 56, Domestic Violence and Other Unacceptable Behavior. That episode doesn't directly address narcissism, but I think has some experience that is also relevant.

[00:50:15] And that is it for your feedback in this episode.

Thank you, Kathy

[00:50:21] Spencer: Kathy, thank you for joining me today for our conversation on the book Drop the Rock and about step six and seven deadly defects and all kinds of stuff.

[00:50:32] Kathy: very welcome. I enjoyed it.

Song 3

[00:50:34] Spencer: And we're gonna finish with your third song selection.

[00:50:38] Kathy: The last song is Caught in the Middle by Paramore, which you can listen to at the recovery dot show slash 4 4 9. And the lyrics are, I'm just a little bit caught in the middle. I try to keep going, but it's not that simple. I think I'm a little bit caught in the middle. Gotta keep going. Or they'll call me a quitter. Yeah, I'm caught in the middle. No, I don't need no help. I can sabotage me by myself. I don't need no one else. I can sabotage me by myself. I don't need no help. I can sabotage me by myself.

[00:51:11] That made me really laugh because I was quite good sabotaging myself. And so this is like the defects as they are in full swing.

[00:51:20]

Outro

[00:51:25] Spencer: Thank you for listening and please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you're facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding, love and peace grow in you one day at a time.

[00:51:43]