Intro

[00:00:01] Spencer: How does unity support personal progress?

[00:00:04] Welcome to episode 444 of the Recovery Show, episode 4, 4 4. This episode is brought to you by Allison, Ann and Chris. They used the donation button on our website. Thank you, Allison, Ann and Chris for your generous contributions. This episode is for you.

[00:00:22] We are friends and family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction, understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:41] Patrick B: Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program. During this show, we will share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly, those are the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you will find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:01:02] Spencer: My name is Spencer. I am your host today, and joining me today is Patrick. Welcome back to the Recovery Show, Patrick. We're doing this in a more normal for the show fashion than the last one we did on our cruise ship. welcome.

[00:01:15] Patrick B: Thank you. Thank you, Spencer. Thank you for having me back.

The Traditions

[00:01:19] Spencer: Well, it was your idea, so here we go. You said to me, well, you did the steps. Now we should do the traditions. And I was like, yeah, it's been 11 years since I did the traditions last. We should do the traditions again.

[00:01:32] We're gonna be reading from the book how Al-Anon works. We're gonna read the beginning of chapter 16, which is titled 12 Traditions, and then we'll read the section in that chapter on Tradition one.

[00:01:45] We'll read a paragraph, comment on it, and we'll just proceed that way. I'll start, and then we'll alternate reading paragraphs.

[00:01:53] Patrick B: Okay.

[00:01:54] Spencer: So chapter 16, in my hardback edition from 1995 starts on page 1 0 6. your page numbers may differ if you have a more recent version of How Al-Anon Works, because there have been some changes in the newer edition.

[00:02:10] Chapter 16, the 12 Traditions, subtitled guidelines for working, living, and growing together.

[00:02:17] In an alcoholic environment, it is difficult to know what is expected. Rules are often unspoken, but rigidly enforced, and those rules are likely to change at any moment without warning. At the whim of the alcoholic, the result is an atmosphere of anxious confusion. We struggle to follow these impossible rules in order to please the alcoholic, or at least to keep the peace, but when we can't keep pace with the sudden unannounced changes, we fail. Thus, no matter how hard we try, we are always in the wrong, always subject to criticism.

[00:02:48] Anything come up for you in this paragraph?

[00:02:51] Patrick B: Growing up I was raised not by an alcoholic, but somebody who had been deeply affected by alcoholism and they were a perfectionist. So yes, I was always subject to criticism and I felt likeI was always looking, I was told that I could have done it better and everything always could have been done better.

[00:03:16] Spencer: The first sentence speaks to me. It is difficult to know what is expected. The environment that I experienced when active alcoholism was in my home here. The thing about rules and stuff. I don't recall feeling that. Doesn't mean it wasn't happening, but definitely what kind of things could happen and what kind of responses might come out. Definitely depended on the alcoholic and how much, or when she'd been drinking.

[00:03:44] Can you read the next paragraph?

[00:03:46] Patrick B: Sure. That's why many of us are relieved to learn that no one in Al-Anon is standing over us, rule book in hand, waiting for errors. No one will tell us to leave if we don't work the program correctly, if we say the wrong thing or make the wrong decision. Al-Anon doesn't work that way.

[00:04:05] Spencer: Okay. This one, now I'm gonna go back and think about paragraph one again because this one. My father, who as far as I knew, there was no alcoholism on his side of the family, he very definitely had the right way to do things.

[00:04:21] Patrick B: I think growing up as a child, that was just the way things were.

[00:04:25] Spencer: I was talking to my sister, years later when we were both adults, and she asked me if I had been afraid of him. And I don't recall that, but apparently she was. I don't know if it came out differently on me as first born than it did on her, as last born and also a girl, or what, or maybe it's just her personality versus my personality. Who knows?

[00:04:52] But where I really noticed this was years later as an adult going back and visiting them in their home. And trying to load the dishwasher. He had his way of loading the dishwasher. And if you didn't do it his way, then he would correct you. It got to the point where I would say, now the bowls go here, right? Just to short circuit that whole thing. There definitely was a right way to do things and presumably a wrong way. , it's good to know that in Al-Anon there is no right or wrong way.

[00:05:27] Patrick B: This was one of the areas that I found when I first came into Al-Anon that made me question if I had been brought up in an alcoholic home, because I knew that there was a right way to load the dishwasher. And I knew that things had to be put in the right way, or else they just wouldn't be clean. I heard somebody share just what you shared, and I'm going, oh, really? That means that maybe I have been affected. Yeah.

[00:05:59] Spencer: And there was an anger thing that would come out in him. If he was trying to get us to do something together with him, and we weren't doing it the way he wanted to. yeah. Now I'm going back and I can relate a little bit more in paragraph one. I think the difference is his rules didn't change, we just didn't always know what they were.

[00:06:16] Okay, next paragraph. The big surprise for most of us is that this non-judgmental approach creates a peaceful, consistent organization. Nobody takes over and tells everyone else what to do. Yet the Al-Anon message continues to be conveyed, undiluted, in meeting after meeting, year after year, all over the world. The 12 traditions make this possible.

[00:06:40] The meeting that I started coming to when I first came to Al-Anon, I don't know if it was tradition focused, but they observed the traditions. At the beginning of every meeting, we would read the 12 steps. And then we would read the tradition of the month, including the text from How Al-Anon Works. This meeting was founded around the book, How Al-Anon Works. In the first year, I heard all 12 traditions four times a month, four or five times a month. I don't know when I started actually thinking about what that meant, though, but things seem to work.

[00:07:17] Patrick B: Any thoughts on this from you?

[00:07:19] I too tended to go to meetings that held traditions very highly. I have found out over the years that meetings that don't follow the traditions, a lot of times I find don't have a lot of experience, strength, and hope that I could use. I have heard it said there's no such thing as a bad meeting.But there are meetings that I don't take away anything and choose not to return to because of that. It is a nonjudgmental approach. It creates a peaceful, consistent organization. Nobody takes over and tells everyone else what to do. In a tradition led meeting, no one takes over. The meetings continue to carry the message of hope.

[00:08:12] There's not rules, there are suggestions. The traditions, in the service manual says that these are only suggestions. But that the, unity of Al-Anon is so important that we do follow them.

[00:08:30] Spencer: You mentioned the service manual, which I really only started reading in the service manual, I guess it was like three years ago when I became a group rep for one of my meetings and then was attending these district and area meetings and suddenly the things in the service manual started to make more sense. But now I'm thinking it might be interesting to, to pull some stuff from the service manual and have some, episodes based on that as well. ,

[00:08:56] Patrick B: Can I read the part that I love?

[00:08:58] Spencer: Yes, please.

[00:08:59] Patrick B: The traditions evolved from the experience of AA groups in trying to solve their problems of living and working together. By the way, in preparing for, a speech that I did on Tradition one, I went back and read some of the documents from AA of what they went through before they finally hashed out the traditions, and it was bad. The traditions evolved from the experience of AA groups and trying to solve their problems of living and working together. Al-Anon adopted these group guidelines and over the years has found them sound and wise. Although they only suggestions, al-Anon unity and perhaps even its survival are dependent upon adherence to these principles. I really love the way they put that, that these are so important that our survival may depend upon adherence to them.

[00:09:50] Spencer: I would say the service manual is probably the appropriate place to put that emphasis on it, because it's addressed at people who are trying to make Al-Anon work .

[00:10:00] Why don't you read the next paragraph here.

[00:10:02] Patrick B: Sure. The traditions are a set of guidelines that hold our program together. They advise us on how to avoid involving ourselves in anything that might interfere with our common interest. And they help us remain focused on our purpose. They suggest ways to make group decisions that are in the best interest of all concerned and provide a structure that is based on spiritual principles. They keep the Al-Anon message consistent, unaltered by the latest trend in self-help books, therapies, talk shows or philosophies.

[00:10:39] Spencer: Amen.

[00:10:41] Patrick B: I like that it's based on spiritual principles. I think somebody is quoted by Lois at one time that Al-Anon does not have a spiritual component, it is all spiritual. The traditions suggests ways to make group decisions that are in the best interest of all concerned and provides a structure that is based on spiritual principles.

[00:11:07] Spencer: There's some words and phrases in here that, I think will show up again as we work our way through the traditions, and also into the concepts of service, which another friend of mine said, after you do the traditions, then you know, you should go do the concepts, right? Which I also did in 2015. They help us understand and learn how to work with other people, how to live with other people, how to work together with other people.

[00:11:35] So the phrases that I picked out here are common interests and purpose. The word purpose or aim, I think comes up at least a couple times in the traditions. Common welfare comes up in the one we're gonna talk about today. They're about helping us to stay focused on what does tradition five say, to help families of alcoholics, right?

[00:12:04] That's why Al-Anon is here. It's not about the latest trend.

[00:12:09] Okay. Many of us have never learned how to get along harmoniously with others. We don't know how healthy families operate. We are surprised, but grateful to find that these spiritual guidelines can also help in our personal lives, just as they can provide unity within our meetings. They can help us have healthier, more positive relationships.

[00:12:30] There's another book, reaching for Personal Freedom. Some people call it the Green Book. Some people call it the book with the tree on the cover, or the tree book, whatever. It's a workbook. For each of the 12 steps, 12 traditions and 12 concepts. It has readings from personal shares and then questions following each of those readings, focusing on how this particular principle, step, tradition, or concept can apply in our personal lives, which is why the word personal, I think, is in the title, Reaching for Personal Freedom.and these things that seem dry about how Al-Anon meetings work and how the governance of Al-Anon functions actually have great application in the rest of our lives.

[00:13:19] Patrick B: I attend a men's meeting on Saturday morning. And every first Saturday of the month, they do the meeting on that tradition of the month. It is one of the best meetings because when you're going around a room and you got 18-25 guys that are talking about a tradition, they're not talking about how that tradition applies to their meeting. They're talking about how that tradition applies in their personal life. And they are some of the richest meetings I've been to because we get into how this tradition can be applied. And like it says, that can help us have healthier, more positive relationships. I think that's a real benefit of, this effort to read the traditions and study the traditions.

[00:14:12] Spencer: Okay, you wanna read the next paragraph?

[00:14:14] Patrick B: Sure. The traditions work so well that the Al-Anon program has been there consistently to ease the suffering of families and friends of alcoholics since our beginning in 1951. The traditions are suggestions, not rules. We who have found serenity and a better way of life through recovery in Al-Anon turn, to the traditions for guidance because we want that opportunity for recovery to continue to be available to us and to those who come after us. We observe the traditions because they work. We refer to this as obedience to the unenforceable. Our survival as an organization depends on it. Therefore, our individual recovery is intimately bound to the guidance of the 12 traditions, as it is to the 12 steps, and it is in our best interest to make them an important part of our lives.

[00:15:12] All I can say is Amen.

[00:15:15] Spencer: Yeah. 1951. So next year is gonna be 75 years.

[00:15:23] Patrick B: Yes. There's a big party at Virginia Beach at the headquarters in April.

[00:15:28] Everybody's invited.

[00:15:29] Spencer: I was gonna say, are we all invited?

[00:15:31] Patrick B: Yeah.

[00:15:32] Spencer: Obedience to the unenforceable. I started hearing that phrase. I don't know when, but it percolated into my consciousness at some point.

[00:15:40] I think that hearkens back to really the second paragraph here. No one in Al-Anon is standing over his rule book in hand. Like these are, air quotes, rules. But there is no enforcement mechanism. We call them traditions, because it's things that we do so that our meetings and our lives and our relationships work well, healthier, more positive as it says there.

[00:16:06] Patrick B: Just preach it, brother.

[00:16:09] Spencer: This last paragraph here, the first sentence. One of my meetings, for years, whenever we had a newcomer, we would read step one from the book How Al-Anon works, and it has this paragraph that says something about as if we're lost in a desert not far away as a freshwater stream, this says it's as if we were shipwrecked on an uninhabited island.

[00:16:32] and I'm like, somebody likes that kind of metaphor, huh?

[00:16:37] It is as if we were shipwrecked on an uninhabited island and lacked the skills we needed to provide ourselves with food and shelter. If a set of instructions that guaranteed our survival descended from the sky, we would make it a high priority to follow those instructions. Likewise, for those of us whose lives have been torn apart by alcoholism, ensuring our survival as a fellowship by adhering to the traditions is just as crucial.

[00:17:02] As you said, when I've been to meetings that are following the traditions well, those tend to be the meetings I go back to. One of my meetings didn't fall apart, but definitely lost some people because of straying from one of the traditions.

[00:17:20]

Tradition One

[00:17:21] Spencer: That brings us to the first tradition. We're not gonna read all 12 of 'em, we're just gonna read one. Tradition one says, our common welfare should come first. Personal progress for the greatest number depends upon unity.

[00:17:34] There are some key words in here, like common welfare, personal progress, and unity. Those are the ones that, that sort of stand out for me. Why don't you read the first paragraph and then we'll talk.

[00:17:46] Patrick B: For many of us living with alcoholism was so disruptive and chaotic that it seemed to require ignoring our own needs or the needs of others. There was no middle ground or balance. There was certainly no unity.

[00:18:01] Spencer: yes and yes. ignoring our own needs or those of others. yeah, the needs of the alcoholic came first.

[00:18:10] I don't have anything more to say about that, except yes.

[00:18:14] Patrick B: me too.

[00:18:15] Spencer: When we first come to Al-Anon, no one else's problems seem as important or as pressing as our own. Our personal pain is all we are aware of and our personal progress is all that matters. But as we keep coming back, we begin to gain some perspective on our troubles, and we find that in order to heal, we must concern ourselves with the needs of others.

[00:18:38] I think this paragraph for me captures well and that the next paragraph starts with, this may seem a contradiction. So I'm gonna be looking ahead a little bit here, butI came in and I was told this is a program for you. We're not gonna teach you how to fix your alcoholic. We're gonna show you how we got better. It's all about focus on yourself, right?

[00:18:58] Here's the thing. I am a recovering codependent, no question about that.

[00:19:05] Patrick B: I came into Al-Anon knowing that it was my job to fix everybody else in the world.

[00:19:11] Spencer: And when Al-Anon said to me, no, you need to focus on yourself. You need to find recovery for yourself, and stop trying to fix other people.

[00:19:24] I heard that effectively, but now it's telling me I need to consider other people's needs, as well. Looking back with perspective of some years in recovery, I think the key word there is needs. Because, what I spent a lot of time and effort doing, was trying to support what I perceived as the needs and desires of other people, and it might not have been their actual needs.

[00:19:59] Patrick B: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:00] Spencer: I've told this story many times about having to fly out to Arizona, to get my son out of psych ward and provide for him what he could not provide for himself while he got himself back on his feet. And to not do for him those things that he could and needed to do for him himself. I don't know what that would've looked like without 10 years of Al-Anon under my belt before I did that. But I was able to fairly clearly separate the things that he needed, that he couldn't do, like provide shelter, from the things that he needed, but that were not mine to do, like get readmitted to school.

[00:20:36] I couldn't do that. They wouldn't let me, even if I tried, they wouldn't let me. Being able to gain that clarity ofwhat is actually mine to do and what is not mine to do. That's the distinction that I had to develop here. And it takes a while.

[00:20:52] Patrick B: When I came into Al-Anon, I was in a lot of personal pain. And, a lot of that was because I felt like it was my job to make sure that my wife and myself were happy. And I actually told her that . I said, we're gonna be happy because, it's gonna be my job to make you happy. When I make you happy, I'll be happy. how did that work out for me?

[00:21:19] Spencer: I don't know. How did that work out for you?

[00:21:21] Patrick B: about killed me when I came in to Al-Anon, and I learned, as we keep coming back, we begin to gain some perspective on our troubles. I realize and was told and learned, I can't make anybody happy. I can only focus on myself.And we find that in order to heal, we must concern ourselves with the needs of others, but not necessarily the wants of others. Of course now from her perspective, she was not happy that I was no longer trying to make her happy. She said, you're being very selfish. And I said, yes, I could see how, from your perspective, that looks like I'm being selfish, but what I'm actually doing is looking after myself and you can look after yourself.

[00:22:13] In fact, my first sponsor told me, he says, Patrick, things are gonna get rougher before they get better. Just hang in there and they will get better. And I tell all my sponsees now that, okay, you're starting and it's going to get worse before it gets better, but hang in there. It will get better. And it did.

[00:22:35] Spencer: My situation, one way of looking at it is yes, it got worse. It got worse because her disease continued to progress and it got better because I was working my program. There was a pink cloud period, where she was sober for several months and I was working my program and everything was wonderful. And then there was relapse,and it got worse.

[00:23:02] So, I don't think I went through that phase where I was changing the way in which I interacted with her and she was responding to that change because too much other change was happening at the same time. That was my experience.

[00:23:18] I think you get the next paragraph.

[00:23:20] Patrick B: This may seem a contradiction since so much of our program is dedicated to learning how to focus on ourselves rather than on the alcoholics in our lives. But we do not exist in a vacuum and in the long run, we cannot heal by cutting ourselves off from others or by treating their needs as unimportant. Although our own wellbeing must be our top priority, there is nothing healthy or spiritual about complete self-absorption. In Al-Anon, we seek a balance because it is essential that we learn to interact with other people in healthy way. The needs and concerns of others merit our attention. Our common welfare becomes a primary goal, assuring that we treat ourselves and those around us as equals. As we learn to treat others with respect and earn their respect, we begin to let go of an us versus them mentality and understand what unity means.

[00:24:22] Spencer: I already talked some about this contradiction of working on ourselves and cutting ourselves off from others. I have many examples, but I'm gonna talk about one thing where unity in the family relationship has become more evident, where I've gotten better at it.

[00:24:43] When we were traveling, we're driving on the highway. I would decide it's time for a meal and we're gonna stop here. And my wife would say,what's going on? Why are we stopping here? and there would be at least some friction. And then we'd have our lunch or whatever, but,I got negative feedback, let me put it that way.

[00:25:04] And I realized, yeah, I'm being what self-absorbed, self-centered here, and thinking that I know what's best for everybody in the car. So now, I'm starting to get hungry or we're starting to get to a point in the trip, if we've done this trip many times before where I know there's a good place to stop, say for lunch, or just to go to the bathroom for that matter.

[00:25:27] Oh, I don't need to pee, so I'll just keep going. Oh, that doesn't work so well. You know?and I'll say, Hey, how about we stop in 20 minutes for lunch at the Panera at the rest stop. To give one explicit example. And she's like, yeah, okay, that sounds good. And then maybe we actually, she gets on her phone and we can order ahead now because everybody's got an app to order with. and everything goes so much more smoothly. Whenever we're coming up to a rest area, I'm always like, does anybody need to stop? Instead of assuming because nobody spoke up, that nobody needs to stop. Right? It improves the unity of our family group while we're traveling.

[00:26:10] Patrick B: I like the sentence in here that says, our common welfare becomes a primary goal, assuring that we treat ourselves and those around us as equals.

[00:26:21] The common welfare means that I don't just look out only for myself. I mean, self-care is still job one. I still have to do self-care, but as long as the basics are taken care of for my self-care, I need to make sure that the common welfare is my primary goal and that I am considerate of the other people that I'm in relationship with, and what their needs may be.

[00:26:56] Spencer: absolutely. And there is more to say on this, but there's a paragraph coming up that, that goes into more detail. So I will, postpone anything more I was gonna say until then.

[00:27:07] Patrick B: Okay.

[00:27:08] Spencer: Next paragraph. This becomes true in our personal lives as well as our recovery program. In time, we see that our own recovery actually depends on the wellbeing of our group and of Al-Anon as a whole. For our own sake, we must consider our common welfare.

[00:27:23] It just emphasizes what we've been saying, also talking about personal lives. But I was just thinking if the Al-Anon meeting falls apart, because I don't like what's happening, other people don't like what's happening, then it's not there. And I need that to be there.

[00:27:41] So for our own sake, we wanna keep the group healthy, we wanna keep the family healthy. We wanna keep the workplace healthy. I don't know about you. I have worked in some unhealthy workplaces, and it is not pleasant, and it is not conducive to getting work done.

[00:27:57] Patrick B: Luckily I have missed those kind of workplaces.but yeah. for our own sake. So it is actually selfish of us to consider everybody else's needs.

[00:28:10] Spencer: There was a time in my workplace when there was some disunity. And gossip, you know, the kind of thing where several of you get together in a room and close the door and say, oh, what that person's doing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:28:23] I came to see how that was not only harmful to the unity of the workplace, but it was harmful to my own peace of mind. When I realized that I set a boundary for myself, that I will no longer engage in this behavior, I wasn't trying to tell other people what to do. But you know, that starts, I'm out of there. And that helped a lot.

[00:28:46] Patrick B: Al-Anon Declaration of Unity puts it this way. Each member of the fellowship is a significant part of a great circle of hope while respecting each other's individuality, our common welfare must come first. Our recovery depends upon our mutual need and an atmosphere of trust. And that's from a unanimous motion at the 1984 World Service Conference.

[00:29:12] Spencer: What I see here is, respecting each other's individuality, but also common welfare.Yes, each person is an individual, but we are also here together because of our common need to recover from the impact of somebody else's alcoholism on our lives.

[00:29:32] Okay. This means that our personal agenda may have to take a backseat from time to time. For example, we may be going through a traumatic experience and have an urgent need to talk about it at length in a meeting. But because we are not the only ones who need to discuss what is on our minds, it may be best for all concerned if we limit the length of our sharing, at least until the meeting is over. At that point, we are encouraged to find a more appropriate outlet, speaking at length with a sponsor or fellow Al-Anon member in order to express ourselves fully. This way, the wellbeing of the group is maintained and our personal needs are met.

[00:30:09] I really like that they give this specific example of how I might consider the common welfare of the group, and also seek personal recovery.

[00:30:22] Patrick B: I, for many years went to a home group. That would have typically 60, 70, 80 people in a room, and they chose to have a two minute timer. I've told people this story elsewhere that are not used to timers, that they go, oh gosh, I couldn't say what I,I don't see how you could have a sharing of only two minutes. what I learned in that meeting after years and years and years of attending that and respecting that two minute timer, that I can take a minute or two while somebody else is sharing and I can distill my thoughts and get it down to an essential point that I want to make, and I can make that point in two minutes or less, so that now when I go to a meeting with no timer. If somebody would time me, I would almost guarantee that my sharings are two minutes or less because I've learned to distill down what is my point I wanna make here on this topic. I've been to one meeting that call it a spiritual timer. They say, who would volunteer to be the spiritual timer tonight?

[00:31:38] I like meetings that have an actual timer. and of course there's grace given if somebody is really hurting and needs to go beyond the timer kind of thing. but it also helps provide some guardrails to people who tend to be very verbose.

[00:31:57] Spencer: Not to take anybody else's inventory, but yes,

[00:32:02] Patrick B: When members are unified, meetings thrive. By learning to consider others, we remember that we are part of the human race. No longer alone, we gain the privileges and the responsibilities of belonging. Our personal problems, opinions, desires, plans, and feelings are very important and we owe it to our group as well as to ourselves to express them when it is appropriate. But other people's interests are also important. We are part of a family, the Al-Anon family. And its vitality is in our hands.

[00:32:39] Spencer: That's not a small job,

[00:32:42] Patrick B: No.

[00:32:43] Spencer: but it also is because we only have to do our part.Its vitality is in our hands, but we are only doing our part. We're not in charge. We don't have to run the whole meeting. We don't have to make sure everybody follows the rules.We only have to try to follow the traditions and whatever rules that particular meeting may have, like a timer, to our best ability. And let go and let others do the same.

[00:33:15] Patrick B: I have to remind myself of that sometimes multiple times in a meeting when I see people going a little bit off the tracks, And I'm like, that's where they are in their recovery and I'm glad they're here. I like the sentence our personal problems, opinions, desires, plans, and feelings are very important and we owe it to our group and as well as to ourselves to express them when it is appropriate. One of the things I had to learn, I heard it said in a meeting one time, I have to know when to be angry at the appropriate time, in the appropriate amount, against the appropriate person, and not bottle it up where it comes out inappropriate. So I have to learn to express them when it is appropriate.

[00:34:05] Spencer: A little off track here, but related, I've been listening to tapes from the AA international convention. At least some of the Al-Anon workshops were taped. The podcast slash website on which I listen to these, called Recovery Radio Network, there is a link to that, on the website at The Recovery dot Show, has been publishing, things from the International, recently. And the one that I listened to most recently was on the Three Obstacles to Success in Al-Anon. Which are not directly addressed in the traditions. But I think it's one of the suggested readings that you can use at the beginning of a meeting, that's in the service manual. They are discussions of religion, gossip, and dominance. They put some boundaries around this word appropriate that shows up in this particular paragraph.

[00:35:00] If I was new and I was reading this and say, appropriate, when is it appropriate? I don't know. Maybe I should talk to my sponsor. Wait, do I have a sponsor?

[00:35:09] Patrick B: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:11] Spencer: The traditions, subtitled guidelines for working, living, and growing together. That doesn't say. Anything about Al-Anon meetings, working, living, and growing.

[00:35:22] You know, that's really one of our goals. We may not be conscious of it, we may not think about it explicitly, but why are we in Al-Anon? We're in Al-Anon because our lives are affected by somebody else's drinking, et cetera. But what do we hope to get from it since we're not gonna get the alcoholic sober. We wanna improve our lives. And if we have some guidelines for doing that, I think, it's good to pay attention.

[00:35:50] Patrick B: I agree.

[00:35:52] Spencer: We'll take a short break and then we'll continue with our lives in recovery, where we talk about how recovery works in our daily lives.

Song 1

[00:36:00] Spencer: I asked you to bring music and you did. So why don't you tell us about your first song?

[00:36:05] Patrick B: My first song is by the Rolling Stones, and the title is You Can't Always Get What You Want. And the chorus is in there that says you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find you get what you need. And I thought that was appropriate for. This discussion of we might not get what we want out of a group conscience. And I have been in group consciences when I was on the side that didn't get what they want, but I have learned that to trust that the group is going to make the right decision, and if they make the wrong decision that higher power seems to come back around not too long later and says, you know what? We don't have to stay with the decision we made.

[00:36:59] We can always make a new decision. So you might not get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find you get what you need.

[00:37:11]

Our Lives in Recovery

[00:37:19] Spencer: In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery. How have we experienced recovery recently?

[00:37:26] Patrick B: I just got back from yet another cruise. And usually when I go on a cruise, every cruise has a time set aside for friends of Bill W meetings, and they usually have a little room set aside. And most of the time I have gone, there's been nobody there. But on this cruise, we had five and six people that showed up consistently. And so we had a friends of Bill W It was not a AA meeting per se, because it was not an official Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, but it was friends of Bill and I got to participate as an equal. Which is a new experience for me to be a equal with alcoholics. They talked a lot about their disease, and I got to talk about my disease and my recovery. And I found that they really appreciated the experience, strength, and hope that I could bring from my perspective.

[00:38:31] It was really a good experience to be there. It was every day. It was at three o'clock. It was at one of the restaurants that wasn't being used at that time. We had a consistent core group that met every day. And it was really good. I really appreciated it. And,I felt accepted and valued that what I could bring that, uh.and whenever you're with a new group, they haven't heard your stories yet, so I got to rehash some of my favorite stories and they liked that too, so yeah, it was good.

[00:39:09] Spencer: I'm gonna respond a little bit here because I have not had that experience. I almost did once. It was a meeting on Christmas Day. It was a location where there was an AA meeting and an Al-Anon meeting in adjacent rooms. We actually had to walk through the AA meeting to get to the Al-Anon meeting room.which, at first was a little uncomfortable.

[00:39:34] Patrick B: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:35] Spencer: Both my wife and I showed up and, two or three aas showed up and there were no other Al-Anon. And I went and I sat in the Al-Anon room all by myself. I probably picked up a daily reader to have something to think about. And then one of the guys from the AA meeting stuck his head in and says, Hey, you, you can come join us. We had a little group conscious that decided to invite you in.

[00:39:57] Patrick B: How cool.

[00:39:58] Spencer: and they were gonna talk about, I think step 11, which has nothing to do with alcoholism directly. So, you know, good. And then two other Al-Anon showed up. So then we went and had our Al-Anon meeting. So I almost got to do that.

[00:40:10] One of the meetings that I attend regularly, often has one or more AA members show up on accident.

[00:40:19] Patrick B: There used to be a big AA meeting at the same time in the same location, and that meeting somehow just died over COVID. Never came back. Somebody came in says, I'm coming back and where's the meeting? He used to go to that meeting and then he took a road trip, as they might say, and, and he was coming back. I said,the AA meeting's not here. you're welcome to stay for the Al-Anon meeting if you want to, and. So I've had the opportunity to see, particularly with people who've been in AA for a while, the similarities betweenthe programs, how they overlap.what bugs me a little bit, only a little bit, is when at the end of the meeting, the AA person who, first time in an Al-Anon meeting, and they're like, wow, now I see how I affected my family.

[00:41:11] Spencer: I'm like, okay,you got something from the meeting, and maybe that's a good thing, right?

[00:41:16] Patrick B: One time, this is long enough ago, I was in a meeting and we had a newcomer, I think it was a couple, they were there because their teenage child was out there somewhere and they were just distraught and angry and all those things that, that parents get when they can't control their kids' alcohol or drug use. And one of the dual program members of the meeting spoke up and said, I was that kid.

[00:41:46] Spencer: I think the person who spoke up was hoping that the parents could get a little bit of understanding of. What's happening with their kid, from the perspective of somebody who had been there and also was no longer there.

[00:42:01] I definitely got that from Open AA meetings. For about the first, I think three years I was in Al-Anon. I was regularly going to a open AA meeting. Not every week, but frequently. I know I've been to over a hundred easily. And then of course, with the availability of speaker tapes online now, it's so many, I don't know. That really helped me to understand and to have some compassion and empathy for what my loved one was going through. Anyway, but what's going on in my life right now? you know this saying, be careful what you wish for. You might get it.

[00:42:39] Patrick B: oh.

[00:42:40] Spencer: yeah, it was good. It is good.

[00:42:42] But, you know, I've been saying on the podcast for a while. the only way that really motivates me to create new episodes of the podcast if somebody wants to do it with me. it's a lot more dynamic when I have a co-host like you.And, this month, I have gotten so many. Let me just take a quick look here. This month, I have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 people who signed up to record this month and already got somebody in December. It's wonderful. I have this richness of contentand now I have to follow through. I know that my higher power has given me a message here about procrastination maybe, and perfectionism. Those being the things that can keep me from following through and actually producing these episodes.

[00:43:37] Patrick B: Having done production, I know how many hours after the fact after the recording, is involved, and that's a lot of work. And I can say one thing about experience, strength, and hope of being retired. Procrastination and laziness are a bane of being retired. Not having a time clock to have to show up for, that's a challenge.

[00:44:08] Spencer: It's obviously time for me to apply some of my recovery tools to this, because I'm gonna have this huge backlog and I don't want to have a huge backlog. It's good to have some backlog, but I don't want to have a huge backlog Anyway, so that's, yeah, that's what's going on with me right now.and where I'm trying to use my recovery principles.

[00:44:25] I know that this upcoming trip, there are potentials for triggering actions in some of the people we'll be seeing. I need to be aware of that and prepared for it.

Upcoming

[00:44:35] Spencer: Speaking of what's coming up in the podcast. One of the topics that's coming up is, grief after the Alcoholic is no longer in your life.

[00:44:46] That, I think, promises to be an interesting conversation. I haven't really thought too much about it yet. But I can see where there could be some real mixed feelings with somebody who maybe died of consequences of alcoholism. Both grief and anger.

[00:45:03] We welcome your thoughts. You can join our conversation. Leave us a voicemail or send us an email with your feedback, your questions. And Patrick, how can people do that?

[00:45:14] Patrick B: You can send a voice memo or email to feedback at the recovery dot. Show, or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 7 3 4 7 0 7 8 7 9 5. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer.

[00:45:38] We'd love to hear from you. Share your experience, strength, and hope, or your questions about today's topic of tradition one or any upcoming topics, including grief after the alcoholic has died. If you have a topic you'd like us to talk about, let us know.

[00:45:55] If you would like advanced notice for some of our topics so that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback at the recovery dot show. Put email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.

[00:46:12] Spencer, where can our listeners find out more about the recovery show?

[00:46:17] Spencer: Our website is therecovery.show. There's some other aliases that work as well. Or, my experience has been, if I type the Recovery Show into Google, it's the first hit. We have all the information about the show there. That's mostly notes for each episode, which there will be notes for this episode at the Recovery dot Show slash 4 4 4.There will be a link to the How Al-Anon Works book to buy it from Al-Anon, if you want to.That is available both in soft cover and electronic in multiple forms.

[00:46:51] There will be videos for the music that Patrick chose, and we also have there some links to other recovery podcasts and websites, including the Recovery Radio Network, which is every weekday, a speaker or a workshop, mostly AA and Al-Anon. There's a wealth of speaker talks there. If you find yourself just wanting some recovery and you've run out of 440 recovery show episodes, it's right there.

[00:47:21] I met the guy who runs that site when I was speaking at the Kentucky State Al-Anon convention. He lives in Kentucky, turns out. Who knew?

[00:47:31] Also, recently in the last. I don't know, dozen or so episodes. I've been starting to add transcripts to the show notes. They're in a little toggle thing. You can open it up and the transcripts are pretty long.but they're there.

Song 2

[00:47:46] Spencer: Patrick, what is the second song you chose?

[00:47:49] Patrick B: The second song I've chosen is another oldie but goldie. It is by Bill Withers and it was his big hit. Lean on Me. Some of the lyrics go, you can just call me, brother when you need a hand. We all need somebody to lean on. I just might have a problem that you'll understand. We all need somebody to lean on. Lean on me when you're not strong. I'll be your friend. I'll help you carry on.

[00:48:21] To me this is the essence of the program is that I share my experience, strength, and hope, and I hear your experience, strength, and hope, and we lean on each other.

[00:48:32]

Listener Feedback

[00:48:40] Spencer: Now it's time for some feedback.

[00:48:43] We have a voicemail from Pamela.

[00:48:46] Pamela: Hi Spencer, this is Pamela from California. I had left a long message about Al-Anon and ACA and I just listened to episode 4 28 and it explained how Heather was using the two programs together. That was very helpful and I realized that my ACA issue had nothing to do with the program itself per se. But combining it with Al-Anon would make a great difference because you have the love of oneself and then the loving parent as well. And I also realized that myissue with ACA, as I said, it had nothing per se to do with the program. It had to do with the fact that I needed to go to different meetings and have exposure to different people, because my sponsor had ghosted me.

[00:49:42] Anyway, I'm just saying this out loud. Thanks for everything. Bye, Spencer.

[00:49:47] Spencer: Thank you Pamela, for relating your increased understanding of ACA. That may help somebody else who's listening right now.

[00:49:57] I got a voicemail from Catherine

[00:50:00] Catherine: Hi Spencer, this is Catherine. I'm from Marin County in California by San Francisco . I've been listening to the podcast for a little over a year. It's been a really tumultuous year for me. I've been in Al-Anon for five years. And I wanted to offer to co-host an episode with you, on a, and I haven't gone through every episode, so I don't know if there has been one around, like when the idea of the miracle doesn't actually happen.

[00:50:30] For example, a lot of people's stories are their loved one ultimately did get sobriety, they're doing really well. My fiance actually died of his addiction, about eight months ago, after many years of battling on and off, in and out of rehab.

[00:50:46] When the idea of the miracles that are promised, you know, stick with the program and miracles will happen. Of course people have expectation of certain miracles and what they would be. When that doesn't happen and navigating grief and using Al-Anon for grief.

[00:51:01] Thank you so much.

[00:51:03] Spencer: Hey Catherine. Thank you for that suggestion. I know that there is a certain expectation of miracle in many people's minds . Which is that, yeah, my alcoholic's gonna get sober. That, as you know, doesn't always happen from your own experience. But, I think if we look at that question of what is a miracle? We can find miracles that are for us rather than for our loved one. A couple of miracles that I experienced were: Early in program removal of my rage, because that was never something I wanted to have. And I was never successful in removing it myself or even reducing it really. Another miracle that happened for me was finding serenity and peace of mind while my loved one was still drinking, while I was still living in the chaos of alcoholism. That was a true miracle for me.

[00:52:08] I think it's a wonderful topic for an episode. I probably would wanna reach out to the collective of the email list to get a variety of thoughts on what miracles people have experienced in Al-Anon, by sticking around. So thanks for that.

[00:52:28] We have coming up an episode on grief, but I think there are multiple experiences of grief and of living into, living through grief, and it would be also great to do another one. So thanks. Amy writes.

[00:52:46] I have been listening to your podcast, and I would love to hear a podcast about finding a sponsor and what sponsorship is all about. Part of me wants to choose a sponsor who is in the main meeting I attend because then she would hear my shares and know a lot more about me than if I chose someone who is in a different group.

[00:53:02] However, I'm scared to choose someone and find out that we're not a good fit for sponsorship. That's why I've considered finding a sponsor from another group that I attend more seldom. If it doesn't work out, I won't see them weekly.

[00:53:16] So I'd love to hear an episode on how to choose a sponsor, what to look for. I personally want someone who doesn't give direct advice, but asks good questions.

[00:53:24] I am also curious what sponsorship looks like. I don't have a lot of time to talk on the phone or meet up. What does it look like to have a sponsor? Do they help you walk through the steps? What if you're not ready to go through the steps? What does that time look like? Thank you, Amy,

[00:53:42] I have some quick thoughts here. But my first question that I would ask Amy and anybody else who's in this situation to consider, what do you want from a sponsor? Why are you looking for a sponsor? What do you expect to get from it?

[00:53:58] Here's some thoughts. What to look for. One advice that I've heard is to choose someone who quote has what you want. Are they working a solid program? Are they in a similar situation with respect to the alcoholic in their life? When they speak at a meeting, does it seem like they are speaking to your life? Maybe you don't know what you want, in which case, the other questions may be more relevant.

[00:54:23] I agree, I would not want a sponsor that gives unsolicited advice As a sponsor, I try to respond to requests for advice with questions that might help the other person find their answer. Or an answer. Or a thing to try. I think especially early in recovery, a sponsor who can give gentle direction is helpful. For example, I called my sponsor about the amount of ice cream my sober wife was eating. I was told that you said your piece to her. Now shut up.

[00:54:57] Well, maybe that's not so gentle, but it was to the point, and it wasn't really advice. It was, Hey, follow the program.

[00:55:04] What does sponsorship look like? I think that depends entirely on the two people in the sponsorship relationship. And it gets back to that question I asked of, what do you want?

[00:55:17] Are you looking for someone to guide you through the steps? Are you looking for someone you can call in crisis or confusion? Do you want someone who knows you and your situation, so you don't have to explain everything first, before asking a question.My personal approach to sponsorship briefly, if I'm going to be your sponsor, I will want you to work the steps because in my experience, that was where I found real healing. While we're working the steps, we really need to have regular meetings weekly or possibly every other week. But I wouldn't wanna go less frequently than that. But that's me.

[00:55:54] I did send out these questions to the email list and we'll see what we get in response and hopefully, we'll be putting together an episode on sponsorship. At least one. Thanks for writing and asking those questions and suggesting the topic.

[00:56:09] We got a review on Apple Podcasts titled Wonderful Al-Anon podcast. I really enjoy listening to this show. I'm so thankful for the authenticity and the Al-Anon foundation. The testimonies resonate so deeply, making me feel less alone, challenged, hopeful, and connected. Thank you. The person's handle is Holly Talley from the United States.

[00:56:33] Thank you all for writing or calling, and we'll be back in the next episode.

Thank you, Patrick

[00:56:39] Spencer: Patrick. I wanna thank you for joining me today. To talk about the traditions in general and talk about Tradition one, and also for suggesting that we do this.

[00:56:48] Patrick B: Oh, you're welcome, Spencer. I like this tradition. I like all the traditions. After you got done with the steps, I'm going, all right, now we get to do the traditions and talk about them. So thank you for having me on.

Song 3

[00:57:01] Spencer: You're gonna close this off Patrick, with one more song.

[00:57:04] Patrick B: My last song, sticking with the seventies, is The Who and the song is Join Together. The lyrics are, it's the singer, not the song that makes the music move along. I want you to join together with the band. This is the biggest band you'll find. It is deep as it is wide. Come on and join together with the band. And that's what the traditions do is they bind us together.

[00:57:31]

Outro

[00:57:36] Spencer: Thank you for listening. Please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them, too. If we did not talk about a problem you're facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding love and peace grow in you one day at a time.