Intro

[00:00:01] Spencer: How can the tools and principles of recovery help us when we are grieving?

[00:00:06] Welcome to episode 446 of the Recovery Show. This episode is brought to you by Julie, John, and Lauren. They used the donation button on our website. Thank you, Julie, John, and Lauren for your generous contributions. This episode is for you.

[00:00:22] We are friends and family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:41] Cliff: Before we begin, we'd like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program. During this show, we will share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person you gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope you will find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:01:00] Spencer: My name is Spencer. I am your host today. Joining me today is Cliff. Welcome to the Recovery Show, Cliff.

[00:01:06] Cliff: Thank you, Spencer. Good to be here.

[00:01:09] Spencer: I asked you to find a reading to open with and why don't you tell us what you chose?

Grief and Recovery

[00:01:14] Cliff: I chose the Al-Anon book, Opening our Hearts, transforming our Losses. There are two paragraphs on page 17. The section of the book is Grief as a Process, and it starts with giving ourselves time to grieve.

[00:01:29] The time each of us needs to grieve will vary from person to person. We may have been told that it takes a year to grieve the death of a loved one, only to find ourselves still in pain three years later. We don't need to set a deadline for our grief, and we don't have to accept anyone else's timeline. While one person may be able to apply the steps and find serenity in a matter of hours or minutes, for another, it may take months or even years. Chances are we will have to reapply the wisdom of the steps and slogans to our particular situation, not just once, but again and again. Just as each of us makes progress in Al-Anon in our own way and pace so too, will each of us approach grief differently.

[00:02:13] One member kept her husband's belongings in her garage for over a year after his death. Letting go of her urgency and allowing the belongings to stay in the garage were crucial to her grieving process. Her understanding of the program allowed her to keep his things for as long as she needed. After some time passed, she was able to make decisions about what to keep and what to donate. We do ourselves a great disservice when we compare our grief to anyone else's. While we gain hope from others, it helps to keep in mind that no two losses are alike and that no one has experienced our loss. We can trust that whatever time it takes for us to grieve will be exactly what we need.

[00:02:54] Spencer: That's a great reading.

[00:02:55] I'd like to start with you telling a little bit of your story, particularly as it relates to our conversation about grief in recovery.

[00:03:05] Cliff: Sure. I'll stay focused on the topic of the grief. my background in Al-Anon, I've been in program just shy of seven years. I came into the rooms really not understanding the disease at all. I always tell people. You know, Charlton Heston in Planet of the Apes he lands on this planet and is shocked to see gorillas riding on horses. That's what it feels like when you're dropped into this disease and you have no idea what you're doing and no idea how to deal with it.

[00:03:32] I think the grief process for me, when the alcoholism started to progressively get bad, was I had no idea what I was feeling was, I was grieving the loss of a dream.

[00:03:45] I was grieving the loss of a marriage. I was grieving the loss of a partner. The alcoholic in my life was amazing. She was the love of my life. She was, such a great person in the community. She had wonderful friends, she had a great job, and this disease came in and over time, transformed her into something unrecognizable.

[00:04:10] So the grief that I experienced was slowly seeing this person disappear. I had no idea that someone could die from drinking too much. That was just something I never even dreamed of. I said, someone's gonna drink too much. They're gonna get sick. They're gonna wake up the next morning with a bad headache. They're gonna have a hangover. They're gonna be sorry for what they did. Clean them up. Try to get them to understand that their behavior is destructive. And understand as a member of Al-Anon, that this disease is profoundly baffling and you will never be able to truly put reasoning to it.

[00:04:51] My background and how I was raised and what I do for my career was all about logic. It was all about problem solving. It was all about finding a solution for the problem. You know, decompose the problem down with small parts and figure out the little pieces and put 'em all back together again. That has no application whatsoever when you're dealing with active addiction. It is unreasonable. It is baffling. It is crazy.

[00:05:17] My wife had a relapse, after some sobriety, and it was no different than any other relapse at any other time during her struggle with this disease. And this was the one time where she drank enough that her body just shut down. It was like nothing I've ever experienced in my life. It's hard to describe what it's like to come downstairs and witness it. And it's like you're in a movie. Everything goes into slow motion. You start to do the CPR, you start to dial 9 1 1. While you're doing CPR, you try to,I thought in my heart of hearts, I really thought that I could control the situation. I thought I could bring her back. I finally realized when the paramedics came and told me that I could stop, it was only then in Al-Anon that I realized I was completely powerless over this. And that was profound for me to understand that.\

[00:06:21] Spencer: Wow, so this was very sudden.

[00:06:23] Cliff: it was very sudden, and she isolated herself from her friends and her family. The alcohol became the only thing that she lived for. And it was progressive. It didn't start that way. it took a good solid 10 years to reach that point, but it was progressive and it is a deadly disease.

[00:06:45] I have offered to my AA friends to speak at AA meetings and tell them what it's like to be a family member watching someone die like this. But I warned them. I said, I'm not gonna hold back. I'm gonna use language you may not like. I'm gonna say things that may offend some of you. But it's a deadly disease and you have to really be fearful of it, that it could take your life just with one evening that goes the wrong way.

[00:07:12] Spencer: I have a friend in the program whose husband got progressively more and more ill, and had a, I forget the name of it now, but basically, a brain thing where he was just acting crazily. Luckily, they were able to get him to treatment. He recovered from that, but he did end up having to have a liver transplant. You know, in some cases, the path towards the end is long, and more gradual than what you experienced. That could have happened to me, towards the end when my wife had lost everything except drink. Luckily her story did not end that way, but oh my God. Ugh. That was how long ago?

[00:07:56] Cliff: It's actually been a year and two weeks.

[00:07:58] I made a conscious decision at the anniversary of her death to not go to the cemetery. I booked a weekend away where I was going to hike a couple of mountains with a group. They had a daily meditation, they had yoga classes at night. It included meals. I had a private room and I decided to make my weekend about my recovery. And about turning the page on this incredible journey I've been on. And simply praying to my higher power for what's next.

[00:08:29] Spencer: Were you able to do that?

[00:08:31] Cliff: I think, I have stopped praying for things. I stopped using my higher power like an ATM machine, you know, put in prayer, get out results. My background and the way I was raised and the faith I was raised by, not only was that a part of our teaching, but it was expected, you know, the expectation of God.

[00:08:53] And then you come to Al-Anon and they said, you should have no expectations. And so I had to learn how to live my faith.If you were living with an active alcoholic, you're in the foxhole and the bullets in the shells are flying over your head. And if you can somehow turn to your higher power for that, you're really living your faith.

[00:09:14] I made a conscious decision to visit her a week before and do my normal, morning grieving like people normally do. But my higher power, the God I believe in has been putting me in situations and giving me things, to simply say it's time to move on.

[00:09:36] I am retiring in a few months. I'm putting my whole heart into Al-Anon. I tell people when I speak at anniversary meetings or I speak at topics, I'm saying, please share my name and phone number because I will travel and I will do what needs to be done to help people in this program and find recovery. You will find help just like the opening and closing of the Al-Anon meetings say. You will find help. And that's what I'm doing.

[00:10:03] Spencer: Taking your experience and putting it into service is a gift to the community, really. And probably a gift to yourself.

[00:10:13] Cliff: Yes. I think so. I know everyone looks for purpose in their life. Like what now? Like, why am I here on this earth? And I questioned God doing this. I've heard it meetings and a couple of people have been credited with the quote, that God will not put you through anything more than what you're capable of dealing with.I just wish he didn't have so much faith in me.

[00:10:36] Spencer: yeah.

[00:10:37] Cliff: I've heard that many times, and I've lived that and I've said, I've yelled, why did it have to end this way? Was this really the plan? But I have a God that is loving and wants me to live my life. And unfortunately, the higher power my wife had was alcohol. And it took over her life. It took over her brain, it took over her future. And had brought it to that point of no return.

[00:11:04] When I go to these open AA meetings and I speak to some of the folks there, only then am I reminded what a miracle they are. A person who is in full recovery, practicing the steps, going to AA or going to some recovery program, is a miracle. Because a lot of people don't make it.

[00:11:21] I have a wonderful sponsor. He has been there for me. My family's from New York and there's a saying, and I have to describe this to people that aren't from New York City. If you say to someone, this is a friend of mine, it means they're connected somehow with organized crime. There were more Al-Anon people at my wife's wake than family. My mother kept turning to me and saying, who are these people? And I would say to her, these are just some friends of mine. And her being from New York, she looked at me kind of like, weird. And she was like, friends of yours. 'cause she knows what the term means, you know? I'm like, yeah, they're literally friends of mine.

[00:11:57] You know, on everybody remembered the anniversary of her death. My phone kept dinging the whole day. I'm hiking through the mountains and I put it on silent and I could feel it buzzing in my pocket. And it was all my Al-Anon friends basically saying, how you doing today? Are you doing something for yourself? I sent them a picture of the lake I was walking along, and I said, I am taking care of myself, actually. It's a conscious decision I have made.

[00:12:21] Did it have to end this way? No. No. It didn't have to end this way, but the disease took over her life. And for me, now where I live my life, I need to find what comes next. And I need to put this experience into practice and talk to other people that have been grieving the loss of whatever is in their lives, and maybe a loss of a spouse of a child. And you cannot relate to someone more than someone who's been in a foxhole and has fought the battle like you have.

[00:12:52] It's a relationship that you just cannot replace with anything else.

[00:12:56] Spencer: Absolutely true. How has it changed in those 12 months, using the tools and principles of the program to move through, deal with your grief.

[00:13:10] Cliff: I'd say, the people in Al-Anon, it's a gentle program. If you're going off on a tangent, they will bring you back gently. I remember I couldn't go back to the meetings right away in person, in the first couple of months. So I went on Zoom and I simply said, I'm gonna stay off camera. I'm gonna stay off microphone. I'm just gonna listen. And then after a few weeks of that, I was able to open up and speak and take my microphone off mute. And after two months, I was able to turn a camera on, and have people see me. And then it took a few months, but I went to that first meeting in person. And of course the love in the room was incredible.

[00:13:48] But I knew that I was powerless over this. The journey my wife was on was completely and totally out of my control, and I needed to understand that. There is nothing I could have done to save her. There is nothing I could have done to stop that destination she was on. In the traditions we say give understanding and encouragement to the alcoholic. I gave her understanding, I gave her encouragement. I said, if you want to go somewhere, I will take you. Let's get in the car and go. if you want me to help you, if you want me to, bring you to an AA meeting or call your sponsor, let's go. Let's do it. I will not enable this disease any longer. I will not drive you to places because you can't drive. I will not go on a vacation and put yourself and myself in a situation where there's going to be addiction, there's gonna be alcohol served. It just wasn't anything I was agreeing to any longer. So I stepped away from a lot of things we did as a couple because it wasn't helping me and it wasn't helping her, and I wasn't doing it to control her. I knew that I had enough. And I needed to take care of myself.

[00:15:01] Spencer: Was there some grieving in that process?

[00:15:05] Cliff: Definitely. Definitely. There were family events I had to miss. There were explanations to my family, why isn't my wife with me? And I simply said that she's not ready to be around people that she's going to be verbally abusive to. It's really not necessary that I put my family through that, or anyone through that.

[00:15:27] I understood that she was in great pain. I understood that. I was given the understanding and the encouragement. I understood what she was going through, but it's hard to explain that understanding to someone not in program. They see this as a lack of control, a lack of character, a bad choice they're making. People outside the program, and I would say even say people in the program as well, we all fall into the trap that we think this is some defect of character or some defect of choice.

[00:15:56] Their brain is wired a certain way. We can't understand the alcoholic or addicted brain because we don't have it. There's a part of their brain that is just triggering and firing signals to say, I can remove your pain if you consume me. I will remove your pain and make you feel okay and normal, if you keep coming back to me. And we can't understand what that draw is because that's the addict's brain, that's the alcoholic brain. It's impossible for us to understand it. And clearly I can't explain it to people either.

[00:16:27] So I would go to events alone. I would go not at all. Or I would find an exit plan. And my sponsor would say to me, in the beginning of this, you have choices. And I would say to him, really? What are they? I would not know there was an alternative. I didn't think that there was a plan B, I didn't think I had the ability to leave the party or to go out to my car and take a break from it all, or not go at all. I really saw that as denying myself the experience of a group of people I wanted to be around. But you have to understand that you're in a situation where things can go from bad to worse fairly quickly. And you need to make choices. You need to make choices about where you want to be with your day, where you wanna be with your time, and sometimes you have to miss the wedding. You have to miss the birthday, you have to miss the anniversary, and it'll be okay.

[00:17:24] Spencer: How do you move from that understanding of the disease and of the consequences that you've outlined? How do you move from that understanding to acceptance? That this is what my life is like now.

[00:17:39] Cliff: We all in program berate ourselves for not being perfect in practicing the steps and traditions, and being the perfect Al-Anon person. And I simply say to people, you are powerless over the first thought. Allow yourself that first thought where, yes, I am angry, I'm frustrated, I'm anxious, I'm fearful. For every year, I'm in Al-Anon, I get one second of pause, one second of chance to make a difference and responding in a different way. It allows me to stop and say, that thought is an old thought. What am I gonna do now? What am I gonna do now? I have my sponsor to thank, I have the people in the Al-Anon program to thank, and I have the people in the rooms because they have given me wisdom of thinking a new way. I'm gonna make mistakes. I'm gonna go back to my old ways and I need to understand that by keep coming back is the only way I can stay reasonably sane through all of this.

[00:18:44] Spencer: I heard you talk about a boundary that I hadn't thought of, in my own situation, which is to not bring her because of the negative effect she would have onthe gathering.

[00:18:57] Cliff: Right

[00:18:57] Spencer: I don't think I had the clarity of thought to come to that idea, during the time when I was in program and my wife was still drinking. The only choice that I saw was don't go or bring her. So I wanted to highlight that, because I bet somebody's listening right now who hadn't thought of that, and they would be like, oh, I could do that?

[00:19:22] Cliff: Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:19:24] If it was her family, of course that would be strange. But, Thanksgiving with my sister cooking and my mom being there, and my mom's getting older, I want to cherish every day that she's on the earth. So why would I miss that? And I simply say, listen, I'm going. But you know, you have a problem controlling yourself. You have a problem with the drinking and not even drinking at that moment. You have a problem not being alcoholic in other things, whether it be food, opinions, knowing when to speak and not speak, knowing when something is offensive to someone. Just being completely clueless or just being so centered on what brings you pleasure to be smarter than everybody else in the room. That alcoholic behavior is unacceptable. So I made a conscious decision that I wasn't going to miss seeing my family for the holidays and the alcoholic in my life, while she didn't believe me at first, when I did it the first time.

[00:20:27] Then she understood I really meant it. So she said, I want to go to my family. I'm like, go. But you know, said, I can't drive. Who's gonna drive me? I got her phone. I put the Uber app on. I registered her credit card. I said, every group should be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions, tradition seven, your money, your time, your phone. Go get a driver. And she knew I was serious.

[00:20:56] You have to say it and do it. You can't just say it and not do it. It's not just losing credibility, but it's telling the alcoholic, they still have a reasonable amount of control over your emotions. They still have a way of manipulating you. You're communicating that in very subtle ways, and you're perpetuating their disease by doing that.

[00:21:20] Spencer: Okay. I was listening to a speaker recently. He was talking about his decision as to whether to leave his partner. He talked to his sponsor who said, first, are you ready to leave today? And I've heard that one before. You know, are you ready to leave today? No. Well then, don't leave today.

[00:21:41] Cliff: Right.

[00:21:41] Spencer: but then his sponsor went on to say, you know if you stay, it's gonna be hard, and if you leave, it's gonna be hard. And he said, that sounds pretty awful. But what that did for me was it told me that I have choices. Which I think he hadn't really consciously realized until that point, yes, you can make a choice. Doesn't mean you're going to like it, it doesn't mean it's gonna be easy, but you do have the freedom to make a choice.

[00:22:19] Cliff: Right. For me, and at least in this country, and the generation I was raised in, the husband was the provider. The leader, the head of the house, the person that basically took care of everybody. And it's hard, really, really hard to surrender, to know that you can't change this.

[00:22:44] And sometimes for your own sanity, your own health, your own life, you have to know when to let go. Letting go could be leaving for a little while and seeing how it works. It could be staying and having boundaries. You never really know what that moment is. But I knew when I spoke to my sponsor, when I was talking about ending the marriage to him, when I approached it, he said, just know when you know.

[00:23:17] And there was a point where I said. After whatever experience the alcoholic was, I knew at that moment it was time. I knew at that very moment it was time. So yes, my alcoholic did pass away from this disease, but it was ending one way or the other.

[00:23:37] Spencer: Maybe not in, certainly not in the way you had envisioned,

[00:23:41] Cliff: Not at all. Not at all.

[00:23:43] Spencer: would venture to say not in the way you wanted.

[00:23:46] Cliff: Right, right. I, I never forgot who she was before the disease took over her life. A wonderful, loving, talented, brilliant person.

[00:23:57] Spencer: That is the hard part of loving an alcoholic. It's one of the hard parts. There's lots of hard

[00:24:05] parts.

[00:24:06] Cliff: Right.

[00:24:06]

[00:24:07] Spencer: Knowing who that person was and could be again, and that they're not. I'm looking at the chapter headings in this book. I think loss of the dream is certainly one of the things that's going on there. Unmet expectations is a section heading, coming to terms with unmet expectations.And then, chapter five, loss in relationships, which has sections titled things like, should I leave or should I stay when the decision to leave is ours. And then of course there's the the next chapter, death of a Loved one.

[00:24:44] I'm sure there was lots of turmoil, in the immediate aftermath. When did it really sink in that she was gone?

[00:24:54] Cliff: I think when everything was over and I went back to the cemetery to put flowers on.

[00:25:00] Spencer: For me, the preparation, and maybe you can reflect on this, the preparation of saying what that person meant to me in my life, maybe what they meant to others from my viewpoint, was also important in putting some closure on their life for me.

[00:25:20] Cliff: sure,

[00:25:21] When my dad passed away many years ago. My sisters all spoke, my nieces spoke, but I wanted to make sure I was the last person to speak there. And it was more of a testament to the life that he lived and the joy we had when he was alive. There was no way I would be able to speak at my wife's wake. So I spent a few days before the day of the funeral to write something up. And I have a very, very close friend who knew my wife well and was a good friend with her. And every time he spoke to her on the phone, he would encourage her to get help. He would encourage her to get back to your meetings he would offer to take her to a center to get help.

[00:26:01] He was an integral part of our lives together. And I gave him the reading and he did a fabulous job. And he said it in the way I would've said it. He made my words his own, and he said exactly what I needed to say at the end. And it was, it is sad. But the time my wife had on earth, she was a blessing to people who knew her, and she was a joy to be around. She was a light in the room.

[00:26:26] Spencer: And that is so important to recognize. For those of us who have lived with or are living with this disease, this awful, horrible disease. Al-Anon eventually gave me the clarity of vision to remember, to know that inside she was still that wonderful person,

[00:26:52] Cliff: Right.

[00:26:53] Spencer: even though outside was horrible. The outside was the disease. and the disease did not negate who she was. It just covered it up with crap.

[00:27:07] Cliff: They're wonderful people that have an illness and they have no control over it, and you can only hope and pray that they somehow hit a bottom, and they can do something about it, and they can actually find recovery in some way and stay in recovery and understand that every day is a struggle and every day is the decision they make to stay sober and to stay in program. And they need to be congratulated for that because there are miracles walking the earth.

[00:27:36] Spencer: Yeah, I have said, I'm really grateful that,my wife was able to find recovery for herself and that I had nothing to do with that. I heard a speaker recently say, well, you did have something to do with it. You got out of the way.

[00:27:53] Cliff: You hear at the meetings, the three Cs, you didn't cause it. You can't cure it and you can't control it. And I say there's a fourth C, stop contributing to it.

[00:28:05] Spencer: Yeah.

[00:28:06] Cliff: Stop being in the way of their bottom, stop being in the way of them realizing that their behavior is crazy and that this disease is unmanageable. That not contributing. It means a lot of things.

[00:28:21] Spencer: Absolutely. In one of my meetings, we are reading from the book How Al-Anon Works. We're reading the stories in the back of the book, which I know, when I was young in the program, I found comfort in reading those, because, every single one of them is about somebody finding some recovery in, in the midst of an alcoholic relationship. They're not all about, in fact, I don't think most of them are about the alcoholic finding recovery.

[00:28:52] We read this one, titled, Coming to Terms with Another's Disease, in which, the alcoholic does not find recovery, and dies of cancer. The realization that the person writing the story had when the cancer diagnosis came inand the immediate understanding that he had no power over this cancer. He was able to take that and reflect it back on the alcoholism. And recognize at that point that he really had no power over, over the alcoholism as a disease. it took another disease to really wake him up to that observation.

[00:29:40] Cliff: I believe, in people in Al-Anon, their higher power is giving them all the information they need, if they just listen, if they pay attention. The God of your understanding will make things clear and while there's no door flying open saying, go here, go now. This is your next thing. I will try something. And if it is my higher powers will, it will work out. And if it's not my higher powers will, it won't work out. And so I'm open to ideas, I'm open to trying new things and I'm open to going into things without judgment and just trying to understand this is another thing I'm trying to have to learn.

[00:30:20] Spencer: Yeah. Coming back, okay, funeral, your wife's in the ground, you visited her, you were like, this is real.

[00:30:29] Cliff: Yeah.

[00:30:31] Spencer: At that time, how did your grief express itself?

[00:30:35] Cliff: I think it was more of a deep sadness of what could have been. I always saw ourselves as this super couple, with our big S's on our chest. She'd be going to the AA room in the front and I'd be going to the Al-Anon room in the back. We'd sit there with other couples and say how great our programs are and how they've changed our lives. I knew who she was and what an amazing person in recovery she could have been. The lives she could have changed by her story and who she was. She had all the background and all the ability to communicate that, and I grieved for the loss of what wasn't gonna happen.

[00:31:17] I met my wife when I was 23 years old. We grew up together. We experienced, young love, young marriage, first home, first big job, family getting older, nieces and nephews being born as infants. It was a journey. It was a lifelong journey. And it ended abruptly in a way I had no idea could possibly happen and in a way that I had no control over, but also had just never even conceived that this would be where my future was.

[00:31:51] So when you're left with that being gone, you just simply wonder what you do next. And that's where the rooms come in. When you sit in those rooms and you listen to people that are in recovery and can explain to you how they're living their lives, you come to realize that this is not just a program for dealing with the alcoholic and the alcoholism effects on you.

[00:32:15] It's a program for what do you do now? Where is your life going? Where do you want to go next? Pray for the knowledge of God's will for you and the power to carry it out. That's it.

[00:32:28] Spencer: I'm remembering that you said that you had some recognition that your relationship was over.

[00:32:34] Cliff: yeah.

[00:32:35] Spencer: And I reflect on my experience with the loss of my parents that I had been losing them gradually over years as their dementia developed. I think that made the shock of their death less shocking. You know, the fact of their death. It had a lesser impact than if I hadn't already been grieving their loss. Does that make sense?

[00:33:01] Cliff: it does make sense. It does. If you have time, and you know that there's an eventuality there. You over time have accepted it and grieve slowly over time to where the conclusion is known and how you deal with it. You're ready for, in a sense.But this disease takes no prisoners. It will absolutely rip your heart out. And you can't let it become where you are defined by the disease. I am defined by my recovery. I'm defined by how I help others.

[00:33:37] My program has allowed me to be a sponsor.I have tried to help my sponsees. Men are hard. Men are really hard to sponsor. They really are. They don't call you back or they don't respond to a text, or you don't hear from them for weeks at a time. Or they relapse and they don't call you. They're hard to work with. They really are. I will say that they're a challenge, but I love them. You know, my higher power said when they're ready for recovery, they'll find you. They have your phone number, they know where to get you.

[00:34:09] Spencer: I hadn't thought about it that way, but yeah, it's true.

[00:34:12] What other tools of the program, what other recovery principles have helped you in the past year?

[00:34:19] Cliff: I think when you first come into the program, people are encouraged to use the slogans. I always thought of slogans as those posters you pass by in the office, you know, hang in there, whatever the slogan is, they're kind of all silly in a sense. I really never took them seriously. But let me tell you, when I was early in program, those slogans were critical. Because in between meetings, it was really all I had. I had the readings and I had the How Aon works, but it was the slogans that really got me through that one bad evening or that one bad weekend. And after the smoke clears and you're standing there by yourself, it was that live and let live slogan that really held strongly for me.

[00:35:03] I spoke at an anniversary meeting and I broke it up into two pieces of paper. And the first paper was a large live, and the second page was much smaller letters and let live. I got from my higher power that live your life, live from this point forward, live for whatever God has planned for you, and let everything else just go about its business. Without you needing to control it or tell it how to live its life.live your life at this point. And it was the slogans that really were there. Easy does it. One day at a time. They were critical for me because when you're in the middle of the ocean, those slogans are like a lifeline being thrown to you and they keep you afloat for a little while, until you get back to the meetings. Until you get back to the people and you get back to having this as part of your daily life.

[00:36:01] Spencer: A friend of mine refers to them as pocket change. He says, I can carry them around with me and I can pull them out when I need them. I don't have to remember a whole paragraph or a chapter, when I can pull out something like This too shall pass.

[00:36:16] Cliff: yeah

[00:36:17] Spencer: I know that I still, and probably will continue to have those moments, they're less frequent than they used to be, where I'm suddenly struck with the knowledge of loss, the recognition of loss. It might be, I have an experience, and I really wanna share it with my father. I'm like, can't do that. Can't do that. And the sting of those moments, I think is lessening with time. But I still get that pin prick of loss. and I assume that I will continue to have that. The reading that we started with talking about, there is no timeline, is helpful to me in that regard. you know, it's not like I'm supposed to be over it after a year.

[00:37:04] Cliff: Right, right.

[00:37:05] Spencer: There are parts of it that I will never be over, but they will hurt less, I think.

[00:37:10] Cliff: I think time heals to a certain degree, but the people in our lives that are important, will always have a lasting impact on us. I try to utilize my grandmother's cooking recipes and she lives through that meal I make. It was hard to try to recreate it. And it was hard to remember when I was a young boy, standing at the stove and having her slip me a piece of spaghetti sauce in a little bowl with a piece of bread. But it was a great way of honoring her memory. It's never going to be a hundred percent easy. There's always gonna be grief, but live your life. The sun is shining. What are you doing? Get outta your house? it's so easy for us to isolate and to stay away from people and not appreciate the day.

[00:38:03] What my wife's death has shown me is I've got fewer years in front of me than I have behind me. And it's up to me to make the most of my day. And it's up to me to say, where does God need me now? And while I have my fun things I like to do for myself, I'm always looking for the opportunity to serve. Because this experience is not going to waste.

[00:38:30] People are gonna get tired of me saying to them, call me up, invite me to talk at your group. Call me on the phone if you're having a hard day. Reaching out to people I see at the meetings, newcomers, I go right up to the newcomer, introduce myself, share my phone number, because there's gotta be a purpose to all of this.

[00:38:47] There has to be,

[00:38:48] Spencer: Yeah. You spoke indirectly there of the practice of gratitude, recognizing the beautiful day. I remember the power that had for me at times. And usually required a reminder from a program friend to say, Hey there is good, there is beauty. Oh yeah, I forgot about that. It doesn't diminish or eliminate the pain, but it does in a way. It also reminds me to live life, as you said. Be in now. We don't have a slogan about be now, be in now, whatever. Be in the moment. We have just for today, which is kind of a be in the moment, especially if you read the bookmark.

[00:39:37] Cliff: I quoted to one friend, I said, don't do anything stupid, but live your life.

[00:39:42] Spencer: Okay. I'm gonna ask you for your, as a friend of mine might call it, bumper sticker or elevator speech, to somebody who's struggling with grief. What would you give to them from your experience?

[00:39:56] Cliff: I would say that your grief is your own and no one can tell you how to experience it. But as long as today is better, even a little bit than yesterday, you're in a good place, you're in the right direction, and you are finding your way through it. You'll never feel a hundred percent like you used to be. You have to understand that that was a part of your life. It was a moment in time, whether it was a decade or multiple decades, it's no longer the sixties. Stop trying to think that Woodstock's coming back. It's just simply a stage of your life, a moment in time that you had to experience, that you appreciated, and you look forward to the next moment in time. And every day led by your faith, led by your higher power, you will get through this in your own time and in your own way.

[00:40:50] Spencer: Thank you.

[00:40:51] After a short break, we will continue with our lives in recovery, where we talk about how recovery is working in our daily lives. I asked you, as I do to all my guests to bring some music.

Song 1

[00:41:05] Spencer: Talk about the first song that you chose.

[00:41:09] Cliff: The introduction here is, I asked the funeral director at my wife's wake for three things, and these were more for me to get to that point of closure. I said I wanted to see her before the dress and the makeup and all the fancy things came on. I just wanted some time with her alone, and she gave me that.

[00:41:33] And so the first song was the song that I played on my phone because it's not enough for me to grieve. I've gotta go deep, right? I've gotta, I've gotta play sad music, so I really feel it, which is probably not something I would advise anyone else to do. But it was something I felt was my appropriate way of grieving with her.

[00:41:53] The song is Billy Joel, And So It Goes. The words that are there that I found meaningful for me is the first lyrics were, in every heart there is a room, a sanctuary, safe and strong to heal the wounds from lover's past, until the new one comes along. I spoke to you in callous tones. You answered me with no pretense. And still I feel, I said too much. My silence is my self-defense.

[00:42:24] And the chorus is, and so it goes, and so it goes. And so it used to be, I suppose. It seemed appropriate at the time, and that was the song that I chose.

[00:42:35]

Our Lives in Recovery

[00:42:43] Spencer: In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery. How have we experienced recovery recently?

[00:42:52] We are recording this at the end of November, so my recent experience has to do with traveling for the Thanksgiving holiday visiting family. Over the last few years, basically since our parents died, my siblings and I have developed a tradition of celebrating Thanksgiving early. Because we do have to travel to be together. And traveling on Thanksgiving weekend, frankly sucks. I think the first time we did that, I live in Ann Arbor, Michigan, where the University of Michigan is. Always, on Thanksgiving weekend, sometimes it's in Ann Arbor, sometimes it's in Columbus, is the football game between the University of Michigan and the Ohio State University, which is a 130 something year rivalry. It's the big game. It's not impossible, but expensive to find lodging in this town on that weekend, as you might imagine. I heard somebody talk about not just this game, but I think it was Homecoming weekend and how the Red Roof Inn was charging over $300 a night that weekend.

[00:44:03] So, we said, why don't you come a week early and we don't have to worry about it? And we liked that. So this year, because my family members came here for my birthday in August, we said, we guess it's our turn to travel to you guys. Which meant also we could visit one of our sons who lives in New Hampshire and does not like to travel outside of that area. We put about 1700 miles on the car over 10 day period and had Thanksgiving with the New Hampshire son and Thanksgiving with my brother and sister, our other son and some friends, during that time. So there's the stress of travel that requires a lot of acceptance. Driving across rural Vermont and New Hampshire in the evening when it is pitch blackout because the sun goes down at like 4:30, on two lane road, invariably getting behind a truck. And just, this is the way it is, man, these roads, twist and wind and go up and down and there's no passing zone for 30 or 40 miles and just accept it. And don't stress it, just accept it, you know? That's one thing where I feel like learning in Al-Anon to accept the things I can't change.

[00:45:20] The son in New Hampshire, I'll just say we disagree on politics. I have set some boundaries on myself about conversations I won't have with him. He seems to understand and mostly accept that and not take me to those conversations. Again, that is program. I can't change him. I want to spend time with him. I love him. He's a wonderful person who disagrees with me on some fundamental things.

[00:45:49] And who, in my opinion, has some issues that I wish he would work on. I think he recognizes it and is working on them in his own way, which is not my way. And again, let go of that. Let go and let his higher power help him through. We had a good visit. We had a great visit.

[00:46:10] And then it was drive back to the rest of my family.My son thereis dealing with a tragic and sudden loss. He and friends are still grieving. It was maybe a month ago. I know that all I can do is be a support. When we had Thanksgiving at my sister's house, those friends came with my son, and we were able to have a celebration of Thanksgiving. You know, food and company and some laughter.

[00:46:40] On the Monday we went to see the musical Hamilton, which was in town with the traveling Broadway cast. Amazing, amazing musical. But, at the end, spoiler alert, Hamilton dies, is shot in a duel, as we know from history. But it came still as a surprise in the play, you know, There was one thing that was said about him that really struck my son and his close friend in relation to the death of their friend. And they kinda lost it. And again, all I could do. All I could do was be there. At least I could give a real hug this time. He's still in the early stages of grief over this thing, which nobody wanted to happen, but it did.

[00:47:26] Using these principles in all my affairs, helped to make this travel and these Thanksgiving dinners positive experiences, in many ways.

[00:47:37] Not that they would've been totally negative, but there were some dark places that we could have gone, and I didn't have to. We're glad we're home. My dog is super glad we're home. He had lots of company, and this is another thing that we learn in program, is we can ask for help. He's a needy kind of a dog, and we had a village taking care of him. Somebody staying overnight, somebody else walking him and spending some time with him during the day, and another neighbor helping out when neither of those people could. It all worked out, because we were willing to ask for that help.

[00:48:13] How is your recovery working in your life recently?

[00:48:17] Cliff: I am finding peace and serenity in the meetings. More so than I think in the past. I think because I was so deep into the grieving process, and then I started to feel kind of normal, I can sit in the rooms and I can really meditate when no one is sharing. I can really listen to what people have to say in their recovery, and it calms me and it really is a great place. So the rooms have been a real wonderful place to just bring it down a notch.

[00:48:50] When I share with people, I try not to say, well, this is what happened to me, and therefore, you know. No, I simply try to stay focused on what the topic is and understand who is in the room and understand that this is what my higher powers put on my heart in that moment in time.

[00:49:08] Spencer: Thank you.

[00:49:10] Looking forward in the podcast, started a series on the traditions. Revisiting them after 12 years, something like that. when we last did a series on the traditions. So upcoming, we will have, tradition two, which says, for our group purpose there is but one authority, a loving God as he may express himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern.

[00:49:37] What we wanna do is to not only think about how this tradition supports the health of our groups and our meetings, but also how we can use this in our relationships with other people in the rest of our lives. It is one of those principles that Step 12 asks us to practice in all of our affairs.

[00:50:01] We welcome your thoughts, whether it's on today's topic of grief orupcoming tradition or other topics, you can join our conversation. Please leave us a voicemail or send us an email with your feedback or your questions.

[00:50:16] And Cliff, how can people send us feedback?

[00:50:19] Cliff: You can send a voicemail or email to feedback at the recovery dot show, or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 7 3 4 7 0 7 8 7 9 5. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join in the conversation from your computer. We'd love to hear from you. Share your experience, strength, and hope, or your questions about today's topic on grief or any of the other upcoming topics, including tradition two. If you have a topic you'd like us to talk about, let us know.

[00:50:55] If you would like advanced notice of some of our topics so you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list by sending email to feedback at the recovery dot show. Put email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.

[00:51:10] Spencer, where can our listeners find out more about the recovery show?

[00:51:14] Spencer: Our website is the recovery dot show. It has all the information about the show, which is mostly notes for each of the episodes. A summary of what we talked about, and that will include links to the books that we read from or discussed, videos for the music that Cliff chose. Also there you can find some links to other recovery podcasts and websites.

[00:51:39] We'll now take a short break before looking at listener feedback.

Song 2

[00:51:43] Spencer: Our second musical selection, which is also available on the website, in the notes at the recovery dot show slash 4 4 6, is what.

[00:51:54] Cliff: It's Chasing Cars by Snow Patrol. I decided that on that first visit back at the cemetery, that I would play this song on my iPhone. And again, I don't recommend you do this. Grief's hard enough. You don't need to compound it by having sad music at the same time. Part of it is, if I lie here, if I just lay here, would you lie with me and just forget the world?

[00:52:16] And it's just deeply, deeply profound.

[00:52:20] Spencer: .

Listener Feedback

[00:52:28] Spencer: Now it's time to hear from you.

[00:52:30] Mary told me about a bilingual Spanish and English tradition 10 workshop. It starts Saturday, January 24th at 9:00 AM Pacific time. It runs every other week for a total of three sessions. It'll be speakers for an hour, followed by 30 minutes of fellowship. I will post a flyer for the workshop in the show notes at the recovery dot show slash 4 46. A little bit more information. It says live Spanish English language interpretation and transcription tech assisted closed captioning and translation will be provided.

[00:53:08] The first session on January 24th, history and Foundations, understanding the Origins and Intent of Tradition 10. Session Two on February 7th. Unity and Inclusion, creating Safe and Welcoming Meetings. And Session three on February 21st. Misuse and boundaries. Recognizing when Tradition 10 is misapplied.

[00:53:31] There's a registration link in the flyer and I'll also post that link in the show notes.

[00:53:39] Amanda wrote to me asking about daily online meetings and the two that I was able to provide, didn't fit her schedule. She wrote back later and said she had found a 7:30 PM Eastern Time daily meeting called End Your Day Right. She would still love to hear about other meetings that you might recommend. Send your suggestions of meetings that you attend and you like, that meet online every day, to feedback at the recovery dot show.

[00:54:09] I thank you, and Amanda thanks you in advance, for your suggestions.

[00:54:15] A listener wrote,

[00:54:17] There was one episode where someone quoted a line from Courage to Change, but they weren't sure what page it was on. The line was, be still and know that I am with you. I heard it while I was driving and immediately texted it to my husband so I wouldn't forget it. I love how simple, yet deeply meaningful it is, especially the way it was explained, reminding us that we're not alone, that we are safe and that we are okay. I was just curious if anyone ever figured out what page that quote is on. I found it, and I wrote back to the listener. The quote is from Courage to Change, September 4th, and the reference was in episode nine on step two. Close to 39 minutes, maybe 40 minutes into the episode if you wanna go hear exactly what this listener was excited about.

[00:55:06] That is your feedback for this episode. More next time.

Thank you, Cliff

[00:55:11] Spencer: Cliff, I want to thank you for joining me today to talk about grief, in many different aspects of how we use recovery to help us through grief, help us experience grief.

[00:55:27]

Song 3

[00:55:27] Spencer: What is your third song that you chose?

[00:55:32] Cliff: My third song is a song by Sarah McLachlan that everyone hears, at those sad moments when you know someone wants you to send in money. I've heard this song at wakes, I've heard it at funerals. The song is Angel by Sarah McLachlan. I have been looking at these lyrics and listening to this song and for me, this song is not for the person we are grieving. This song is for us. Because if you listen to the words or read the lyrics, you'll hear some Al-Anon in here.

[00:56:04] It starts with, Spend all your time waiting for that second chance. For a break that would make it okay. There's always some reason to feel not good enough. And it's hard at the end of the day. I need some distraction. Oh, a beautiful release. Memories seep from my veins. Let me be empty and all the weightlessness, and maybe I'll find some peace tonight. The chorus is, In the arms of an angel. Fly away from here. From this dark, cold hotel room, and the endlessness that you fear. You were pulled from the wreckage of your silent reverie. You're in the arms of an angel. May you find comfort here.

[00:56:54]

Outro

[00:56:59] Spencer: Thank you for listening and please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us. Who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you are facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding, love and peace growing you one day at a time.