Intro

[00:00:01] Spencer: How can we recover as a couple and carry the message to other couples who still struggle?

[00:00:07] Welcome to episode 440 of the Recovery Show. This episode is brought to you by Catherine, Kathleen and Robin. They used the donation button on our website. Thank you, Catherine, Kathleen, and Robin for your generous contributions. This episode is for you.

[00:00:23] We are friends and family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction, understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:41] Valerie: Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program. During this show, we will share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you will find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:01:01] Spencer: My name is Spencer. I am your host today, and joining me today is Valerie. Welcome to the Recovery Show. Valerie.

[00:01:08] Valerie: Thank you so much, Spencer. I'm just really grateful, for the opportunity to be here today.

Recovering Couples Anonymous

[00:01:14] Spencer: Today we're taking a slightly different tack from usual, and we're going to bring in the 12th step from the program, Recovering Couples Anonymous, also, I guess known as RCA.

[00:01:27] We thought we would start out with a little bit as sometimes you hear people qualifying, in other words, a little bit of your story about, how you came, I guess first to Al-Anon and then to RCA.

[00:01:41] Valerie: Yes. Yes, definitely. Thank you. I figured I'd do this in three sections. My background, my background with my husband or our background, and then a little bit about RCA background before we dig into the good stuff.

[00:01:53] My background, my first marriage was impacted by addiction and by some dysfunction from my family of origin. But I, I have to say now that I did not know that until probably the past 2 years, maybe, that that came into focus for me. That marriage ended after 10 years. I have a son and a daughter who are wonderful people that were the result of that marriage. But, there was a lot of, I would say abuse that continued to happen even after we divorced. And what that looked like was, what I would call legal abuse. I was being drug into court on a fairly regular basis and accused of being an unfit mother. None of that was true. And my ex-husband at the time was representing himself, so he just it was a game. So he would do that and I would have to pay money for a lawyer to prepare, and then he'd cancel or he wouldn't show.

[00:02:40] So it was impactful to me that behavior. My interpretation through that and at the end of all of that was, I just didn't understand what was happening. I didn't understand why he behaved that way, and I really felt like somehow I had just made an error, in my choices around being in that relationship. And so for about eight years, I was a single mom working full time. definitely had connection to a higher power, but in a different way than I see that today. At that point in time, I was very bitter, very fulfilled with resentment. Trying to date, but not really open. Definitely had a wall around my heart with all of that.

[00:03:18] I would have my moments where I would just ask my higher power to please help me find someone who was, think in that time I was wording it as deserving of my love, right? I really felt that I had such a deep capacity for love that can you just give me somebody that's actually going to deserve that? About eight years, into the single mom life, my current husband kind of showed up and I felt like that was directly from my higher power and I felt like the beginning of my fairytale was happening. My current husband and I got married in August of 2014. This was a second marriage for both of us, and we blended our kids together, who actually, they got along extremely well. We were blessed in that way, but, we happened to bring along with us the disease of alcoholism. And certainly I brought the baggage from my first failed marriage as well as my family of origin without any kind of understanding where all of those things were coming from or how they were having an impact on the things that I was experiencing. By November of 2019, things had really deteriorated with my current husband. And, I moved out and that is when I started Al-Anon. I went to my first Al-Anon meeting, like most, wanting to figure out how I could just get my husband to stop behaving the way that he was. And I kept coming back.

[00:04:34] I think I also did the thing where I sat close to the door and as soon as the meeting was over, I ran out. But definitely felt the compulsion to come back, that there was something there. I would say the next handful of years. So between, that was in November of 2019. we did not enter RCA until January of 2023. So during those years in between, my program at the beginning was one meeting a week. That is still my home group meeting. I did get a sponsor early on and I did start working the steps.

[00:05:07] 2020 was not kind to me. There were a lot of traumatic things that happened. After being moved out for a few months, I did try to move back in with my husband. And that turned into a physical altercation. I ultimately moved from the east coast to the central part of the country trying to put a physical distance in there. I also filed for divorce. I just really was, frustrated. It's not what I wanted. I certainly didn't want another failed marriage. I didn't know what to do. I just knew I needed not be in that environment or near him. Shortly after moving, making that big move, I fell and broke my arm. And then shortly after that, my mom died, which was absolutely life changing for me. I wasn't very codependent with my mom and enmeshed.

[00:05:55] So the next couple of years really was, it was hard. I was, I think in shock. I was deeply depressed. I couldn't deal with what was going on with my husband. I was having a hard time dealing with the loss of my mom. I was being a care taker for my dad who lived in the Detroit area. So I was, I spent a whole lot of time with him. Of course, into the winter of 2020 was, COVID, COVID winter, and my dad had history of cancer. So, you know, I felt the need to protect him. Was afraid that my brothers would not do that correctly. We talk about perfectionism and that's definitely one of my character defects. Anyways, those years were pretty rough. I had a lot to deal with. I still continued to do my one meeting month. I did meet with my sponsor. I was still trying to work the steps, but I would have to say my first time through the steps, it was really difficult. There were a lot of questions in the book that I left completely blank because I just simply could not answer them. I didn't know myself well enough to even answer them. Because I'd been so hyper-focused on, on my husband, his illness, my mom, my, my father, and his wellbeing that I could not, I couldn't answer questions about myself 'cause I didn't know myself.

[00:07:06] Eventually, my husband, and I don't wanna tell his story or his journey, but he found recovery in August of 22. At that point we were a signature away from getting a divorce. We had started working. I actually had reached out to a therapist to say, I need some help having a conversation with my husband about getting a divorce. Most of our conversations were dysfunctional. We couldn't communicate clearly, and I thought if I had some objective person help us with those discussions, we could get a little bit further. And through that process of trying to have those discussions, the therapist at one point brought up RCA saying that they had some tools that could help with communication and perhaps we could just attend a meeting, take a look at the tools that they had and see if those could potentially help us, in these conversations that we were having.

[00:07:59] The first meeting that we went to. I remember that I could hear program in the room, and I understood enough at that point about my own individual program that of course they said keep coming back. I heard things in that room, couples that were struggling with a lot of the same things that my husband and I had struggled with, and yet there they were and they were working things out. They were communicating clearly. They were having some success in their coupleships. So, we continued to go back. I can't say that I embraced it with open arms even after the first six meetings. In fact, I think we went more than six meetings before I was willing to commit to doing the program. But, we eventually committed to staying and working the program, starting in January of 23. We pushed pause on our divorce, and, today we live together. We are still married. We work our RCA program as well as our individual programs. And I wanted to be on the show today to talk specifically about RCA.

[00:09:00] I had mentioned to you, Spencer, early on that I, there's so much of my journey that I could talk about, but for me, the importance of doing this particular episode was to make sure that people got a clear understanding of what RCA has to offer.

[00:09:14] Spencer: I know that, several years back, one of my guests talked about RCA, and I just kinda let it go by.

[00:09:23] Valerie: I haven't made it through all of your episodes yet. I do listen to your podcast almost daily when I'm out for a walk. I think there was one episode that I heard somebody reference RCA, but did not provide any kind of detailed information.

[00:09:38] Spencer: Hey, future Spencer here. As I'm editing, I did a search in the Recovery Show Archive and found that a listener wrote about experience in Recovering Couples Anonymous, in an email that I read in episode number 2 81, which was titled, How Do You Trust? Now, back to the original conversation.

[00:10:05] You offered, first, I think you said, Hey, how about step 12? But you also said RCA and, since I had already arranged with Eric to talk about step 12 with him from the Al-Anon perspective.

[00:10:19] Well, let's, let's talk about it from RCA. The step 12 in RCA is a little bit different wording from the step 12 in Al-Anon. Just as the step 12 in Al-Anon is a little bit different wording than step 12 in Alcoholics Anonymous, which is where it all started. So how does Step 12 read for RCA?

[00:10:42] Valerie: Step 12 says, having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other couples and to practice these principles in all aspects of our lives, our relationship, and our families.

[00:10:56] One of the words that you learn really quickly in RCA that's a bit different is they use the word coupleship. It's not really, it's not a real word. If you put it in the, in writing it, it puts a little squiggly under it to let you know, Hey, this isn't a thing. But in RCA it is, they treat the coupleship as a its own entity that needs to be nurtured like a child. It takes time to adopt that way of thinking about the relationship. Again, I went into RCA with all the hurt and the mistrust, that had developed and it took time. Even once we worked the steps, we got to the end of the steps in RCA and I really believed that we had done it wrong. We did it too fast. We didn't go deep enough, we didn't learn enough, like we hadn't done it correctly, right? And that's my perfectionism. If it doesn't meet my expectations, then it wasn't right. But what ends up happening is it as most times with the steps, it exposes you to the ideas. It exposes you to the principles, it exposes you to that new perspective. Then as life happens, you suddenly find yourself recognizing points in the relationship where, you know, the things that they teach you to see, and then the tools that they give you to help you deal with those situations start to become apparent and you see it, of course, and then I can start accepting it, and then I can start doing it differently.

[00:12:15] Spencer: you brought the reading about step 12 from the book, Recovering Couples Anonymous, and I'll put a link to that in the show notes at the recovery show slash four 40. Why don't we go through that as we do with the Al-Anon readings. A little bit of a response to each paragraph as we read. And I'll start with the first paragraph.

[00:12:40] Step 12 is about taking the message of couple recovery to other couples. Those who have worked the 12 steps have much to offer other couples. When we are able to shine the light of our own recovery experiences in such a manner that others find their own way, we are practicing the 12th step.

[00:12:58] Now, how does this speak to you?

[00:13:00] Valerie: Yeah, so, you know, stepping into the rooms of RCA, there are brave couples in those rooms who talk about all the things that you don't talk about. They talk about infidelity, they talk about abuse, they talk about financial issues, they talk about problems with children and families, and, the impact of past hurts. Being in an individual program isn't required to be in RCA. But I can tell you that most of the couples in there have individual 12 step programs in addition to RCA. And for me, in my experience, not sure I would've been successful in RCA had I not had five years of Al-Anon under my belt. Because again, coming in the door, I was deeply hurting.

[00:13:50] For me things often make sense academically. Like I can see it and I can understand it a lot faster than I feel it in my heart as the right thing to do. I was really angry, and resentful. I would say even once we finished the steps, I still had a lot of those feelings, but I had enough of an exposure to the program, to the steps, to the tools, to other couples who were having success, to know that if I kept coming back and if we kept doing the work and if I just trusted the program, that eventually my heart would start to catch up, especially as we started practicing what we were learning.

[00:14:28] And the other part with doing this with a partner is your partner's doing the same thing. So there's moments where you suddenly see your partner testing out tools or behaving differently, approaching conflict differently, and you start to recognize their commitment to doing this work with you. And that just helps improve the feelings of sort of safety around doing it in this way.

[00:14:53] Spencer: Awesome.

[00:14:54] Valerie: Yeah.

[00:14:55] Spencer: When I look at this, I think about my experience in Al-Anon, where other members, as it says here, shine the light of their own recovery experiences. I think as you said, that brought me in. It gave me hope. It said to me, look, we've been where you are, and here's where we are now.

[00:15:22] Our 11th tradition talks about attraction rather than promotion. By sharing our own recovery, we are able to attract people who are still suffering into finding their recovery. We're not out there saying, rah, rah, rah, recovery, recovery. Because so often I think that pushes people away rather than pulls them in.

[00:15:47] Valerie: absolutely.

[00:15:48] Spencer: There's a very clear parallel for me, making me think about my own relationship, my own coupleship,

[00:15:55] Valerie: yeah,

[00:15:55] Spencer: and, where we still after, almost 20 years of mutual recovery in our own programs, there's still stuff that happens. There's still, character defects in each of us that affect our relationship.

[00:16:09] So interesting to think about. Yep.

[00:16:11] Valerie: yeah, definitely.

[00:16:13] Spencer: Could you read the next paragraph?

[00:16:14] Valerie: Sure. Paragraph two. We find that spiritual awakenings are seldom sudden occurrences, but more generally gradual shifts in perspective. These spiritual awakenings often take place through couples working the steps of RCA together. We typically gain an awareness of the importance of our coupleships as a oneness and an entity, and thus reach new levels of commitment. When we learned that neither one of us is the center of the universe, we may be able to see how we fit together and how our coupleship fits into the rest of the world. These awakenings transform us both individually and as a couple.

[00:16:51] Spencer: I have the whole spiritual awakening thing, which for me was very gradual, that I didn't see it happening. Until I paused and looked back and said, wow, I live my life very differently than I did before these steps. I could see how that could probably more likely to be true, in a couple's recovery environment. New levels of commitment. My wife and I this week celebrated our 41st wedding anniversary,

[00:17:24] Valerie: congratulations.

[00:17:25] Spencer: which exhibits some level of commitment.

[00:17:27] Valerie: It does

[00:17:28] Or stubbornness.

[00:17:30] Spencer: something like that. Yes. One of those things. Neither one of us is the center of the universe. I mean, I see that most of the time. Can't say always, I'm sure.

[00:17:41] Valerie: Yeah.

[00:17:42] Spencer: Transforming us both individually and as a couple. You know, that's the thing that I think about here is, our individual transformations in our respective programs, I think have transformed us some as a couple, but there is probably significant room for more growth, more change. How did you see this working in your life?

[00:18:05] Valerie: that's a great question. So in working the steps in RCA, everything is done as couples. We have a sponsor couple.

[00:18:13] So when we were working the steps, we always met the four of us together, in RCA, we would never meet just one-on-one or one of us with our sponsor couple. If there's gonna be a meeting or a discussion, all four people participate. so we worked the steps with our sponsor couple, and that process is different because you go through and as you're answering questions. I answer the question and my partner writes my answer down. And when I'm done with my answer, my partner reads back the answer exactly as they've written it. And then they ask, did I get that correct? And you have an opportunity to correct it if you need to, but your partner's not allowed to say anything about it or comment on it. They simply have to sit there and listen and make sure they understand what you've said. And that goes back and forth with each question working through all of the steps.

[00:19:11] It teaches you to listen to your partner, and understand what they're saying.

[00:19:17] Spencer: So there's a workbook that you went through when you were working the steps. That's where these questions came from. There will be links to, to various books. I can tell that already.

[00:19:27] Valerie: Yes. There's also, there's other types of assignments throughout the RCA steps. So for example, one of the things that we did early on in the steps was to, we had to create a collage of pictures that depicted our collective higher power. That was really difficult to do.

[00:19:49] I didn't really struggle with the idea of a higher power in my individual program. My understanding of my higher power changed through program. And so I. was getting comfortable with, I now have a higher power of my own understanding, and suddenly I was in this program where I had to like share that, or once again, like question whether my perspective of my higher power could be broadened to include my partner, or was there like some separate entity that was our higher power, or is it I have a higher power and he has a higher power and they like, somehow they get together.

[00:20:27] So, trying to visualize that or put down on paper things that spoke to us as a couple to be the guiding spiritual forces in our coupleship, was, it was fun. you know, we took pictures outta magazines or whatever to make this collage and then we took it to one of the meetings to share with everybody.

[00:20:46] Spencer: Wow. Okay.

[00:20:48] Valerie: Yeah.

[00:20:49] Spencer: I have heard a metaphor that I identify with, which is, so visualize yourself inside a cathedral and there's all these different stained glass windows and stuff in the cathedral, and it's very beautiful.

[00:21:04] The metaphor is that our higher power is the sun. And each of us may be standing in front of, looking at a different window and seeing that window as our higher power.

[00:21:18] But in reality, our higher power is beyond our conception. And, that I think has helped me come to acceptance that different people understand God, their higher power in a different way. But that in some sense, and particularly between me and my wife, where we do have different views of our higher power. Mine's much more abstract than hers. We're still talking about the same thing. What a small word for such a big idea in the end. We just experience our higher power differently. So what does that mean for us as a couple? Yeah, I don't know.

[00:22:01] Valerie: It was helpful that, I feel like I had had a connection to a higher power, my whole life. And like I said, my perception of that, or understanding of that changed through my individual program. I still to this day believe that our higher power had a hand in my meeting, my husband. It fell apart where I had expectations of that being a fairytale, right? Like I had unrealistic expectations about our relationship and our marriage. And I was angry with my higher power when my husband's illness got to the point where I felt I needed to remove myself from the situation.

[00:22:40] Like I said, I was, getting a divorce, but not because I wanted to. And I was angry with my higher power that that was where I needed to go with it. 'cause I then, I completely didn't understand like, what was the point of any of this. What that did was it got me out of the way, right?

[00:22:53] The minute I stepped out of the way and allowed my husband the dignity of his own choices and coming to his own conclusions about what was best for him and his life, a higher power was able to get in there and do for him what I couldn't do for him, because I was not his higher power. It also forced me to detach and understand that he wasn't my higher power. And as we worked our individual programs and became stronger individually. Like I said, it was through our therapist that RCA was introduced to us. And I think it is nothing short of a miracle that we are where we are today, because of that.

[00:23:36] Spencer: Next paragraph is a nice short one.

[00:23:38] We acquire new depth and understanding of the wisdom of the 12 steps. As we watch other couples around us being transformed. We witness the spiritual nature of the program in action. We come to believe in miracles.

[00:23:52] And I thought, wait a minute. I bet the 12 steps, most of them are not exactly the same as we're used to from Al-Anon or from AA. So I went and looked them up and I'm just gonna read these here because, they are different because the subject is different, right?

[00:24:10] Step one, we admitted we were powerless over our relationship, that our lives together had become unmanageable. Two, we came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to commitment and intimacy. Which I guess is the couple's version of sanity?

[00:24:30] Valerie: Yes, yes.

[00:24:32] Spencer: Three. We made a decision to turn our wills and our life together over to the care of God as we understood God. Four. We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of our relationship together as a couple. That's gotta be hard. That could be a whole episode in itself, I'm sure.

[00:24:52] Valerie: But yes.

[00:24:53] Spencer: Five. We admitted to God to each other and to another couple the exact nature of our wrongs. Okay, that's a clear parallel. Six. We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character, communication and caring. Seven. We humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings. Eight. We made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. Nine. We made direct amends to such people wherever possible except when to do so would injure them or others. 10. We continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it to our partner and to others we had harmed.

[00:25:34] 11 . We sought through our common prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God praying only for knowledge of God's will for us, and the power to carry that out. Common prayer and meditation. Okay, I'm gonna think on that one a little bit. And then 12 as we're talking about today, Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other couples and to practice these principles in all aspects of our lives, our relationship, and our families.

[00:26:06] Valerie: Yeah. The reference to common Prayer, we do the we version of the Serenity Prayer.

[00:26:11] Spencer: Okay.

[00:26:12] Valerie: So this process of the character defects, our dysfunction in communication and caring. We do that work in the steps together and understand how that dysfunction has impacted our coupleship. But when it comes to the list of people that we have harmed as a couple and then making amends as a couple, that's more around, the bad example that we set as a couple.

[00:26:41] You know, we had to make amends to our adult children for our behavior as a couple. We had to recognize that our behavior as a couple was very harmful and at times traumatic to our children and to other members of our family. So it really is different than individually. This is what I did individually, but what this process did for me. Was, it helped me understand my own character defects. Things I had not necessarily uncovered yet in my individual program, or I knew about them in my individual program and I was trying to work on them and do better with them. But I now recognized the impact of my behaviors on my partner. But then also, modeling that dysfunctional behavior for my children. Prior to that, in my individual program, what I thought was that I had made a mistake in my choices, in partners and that I was wrong for choosing somebody that, had this disease.

[00:27:40] There was a lot of couple shame, which it was again, a term I didn't know until we started doing RCA. When I heard those words, couple shame, I'm like, that's it, right? That's it. I was embarrassed. Not only individually did I feel shame that I had put my children through this, but I had this couple shame more. I was embarrassed about who I was married to and what our marriage looked like and what it had become and the way that we had behaved. I knew how hurtful that was to so many people. And that hits my fix, manage and control button square in the middle, right? Like, I need to control this person so that I can fix this dysfunctional thing that's going on.

[00:28:26] Spencer: Oh wow.

[00:28:27] Valerie: This program teaches us that we are each 100% responsible for the coupleship. We are each 100% responsible for how healthy or unhealthy the coupleship is. And by wording it that way, what that means is not only do I have to follow the principles of this program, but if it's part of my 100% that I'm responsible for and I got some dysfunction going on, I need to be going back to my individual program and doing some work, so that I can get that in alignment before I come back and bring it into my coupleship.

[00:29:02] That's where these two programs together synergistically just really elevated my understanding of living a life of recovery. The tools that I gained in RCA in addition to the tools I already had from Al-Anon, I'm so able now to use this in every aspect of my life. I use these tools in my work life, in my personal life with every interaction I have. It's so helpful. It's truly so helpful.

[00:29:33] And that's the miracle. And I wouldn't have thought that, I mean, coming in the door, I heard these couples and there were couples in the room that were like, we were living apart, we were close to divorce. And yet here they were sitting together in this room, talking this language and clearly like having healthy relationship. Even though I could see it and I could hear it, I didn't feel it. I didn't feel it until, recently we've been doing this, like I said, about a year and a half and we're just now, I think getting to a point where I'm really seeing the miracle in how far we have come. So I think the timing of this podcast really good.

[00:30:11] Spencer: From what I've heard of your story, I feel like going from being one signature away from divorce to where I hear you are now is a miracle, right?

[00:30:25] Valerie: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:30:26] Spencer: How did that happen?

[00:30:30] Valerie: We kept coming back.

[00:30:31] Spencer: You kept coming back. Exactly. Go to meetings, read the literature, get a sponsor. Work the steps. Right.

[00:30:38] Valerie: Absolutely.

[00:30:40] Spencer: One more thing that I noted about the steps is that the word we is explicitly in each of the steps, whereas in the AA and Al-Anon steps, we only see the word we explicit in the first step.

[00:30:57] And it implied in the following steps. Right.

[00:31:01] Valerie: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:01] Spencer: Step two came to believe that a power that greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. There's no we in the written version of the step,

[00:31:09] Valerie: Right?

[00:31:10] Spencer: it is implied that we came to believe that a power greater than ourselves. But here, I think emphasizing we, because it's the two of you.

[00:31:20] Together taking this step, it's really important that the we is there. At least, that's how I see that.

[00:31:27] Valerie: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:28] Spencer: You wanna read the next paragraph?

[00:31:30] Valerie: Sure. Just as in our individual programs, in the RCA fellowship, we carry the message in many ways, including sharing as a couple in RCA meetings, seeking and accepting service positions, which my husband and I were the secretary couple early on in program, being sponsors and temporary sponsors. We haven't gone there just yet, but we will. Carrying the message of hope to others, which hopefully we're doing some of that today.

[00:31:57] Spencer: Yeah.

[00:31:58] Valerie: Supporting the national conventions through participation, voting as a group delegate couple, and making financial contributions. We did go to the RCA convention last year and we really enjoyed it. Serving on the World Service Organization have not done that yet. And writing our couple story and sharing it with others, we definitely share in a fairly regular basis at our weekly RCA meetings. But again, always looking for opportunities to be able to do that.

[00:32:26] Spencer: So have you written your couple story?

[00:32:30] Valerie: We haven't written it out. We've talked about it in our shares, but we haven't sat down and written it from beginning to end.

[00:32:37] Spencer: That's an interesting one.

[00:32:39] Valerie: yeah.

[00:32:40] Spencer: Again, I see parallels here. Sharing in meetings, service positions, sponsoring , carrying the message of hope to others, which is a little bit different from sharing in meetings, I guess. Speaking at a conference or a convention or something like that, or speaking on a podcast is carrying that message of hope, right?

[00:33:01] Valerie: Yes.

[00:33:01] Spencer: National conventions, just this July, my wife and I were at the AA International Convention. It was amazing. It was tiring. It was actually exhausting, but also inspiring and uplifting. Being in a sports arena with 30 something thousand other people saying the serenity prayer. Is,

[00:33:29] Valerie: powerful.

[00:33:30] Spencer: It's a powerful experience. It absolutely is. Serving on the WSO, no, I haven't done that. I have shared my story many times clearly, both here and in other venues. How helpful was it to you to have this list of ways in which you can carry the message?

[00:33:53] Valerie: Not sure it's so much the list of carrying the message. For me, it is truly the transformation to have gone from a place of. I really did not have hope, even when we showed up, just to try to understand what the communication tools were gonna be, that were gonna help us or whatever. I did not have hope and then I would think, even if, even if this works and my husband and I reconcile, there's no way that the relationship between my husband and my adult children was ever, ever going to be mended. That just was not even within the realm of possibility. We spent 4th of July weekend together as a family, and it was amazing. It was absolutely amazing this year. So, again, I put these things here so that people can see the relationship between RCA and other 12 step programs, but it's not these individual list things. It's the magic that happens. It's the miracles that happen. If you're willing to just trust the process, and the experience of the people that have gone before us and, have done this work.

[00:35:02] Spencer: Final paragraph here. Having worked these 12 steps, it is important to remember that step work is meant for a lifetime. As we practice these steps, we have a better understanding of our history, our lives, our coupleship, and our higher power. As we share our experience, strength, and hope, we see the positive effects on our relationships. And if we have children, we can break the chains that have bound families for generations. We learn from those couples who have gone before. The message we carry is a liberating one. Working with newcomers is not only a rewarding experience, it shows where we have been and where we need to go.

[00:35:46] Beautiful.

[00:35:47] Valerie: Yeah.

[00:35:48] Spencer: Breaking the chains

[00:35:50] Valerie: Yeah.

[00:35:51] Spencer: dysfunction. You know, I've talked to a number of people who are members of Adult Children of Alcoholics, another 12 step program. That are working to break those chains for themselves and their children if they have children.

[00:36:11] Valerie: Yeah.

[00:36:12] Spencer: I think it's so beautiful that this takes that up a step to, the parents. That if we work to break those chains of dysfunction from both ends, I think it can have a more than doubled effect. The word synergy comes to mind here,

[00:36:32] Valerie: Sure.

[00:36:33] Spencer: If you work on a problem from two different perspectives or more than two different perspectives, those efforts can work together to produce a greater effect than either of them separately, or both of them, but not together.

[00:36:48] Valerie: I, have to stress that, early 2023 is when I hit my bottom in Al-Anon. At that point in time, I picked up where I had left off the first time I filed for divorce, and started moving things forward again. We were living separately. I was starting to feel physically sick because I wasn't taking care of myself. And what I recognized in my individual work was that I needed a full on campaign to rewire my thinking.

[00:37:20] I took a very comprehensive approach to my individual program. I went from just doing one meeting a week. Back to my sponsor and just said I feel I need to start working the program all day, every day.

[00:37:33] And I, I started working the steps over again with my sponsor. I did it differently the second time. I didn't use the workbook. I wrote my life story. And that helped me to see the threads from my family of origin that I didn't see when I had just answered the questions in the book. Once I was able to see those threads from my family of origin, that was a metamorphosis too, right?

[00:37:56] It went from aha, my family is to blame for all of my problems. To continuing to do this work. And I started doing multiple meetings a week. I started listening to your podcast. I just, every time I bumped up against something that struck a chord with me, I took Eric's lead and started looking up definitions of just everything. Like, if I understand it, then I can do it differently. I have positive affirmations all over the place. I had lists in my phone, I had books galore. I just was literally bombarding myself with program, all day, every day.

[00:38:36] And, somewhere in that journey. My husband was still active and still struggling, and I was struggling to push forward with divorce, which isn't what I wanted to do. And I had this anger thing going on, and I remember I was out for a walk. And the idea of meditating, I couldn't sit still. I struggled with that and I was out for a walk and over my headphones listening to you, I could hear water running like a waterfall and I stopped and I took my earphones out of my ear and there just happened to be this little trickle of a waterfall next to the trail I was on. I was like, oh, that sounds like a spa. I'm just gonna sit down right here and I'm gonna attempt to meditate. Because I just felt I needed to sit the pose. as I was sitting down out of nowhere, what I heard was, he's deserving of your love, which was the exact thing that I had asked for before I had met my husband. And I was, I like, it stunned me so much that I like opened my eyes again and was like, where did that just come from?

[00:39:34] Spencer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:36] Valerie: And I wrote it down in my phone in the moment. I'm like, this just like really happened. Like I really just heard this. And this was before RCA, this was before I knew any of this was going to happen. But, those higher power moments, if you're willing, if you're open, happens. Not that I didn't doubt after that, not that he didn't scrutinize that, not that I wasn't resentful. It's not that I felt better, I still had to do the work. We still had to show up.

[00:40:00] But, just, it's amazing. It's amazing. What happens.

[00:40:05] Spencer: Yeah. Those moments that this voice like. I've had a couple of those that, that I at least noticed, right? Where this voice in the back of my head or somewhere, I don't know, said something that. I would not have said

[00:40:24] Valerie: Yeah.

[00:40:25] Spencer: myself. Right. Something out there is helping to restore me to sanity.

[00:40:30] Yay.

[00:40:31] Valerie: The fact that it was that exact wording, and I hadn't thought about that since several years before when I had said it. You know, in my head to my higher power.

[00:40:38] Spencer: Yeah. I'm going to say, with no evidence, that those words eventually brought you to this place where you are finding recovery as a couple.

[00:40:50] Valerie: Absolutely. Kicking and screaming mind you. But,

[00:40:53] Spencer: Yes. You brought a couple of other things from the RCA book that I think maybe we'll talk about them now.

[00:41:03] Valerie: Yeah, that would be great. There's a list of recovery tools that I wanna just mention, but there's one of the tools in particular that I'd like to talk about in more detail. On page 58 in the book, it says, we find these recovery tools useful for restoring and sustaining the commitment, intimacy and joy in our coupleships. Attending and sharing at meetings. Calling a meeting of two. Which either my husband or I, if we're needing to talk about something, can say, I need to call a meeting of two. And we set a time. Then we say the we Serenity Prayer, we read the safety guidelines and we have a meeting of two to discuss whatever the issue is.

[00:41:41] Calling a moratorium or time out if things get heated and we need to push pause. Conflict resolution contracts and written agreements. Financial issues are a hot button topic for us. And as we were working our steps and we got to the point where we needed to consider agreements and contracts, we sat and wrote out a financial contract. That was one of the most helpful tools we've ever had. We read that financial agreement every week when we have a financial meeting. And then once a month we have a more robust financial meeting where we actually look at our retirement accounts and like the whole picture of our financial wellbeing and planning. And, we read our agreement then as well.

[00:42:26] Developing a support system within and outside of So definitely going to the conference, participating in these meetings and knowing that there are other couples that we can reach out to that have been where we are. Having couples that, are sober couples that like, have hobbies and things that don't center on drinking. You know, I come from a family where alcohol was the center of most family gatherings and most of my friends share that as well. So starting to develop a network of people that don't fit that mold anymore is really helpful.

[00:42:59] Speaking, from I statements instead of you you you. Listening and communicating. Reading and working the steps, which we have started working the steps over again just this past week with our sponsor couple using a different book and a different approach. And I'm looking forward to that.

[00:43:18] Reading recovery literature. So there are stories in the main book, that we read, and there's, just like we will have the quote of the day, there's, things that we will attempt to work on each day when you read those readings in the book.

[00:43:33] Service sponsorship.

[00:43:34] And then the last one is using the safety guidelines, and that's the one I want to talk about a little bit more because I would say this is the single most impactful tool, I think to my experience with RCA and my ability to do this work. The safety guidelines say that anonymity and mutual respect of boundaries are essential to providing a healing experience to each of us. Most of us have had great difficulty establishing our boundaries, assertiveness, and personal space, and that's absolutely true for me. We are sensitive to crosstalk. Our purpose is not to give advice or try to fix one another, but rather to create a safe environment where we can experience and share our pain.

[00:44:14] We have found that, number one, it is okay to feel. Number two, it is okay to make mistakes. Number three, it is okay to have respectful conflict. Four, it is okay to have needs and to ask for them to be met. Five, it is important to respect others, partners, and others in the group. It is important to avoid self-righteous statements, baiting or button pushing statements, case building statements, and the taking or sharing of another person's inventory.

[00:44:43] I'm gonna pause there for just a second because that statement alone, I'm so guilty of every single one of those things. And the case building statement piece of it, when this really started to sink in , 'cause we read this every week at our meetings and we read this before we do any kind of work in RCA, made me acutely aware that I was spending a ton of time case building. When I recognize I'm doing that and I can stop and ask myself like, why? What am I thinking? What am I feeling? And then what's the story I'm telling myself? That case building becomes about setting the record straight. There was so much that I think stems back to the legal abuse that was going on with my first husband and having to justify my behavior and show up in court and try to justify that I was a good mother. I just got in this habit of feeling like I have to justify everything. I had experiences with that in my childhood as well. The blame and shame and if you could justify and explain whatever well enough, you could shift the blame to somebody else and not get in trouble. Right. It was helpful to see that wording here, that case building and pique my awareness of wow, I do that a lot. I'm not so sure about the baiting button pushing. I'm sure I do it, I'm sure. But, but self-righteous. Absolutely. Case building. Yep. And sharing of another person's inventory, that goes together with the self-righteousness. I would never blah, blah, blah. And you did, therefore you're wrong. I'm right. You should be more perfect,

[00:46:19] Spencer: Yeah,

[00:46:20] You should be more perfect.

[00:46:22] Valerie: You should be more perfect like me. And I would say the ones before that too, it's okay to make mistakes. I'm not sure anybody ever said those words to me. I was certain that, mistakes made me a bad person.

[00:46:35] Okay to have needs and ask for them to be met. That's a good one, because it forces me to ask myself what do I need? And then figure out how to verbalize that. And then just because I might ask my husband to fulfill a need for me, doesn't mean he has to. If I am going to the hardware store for a loaf of bread, I'm asking somebody to fulfill a need that they're not capable of meeting. That doesn't make them wrong. It just means I need to get that need filled in a different way,

[00:47:01] Spencer: Yeah. I like the next one as a counterpoint to the one that you were just talking about. It says it is important to respect ourselves and to avoid self put downs and self pity. It is helpful to take ownership of our own story and to take credit for our progress and work in recovery.

[00:47:20] Valerie: yeah.

[00:47:21] Spencer: Yes. And so not obvious to so many of us. Like, it's okay for me to put myself down. I can't put you down, but I can put myself down and it's no, actually I don't want to do that either. I,

[00:47:36] Valerie: right, right.

[00:47:38] Spencer: You know, respect others and yourself. Ooh.

[00:47:42] Valerie: Yeah. And that's where the mistake comes in, right? If I make a mistake, like I don't have to add guilt and shame on top of that, like it's totally okay to just say, Hey, I made a mistake, and give myself the same grace I would give anybody else, right?

[00:47:56] Spencer: Yes. It's so much easier, for me, I think to give other people grace than to give it to myself. Yeah.

[00:48:02] Valerie: Yeah.

[00:48:03] Spencer: And then we have. Anonymity is our spiritual foundation, whom you see here, what you hear here when you leave here, let it stay here.

[00:48:11] Valerie: Yeah.

[00:48:12] Spencer: that, I think is something that is in common to really all of the 12 step programs that I'm familiar with at least. And has to be.

[00:48:21] Valerie: It does. In order to be able to share at the level of vulnerability that people share, that is absolutely necessary. And it teaches us that is necessary in our coupleship. One of the dysfunctional things that would happen is I would be vulnerable and I would share things then find that being used as a weapon somewhere down the line. Which just,

[00:48:42] Spencer: Oh

[00:48:42] Yes. In your coupleship,

[00:48:45] Valerie: yeah. That just

[00:48:46] Spencer: the things you say in the meetings,

[00:48:49] Valerie: Yeah.

[00:48:49] Spencer: 'em there. Ooh.

[00:48:51] Valerie: yes.

[00:48:52] Spencer: That would be so hard. Just saying, Ooh.

[00:48:58] Valerie: Yeah. But we get to practice listening again, even with starting the steps over in this new book. This week we met with our sponsorship couple to talk about denial. again, the process is to share, you write about denial in, in like times that I've been in denial, and I get to just share that and let it just rest. There's no conversation. Nobody gets to judge, nobody gets to say anything. You just admit it and let it just rest,

[00:49:23] Spencer: hard, hard, hard.

[00:49:24] Valerie: Yeah.

[00:49:25] Spencer: So I have a question. I went on the Recovering Couples Anonymous website and looked at the meeting finder, and there's exactly one meeting in Michigan, and it's on the other side of the state. It sounds like you have been fortunate enough to live where there's an in-person meeting you can go to.

[00:49:45] Valerie: there is not

[00:49:46] Spencer: No.

[00:49:47] Valerie: We participate in an online meeting. Our home group is based in California. It's hybrid. There are people in the rooms there, but we have been 100% remote. We do have a trip planned. Next month though, we're gonna be in California and we're making it a part of our trip to show up to that meeting in person.

[00:50:04] So

[00:50:04] Spencer: Cool.

[00:50:05] Valerie: I'm excited about that.

[00:50:06] Spencer: You've done all this work

[00:50:08] Valerie: Yeah.

[00:50:09] Spencer: With remote meetings and remote meeting with your sponsored couple.

[00:50:14] Valerie: Our sponsor, a couple is located in Maryland, so yes, everything has been remote.

[00:50:19] Spencer: It's good to hear that, that has worked for you, because that opens the opportunity of recovery to people all over the world and doesn't have to be limited by what you can find within driving distance.

[00:50:33] Valerie: Absolutely. And we served as the secretary couple for a six month period of time, which is something that's normally done by a couple that's in the room. We were the first to venture out and do that remotely. It had some challenges, but it worked just fine. And my husband and I both for our professions, work from home, so we're very comfortable and used to life being online.

[00:50:56] Spencer: I would like to ask, what you or you as a couple, might say to somebody who's considering RCA, like maybe myself.

[00:51:05] Valerie: Yeah, I would say like they do in our rooms, come to at least six meetings before you decide if joining RCA and even working the steps is something that would be right for you. There is a pattern to the meeting schedule, certain couples share on certain things. The first Sunday meeting of the month is usually on the step of the month. Other meetings, people can just pick a topic out of the book. If you show up and we happen to be discussing like a tradition or something and you're new, that may not make a whole lot of sense to

[00:51:38] Spencer: Yes.

[00:51:39] Valerie: You might struggle to make connection there, which is why it's important to come back and try a couple different meetings. 'cause flavor is different, right?

[00:51:46] Yeah.

[00:51:48] Spencer: Earlier you talked about your experience in Al-Anon, where you sat by the door and ran out right at the end of the meeting

[00:51:57] And I was thinking about my own experience. The meeting that I found first, and it was my home group for a decade or so, had a beginner's meeting following the regular meeting. I'm pretty sure the first week I was there I did not stay for the beginner's meeting, but I did stay for it in some subsequent weeks and I'm feeling like that helped pull me more into the community of the group. Because I had an opportunity to have more of a conversation with a couple of members of the group and start to make that connection. So now I'm thinking about other meetings that I participate in that, that have not done this, don't do this. And wondering, we say, gee, people come for a meeting and they're like, yeah, this is great, Al-Anon. And then we never see them again.

[00:52:56] Valerie: Yeah.

[00:52:57] Spencer: And now I'm thinking, what are things that I could do, we could do in the meeting to, maybe, help people to better experience the value and the healing that we found? I don't know. It's like, hmm, have to think about that.

[00:53:13] Valerie: Yeah. The RCA group that we belong to or that we attend, they're very welcoming. If there are newcomers in the room, people are very quick to reach out in the chat to say, here's my number. Stay afterwards if you want to talk. So I'm not aware if there's any beginner groups for RCA, but I just know that in my experience, people were very welcoming. We had multiple, couples reach out to us the first couple meetings, and offer to have a meeting of four, where they could give us a little background about their journey, and try to get to know us a little bit. I think all of that effort is really helpful in helping newcomers to feel welcome.

[00:53:54] Spencer: Okay. we're gonna take a short break from talking about recovery, but we'll come back to that and talk about how recovery works in our daily lives.

Song 1

[00:54:04] Spencer: I asked you to bring music. Can you tell me about the first song you chose?

[00:54:08] Valerie: Sure. The first song is by Rob Thomas, and it's called The Man to Hold the Water. In fact, I've got a couple of, songs specifically from Rob Thomas, he's one of my faves. I had to look up what was meant by the man to hold the water, 'cause I wasn't totally sure what the meaning meant. What I learned was that in this song, it means someone who accepts the burdens and commitments of his life, even when he might not feel prepared. Like that describes me in life in general. I'm not sure I'm prepared, but I'll go along.

[00:54:40] The first line say where you go, I will follow. Where you are, I will be. When you're lost, I will find you. And when you fall, fall on me.

[00:54:48] I feel like that's from the perspective of my higher power, always with me and wanting me to trust and lean on that truth.

[00:54:55] And then he says, I've never been the man to hold the water. I thought of how a life like that could be. Where you go, I will follow. And where you are, I will be. I would see other people living differently or maybe not having some of these cares or concerns or anxieties that I had. And I wanted that. I just didn't quite know how to do that. It then says that where you go, I will follow through this life and in between. The road is long. Alone is longer. Most of I is you and me.

[00:55:23] I feel like this is where the song is like, Hey, like higher power is within me, which means I'm never really alone if I'm willing to embrace my own self truth, right? I can learn to comfort myself. I can learn what my needs are and figure out how to get those met.

[00:55:39] Looking back on every false horizon, I thought I knew the better part of me. Where you go, I will follow. And where you are, I will be.

[00:55:47] That reminds me of just me chasing this external validation that I thought that I needed to establish my self-worth. And realizing that I really didn't need to do all of that. The words then shift and it says where I go, you will follow. Where I've been, you may be. And when this life is hard to swallow, close your eyes and call on me.

[00:56:07] To me, that is program, right? Let it begin with me. Reason things out with someone else in program. Share our experience, strength, and hope because I might have been somewhere that someone is now. And sharing that experience, strength and hope can help them get through that. That's what this song does for me.

Our Lives in Recovery

[00:56:31] Spencer: In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery. How have we experienced recovery recently?

[00:56:39] You mentioned financial difficulties, and like having couple meetings every week, and once a month more in depth.

[00:56:49] You know, finances is still one of those places where, I am a lot more comfortable about it than I used to be. But I still would rather put it under the rug and not have to pay attention to it. Which of course often leads to suddenly having to pay attention to it, which is not good. That happened to us this month. We had a lot of, I won't say unexpected expenses, but expenses that were in addition to normal living. And when the credit card bill came, we're like, how much? We don't have that much, or it's very close to the amount we have in our checking account and we have other expenses. This month also the annual property tax bill is due. I have long-term care insurance, which is due. We had to do an expensive repair on one of our cars. So like, oh my God, we're in trouble. And I haven't had that feeling in a long time. Okay. Awareness. Awareness of the problem. This is horrible. We have some savings. We could move money from savings, but we'd like to keep an emergency fund available, obviously. I'm gonna start social security next month, so that money's not available right away. And I had to go into some of the money that I inherited from my parents and pull out a significant chunk of it, so we can cover these bills, which we weren't prepared for.

[00:58:31] Luckily, with everything online, I can go into the accounts and, well, one of 'em, I had to call 'em on the phone. There's no way to set up the withdrawal online. You have to call 'em on the phone, and then they send a DocuSign and fill it in and send it back and everything happens within a couple of days now. It's so much more efficient than it used to be. No mailing paper checks across the country and everything, but still I had to use my recovery program, to reduce the level of panic, to understand that yes, we can resolve this. It's not life threatening, and that, yeah, we really need to pay more attention on an ongoing basis rather than just hoping that it'll work out, which this month it didn't.

[00:59:17] I think that's the big thing for me. And it actually connects very nicely to something we talked about a little earlier, or you talked about, in particular, in the episode. So that's what I've got for this one.

[00:59:29] Valerie: Okay, great. No, that's great. And as as you're talking, our need for a financial agreement really had more to do in how we were communicating and the transparency of our finances and going about it in a way where I'm not just deferring to my husband and he's also being open to doing things differently so that I can participate. In the past, I just deferred to him. And then when things weren't going well in our relationship, that really left me feeling financially insecure just not knowing, a whole lot about where things were and if I needed to be on my own, how I was going to be able to do that.

[01:00:11] There's a whole lot of feelings and emotion and fear, wrapped up in those conversations, at least for me. And that contract helps us level set before we even get started to say, we're on the same page. We're doing this together. And we're gonna make every effort to make sure that both of us is comfortable and understand what is happening with our finances.

[01:00:31] I had a home group meeting right before we jumped on the podcast here and, there was a quote that they read from Courage to Change that just really put the nail in it for me today. It on page 1 91, it's July 9th, and it says, I can't cope with something unless I acknowledge its reality. When I'm willing to look at the whole picture, I take the first step toward a more manageable life. The quote says, if you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost. That is where they should be. Now, put the foundation under them.

[01:01:05] I feel like that totally paints the picture of our work in RCA, right? Like we, we originally had, or I had set my hopes on like this fairytale love story that we were gonna have. We're both professionally successful. Like we're really smart. We can navigate anything that comes along. And then we went about proving that even that can fail, right?

[01:01:28] Spencer: Yes.

[01:01:28] Valerie: it all depends upon the foundation on which you build that fairytale. And so we're now going back and doing the hard work of putting the foundation underneath that. So that was amazing.

[01:01:40] I have an in-person Friday meeting that I went to, and the topics were choices and acceptance, which are always good reminders for me that I always have choices. And that I have to accept my imperfections and I have to accept that our coupleship is imperfect and that's okay. Thursday is when we did our denial work with our sponsor couple, and like I said, that was a good experience and is helping give an opportunity to talk about things that are still on my heart that I don't need anybody to react to. I just need to get them out so I can work through them. Interestingly enough our sunday RcA meeting last week was a story about a mother watching a child try to put shoes on her feet and the child is struggling. In the story the mother knows that the value is in that struggle and that she needs to just let the child figure it out on their own. And the lead couple was starting to share that story, my first reaction was like, oh, not this story again. And that gave me the opportunity to go, well, that's an interesting reaction. Why do I feel that way? And I realized, it's because I hate watching other people struggle. I would so need to step in and feel like it was my job to show that child the right way to put shoes on my feet. And like just that awareness alone and acceptance that, that is, is. My default, is program, right? It's program because then that gives me the opportunity to not act on my first thought, but to pause and use the program and do that differently. I just wanna say, I also, in my individual and Al-Anon, I have sponsees that I work with, and they're both on the fourth step and I do the fourth step with my sponsees. I learned so much from them, and the focus this week was responsibilities and attitude. So I feel like I've covered a whole lot of bases this week in program.

[01:03:38] Spencer: Wow. Yeah.

Upcoming in the podcast

[01:03:40] Spencer: Looking forward in the podcast, I'm gonna be having a conversation with one of the podcast listeners who've stepped up about dating, before recovery and in recovery. We welcome your thoughts. I know that we've had at least a couple requests to touch on this topic where I said, I have no experience. Okay. You know, I've been married for 41 years, together for almost 45. So I haven't been dating for a long time, and certainly not after I found recovery. So I'm really glad to, to have other voices. If you have experience you wanna share, you can join our conversation. Leave us a voicemail or send us an email with your feedback or your questions.

[01:04:27] And Valerie, how can people send us feedback or questions?

[01:04:31] Valerie: You can send a voice memo or email to feedback at the recovery dot show, or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 7 3 4 7 0 7 8 7 9 5. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer.

[01:04:51] We'd love to hear from you. Share your experience, strength, and hope, or your questions about today's topic of step 12 in RCA or any of our upcoming topics, including dating before and in recovery. If you have a topic you'd like us to talk about, let us know.

[01:05:08] If you would like advance notice for some of our topics so that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback at the recovery dot show. Put email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.

[01:05:21] Spencer: Our website is the recovery dot show, and we have all the information about the show, which is, as I say, mostly the notes for each episode. Since a few months ago, I'm also including a transcript in those show notes. It's hidden. You have to click on a little, angle thing to open it up, but you can get a full transcript of the episode if that's helpful to you. We also have links to the books and other literature that we read from, which will include several of the RCA resources, and videos for the music that Valerie chose. You can also find links to some other recovery podcasts and websites, on our website.

Song 2

[01:06:03] Spencer: Again, I asked you to bring music that has spoken to your recovery. And what is the second song that you brought us?

[01:06:10] Valerie: The second song is also by Rob Thomas. It is called Little Wonders. The words say, let it go, let it roll right off your shoulder. Don't you know the hardest part is over? Let it in, let your clarity define you. 'cause in the end, we will only just remember how it feels.

[01:06:27] I love the reference to clarity there. That defines me today, dressed in program and it's all about feeling my feelings and remembering, but working through it, moving on, just letting it roll from here on out. Our lives are made in these small hours, these little wonders, these twists and turns of fate. Time falls away, but these small hours, these small hours still remain.

[01:06:51] I feel like the most impactful moments are my life. And the points that have higher power written all over them, like the moment when I was trying to meditate. They are wondrous twists in terms of fate that I could not have imagined. And then lastly, let it slide. Let your troubles fall behind you. Let it shine till you feel it all around you. And I don't mind if it's me you need to turn to. We'll get by. It's the heart that really matters in the end.

[01:07:17] This just reminds me to let go and let God. How important is it. Just for today? It's another reference to like our heart being our inner higher power that holds the answers to all of our troubles.

[01:07:28]

Listener Feedback

[01:07:36] Spencer: Now let's hear from you.

[01:07:38] Tom writes, hi Spencer, in a voicemail you played in episode 4 39 on step 12, someone mentioned WA Workaholics Anonymous. Although Al-Anon was my first program starting over 30 years ago, it was my issues with workaholism over 10 years later, that really brought me to my knees and got me to fully engage with the 12 steps.

[01:07:58] Since then, the two programs together have been foundational for my recovery, and I found they often work in parallel. Many of my work issues have to do with trying to please or control people, which started for me because of growing up in an alcoholic family and needing or wanting to be special to compensate for absent parents contributed to my perfectionism, which I found to be a common challenge for many in both Al-Anon and WA.

[01:08:23] Perfectionism feeds the spiritual malady of trying to play God in both family and work, which stands in the way of a healthy, spiritual condition. As my sponsor once said, scratch the surface of a workaholic, and you'll find an Al-Anon underneath In gratitude, Tom in Northern California.

[01:08:40] Thanks Tom for writing. Tom offered to contribute to such an episode and I will be reaching out for that.

[01:08:47] Angelina left us a voicemail along with a little email introduction. She writes, I feel like I'm both new and old to recovery. My first self-declared alcoholic boyfriend introduced me to Al-Anon at 16 years old. I am 51 this year. Every serious relationship I've had has been with an addict of one kind or another. Not to mention the family of origin.

[01:09:10] I'm really trying to start step work, but it's hard finding a sponsor. There is a Blueprint for Progress meeting on the Al-Anon app, so at least I can try that. For the last three years I've been going to meetings and listening to speaker talks. I know it's slow motion. Progress not perfection. I'm here. Okay, enough babbling. I hope the poem speaks to someone.

[01:09:31] Angelina: Hi Spencer, this is Angelina. I'm finally calling after years of listening to you. I first started listening to you when I started going to Al-Anon. I started with online meetings, 'cause I was more or less a single mom and I couldn't just leave the house at night to go to a meeting.

[01:09:48] When I wasn't listening to my meetings, I started listening to your show. I had a little earpiece, and whenever things got crazy, I would just turn it on and start listening to you. Your voice became a relaxing mantra. I knew that I would get information that was gonna help me. Funny. I was listening to it out of order, originally. I just picked whatever sounded good and listened to it, and sometimes I listened to the same show over and over and over, and at some point I decided to listen from the beginning and because I'd always listened to them out of order and because you have all sorts of different speakers. It never really occurred to me, but I, of course, fell in love with your original cast of Kelly and Swetha and you. Even then I was listening to a lot of them over and over again. So it took me a long time to get up to the point when they left. I was so, I'm shocked I didn't see it coming. It took me a minute and it seemed like it took you a minute too, but you kept on going and I can't tell you how grateful I am that this show exists.

[01:10:57] Anyways, I have two things to share. One is I used to read, Sue Grafton with my grandmother. We were both mystery readers and I recently started Kinsey and Me.

[01:11:11] I had no idea. But, the author grew up in an alcoholic household and she tells her story a little bit at the end of the book and then includes these short stories, of two sisters that grow up in an alcoholic household. And one parent is functional and one is not. But they're both alcoholics.

[01:11:32] I grew up with a single mom. She was very functional, and also has very addictive behaviors and maybe some mental illness as well. That definitely affected my childhood and growth. Anyways, the title of the short story was A Woman Capable of Anything, and that's how I always saw my mom. She always taught me to dream big and I do.

[01:11:55] Anyway, she talks about her and it's pretty depressing, but you see this woman and she's getting worse and worse, and then she goes off to the hospital and they clean her up and get her sober and feed her. And she becomes this whole new person that everybody loves. It's that cycle of greatness and the really, really good highs and the really, really bad lows.

[01:12:19] At the end, she says, and Kit sat in her mother's rocking chair, caught up in the cycle of her own. Of love, of pity, of hate. And she knew her mother was lost and strong and she knew that somewhere the thunder rang from chords still sounding inside. But how would this woman ever be free and how would she let Kit go? How would any of them be whole again, when they'd gone down together so often into that little death?

[01:12:49] I shared it with my meeting and they really liked it.

[01:12:52] I wanna read a poem that I wrote recently. My partner. I went overseas to help in Ukraine, when that all first started. And that was when I first decided to go to Al-Anon. 'cause I decided, that I could leave, but that I would just replace him with somebody else, just like him. And, that I had been doing that my whole life. So I decided to try something else. And that was Al-Anon. I hope this shows growth from those days.

[01:13:24] You won't know it was your last, is the title.

[01:13:28] I miss you. I'll miss you. I miss you. I'll miss you when you leave us for your last drink. I'll miss you when you don't make it home after your healing day of me time. I'll miss you when you don't make it home from a night of cards. I'll miss you when your body gives up. I'll miss you when I accept that following you around. To be your keeper doesn't work and I don't. I'll miss you, when your anger gets the better of you and it costs you more than you thought it could, I'll miss you when you think that you are not enough.

[01:14:12] I'll miss you when you give up. I'll miss you when your words hurt past what an apology can repair. I'll miss you when you destroy your relationship with your daughter. I will miss you when there's not another chance. I'll miss you when you can't make a deal with all the gods you don't believe in. I'll miss you when it's too late. I miss you now, but I know I'll miss you even more when the shelf life is reached and there's not a place to move forward from. I wish you served a different master. Maybe if your last drink is life altering and brings the pain and sorrow instead of the joy I hoped for, I'll have a drink to you. I know how you'll love the irony.

[01:15:09] I remember when I believed you would always choose to keep me safe and sound that I was the tip top of your list. As my protector, my person, that I was so sure that there would be no duplications of your experiences that had caused you so much childhood trauma. I miss you. I love you. I wish you the magic of healing love when I'm not wishing you gone. May the broken roads we've traveled, see smooth paths ahead.

[01:15:43] Thank you for all you do. Thank you for everybody who has been on the show in the past and all the people that are to come. It's amazing and I so appreciate it. Have a great day. Thanks.

[01:15:57] Spencer: Thank you, Angelina, for sharing your experience, strength, and hope, and for sharing your poem. And I downloaded the book Kinsey and Me from my library and have started reading it. I started with the stories at the end, which is, I don't know how loosely or tightly based on Sue Grafton's experience growing up in an alcoholic home. But man, those were kind of rough to get through. The emotion and the situations in there, they don't match my life, but they really made me feel her life. My wife and I loved reading Sue Grafton's books and we were, you know, slightly disappointed when she died before she got to Z. She only made it to V, but you know, that's life, right?

[01:16:42] Got an email from Sima who writes, hello. I'm writing to thank you for this podcast that I just found about a month ago, and I'm currently listening to episode 31. I'm new to Al-Anon and I'm grateful to have found it and this podcast. I wanted to share that. During this episode, Spencer mentioned some collaborative episode that was number 4 25, her recovered, and your team was suggesting how far off that would be for the recovery show. Well, your latest post was episode 4 39. Congratulations to you and congratulations to those of us who listen to and benefit from your work and shares. It's a little overwhelming to think of how much catching up I need to do with your show, but because I drive a lot from my work, I get to listen to multiple episodes every day. I've learned so much from you and your guests already.

[01:17:27] You already feel like long distance friends. I agree with at least one person who commented on how funny you are. I haven't listened to any of your current episodes because I'm trying to go through in sequence. Maybe that is a reflection of how I'm trying to follow the process perfectly and in order, although I understand now there is no perfect in these episodes that I'm listening to. Suha is about a year into her program and I am a month in. It does help to hear someone who is relatively new, although she's further along in her growth. It's neat to think that she is now over 10 years into her program.

[01:17:59] You're helping me let go of my attempts to control things and you're helping me to acknowledge my higher power. I really didn't think that would ever happen because I have always identified myself as being absolutely not spiritual. I have also very overtly claimed to be terrible at self-care, but I am letting that part of my identity go.

[01:18:17] Again, I just really wanted to thank all of you and look forward to learning more. Warmest regards, sima.

[01:18:23] I did write back to Sima and said, you know, you really don't have to listen in order. We did do some sequences on the steps, on the traditions and on the concepts, but other than that, each episode really stands independently, unless, of course you want to hear how our program develops over the years.

[01:18:41] Beth left a comment on episode 4 39, step 12, a journey into spiritual awareness. This might be my favorite episode so far. How awake can I get? I love that idea as a spiritual goal. I've come to believe that every time I gain deeper understanding of something or have an aha moment, that is a spiritual awakening.

[01:19:02] I wanted to pass on a couple of things that may be helpful for the show links. The poem Eric read, I Asked God, was originally written by Claudia Minden Weisz, and published in 1980. She grew up in an alcoholic home and wrote the poem about her faith and resilience during difficult times.

[01:19:19] I also wanted to respond to David's email about our principles. I couldn't believe the timing of this episode and his email. Was it odd or was it God? I attend a meeting in which we read from our book, Having had a Spiritual Awakening. The book has been out of print for some time, but my group is fortunate enough to have secured enough copies to have on hand for our meeting. It's also currently available electronically in the Al-Anon bookstore. We just met on the principles found in the back of the book, so they were fresh in my mind and I wanted to share them with you. And pass on to David if appropriate.

[01:19:52] The working principles of Al-Anon. The basic ideas of Al-Anon, like those of Alcoholics Anonymous, are as old as recorded history. They're concepts on which all spiritual philosophies are based. These elements are acknowledgement of our dependence on a supreme being. Love for our fellow man, and recognition of his dignity and value. Awareness of the need to improve ourselves through self-appraisal and admitting to our faults. Belief in the effective spiritual power of true personal humility and conscious gratitude. Willingness to help others. The working philosophy of Al-Anon is a pattern for right living, for overcoming difficulties, and for helping us to achieve our aspirations.

[01:20:31] We come into Al-Anon to solve the specific problem of alcoholism and its disastrous effect on our lives. We apply the basic spiritual ideas by means of what we call the 12 Steps. These are reinforced by the 12 Traditions, by the Serenity Prayer, and by a group of concepts known simply as the slogans.

[01:20:49] And again, this is an excerpt from the Al-Anon book, Having Had a Spiritual Awakening, which you can find in the bookstore on Al-Anon dot org under electronic publications, and I will leave a link to that in the show notes at the recovery show slash four 40.

[01:21:09] Alexandra left a comment on episode four 11, Growth and Challenges in Al-Anon service. I find Eric's erudite dad jokes, so laugh out loud funny and on point. Honestly, it's so encouraging to witness both Eric and Spencer facing the shadow head on. So honestly, in such a vulnerable way, such a beautiful example of true strength. Good to know it exists somewhere on the planet.

[01:21:34] Well, thank you Alexandra. And passed this one and the previous one onto Eric.

[01:21:39] And that is it for this episode.

Thank you, Valerie

[01:21:41] .

[01:21:42] Spencer: Valerie, thank you for joining me today for our conversation about step 12 and particularly the Recovering Couples Anonymous program, which I had heard of, but knew very little about and I feel like I have a much better understanding of. What it is and how it might be helpful to me.

[01:22:03] So thanks.

[01:22:05] Valerie: Absolutely. My pleasure.

[01:22:07] Spencer: And I mean that literally, that is not a sarcastic thanks. Okay.

[01:22:10] Valerie: Yeah. No. Totally took it. Took it in a good way.

Song 3

[01:22:14] Spencer: And the last song you picked is,

[01:22:17] Valerie: So the last song that I picked, is by one Republic and it's called I Lived. and I will try to read this without crying, but when I hear this song, it is actually something that I want to say to my adult children.

[01:22:33] Hope when you take that jump, you don't fear the fall. Hope when the water rises, you built a wall. Hope when the crowd screams out, it's screaming your name. And hope if everybody runs, you choose to stay. I hope that you fall in love and it hurts so bad. The only way you can know is to give it all you have. I hope that you don't suffer, but take the pain and hope when the moment comes, you'll say, I did it all. I did it all. I own every second that this world could give. I saw so many places the things that I did. Yeah. With every broken bone, I swear I lived. Hope you're spend your days, but they all add up. And when the sun goes down, hope you raise your cup. I wish that I could witness all your joy and all your pain, but until my moment comes, I'll say I, I did it all. I did it all. I owned every second that this world could give. I saw so many places the things that I did, and yeah, with every broken bone, I swear I lived. To me, this really talks about the value embracing the pain that is inevitable in life. I've learned from your show, Spencer, that despair is optional. We use this program to help us through the painful points, but we don't have to suffer.

Outro

[01:23:58] Spencer: Thank you for listening and please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you are facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding, love, and peace, grow in you one day at a time.