[00:00:01] Spencer: Step 10 asks us to promptly admit it when we are wrong. How do we make this work in our life, in practice?

[00:00:08] Welcome to episode 436 of the Recovery Show. This episode is brought to you by Pete, Scott and Claire. They used the donation button on our website. Thank you, Pete, Scott, and Claire for your generous contributions. This episode is for you.

[00:00:24] We are friends and family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction, understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:44] Nancy L: Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program. During this show, we will share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you will find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:01:07] Spencer: My name is Spencer. I am your host today. Joining me today is Nancy. Welcome back to the Recovery Show, Nancy. And you reminded me that we recorded episode 377, whether the alcoholic is drinking or not, back in early 2022. So welcome back.

[00:01:24] Nancy L: Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.

Practicing Step 10

[00:01:27] Spencer: We are going to open with a reading you have from Hope for Today.

[00:01:32] Nancy L: Yep, I do. On page 1 73, June 21st.

[00:01:39] Step 10 continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it, reminds me that I have the right to be human. My sponsor tells me that God made me a perfect human being, not a perfect God. I certainly do engage regularly in a wide variety of human behaviors, making mistakes, harming others, and hurting myself.

[00:02:06] No matter how long I am in recovery, I'll never progress beyond being human. However, according to my human condition, it doesn't mean I have to live with the uncomfortable feelings, such as guilt and shame, which often go along with making human mistakes. Step 10 invites me to regularly keep a finger on my spiritual pulse so I can cooperate with God in my spiritual growth and healing.

[00:02:38] It says that if I do or say something wrong, I can stop, turn around, and do something different now. Step 10 invites me to grow up, be responsible, and make amends all for my own benefits. I take Step 10 because I want to be the best me I can be.

[00:02:58] Thought for today, when I continue to take personal inventory and amend my wrongs, I can live my life peacefully with God's other children.

[00:03:10] This step continues the process, which began with step four, being aware of the things we do and taking corrective measures without delay.

[00:03:20] Spencer: Thank you. You sent me an email with a story about acting out on step 10. Maybe we'll start with that.

[00:03:29] Nancy L: I had written you and said that it's amazing that after being in this program for as many years as I have, which is probably close to 30 years, I continue to come up short at times. And, as it says in this reading today, that I have the right to be human, which hit me tremendously. That God made me a human being not a perfect God. And I have to keep reminding myself of that. No matter how many years, no matter how much work, no matter how many meetings I go to, I have to be reminded daily that I am, not perfect.

[00:04:14] I had a situation where my son, who was my qualifier, my loved one, was visiting for a couple of days with my husband and I. He was home with my husband, and I was driving the car home. I was very close to home. I was coming over the causeway. My dog was in the front seat and got startled by something and jumped into my lap. As a result, I swerved. And the car went into the side of the causeway not doing any damage to the car, but the tire was absolutely demolished.

[00:04:53] I came home, I walked in the house and I said to my son, oh my God, I can't believe what just happened. I was driving over the causeway and out of the blue, the tire exploded and I lost control of the car. It went into the side and I have a horrible flat tire and I'm gonna have to have the car towed. He came out and he looked at the tire and he said, yeah, you did a great job to the tire, Mom. Went into my husband and told him the exact same story. Called the tow truck company. The tow truck company had to come take the car away and bring it to the tire place. It was an expensive situation with the cost of the tow truck and the new tire.

[00:05:38] And my husband kept saying to me, tell me again how this happened. Tell me again how this happened. And I kept insisting that this was how it happened, and that out of the blue, this tire just popped and blew up and caused this flat tire.

[00:05:57] The next day when we went to pick up the car, he said to the woman at the, tire company, have you ever heard of this before? And she said, I can't imagine how it happened. I have never heard this. It's hard for me to believe that this is how it happened.

[00:06:15] So that night. We're out to dinner, my husband and my son and I, and he confronted me again. And I got extremely upset. I was backed up against a wall, Spencer, like you can't believe. And I came out fighting and I got extremely mad. I said, you obviously don't believe me. You think I'm lying. You didn't even care whether I was all right or not. And I went bananas, handled myself horribly and went slamming into the bedroom, slammed the door.

[00:06:52] About 15 minutes later, he came in and he looked at me and he said, Nancy, you're lying. Are you lying? And I said, yes. And he said, I knew it. It just didn't sound right. I said to him, I am so sorry. I need to make an amends to you. I treated this so wrong. It was so inappropriate. I was not honest with you. I was not truthful. I turned it all on you and Steven and it was 100% my fault.

[00:07:32] And he said, why did you do it? I said, I did it because I didn't want you to think less of me. I didn't want you to think that because the dog was in the car in the front seat, which you don't like anyway, had jumped on me, I caused this to happen. I was so concerned how it made you feel about me.

[00:07:57] It brought me up so short. Because I thought to myself, A, haven't you come far enough that you don't do this, that, that you don't even come close to doing this? And B, are you not confident enough? Do you not have enough self worth and confidence in yourself that you can't say to your husband of all these years? You know what? The dog jumped in my lap. I didn't know what to do. The car went into the side. I have a flat tire, not a big deal.

[00:08:33] It was very, very upsetting to me that I handled it in that way and he couldn't have cared less about the tire. What he cared about is that I insisted that this was how it happened and that I accused him of not believing me.

[00:08:53] The good news, the only good news that came out of that is that I knew how to make amends, that I didn't continue it, that I had put up with this farce long enough that I said, I owe you an amends. I owe Steven an amends, and I am extremely sorry for my behavior.

[00:09:13] Spencer: How did you feel during that day or so when you were still living in the lie. It was the lie that you're making amends for eventually, right? Not the car accident.

[00:09:25] Nancy L: No, no. No, as he said, you know, big deal, it's a tire. You didn't destroy the car. You're fine. It's a tire, you know, you could have easily have told me. And I said to him, it goes back to feeling less than.

[00:09:45] And that is a tremendous character defect of mine. I run into these situations from time to time where I'm just not able to own up, and realize again, that I'm not perfect and that these things are going to happen. And he handled it so well in the sense of saying to me, you do 75% for me, and I do probably 25% for you. You couldn't do anything bad in my eyes. Which made me feel even worse.

[00:10:18] But, no, I didn't feel good about what I was doing and I wondered for that day, how long I was going to be able to continue this charade and not come clean. But the longer that I did do that, the longer I felt backed up against that wall, especially with my son there. Who is a recovering alcoholic with mental health issues, who has lied more times than you can shake a stick out over the years that he was dealing with substance abuse.

[00:10:51] So if anybody would understand, he would. And when I made the amends to him the next morning, he said to me, Mom, kind of welcome to my world. Do you know how many times I lied to you in my lifetime? I mean, this is not something that is shockingly new to me, and I'm sorry that you felt that you had to do that.

[00:11:16] Spencer: One of the things that I know how I would react, having lied about something and then feeling, as you say, backed up against the wall. I would react with anger as I think you did.

[00:11:31] Nancy L: Very much so.

[00:11:33] Spencer: And that speaks to what happens to us when we fall off the program.

[00:11:40] Nancy L: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:41] Spencer: After you made your amends to your husband and to your son, what was the change in how you felt?

[00:11:49] Nancy L: I think like so many times you hear from other people and read in our literature, that was very freeing. I felt obviously a lot better about it. I was filled with guilt and shame. But that was gone and I was so very appreciative of the fact that my husband and my son didn't come back at me again, which I don't think that they would, but maybe somebody else would.

[00:12:19] Spencer: Yeah.

[00:12:19] Nancy L: And bring it all up again. And why did you do it? Why did you do it? I just don't understand why you did it instead saying, okay, it's over. It's done. I appreciate what you had to say and let's move on. Which was, a relief. Very much so for me. I did come back and again, tell them how much I appreciated that and how much I loved them. I wanted them to know that. And that I would certainly strive not to do that, in any way, shape or form very often.

[00:12:53] But every once in a while, as we all say, this comes out. The good news is, is that I was able to recognize it and I was able to admit it, and I was able to say, I am wrong. At another time in my life before program, I would've continued this and I would have fought and fought. To make them understand or to try to make them understand that they were wrong and that I was right, and how dare they question what I was telling them. So, I have learned a great deal from that. But as I said to you in my voicemail to you, it brings me up short when I do something like this after all the years that I have been in program.

[00:13:48] Spencer: Yeah. I think the reading that you brought is perfect for that because we're human. We're not perfect. Maybe we've been made a perfect human being, but part of being human is making mistakes.

[00:14:03] Nancy L: Yeah.

[00:14:04] Spencer: I was thinking about times when I had a delay in making amends, or didn't realize that I needed to. It was a while ago. I was with a bunch of Al-Anon friends. We were having some kind of a afternoon gathering picnic thing. One of the people there was like, I have to go home because something to do with her kid. I don't remember the details now. And I was kind of teasing her about that, saying. I don't remember exactly what I was saying, but later, I think later that same day, another friend texted me and said, that felt really inappropriate. What was up there that didn't seem like the Spencer that I know. At that point I said, thank you for bringing that up. I'm gonna have to think about this. I'm going to think about what happened and why. This actually was one of the first experiences where I really deliberately and explicitly worked the earlier steps on this particular problem.

[00:15:07] I spent quite some time thinking about what was my motivation, what was I trying to do, what feelings was I working from, and one of those that still pops up now and then it still does, is I want people to like me, right?

[00:15:26] Nancy L: Exactly.

[00:15:27] Spencer: One of the ways that that comes out for me is this sort of teasing behavior. Hey, we're really good friends. So I can say this thing to you that would maybe be offensive if I was just saying it to a random person, but since we're such good friends, I can do that. We were not that good friends. Okay? This was an illusion in my head or something. I had to think about that, do the whys. What was I feeling? What was I trying to accomplish? What outcome was I looking for? And after I spent some time doing inventory on that incident, I wrote an apology. Trying very hard to not JADE, justify, argue, defend, explain. I just apologized for the way that I had interacted with her that afternoon. I think I ran it by the friend who brought it up to me in the first place. 'cause why not get a second set of eyes on there.

[00:16:33] Nancy L: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:34] Spencer: And I sent it and I did not get any response. And when I saw the person next at a meeting, we were neutral. And I felt like I did what I could.

[00:16:49] The important part of it for me was, from the point of view of working the principles of the program. When it was brought to my attention that this was not appropriate behavior. I did take the time to consider what was going on, and what form of amends might be appropriate. And then to act that.

[00:17:11] Nancy L: Yeah, you said the word motive. I think that comes into play so many times when we're in a situation like this. A what is your motive? What was your motive there? And B, what were your expectations? You apologized in a text or whatever to this person. They didn't respond. Was your expectation that they were going to write you back and say, oh my gosh, thank you so much for, getting back to me. No problem. I'm so glad you, reached out. And as a result, not hearing from them, were you disappointed.

[00:17:49] Spencer: I think that I consciously did not set an expectation of any kind of response. I knew that I just needed to do what I could to try to clean up my side of the street. And what they did with that was theirs, not mine.

[00:18:07] So yes, I was a little bit nervous at the next meeting when that person was there and I didn't get anything back then, but it felt like we're okay with each other, and we didn't need to go any further on it.

[00:18:22] One of the things that I find is very helpful. When I identify a step 10 incident, let's call it that, when I make a mistake when I'm wrong, is to do a little bit of inventory to really understand what is acting in me that caused that to happen.

[00:18:43] Nancy L: exactly.

[00:18:44] Spencer: Which of my character defects was acting up that moment.

[00:18:48] Nancy L: yeah. I didn't wanna look foolish. I didn't want to admit that the dog was on my lap in the front seat, which is probably not the safest thing in the world. As you said, it's 100% people pleasing. I didn't want to look any less than who I was and who I wanted them to think I was. That's where I get myself in trouble. I try so hard to be somebody that I might not necessarily be as comfortable being, because I think that's what they would like.

[00:19:24] Spencer: Yes, yes. Oh my God, yes.

[00:19:28] I wrote some thought questions here. I don't know if these are helpful or not. A time when doing your step ten amends was easy. We already talked about one when it was hard and you didn't admit it right away and didn't immediately, as it says in this step, promptly, it says promptly, doesn't it?

[00:19:45] Nancy L: Right. Right.

[00:19:47] Spencer: And, how that felt. Gratefully, it worked out for you.

[00:19:51] In my case, I was pretty prompt, once I was informed of the thing that I needed to potentially make amends for. I didn't recognize it at the time, and I'm not sure that I would have recognized it without this friend pointing it out to me.

[00:20:10] Nancy L: Interesting.

[00:20:11] Spencer: you know, because I thought, I was just being friendly,

[00:20:16] Nancy L: Yep. But I, I think when you say when is it easy? It's never easy. I'm not sure easy is even the correct word. I find that when I am in a meeting, when I am surrounded by my Al-Anon friends, the people in the program, the people who work the program, my son who works, his program, where I know that when I make an amends, I'm not being judged, I'm not being criticized, I'm not being thought any differently of. It is easier, if we can use that word. It's more comfortable to make an amends to people who get it. Who have been in the same situation, who are in the same situation, who are sitting there and know me backwards and forwards. And I can sit in a meeting and look at the people around that table and say, what I need to say and feel safe, totally safe.

[00:21:18] Spencer: yes.

[00:21:19] Nancy L: I didn't feel safe. It was my defect, but I didn't feel safe being honest with my husband and my son. Because it was more important to me at that moment that they not think I did something wrong and that it was the tire that blew up and I had no control over it.

[00:21:40] Spencer: right.

[00:21:42] So I am still in the middle of a thing where I'm pretty sure I need to make amends. I'm not sure. I think I probably do, but I haven't. About a week ago I was talking with a neighbor about a local issue. I was expressing my opinion of this local issue very strongly. Sort of condemning people who were on the other side of the issue. Condemning is a very strong word, but that's effectively what I was doing.

[00:22:12] I was saying these people have this motivation for being on the other side of the issue that I just feel is wrong. I said, I think this is what their motive is and I don't like it. And I said it probably a little more strongly that I'm saying it right now. This conversation was prompted by some yard signs that were across the street. The next day, I'm walking around the block and I noticed that he has that same sign in his front yard. And I'm like, oh, geez, did I effectively condemn him with those words? Did I impute a motivation to him that he doesn't have? And how's he feeling about me? ‘ cause it's all about me. Right? And for several days, every time I walked past their yard and saw the sign, I had this sort of guilt feeling about what I had said. I've been thinking about what is an appropriate way to make amends for that. Because I have my opinion, I expressed my opinion. I, I'm not gonna go and say, well, I didn't really think that. I think what I want to do is ask him, so tell me why you have this sign. What are you feeling? What are you thinking? And try to just receive, like we do in a meeting.

[00:23:38] Nancy L: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:40] Spencer: To say I'd, I'd like to understand, because obviously I have some feelings about this, but I may be totally misunderstanding other people's motivation on this.

[00:23:52] I feel like I should talk to him. But it's the whole thing. Like I don't want him to feel badly of me, so I'm not talking to him, which could help, repair if there's any damage to the relationship. It's one of those crazy emotional, somewhat fear-based people pleasing things. Right.

[00:24:09] Nancy L: Right,

[00:24:10]

[00:24:10] Spencer: And it's not comfortable right now.

[00:24:14] We've had a couple of neutral interactions about his daughters watering our plants while we're out of town, and, those have gone just fine. But I really need to, next time I see 'em out on the sidewalk to say, look, I expressed myself pretty strongly about these signs, but I'd really like to understand your point of view on that.

[00:24:34] Nancy L: Yeah, I think the last time that I was on with you, we talked about the isms of the disease, and I find over and over and over again that when I'm in any kind of a conversation, especially with my son, and I keep it in the “I”. We learn this all the time in the program. Every time I would say, you need to understand this, or you did this, or, you didn't act correctly in this, it drove a wall between the two of us that was very hard to break down.

[00:25:13] Keeping it in the “I”. You own your feelings. Those are your feelings and you own them, and nobody can tell you, you can't feel the way you feel. So I start so many conversations with, it's important for you to know how I feel about this. You may not agree, you may not, feel the same way that I do, but it's important that I express how I feel.

[00:25:45] And I think that that takes the onus off of them, and I think it frees them to say, wow, they're willing to listen. They're willing to hear what I have to say. Instead of coming at them. We're kind of, as you said, meeting them halfway and saying, help me understand why you're doing what you're doing, or you feel the way you feel because it's important that you know how I feel.

[00:26:16] Spencer: And that is not, I think, human nature. For many of us at least, it's not most people's first choice, right?

[00:26:26] Nancy L: No, no. But it's so much healthier and it's less toxic. And arguments or confrontations, or whatever you wanna call them, can become extremely toxic. And before you know it, what you originally were disagreeing about has escalated to such an entirely different level that you forgot what you even started talking about.

[00:26:51] If I'm in a conversation with somebody, I will say, this is my thoughts, this is my opinion. This absolutely doesn't have to be your opinion, but it's important that, I feel that blah, blah, blah.

[00:27:06] Then you just see this look on people's faces that's like, okay, she's willing to listen to me. Even if I don't agree with her, she's willing to listen to me because she's not judging me and criticizing me and saying, no, no, no, your opinion isn't the same as mine. Therefore you're wrong.

[00:27:30] This man has a reason for whatever he's doing. And I think as human beings, we owe them the courtesy of hearing them out. And he may have something to say to you that you never thought of before, and you would, automatically go, well, I never thought of it that way.

[00:27:51] Spencer: It's entirely possible. I think getting back to the step 10 part of it, right now, I have this low level of unease, sort of every time I think about him, like that is hurting me a whole lot more than it's hurting him. I'm pretty sure.

[00:28:10] Nancy L: Absolutely. You are not feeling any more comfortable or that you've come out ahead on this,

[00:28:16] Spencer: Nope, which is what Step 10 is all about. It's not only keeping. As we like to say, our side of the street clean, but it's also about keeping our emotional set clean in a sense.

[00:28:31] That's the beauty and the power of that step.

[00:28:35] Nancy L: Spencer, you've been in this program a long time and isn't it interesting that you're struggling with this too?

[00:28:44] Spencer: I am still human. I'm still human. I think it was in the last episode, Pat said, practice makes progress

[00:28:54] Nancy L: absolutely, I wrote that down.

[00:28:56] Spencer: and the more I can keep practicing this, the less often I need to do it, you know?

[00:29:05] Nancy L: yep,

[00:29:06] Spencer: Or I do it right away.

[00:29:08] Nancy L: Yes. I'm a big journaler and I journal a lot, and I have been journaling about this. It helps me to get it out of my head and put it down on paper and then be able to go back and look at what I wrote and remember how I felt then and how I feel now. For me, and again, it's not for everybody, but for me, I probably have 27, 28 journals that I've written since I started on this journey. I don't throw them away and I keep them because it's important for me to go back and look at where I've been and hope that where I've been is not where I am now.

[00:29:55] Spencer: I've been hearing a number of people talking about the power of writing and writing by hand. When I've been able to do that, definitely have experienced that. Here's a quote from a woman, Naomi Shihab Nye, who is, interviewed in On Being, and she said, rarely do you ever hear anyone say, they write things down and feel worse.

[00:30:25] Nancy L: I 100% agree.

[00:30:27] Spencer: The thing that I've noticed about writing, and I, I really do think somehow writing by hand is different than typing it into a computer or

[00:30:37] Nancy L: Yes. Yes.

[00:30:40] Spencer: is the train of thought that's being expressed in the writing sometimes goes places that I didn't expect it to.

[00:30:46] Nancy L: And what does that mean?

[00:30:47] Spencer: What does that mean? I see that as my higher power trying to talk to me.

[00:30:53] Nancy L: I see.

[00:30:55] Spencer: The times when I've done the steps, been generally working with paths to recovery and so there's all those questions. I've always bought a new blank journal, something with a nice cover and good paper, and write out my answers to those questions in long hand because yes, I did learn how to write script 'cause I'm that old,

[00:31:21] Nancy L: Mm-hmm. Me too.

[00:31:23] Spencer: I feel like there's, there is, there's a real power in doing that.

[00:31:27] Nancy L: Well, as I said, it makes it real. You know what I mean? It's not make believe, you're not going back and reading it and going, oh, I didn't make that up. It really happened.

[00:31:39] Spencer: It makes it real in another sense that, for me, as long as something is only in my head, it has a certain unreality to it.

[00:31:49] Nancy L: Yes.

[00:31:51] Spencer: and if I get it out of my head by telling it to another person, by writing it down. I don't have a good sort of conversational relationship with my higher power. So, writing it down is a way that I can feel that I am telling it to maybe myself, maybe my higher power, and making it real and then, I can do something with it.

[00:32:18] Nancy L: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:32:19] Spencer: I found this when I was working the inventory step, in particular, it's really easy to just sort of something in my head and it goes away and it's gone. But if I write it down, then I have to acknowledge it.

[00:32:33] Nancy L: Exactly, that's the word. Acknowledge it. Yep. I've written letters to my higher power. I've written letters to my anxiety. A couple of times. Literally, We're gonna get through this together. We're gonna be friends. We're not enemies. Whatever it took, I have written letters. I've been advised by my sponsor to do that several times, and that is very freeing. Boy, that works very well for me. And I'm able to go back and read those over and over again.

[00:33:05] I feel a true sense that I'm being heard. Whether it's by my inner self, whether it's by my higher power, I don't know. But it makes it real. It's not in my head. It makes it real and it needs to be said, and it's important enough that it needs to be said and put down on paper.

[00:33:29] Spencer: Anything you wanna close with here, put a bow on it as a friend of mine would say.

[00:33:35] Nancy L: As I said to you before, I think these 9, 10, 11 steps, even 12, really, all play into each other so well, and they flow so well. I feel that if we really, really work these steps, especially, the nine and 10 and making amends, and really taking our inventory similar to a step four, that we are able to have so much more of a spiritual awakening.

[00:34:04] And that is for me, so terribly, terribly important, to have that spiritual awakening, to know that I am not alone, to know that my higher power is walking with me every single day, every step of the way, and doesn't get mad at me and doesn't judge me, and doesn't say, oh my God, Nancy, you were so wrong. But gently nudges me into doing what is the right thing to do.

[00:34:34] Spencer: Wow. Thank you for that.

Song 1

[00:34:36] Spencer: You brought some music.

[00:34:39] Nancy L: Yep.

[00:34:39] The first song I picked was, A Better Man by Taylor Swift. Some of the words really spoke to me. It says, I know I'm probably better off on my own, than loving a man who didn't know what he had when he had it. And I see the permanent damage you do to me. Never again. I just wish I could forget when it was magic. But your jealousy, oh, I can hear it now. Talking down to me like I'd always be around, push my love away, like it was some kind of loaded gun. Oh, you never thought I'd run.

[00:35:22] Which is really kind of a metaphor for recovery and finding peace, especially after turmoil. Moving forward, and healing. I felt that this song, those couple of lyrics and those phrases, spoke to that.

[00:35:40]

Our Lives in Recovery

[00:35:48] Spencer: In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery. How have we been experiencing recovery recently?

[00:35:56] Well, there's a bunch of things going on in Al-Anon as a whole. I don't know how much you've been aware of this, but in 2024, the World Service Conference made a decision about policy for naming groups. That group names should not include identifiers such as men or women or LGBT, people of color, parents, children, because they felt that would discourage people from attending a meeting. And our third tradition says the only requirement for membership is that there be a problem of alcoholism in a relative or friend.

[00:36:40] They said, this is what we think. We're gonna establish this policy. The World Service Office took that and ran a little further with it than the conference had intended, and said existing meetings are gonna need to change their names also. I don't know how things have been in your meetings, but in a couple of my meetings, people really did not like this.

[00:37:07] Apparently those were not the only people, because at this year's World Service Conference in 2025, they apparently talked about this issue on all four days.

[00:37:19] Nancy L: Wow.

[00:37:20] Spencer: They came out with a statement that says, okay, we're gonna rescind this policy for now and we wanna hear from you. Our delegate brought this document back to the area assembly, gave it to all of the group representatives with the hope that groups would be able to talk about this issue, probably during their business meeting, during their group conscience meeting. Then give feedback back, to the delegate who can bring it back to the World Service Conference next year, so that hopefully they can make a policy that is more in line with how the people in the groups are feeling about this.

[00:38:03] Nancy L: Wow.

[00:38:04]

[00:38:04] Nancy L: Is the first I'm hearing about this. Absolutely the first.

[00:38:08] Spencer: Yeah, if you're not involved in the activities of Al-Anon at the district, area and world service level, you might not have been aware of this, until you tried to start a meeting that you called it Women's Morning Serenity,

[00:38:25] Nancy L: I

[00:38:25] Spencer: and they would say, sorry, you can't use the word women in the name of your group. Well now they're not gonna do that, at least for a year.

[00:38:33] Nancy L: Okay.

[00:38:34] Spencer: You might ask your group representative, like, have you heard about this yet?

[00:38:38] Nancy L: Yes, I will. Absolutely. 'cause I'm there every week and we have group conscience, and we have business meetings, and we have a group rep and nothing has ever come up.

[00:38:48] Spencer: Yeah. Well, some people, either they don't know about it or they think it's fine. Which, you know, that's what we need to figure out.

[00:38:56] When we look at the structure of Al-Anon, the first concept of service says that the ultimate authority rests with the groups. It's this sort of inverted pyramid structure with the, the groups at the top, and it gets smaller and smaller until you get down to the World Service office at the bottom.

[00:39:15] So that's something I've been thinking about recently. And they wrote up a really nice document, to ask people for feedback. It's questions for discussion. Tradition three. The relatives of alcoholics when gathered together for mutual aid may call themselves an Al-Anon family group, provided that as a group, they have no other affiliation. The only requirement for membership is that there be a problem of alcoholism in a relative or friend.

[00:39:39] And then the question that they put with that is, do identifiers such as men, women, parents, et cetera in group names. Uphold this tradition. Why or why not? Wide open question.

[00:39:51] But there's also tradition four. Every group should be autonomous except in matters affecting another group or Al-Anon or AA as a whole. And the question that they give us is, how do identifiers in group names affect Al-Anon as a whole? Or do they?

[00:40:06] I got this because I was a group rep and apparently I'm still on the mailing list.

[00:40:12] Nancy L: I see. I see.

[00:40:13] Spencer: But I had heard about the policy change from friends who were really unhappy with it. Anyway, so that's one thing that's been going on. Al-Anon related , but I didn't tend to really talk that long about it.

[00:40:24] The other day our meeting topic was steps eight and nine, which is a meeting where we're kind of doing a book study on how Al-Anon works. We'll read a section of the book and then we'll share on that. This time we went, through steps eight and nine in the chapter on the 12 steps.

[00:40:42] I had just been talking about steps eight and nine and 10 in the podcast. And so, I brought some of what I had learned. Into my share in the meeting, you know? And I thought, well, this is nice. Often it goes the other way. Something happens in a meeting, I bring it to the podcast. Well, now something happened to the podcast and I brought it to the meeting.

[00:41:01] And finally, I have a service position in one of my meetings, which is I'm one of the two people that has a key to the, building that we meet in to open it up for the meeting. And I'm gonna be away for several weeks. And so, really had to make sure to reach out and say, this is what's happening. I'm gonna be gone. I am hoping that the other person who has a key is able to open the church on those days, or I could leave my key with somebody else in case he can't do it. He almost immediately wrote back and said, I got you covered.

[00:41:35] I did that well ahead to give people time to think about it and to be able to make arrangements if I needed to. That's something I've learned somehow in program is like, you can't just let things happen sometimes,

[00:41:48] Nancy L: It's funny, a couple of weeks ago when this situation happened that I talked about before, I went to my meeting on a Monday morning and nobody had signed up to lead, which is unusual. And, somebody said to me, Nancy, you're sitting right there at the front of the room, you lead. It was so interesting, Spencer, because that was exactly where I needed to be that day.

[00:42:14] It was like God said to me, sit in that seat, open your mouth. And it's important that you tell what's on your mind today and lead. And it was very cathartic for me. It was exactly as I said, the right time and the right place to do that.

[00:42:35] Sometimes you pass the calendar around and you sign up for a certain date and you work to, what is my topic gonna be? And, you know, plan for it and all. And then there's times when you really had no preparation , and you sit there after you've done your lead and topic and say, that came out better than when I planned for it, you know, for a couple of hours. So I think sometimes it works both ways. And I think that God very much has a role in that.

[00:43:05] You know, that, that he's got your back and he's, he's watching out for for what direction you're going in.

[00:43:13] Spencer: Well, how is recovery working in your life these days?

[00:43:17] Nancy L: I'm in a, in a tough position right now. We are in Florida, almost all the time. Always lived in Connecticut, sold our home in Connecticut. When we come up for the summer, for about the last 12 years we've rented, a home and it's always, you know, worked out really pretty well.

[00:43:39] We see some friends, we have one daughter who still lives up here and it's been a nice change and a nice change of pace for us. This year, we rented a different home. We arrived here probably 10 days ago and the house isn't even close to what we were expecting. I honestly thought we had walked in the wrong house the night we got here, that's how different it was from the pictures.

[00:44:09] We are extremely unhappy. And not comfortable. And there's not a whole lot we can do about it other than leave because you can't change the house. It is what it is. And when we talked to the owner about, some of our concerns, her answer was, I didn't promise you the Four Seasons.

[00:44:31] For the kind of money that you pay for renting a home up in Fairfield County, in Connecticut, in Greenwich, you know, both of my husband and I looked at each other and said, we're just not comfortable. We don't need to do this. Why are we trying to be heroes? We're gonna turn around within a couple of weeks and go back to Florida.

[00:44:59] it's unfortunate. I admit that I am set in my ways. I like my creature comforts. I don't love change. And I simply, realize this is not where I can spend the rest of the summer.

[00:45:20] What happened was, the same feelings came up with, I should have come up here and looked at the house. I shouldn't have relied on the realtor. Did I not do as a good a job in finding this house? Is my husband not gonna be happy? Is he going to say, why didn't you look at this house closer? It always comes back to those same feelings of you didn't do it right. In all the years that we've been doing this, it's worked out beautifully. And I have done a great deal of work to get these homes. This year I relied on this woman. And she assured me that the house was this and this and this. And I said, great. And it isn't this and this and this.

[00:46:11] The difference is that my husband is 100% on the same page. Agrees with me. Is very sensitive to the fact that I'm not happy, and he's not a whole lot happier. So we're making this decision together, but I used my program to be able to say to him, this is how I feel. And I have to tell you, I'm just not feeling comfortable. And, I think we need to make a decision. This is a blip. It's not life or death. Somebody's not sick. It's not a situation like that. It's simply a situation where we didn't do our due diligence the way we should have, and we need to, turn around and go back home and figure out, plan B.

[00:47:04] But I had to use my program very, very hard to assure myself that it wasn't my fault that I didn't do anything wrong. It simply is what it is. And that we have choices. We're not locked in. We may lose some money, but we're not locked in. And thank God that we can do that.

[00:47:29] That was definitely my program, my recovery, my praying, my talking to God and saying, your will not mine. Help me feel better about this. Help me get through not as pleasant a day as I would like. It's been very, very tough. I hate to say I am too old to do this, but I'm too old to do this. I am not 40 years old and saying so big deal. You know, I'll deal with it.

[00:48:02] Spencer: I think one of the things that Al-Anon helps us to recognize is when we actually do need to do something. When something is not in our best interest.

[00:48:13] Nancy L: Right,

[00:48:14] Spencer: And I hear that from you.

[00:48:16] Nancy L: Somebody told me something a couple of weeks ago that has stuck in my mind like you cannot believe. Apparently, they were at a church sermon and the priest said, when is your enough? When is your enough? Whether it's a change in a position at work, a relationship, a move, whatever it is, it doesn't have to be materialistic or financial. When is your enough?

[00:48:49] I said to my husband, I have reached my enough. I didn't wanna necessarily do this in the first place. I had hesitations about doing it. I was perfectly happy to stay where we were and realize that we were no longer interested in making all the arrangements to come up here, shipping cars, bringing everything.

[00:49:12] And, I said to him, I have reached my enough. I should have probably listened to myself more so, but I didn't. But I sure am now.

[00:49:22] Spencer: Yeah. And not too late.

[00:49:25] Nancy L: No, not too late.

[00:49:28] Spencer: You didn't sit there in discomfort and build up a resentment for the whole summer.

[00:49:33] Nancy L: No, no, no. And that's, that's program talking. That's program talking.

Upcoming

[00:49:39] Spencer: Well, I'm looking forward in the podcast. I don't know exactly when this episode's gonna get out. On Saturday we're flying to the West Coast, to visit with a friend, and then going to the AA International Convention in Vancouver, and then we're going on an Alaska cruise.

[00:49:53] I have this thought in my head that I can actually do this while I'm traveling. We'll see how that works out.

[00:50:01] Nancy L: Yeah.

[00:50:02] Spencer: Future Spencer here. I did do some editing while I was traveling, sitting on the balcony of our cruise ship, but I am now home and finishing this episode, so that's how that worked out.

[00:50:15] We're definitely already scheduled to talk about steps 11 and 12. I actually have two people to talk about step 12 because it's got so much in it, we can do that. Those will be coming. We always welcome your thoughts. Please join our conversation here. Leave us a voicemail or send us an email with your feedback or your questions. And Nancy, how can people send us feedback and questions?

[00:50:41] Nancy L: You can send a voice memo or email to feedback at the recovery show, or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 7 3 4 7 0 7 8 7 9 5. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer. We'd love to hear from you. Share your experience, strength, and hope, or your questions about today's topic of practicing Step 10 or any of our upcoming topics, including step 11 and 12.

[00:51:16] If you have a topic you'd like us to talk about, please let us know. If you would like advanced notice for some of our topics so that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback at the recovery show.

[00:51:32] Spencer: I had an email recently from somebody who wanted to join the mailing list, and I did my normal thing with Google Groups to add them to the mailing list. And then they emailed me a little while later and said, did it actually happen? I don't see anything. So I don't know what's going on there. Google's supposed to send you a notice that says you've been added to the group. I tried that with another email address of my own. I didn't get any notice, so I don't know what's going on. And the email list is sporadic, it's not like I send something out every week.

[00:52:09] So if you have asked to be on the email list and you're not sure, ask again because I can look and see if you're on the list. That's pretty easy and, and let you know. Yes, you are. Just haven't sent out anything recently.

[00:52:22] Our website is the Recovery Show and we have information about the show there, which is mostly the notes for each episode, wherein you will find links to the books that we read from, or mentioned, videos for the music. Also there's some links to other recovery, podcasts and websites.

Song 2

[00:52:44] Spencer: Nancy, you picked another song. What is it?

[00:52:47] Nancy L: My favorite group, rascal Flats, Bless the Broken Road. I think about the years I spent just passing through. I'd like to have the time I lost and give it back to you, but you just smile and take my hand. You've been there. You understand? It's all part of a grander plan that is coming true. God bless the broken road that led me straight to you.

[00:53:16] I think this leads into a lot of what we've talked about, finding hope and purpose, especially after some difficult times, some times where we're not quite as sure as others and suggesting that past struggles lead to a better future and a better road ahead.

[00:53:33]

Listener Feedback

[00:53:41] Spencer: Let's hear what you have to say. Allen writes, I just discovered the show after running through all of Tim M from London's podcasts. I really enjoyed the first few recent episodes I sampled, so I started at the beginning and I've worked through the first 25 or so. I find the discussions helpful in many ways.

[00:53:59] I've been in Al-Anon for just over three years and am now just starting the steps. Your wisdom and examples of how you have approached issues and how you use Al-Anon in your lives are instructive and inspiring. I'm amazed that you have produced so many episodes and I wish you the best. Allen S.

[00:54:15] Thank you for writing Allen.

[00:54:17] And yeah, I, I'm kind of amazed how many episodes we've produced as well.

[00:54:23] Robin, writes. Spencer, thank you for all the effort you put into each of your conversations. I am a devoted Al-Anon member of a parent group. Each night, your kind wisdom has helped me navigate the recent loss of my husband, disappointments with my qualifier and navigating a new way forward, letting go and letting God.

[00:54:42] Could you do a session with your wonderful colleagues on that particular slogan? I find page 2 0 3, July 21st, in Courage to Change, particularly meaningful.

[00:54:53] With much gratitude, Robin.

[00:54:55] That's a lovely idea, Robin, and if you are listening and you are interested in doing an episode on this slogan, letting go and letting God, let me know and we'll set up a time to record.

[00:55:09] Maureen wrote, hi Spencer. First thank you for your service. I started the Al-Anon program last October. Our adult son suffers from multiple mental health conditions, bipolar, borderline traits, A DHD, and multiple addictions, weed, cocaine, and prescribed benzodiazepines.

[00:55:29] My son became homeless last September, but for the last two months is serious about his sobriety and went to rehab. Unfortunately, he became manic a few weeks later. They asked us to pick him up until this is under control. We have taken him into our home and are committed to keep him off the streets as long as he remains sober.

[00:55:47] The psychiatrists say he is not sick enough to warrant hospitalization and the residential rehab say he is not mentally stable enough for them. The problem is that his behavior is still causing us chaos. We are using the program tools to cope, but a show specifically addressing severe mental illness while supporting your loved one's recovery, specifically keeping him safe from all the trauma he experienced being homeless, would be appreciated.

[00:56:12] Thanks, Maureen from Montreal.

[00:56:14] I feel like there must be at least one episode, that's not exactly the same situation, but that shares some experience living with, dealing with, however you wanna put it. A loved one with mental illness and addiction. But , I'm not remembering if there was one and which one it would be.

[00:56:32] As with many of the requests I get, this is not something that I have direct experience with. And so I really need the help of somebody who has navigated this sort of situation to co-host with me, if we're going to address this topic. Again, contact me feedback at the recovery show and we can go forward.

[00:56:54] Jackie writes, hi Spencer. I've been listening to you since 2019 when I knew I needed help, but didn't really know where to start. My husband's drinking was out of control and my life was unmanageable. Listening to you brought clarity and hope. Then in 2020 when everything shut down, my husband decided he needed rehab. Yay.

[00:57:13] But that left me home alone, isolated with our four children. I listened more. Then after being gone for two and a half months, he came home and drank three weeks later. I was crushed. I was so lost. I looked into meetings, but everything was online. I ended up contacting a church member that had moved eight hours away that I knew had done Al-Anon. I asked if she would sponsor me and she said yes, but only temporarily. We are now on year five and going strong.

[00:57:39] After I was in the program for three years, I was at an online meeting and came across a woman asking for help. We started chatting and I became her sponsor. I live in California and she is on the east coast. We have been working together for two years, and it works. It's essential we follow the steps, but we are flexible in our time together and how we work our program into our busy lives. I would be open to discussing this more if there are questions you have.

[00:58:03] Thank you Jackie. C

[00:58:05] Thanks for writing with that experience in remote sponsoring, I guess in both directions, so thanks for sharing.

[00:58:13] Marcelle writes, dear Spencer and Company, first of all, thank you for this podcast. I know you know, but you're deeply helping so many. I am so grateful for you. I wrote a few months ago about a request for an episode on dating. When listening to episode 4 21, about step five, there was a voicemail from someone who asked for an episode on dating.

[00:58:34] Because you are in a long-term relationship that survived recovery, you said that you don't have much input. This I understand. But I ended a long-term relationship due to addiction. Have been in Al-Anon for a year and a few months. My sponsor suggested that I not consider dating for at least a year.

[00:58:50] This seems very sane and even though I'm over a year in the program and working it fully, I feel my picker is broken. And so not wanting to try to date, there is no one in my life I want to date yet, but there was someone I had been attracted to for three years since we met and since I was in my marriage, I avoided that person because it was so strange to be attracted to someone not my husband. That had never happened in the 25 years we were together. So we spent some time together over the course of the next week, and while it awakened me to being a woman again, it was super fun. We ended up just ghosting each other, letting it just go.

[00:59:26] We didn't talk about it. It just felt right, and my sponsor was glad I didn't pursue this as I was only about nine months in the program. I was able to recognize that dating too soon could derail my program. Lucky this dalliance did not derail my program. It helped me to realize that he was not my people, that's in quotes, and that I had a pattern of choosing romantic partners or spouses that were not my people.

[00:59:49] So dating is a good topic. I feel like I may not have much to offer as I'm only 15 months in the program. I have not started dating and have no desire to either. But I would love to hear from more veteran Al-Anon-ers. Thanks for all you do, Marcelle.

[01:00:04] I got a couple of emails from Mary. The first one she writes, your podcast has brought me back to Al-Anon. Thank you. A true lifesaver.

[01:00:13] I'm making my way through the episodes, and I'd like to share something in response to episode 41. Vulnerability. Yes. As Brene Brown points out, vulnerability can be an act of courage.

[01:00:24] It can also be an act of self harm when we open ourselves up to someone who has repeatedly harmed us, pointed out our faults, our mistakes, our weaknesses. We will be again and again and again, hurt. So I will offer this, we don't owe anyone, especially someone who has repeatedly harmed us, our vulnerability. Protecting ourselves from these people as an act of self-care. Thank you. And I'll keep coming back Mary, and thank you Mary, for pointing out that what should be but is not always obvious, thing.

[01:00:57] When choosing to be vulnerable, it's really important to also consider safety. thanks. And then she wrote, again, I just listened to episode 42, living Rich, Full Lives in Recovery. And I'd like to offer this a list of simple things that are available to us from Lincoln in the Bardo by george Saunders. So this is a list of simple things. The text will be in the transcript, which will be in the show notes at the recovery show slash 4 36.

… a gaggle of children trudging through a side-blown December flurry;
a friendly match-share beneath some collision tilted streetlight;
a frozen clock, bird-visited within its high tower;
cold water from a tin jug;
toweling off one's clinging shirt post-June rain.
… someone's kind wishes for you;
someone remembering to write;
someone noticing that you are not at all at ease.
… a hedgetop under-hand as you flee late to some chalk-and-woodfire smelling schoolhouse.
Geese above,
clover below,
the sound of one's own breath when winded.
The way a moistness in the eye will blur a field of stars;
the sore place on the shoulder a resting toboggan makes;
writing one's beloved's name upon a frosted window with a gloved finger.
Tying a shoe;
tying a knot on a package;
… a hand on yours;
the end of the day;
the beginning of the day;
the feeling that there will always be a day ahead.
… loon-call in the dark;
calf-cramp in the spring;
neck-rub in the parlor;
milk-sip at end of day.

[01:02:50] Thanks for that, Mary. That's a nice list.

[01:02:53] I did manage to meet a few of you at the AA convention. Kathy left this voicemail about our brief meetup.

[01:03:02] Kathy: Hi Spencer, it's Kathy. I am leaving some feedback for you coming over and acknowledging who you were with me at the convention. It was so nice to see you in person after listening to you for so many years. I just wanted you to know how much I appreciated it and how much it filled my heart, and after all, it was the language of the heart.

[01:03:27] Okay, thank you. Bye bye.

[01:03:29] Spencer: Letizia wrote, hi Spencer. Glad we got a brief conscious contact to meet one another while at the convention. Hope you and your wife had a lovely visit and enjoyed the convention. Loved the city. We got lucky with great weather during that week.

[01:03:44] And Letizia, you're absolutely right, the weather was great. She put conscious contact in quotes because we met at a Al-Anon session about conscious contact. I can't necessarily remember all of you that I met. It was really great to have, in some cases just a brief meet and other cases, a more extended conversation about things we had in common.

[01:04:09] The next opportunity for meeting up with some of you would be at the Kentucky State Al-Anon convention, the weekend of September 27th. I will be speaking that day.

[01:04:21] We got a review on Apple Podcasts titled Like A Meeting At Your Fingertips. I just discovered this podcast. After listening to a few recent episodes, I went back and started at the beginning. Great topics well presented by thoughtful people. A lot of Al-Anon wisdom in action in their shares. Well, thank you for that review. And that is it for this episode.

Thank you, Nancy

[01:04:43] Spencer: Nancy, I want to thank you for joining me today for our conversation about practicing Step 10 and some of the difficulties that have arisen for us at times.

[01:04:55] Nancy L: Thank you. I loved talking with you and being on your podcast. I listen to it every chance I get, I'm totally up to date on all of your episodes. So you are very much a part of my daily life.

[01:05:09] Spencer: Thank you.

Song 3

[01:05:10] Spencer: And I picked the third song, the song is, I Was Wrong by Chris Stapleton. And again, you can listen to all three songs at the recovery show slash 4 3 6. I just picked up the opening lyrics here.

[01:05:24] I've been thinking about my thoughtless words and I know just how much they must have hurt and I take it back, won't you let me take it back.

[01:05:34] Maybe we need a little bit more than taking it back sometimes, but it really expresses that I know I was wrong. What do I need to do to make it right?

[01:05:44]

Outro

[01:05:49] Spencer: Thank you for listening. Please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you are facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding, love and peace grow in you one day at a time.