Intro

[00:00:00] Spencer: What does it mean to make direct amends, and how do we go about it?

[00:00:05] Welcome to episode 434 of the Recovery Show. This episode is brought to you by Raymond, Cindy, and Renee. They use the donation button on our website. Thank you, Raymond, Cindy, and Renee for your generous contributions. This episode is for you.

[00:00:23] We are friends and family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction, understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:41] Marylou G: Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program. During the show, we will share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope you'll find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:01:00] Spencer: My name is Spencer, I am your host today, and joining me today is Marylou. Welcome back to the Recovery Show. I looked to see when you had previously been on as episode 3 25, recovery in a Time of Isolation. So that was about electronic meetings, probably pretty early in the pandemic. And 3 0 8 program tools, which was one of the last episodes that I recorded in my studio with you and Pat and Kelly

[00:01:29] I know that was a long time ago. I just looked up 3 0 8. It published on November 22nd, 2019, so it would've been one of the last in-person episodes I did. Everything since then has been online.

Step 9 – Making amends

[00:01:44] Spencer: Anyway, moving on to our topic today, we're going to be reading from, and then we'll respond to each paragraph, the section about step nine in the book, how Al-Anon works, which is in chapter eight. Pages 59 to 61, at least in my edition.

[00:02:01] Step nine says, made direct amens to such people wherever possible except when to do so would injure them or others. Could you read the first paragraph for us?

[00:02:11] Marylou G: Having listed those we harmed. We are now faced with the task of making amends. We cannot undo what has been done in the past. We can express our regrets and make a commitment to try not to repeat past mistakes. But what's done is done. By taking step nine. We rid ourselves of the guilt that has weighed us down for so long. By facing the harm we have done and finding the most suitable form of amends for the situation, we can clean up whatever mess we have created and leave the past in the past.

[00:02:40] Spencer: Okay. What this says to me, this is talking about why we wanna do step nine. and a little bit about what it means to make amends. We can express our regrets and make a commitment to try not to repeat past mistakes. I think there's more about that further down.

[00:02:57] But why do we do this? We rid ourselves of the guilt that has weighed us down for so long by facing the harm we have done and finding the most suitable form of amends. We clean up whatever mess we have created and leave the past in the past. To me that is talking about how this is not trying to make the other person feel better about what happened. it's not about saying sorry. It's more than that. It's about moving on. This says to me that step nine is for me. Whatever the reaction, or response of the person to whom I'm making amends. What I know when I'm done is I have made a commitment to do the best I can to clean up what happened. Amends means to improve or to fix. If I've done what I can, and that may involve doing something going forward, too. It often involves, for me, changing my behavior. It lets me say, okay, I did that in the past, but now it's done. What about you?

[00:04:06] Marylou G: I think one of my first introductions actually to step nine, I don't even know if I was on step one, someone was giving a lead on step nine and making amends. This woman who hadn't been coming to the meeting very long stood up and she said, I don't think you understand what it's been like living with an alcoholic, with my alcoholic. She said, I feel like I've been carrying a three flat on my back, like all my life. And she said, there's no way I'm making any amends to any damn alcoholic. And everyone laughed like you are. And people said, keep coming back.

[00:04:40] Spencer: I asked Mary Lou about that expression “three flat”. She says A three flat is a common type of multifamily, one family per floor, bungalow building in Chicago. Two and three flats apparently make up approximately one quarter of Chicago's housing according to the Chicago Architecture Center. I did not know that. Maybe you did not know that, and now you do.

[00:05:05] Marylou G: But what I saw in that moment was kind of a through line, which was, everyone that I had a resentment against, I was gonna have to make an amends to. The shock of that, I think of that as a spiritual awakening moment and the shock of that, it literally took my breath away thinking oh. and then the second part of that for me was, again, because I was at the very beginning of my program, all I thought was like, I don't have any business making any new resentments.

[00:05:36] I had so many other resentments against people. When I first came into Al-Anon, there was a guy who, in our area, he used to do this, 12 steps in one weekend. On Friday night we would do one, two, and three, and then on Saturday morning we would do four, five, and six. And then after lunch we would do 7, 8, 9. And then the next morning we would do 10, 11, 12. The strategy that we used was the list of resentments and for step four. And I couldn't believe the number of resentments that I had. Like, you know, people, places, things, institutions, all kinds of things.

[00:06:13] My father and his brother, my father is one of, four brothers. And there was always some rivalry going on between them. The way that played itself out was that different ones were not speaking to one another at different times over real or imagined wrongs. As the cousins, we knew oh, so and so and so are fighting. Our parents are fighting. But we didn't necessarily know what about. But we were supposed to honor this resentment in some way. Except we were kids. And we just wanted to play. We couldn't really figure out how to make the whole resentment thing work the way that our, parents were like in in the same house, at some event together, but not speaking to each other and like huffing away to a different room or whatever outside or something. It was crazy.

[00:06:59] So for me to recognize that I had a lot of resentments, I had to recognize, wow,this is one of the many ways I think this step for me, really brings up all the ways in which my father's alcoholism really affected us when we were growing up. I couldn't see the affect it had on me. It's so easy to see the effect of alcoholism on the alcoholic, right? 'cause you're just like, oh my God, I don't wanna see what's going on, But. For me, I couldn't see that, that it was that drip of what effect it was having on me. And so it was really a shock. I just remember sitting there with this long list of resentments and feeling like, I can't get through this list this weekend. There's no way. it's too long, too big, too much.

[00:07:39] and then, gradually again, another spiritual awakening, right? Is that idea like, oh, I think I'm so different from my father. I don't think I am. 'cause here I am with this long list of resentments. In our family, it was almost as if we had, they were trophies and you had to go into a room and shine 'em up and remind yourself, why were you mad with that person? Oh, remember the time when they did this? All this crazy stuff. it never made any sense to me. I think that these were lifelong resentments of who was favored in my father's family of origin. I don't even know,to make any logical sense out of it, but it was very active. Periodically, even as adults, like punches would be thrown, especially if they had something to drink. It was not a pretty picture, how adults are supposed to behave. And yet,here we were with this situation. I was with my list of resentments. I hadn't thrown any punches about them, but I definitely had a real feeling of resentment going into step nine. So for me, the very beginning of that process was really having to look at, like, I thought I remembered what happened. did I actually remember what happened for what the resentment actually was. And so then I had to go back.

[00:08:47] For me, the process of doing step nine was like.what do I remember that actually happened? And then in, in a way, bringing an adult consciousness to it, right? What did I think happened at the time? And then now when I look at that situation, what else am I bringing to that situation that I might not have had? The sort of that, that 360 view, as a child. When you play it out, then you can ask yourself the question why was I so upset about that at the time?

[00:09:16] I was thinking about this this morning too, Spencer. When I first came into Al-Anon, my son was 16 years old, and.he was, just starting to learn how to drive and where we live, you get onto the interstate here, from the left hand lane. So you have to get onto the highway at 80 miles an hour. And so you're driving 80 miles an hour in the city, which is completely insane.like, why would I do that? I don't even believe in that. and there's nothing quite like having someone in the backseat saying, how fast are you driving anyway, mom? And why are you driving 80 miles an hour?

[00:09:51] You realize wow, I'm definitely setting an example. It's kinda like when your 2-year-old is following behind you and mimicking you. There was something about the idea of myself as a role model. Thinking is this what I wanna pass along to my son? These crazy resentments and this crazy strategy of going in and reminding myself, like what the fight was about, all over again. So this was a very challenging, lengthy process for me to think what exactly happened.

[00:10:21] When I first started, I remember saying to my sponsor, I was like, what about the justifiable resentments? And then she said, it's kind of a philosophical question as to whether or not there is such a thing as justifiable resentment. I mean, I definitely had wrongs have been done unto me, for sure.

[00:10:40] Spencer: One of the first things I remember, 'cause I definitely felt like I had a victim mentality when I came into Al-Anon. Like all these bad things have been done unto me, right? I remember at a meeting one day and this guy was talking about the notion of piling on, that when the alcoholic is drunk and experiencing the side effects of their drinking, to say nasty things, to be sarcastic, put them down, here you go again. Again, another spiritual awakening, I had this thought, it was I had done that. I wasn't proud of it and no alcoholic had made me do it. I had done that on my own accord and I wasn't drunk myself, so I didn't even have whatever excuses I might have had.Yeah. Drunk on resentment, drunk on

[00:11:28] Marylou G: Oh, absolutely.

[00:11:29] Spencer: There are other forms of drunk.

[00:11:32] Marylou G: yeah,

[00:11:33] Spencer: I have a question. You talked about this workshop. Doing seven, eight, and nine on Saturday, and I'm wondering like was he expecting people to, I don't know, call people and make amends or is it more, deciding what you need to make amends for, what kind of amends you

[00:11:52] wanna make?

[00:11:53] Marylou G: you're asking that question, makes a lot of sense.

[00:11:55] I don't know, I can only describe myself as being in some sort of fugue state, I guess. I was just so struck by all my issues on step four, honestly, those other steps I think are just a complete blur to me. It took so much of my energy to think about all the resentments that I had. So to go back to the idea of the through line, the first thing I realized was I don't have enough bandwidth to add one more resentment to my life. Because I had so many, I, I felt like it would take me the rest of my natural life to work through that list of resentments.

[00:12:28] I just thought oh, you can't take on one more resentment without getting rid of a bunch of. you know. My old boss used to say there wasa Chris Rock routine, where it's kind of like, forget about regulating guns. He said, make the bullets a thousand dollars a piece, he said, and no one would ever spend one. Chris Rock used to say, you know, like, I hate your guts, but you're not worth a bullet. that's my life savings right there, I guess that's how I felt about my resentments was that I was all spent out in the resentment department and I just couldn't possibly add one more.

[00:13:01] That was helpful to me. I think, at, in the beginning of Al-Anon to recognize I, I had already exceeded my own bandwidth and so I didn't have any options of adding any new. It taught me a lot about drama. And I think that whole thing eventually led me to be able to forgive my father. 'cause I had so much anger towards him when I first came into the program. He had been dead for a long time when I started. He's obviously been dead a lot longer now. It made me recognize, like my father was very much into the drama. I would call him a pot stirrer. He kinda liked everybody sort of off balance.

[00:13:34] I had two brothers that were born when I was 16, and my father was always encouraging them to have competition between them. I always thought, this is not a good idea. They're gonna be brothers long after you're gone and be better for them to, be able to work together. But that was not his strategy. He was definitely about,keeping everybody off balance.

[00:13:54] I was like, why would he do that? And then I realized oh, he grew up in an alcoholic home too. that was probably just a way for him to feel comfort like that, that seemed normal to him, that chaos. That's what he brought to us too. and then here I am, perpetuating all of this. I had to recognize that's my part in all of this. And,I don't want this to be my legacy, I guess.

[00:14:19] Spencer: Sure, let's move on here. Paragraph two says,

[00:14:23] There are many ways to make direct amends from simple, straightforward apologies to changed attitudes and altered behavior. Sometimes amends must be made in person. At other times, a letter, phone call or a monetary form of restitution is more suitable. It often helps to review the situation with an Al-Anon friend or a sponsor in order to determine what would be most helpful to us and most appropriate to the circumstances. Prayer and self-honesty are also illuminating.

[00:14:54] I guess I'm not so much a letter writer. and I feel like, wow, making a phone call to make, I guess it depends what you're making amends for. The big amends that I had to make were to family members. You know, you were talking about this woman who was in one of her first meetings, who was talking about, I'm not gonna make any amends to any alcoholics. And that's where I was. I was not ready to make amends to my wife, who was the alcoholic in my life. While she was still drinking alcoholically. It wasn't gonna happen partly because I didn't know whether she would take it in at all. And partly because, yeah, I still had a lot of resentment about her drinking. Until I was able to get to the point where I was not resenting her alcoholism, I'm not sure I could have reasonably made amends because if that resentment is continuing to be active, then I'm probably gonna continue those behaviors. Then you get to the point of, I'm sorry I won't do it again, and then you do it again. And that's also not a good situation. And maybe I'm just rationalizing, I don't know.

[00:16:09] I had to make amends to my children. And again, I'm not gonna do that by calling em on the phone. It just, wow, does not feel reasonable. I guess there are situations where it's the only way.

[00:16:22] There's a lot more in this paragraph here. The first sentence. Sometimes an apology is sufficient.A situation at work that I talked about in the step eight episode, we effectively just apologized to each other. I said to him, my behavior yesterday was entirely inappropriate. And he said, mine wasn't that good either. And that was sufficient, partly because maybe it hadn't had days and weeks to build up into resentment. So it was easy to say, man, I screwed up.

[00:16:51] and have that be it.

[00:16:53] Marylou G: I was thinking about this this morning. My siblings kind of took the geographic cure. I'm one of, six kids. and, only one actually lived in the same city that I lived in. the rest of them were all in different locations. So for those people I chose to send them a letter.

[00:17:13] The two people in my family, my ex-partner and my son, I did both of those amends in person. With my sister, I guess this is one of the things that I was thinking about when you sent out the request. my sister was really the first person that I made an amends to. I really wanted to have a different relationship with my sister than I ever had. I don't think that my sister and I were ever really close, and I definitely played a part in that. I was eight when our mother passed away. And, my sister was six. I can remember when we were kids, kids would come to me and they would be like, oh, your sister's crying.

[00:17:49] and, you know, there wasn't really anything I could do for her. Our reactions were almost like night and day. My sister wanted everybody to be her mother, you know, that book, are you my mother? that was my sister going around everywhere,could you be my mother? Could you take care of me?

[00:18:04] This is part of for me the amends process. I only have one other sibling who went to college. Honestly, I had no humility when I first came into Al-Anon. I really thought that I was like Oprah in my own family. I had done well, I had a career, I had a family, a house, like all this kind of stuff. And, most of the other people in my family were really, financially struggling and kinda all the bad, consequences of alcoholism. I've now come to see that what I got was a couple more years of my mom compared to my sister. I think thats probably the biggest difference between the two of us. but my sister, it was like trying to get any kind of attention that she could. I really blame my father for a lot of this. My sister was just like a dead ringer from my mother. I think that played a big role in my father's relationship with my sister because she looked like my mother, but she didn't act like my mother and my father had these very strong ideas about, females , all this kind of crazy religious stuff. And my sister wasn't, following any of those ideas. He judged her very harshly and was, I think, very cruel to her. I thought , as I was growing up, that I was not as cruel as my father. And so it wasn't as bad somehow but I think inside of myself, I was judging her.

[00:19:19] My sister's an alcoholic, was an alcoholic. She's passed away since. my father used to say, she's the only person I know go to AA and come home with some guy who's worse off than she is. And my sister would be like, oh yeah. I know that this guy's not that good, but I am better than they're, so how does this even make any sense? You know? It's very painful to be around, watching someone act out, that kind of, ugh, it was just painful. Eventually, I got to the point where I couldn't really be around her 'cause it was just too painful to watch.

[00:19:47] so my son didn't mean her until the week that she passed away. Because I felt like in my mind somehow I'd keep all of this bad stuff away from him. Not really realizing that the person who brought alcoholism in into my home was me. From being untreated Al-Anon, right?

[00:20:04] My first draft of my amends to my sister was, four pages, double-sided, single spaced, this kind of rant about all the bad things that my sister had done. and my sister did do a lot of not very nice things, right? I mean, my sister took money from me. In some ways, I look back on it now as the person who taught me how to say no and mean it was my sister. Because of her addiction and all of that constantly quote unquote falling for it and hoping that it's gonna get better and, all of that kind of thing.

[00:20:35] I didn't understand that whole detachment with love. I just did the amputation part. I just had to put her out of my life 'cause I couldn't be around her. I felt like it was like an ongoing kind of cancer in my family. That's how I felt. And there was nothing I could do about it. There was nothing I could do to make it right.

[00:20:53] You know, it was really only when I was reading that, the Body Keeps the Score book. It's about trauma and, recognizing like when people kinda like my dad, right? When people have had trauma, they recreate that same environment because that's what feels familiar to them. I definitely had so much more compassion for my sister, I think after I read that book. Not compassion that I had for her when she was still alive, unfortunately.

[00:21:21] When I gave my sponsor that, that typed up document, she said, you know, this is fine. Thank you very much, but now we have to talk about your part. Which was really shocking to me. Like my part, like what did I do, kind of thing. And I really had to sit with that for a long time, before I was able to really recognize the role that I played. Which, like I said, it wasn't as bad as my father, but who knows? It's so crazy, but that was somehow my justification

[00:21:50] Spencer: I'm guessing the next letter was a lot

[00:21:51] Marylou G: much shorter. It was two pages. Yeah. Much shorter.

[00:21:55] Spencer: You wanna read the next paragraph?

[00:21:57] Marylou G: Occasionally bringing up the past would only reopen old wounds and make matters worse. Direct amends are not appropriate if they will cause further harm. In such a case, amends might be made by avoiding the harmful behavior so that we will not hurt anyone else in the same way. For example, if we have harmed an elderly relative who has asked us to refrain from any further communication and therefore cannot make direct demands, we might vow never to repeat the same mistake with anyone else we encounter. Or perhaps we can choose to write a heartfelt letter of amends to that person. And to read it to our sponsor instead of mailing it. Or we might devote some time to helping out in a retirement center is a way of demonstrating to ourselves that we really wanna do things differently.

[00:22:41] I actually was reading, this is from the 12 and 12. Many of us realized that we owed an important amends to that very alcoholic we once blamed for all of our problems. Before we began to live by the Al-Anon program, it was difficult for us to admit that we were at fault. Later, we realized that we needed to face what we had done. If direct amends could result in more hurt for others, we found other ways to make amends. We showed interest in another's wellbeing, activities and achievements. Thoughtful courtesies suggested a basic change in our own attitudes and the way we behave toward others. More gentleness, tolerance and acceptance, along with our own sense of dignity, did much to restore harmony. In other cases, we might have felt that amends were no longer possible. What if the person we had harmed was no longer alive or available to receive the amends we were longing to make? There was a comforting alternative. By being kind, thoughtful, and generous to those people currently in our own lives, we could avoid repeating past mistakes. This is a form of amends that we could make to others who were gone. By taking these actions, we also found a concrete way to make amends for the harm that we might have done to ourselves. We learned to forgive ourselves as we realized that growth is a gradual process.

[00:23:54] Spencer: In my case, some of the people that I needed to make amends to were my wife and my kids. The harms that I had done in the past, particularly in the case of the children, the rage that they had to live with, live through. Clearly I needed to stop doing that behavior. and in fact, that was one of the first miracles that happened in Al-Anon was my rage was relieved, which is amazing to me, even thinking back, so I could stop doing the behavior, direct amends meant acknowledging to them that I had acted in this way. And that I was making a commitment to myself to act differently in the future. But I couldn't change what had happened. I couldn't go back and soothe the hurt. And I had to be okay with that. I had to be okay with, yeah, I hurt them and I can't fix it. All I can do is admit that it happened and do my best, that it doesn't happen again. And, that's hard.

[00:25:05] Marylou G: I think that's very hard.when I first came into Al-Anon and the reason I came was not because of the growing up, the alcoholic home. That should have been the reason to come, but it wasn't. The reason I came was because my son started having issues. He was one of the people that I had to make amends to because I was very angry and upset with him.

[00:25:23] For the first probably five years that I was in Al-Anon, I feel like I barely spoke to him. He was 16 at the time. and I saw him, on his birthday, saw him on holidays, but very, very little. And I really tried to limit the amount of time that I was with him because I just couldn't, I was just so filled with anger. I didn't wanna say anything. I knew at that point, I couldn't be, saying more mean things. So I had to really limit the amount of time, like you were saying, that it's very hard when you have an active resentment against somebody to make an amends.

[00:25:53] I didn't wanna, build up any more, problems. I thought the best thing to do is to just absent myself, which, you know, there's consequences to that too. when I, made my amends to him, I had to say that I was sorry that my attempt to try to help fix myself to address the issues that I had grown up with had been painful to him.

[00:26:13] One of my friends always says even God can't change the past. And that's hard. That's really hard 'cause you have to sit there with that wasn't some other person who did that. And like I said, most of us were not even drunk when we did it. So it's, where's our excuse?

[00:26:30] Spencer: no. Unfortunately you

[00:26:31] don't have that excuse.

[00:26:32] no easy exit. There were some behaviors that I did with my kids when they were much younger andI had to ask my sponsor. I did this. I don't know if they remember it or not. And if they don't remember, and I don't know how this works out because suppressed memories and that sort of thing are real . But if they don't remember these behaviors and I bring them up, is that gonna hurt them more than letting it be? What my sponsor suggested was that when I'm making amends for the behavior that they clearly knew about, then at the end to say, what else do you remember that you would like me to address? Or, some words like that. That way if they did remember these things that happened when they were three or four, then I would have an opportunity to make direct amends for that.and if they didn't, then for the moment at least let it go. I don't know. it's a tricky one. It really is. And I'm not sure whether that really the right thing to do. ,

[00:27:41] Marylou G: I grew up around a lot of physical violence, so my goal was to never hit my son. It's really interesting how that's changed over time, Because he was with somebody who believed in hitting kids. They just recently broke up and not that long ago, he was reporting to me that the ex-girlfriend's brother and father had gotten into a fist fight. And he said to me like, why would they do that? So. I think I've been successful in breaking that pattern for sure, going forward.

[00:28:09] That was definitely one of the resentments that I had. I really did not like getting hit when I was a kid.

[00:28:15] Spencer: All right, next paragraph. But this must not become a convenient excuse to avoid the important spiritual work that this step suggests. Step nine speaks of making direct amends, whenever possible. The emphasis of this step is on facing those we have harmed in setting the record straight. We wouldn't want embarrassment or resentment to tempt us to avoid an apology that we need to make or the repayment of a debt we owe. Nobody is standing watch over us to make sure we take this step with sincerity. We are the only ones who will ever truly know. If we wish to be free from the terrible suffocating weight of guilt, we must take whatever action is necessary to make amends for the harm we have caused. Only then will we find real relief.

[00:29:00] Embarrassment or resentment. those are key for me in this situation. No, I don't really want to stand up and say, here are these things that I did that I think caused you harm. It's not the way that I want to think about myself. I dunno about resentment, but embarrassment for sure is, was a factor for me. Well, okay. Resentment. Resentment at the, the still drinking alcoholic in my life.I did make direct amens to her, after she had gotten sober. It was a while after she had gotten sober because I had to be able to see some of the ways in which I had harmed our relationship in particular were still going on. When that came up for me, when I recognized that, and I don't know if that was like doing a formal step four, or if it one of those things where somebody says something in a meeting or reads something in a meeting and all of a sudden it is oh, wait a minute. I did that. I'm doing that. Oh. Then I could sit down with her and say, Hey. In this case it was, I had built this wall to protect myself between us, this emotional wall, and it was still there. and I needed to work to take it down.

[00:30:14] Marylou G: Spencer, when you were talking, I was thinking, I was in a meeting one time and I had this idea, again, I think another spiritual awakening, like the two by four upside the head. So I was thinking, about my son and all the things that I had, quote unquote done to protect him from the family disease of alcoholism, primarily by limiting access to my siblings, because my father was dead by then.

[00:30:38] At that time, I really felt like I needed to take a giant step away from my son because I couldn't believe that this was something that he would, in my mind chosen to do, right? To get involved with substances. I just thought oh my God, kill me now.

[00:30:50] This is what he's gonna show initiative on, you know? I had this thought and it was, I hope that, if my son and I are ever talking in the future at some point, some far off point, I hope that he can give me some compassion for the things that I've tried to do to kinda limit my family's access, so that he wouldn't grow up around all that same kind of craziness that I grew up around. And then I had this thought, this is the Al-Anon thought, which was, I can't want compassion from my son if I'm not willing to give it to my dad. That thought was so big, I couldn't even, I couldn't even manage it at the time, it, it was just like so overwhelming to me.

[00:31:29] The other reading from Courage to Change on October 25th. One of my defects of character was to make choices passively letting things happen rather than taking action. For example, I stood by and watched my children suffer abuse because I was unable to make a decision and follow through with it. I have been severely affected by alcoholism, and I was not capable of doing otherwise. At the time. It was the best I could do under the circumstances, but the harm was done and I owed amends.

[00:31:56] One way to make amends is to stop practicing the defect. In every area of my life I can ask myself today, am I taking responsibility for my choices? Do I make a positive contribution to my meetings or do I assume that somebody else will take care of everything? Am I making choices I can be proud of at home, at work, in my community, and letting choices be made for me?

[00:32:19] I think that when I made my amends to my son, I could honestly say that was my best at that time and my best is better now. It's very clear to me that I don't let myself have that out now.

[00:32:33] Spencer: You know, what's not in here explicitly, is this question of making amends to ourselves. I've talked before about the deep financial hole we dug ourselves, during our alcoholic living, shall we say. It wasn't just the alcoholism, it was all of the stuff that goes around it and ignoring the problems that weren't problems right now. , We ended up with a very large amount of basically credit card debt. We were doing the thing of moving balances between cards when you'd get a, a six month special rate offer and all those games that you play when you don't really know how to deal with it.and eventually it was like, there's too much debt here. We don't know how to get out from under it. And I took money out of my retirement fund to pay it off. I viewed that as, financial restitution, amends for harms we had done to ourselves.

[00:33:32] Occasionally, I think, was that really the wisest thing to do? But I think it was because we were living in anxiety and fear and despair because ofthis debt. And we really needed to do something about it. That was the most concrete amends to myself. the other ways in which I feel like I've made amends to myself for the ways in which I've hurt myself is to continue practicing this program. Because that has done the most for my serenity, my health, both mental and physical, of anything else I've done in my life.

[00:34:14] We got one more paragraph.

[00:34:15] Marylou G: With this step, we have an opportunity to choose the kind of person we would like to become, and the kinds of relationships in which we would like to be involved. By making amends, we admit that we are human like everyone else, and cease to be ourselves apart from others. We do not beat ourselves up for having made mistakes. We merely admit that we made them and do what we can to correct them. Our actions show that we have enough respect for ourselves and others to own up to the harm we have done. We commit ourselves to justice. We demonstrate that we wish to be fair, honest, and mature. Step nine is not about relieving our guilt at the expense of others, nor is it about setting ourselves up for abuse. The purpose of step nine is to do what we can to heal ourselves and our relationships, and to set ourselves free.

[00:35:01] Spencer: Is there anything more to say?

[00:35:03] I know that after having made amends to my kids for my rage behavior, I don't carry guilt for that. I still remember it. I still talk about it in Al-Anon context at least. Partly because it's an example of the ways in which I have found healing in this program. And when I talk about it, I still get emotional about it. I still feel grief that I was that person at that time, but I don't carry ongoing guilt and shame about it. And I think that's what they're talking about here. It's about relieving the spiritual and emotional burden of the things that we did in the past. The things that I did in the past. There are some people in my life that I did harms to, that I don't know where they are. I don't know how to get in touch with them. But what I can do is not do those behaviors to anybody else. And if that person shows up, I'm ready to make amends.

[00:36:11] Marylou G: I'm just thinking as you're talking, I don't know if that I've made that kind of a direct amends to myself. I didn't have any people that I couldn't find, thank God. I don't know. There might be other people that I harmed, but I don't even know that I did.

[00:36:24] But, I thought a lot about arrogance and the lack of humility that I grew up with. There's a story that I have read about a guy who, his partner had made lunch and it was really nice lunch, and he was very grateful. Then he went into the kitchen and everything was like a hot mess. and then he was like, why didn't you clean up the kitchen? And then he was like, why don't I clean up the kitchen? You know, there's this idea of the other person being the one. And the reality is no one is the one. That all of us at our very best are probably 66 and a half percent.

[00:36:57] And all the people around us are rounding up for us. We're rounding up for them and they're rounding up for us. that's why we're able to stay together with people in our family, 'cause we round up for them. It made me realize, like everyone in my family, everyone I've ever met, has rounded up for me and didn't make me feel bad about it. They were just doing it. They were saying, why don't I just clean up the kitchen? like some version of that. It really struck me, that I needed to practice a lot more humility, you know, to see other people rounding up for me and to not have that same perfectionistic kind of thing, that I applied both to myself and to others.

[00:37:32] I do feel like, going to meetings definitely helps me to see other people and to feel that compassion for them dealing with a terrible disease. And I couldn't see myself that way when I came in. So

[00:37:45] that's one of the things that's very different now.

[00:37:48] Spencer: Heather reached out to see if she would be my guest for step nine. I said, I already had somebody signed up, which is you, Marylou, and she said, well, can I send you some shares?

[00:37:57] And I said, absolutely, please do. Because I often feel the more voices we have, the more in depth we can be. And what I love about Heather's shares is that they're specific examples of the amends process for a couple of different people in her life. Here's her first share.

[00:38:17] Heather C: Hey Spencer, this is Heather C with an amends story that is truly humbling for me. Wanted to share that as I was going through my step nine, I identified an ex-boyfriend that I wanted to make amends with. We are still relatively speaking in contact through Facebook, et cetera. Uh, do not have a relationship to speak of.

[00:38:43] He has moved on and I have moved on. We both have married and had families separately, but he is one that is on my amends list. And so I worked with my sponsor to get clarity and, be, honest about the harm that I had done. And I wrote it all out and I was ready to make amends and I didn't know how that amends would happen because we are not geographically close.

[00:39:07] And so I just put it away. And I had an opportunity via a work trip to be geographically located near him. And so I immediately, Facebook messaged him and said, Hey, I am gonna be in your area, would love to get together for dinner. could we meet up? And we decided how that was gonna happen.

[00:39:29] The other side of that was then part of my, prior character defects was lie by omission. So the other side of that was being honest with my husband, about the fact that I was gonna be arranging this meeting. knowing that my spouse has feelings. has own hot buttons about ex relationships, et cetera. It was up to me to be honest about that relationship. that literally that caused like World War III in my relationship with my spouse. So I had an opportunity to understand my part, understand the harm that I was causing to my husband.

[00:40:11] Lo and behold, as I'm going through the conversations with my husband and dealing with this on a new level through my 12 step kind of recovery lens, being honest, being considerate, owning my part, et cetera. My work trip got canceled. So like a few days beforewe had to make decisions about travel,the whole. meeting that I was supposed to be traveling for was canceled. Part of me looked back and was like, oh my gosh, I just blew up my marriage for this amends, which isn't real. That's kind of dramatic. But,the cool thing was that I realized that the important relationship that I have in my marriage is important to me and I need to take care and honor that relationship and be forthcoming and be honest in my intentions as well as in my actions and my words.

[00:41:05] So all that to say, very humbling, major spiritual awakenings. And I can look back on that and just chuckle at watching the progress in all of my thoughts and behaviors. Thanks for letting me share.

[00:41:19] Spencer: One of the things I got from that, Heather, is this question about, unless to do so would injure them or others. What I hear from you is that there was some unexpected, unintentional injury to your relationship with your spouse. That's really unfortunate, but I guess that's sometimes what happens in life. And also that you didn't actually get to make the amends because your trip was canceled. Thank you for being transparent and open, with that share. She sent another one about making amends with a sister.

[00:41:50] Heather C: Hey Spencer, this is Heather C in California. I have learned so much and truly been humbled, have had some major spiritual awakenings through the process of many of my amends. One of them that I wanted to share with you was the amends that I created for my sister. I went, round and round with my sponsor trying to get real clarity on the harm that I had done and, what I wanted to do in my relationship going forward with my sister, because both of us were affected by the family disease of alcoholism. When I got my amends right, I wanted to make that amends immediately. And so I reached out, to my sister several times. Hey, can we have coffee? Hey, can I come over? There's something I wanna talk to you about. Hey, can we get together? And the funny thing about.living my life aligned with higher power is I get to understand the inner workings of my higher power doing for me sometimes what I need and not necessarily what I want. Each of the times that I tried to reach out to connect with my sister in order for me do my amends, that was my ulterior motive. She. wasn't available for me. I can look back on that and find the irony. maybe I can, look at it from a perspective of, yeah, that makes sense.

[00:43:13] What I had a talk about with my sponsor was, oh my gosh, she's not making herself available for me. And I hear how funny that sounds. My sponsor would remind me that, I don't need to force any solutions. And so I prayed to my higher power about, giving me the opportunity to make my amends and I set about doing living amends. So every time I was with my sister, I behaved in a loving, open way and not a forceful kind of way. and there have been times since that fast forward over, I don't know, a few years where I never really made a formal amends to my sister, but I had opportunities come up.

[00:43:58] My higher power put me in place to be able to act with kindness, to be able to see my sister in her life and be there to support her and really speak loving words that I've learned in program in a way that I could have never done before.Before coming into the rooms of Al-Anon and learning this loving language of universal acceptance.

[00:44:24] My sister and I have a different relationship today. And it is not one based on me always forcing solutions or being domineering, because I think I know what's right. and so that, that was a funny experience that I had in making amends with my sister.

[00:44:39] Spencer: I like that the way it worked out is that you're making living amends, because for whatever reason, your sister wasn't ready to receive. You still went ahead and changed the way in which you relate with her. And I think that is the amending part of it. I looked up, amend, by the way, I looked up the definition of amend. And the one that I think is relevant here is make better or improve. Thanks, Heather.

[00:45:06] Marylou G: I think it's very interesting that her sister was, that it was really hard for them to get in touch. Some of the readings like in Courage to Change or whatever about are, not forcing a solution which she talks about and then also just waiting for the right time.

[00:45:19] And sometimes you have that moment. I didn't actually plan on making my amends to my son when I did. Then after I made the amends to him and he started talking about a bunch of other things and then I realized oh, I could like steam clean my side of the street and it wouldn't have anything to do with his side of the street. We can't necessarily rope other people into some Hollywood version of what this is supposed to look like, right.

[00:45:45] Spencer: I also have read several times the reading in Paths to Recovery about step nine, and somewhere in there it talks about not expecting any particular kind of response. We're not going for an outcome of, hey, the person forgives me or whatever. We're going for the outcome of having, as you said, clean your side of the street.

[00:46:04]

[00:46:05] Marylou G: I don't think I've had anybody really say much of anything after my amends, I don't think anybody ever said, oh, thank you for saying that. It just was more for me. One of the things I remember thinking about this step was that, in my family, no one ever said that they were wrong, or that they had done anything wrong. First of all, it was usually, oh, that never happened, or that's not what happened. So that was really challenging for me. So one thing that I make a point of saying was I was wrong. I did this thing and I was wrong when I did this. And here's why I was wrong and I'm not proud of that, I wish I had done something different.

[00:46:42] My son has actually said to me like, I see you doing things differently. I think that's why we, have a relationship today is that I don't allow myself that out, that easy out. The reality is that I'm making the amends for me, and I'm the one who has to like clean my own side of the street. I think that visual has been very. When I first came into Al-Anon, I think I was so far on the other side of the street, or I was on the yellow line looking over at the other person's side of the street. And when I finally got onto my side of the street, it looked like a hoarder lived there. I remember thinking like, this is gonna take forever to clean this side of the street up. But that was the other thing, that when I wasn't so involved in what the alcoholic was doing, I had a lot more time on my hands. Which was good 'cause I had a lot of crap to clean up. So that kinda worked out well.

[00:47:30] Spencer: After a short break, we will continue with our lives in recovery, where we talk about how recovery works in our daily lives .

Song 1

[00:47:37] Spencer: I asked you to pick music. What's the first song you picked?

[00:47:40] Marylou G: So this is hard because all these songs are love songs. There's no, I'm sorry to my sister song . I was thinking about if I could turn back time, that whole idea, I would find a way to take back the words, the things that I had done that hurt my sister. I don't know why I did the things I did. I don't know why the things I said. I realize when I was writing this to you, I still have this yearning. I wish things could have been different between my sister and I, but I also understand why they weren't and a big part of why they weren't was because of me and my behavior. I was not the sister that she would've wanna been close to when we were growing up. That was my best at the time. I think I'm capable of more now, but in the end I think her addiction was too much .

[00:48:20] So .I'm still sad about that.

[00:48:23] Spencer: Future Spencer here. We had some technical difficulties recording and the name of the song did not get recorded, so I'll let you know it's If I could Turn Back Time by Cher.

Our Lives in Recovery

[00:48:45] Spencer: In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery. How have we experienced recovery recently? I'll go ahead.

[00:48:54] A thing that came up for me recently in a meeting, we've been reading the stories in the back of How Al-Anon Works. We'll read a story and then people will share whatever came up for them.

[00:49:05] Usually I don't have a lot of trouble connecting with the person in the story, connecting with their experiences. The 12th story in the book is titled, A War Veteran Makes Life and Death Decisions. Well, I've never been in war. And a lot of his story was about the way in which his, he doesn't say it, but effectively, PTSD, was really severely affecting his life. He was ready to kill himself at one point and, and somehow coming to Al-Anon, like at least kept him from the brink. I was like, I don't have those experiences. I don't have those flashbacks. I've never wanted to kill myself. For a while, I was like, I don't know that I relate to this story at all. But then I looked a little further behind, the story and the feelings that he was having, the feelings of isolation and despair. And I was like, I had those feelings and the feeling of coming into a meeting and realizing somehow that the people in the meeting understood. That I wasn't alone in having those feelings. Those I can connect with. I've heard it works better if you're able to find points of identification rather than points of comparison.

[00:50:29] One of the meetings that was my home group for a long time, had what we called a newcomers meeting, which was a half hour after the regular meeting where people who were new to Al-Anon could sit down with somebody who had some experience and they could ask their questions or whatever, or maybe they didn't feel like speaking up in this meeting that had 50 or 60 people in it. And sometimes people would say, I don't know why I'm here. I don't identify any alcoholics in my life, but somebody suggested that I come and I'm here and what I hear makes sense to me, or what I hear feels familiar. And I would always say, if you're finding something here that speaks to you, then you belong here and keep coming. Even though you don't have an alcoholic spouse or boyfriend or girlfriend or kid or parent or brother or sister that you can identify. If you feel comfortable here, if you feel welcome here, keep coming. I need to not forget that. So this was a good reminder for me. Do I identify with this guy at all? Yeah, I do actually. Even though his experience and my experience are worlds apart, there are still points of identification. And that's important.

[00:51:46] that's what I've got.

[00:51:47] Marylou G: When I came into Al-Anon, like I said, I came in because of my son, not because of my father. My father had grew up in an alcoholic home. When my brothers were, in high school, my stepmother passed away and we went to this counselor and they literally, the counselor, who turned out, the luck of the draw, whatever, was a substance abuse counselor.

[00:52:06] And we filled up three blackboards with alcoholic relatives. My mother's side of the family, my father's side of the family, and then my stepmother. And my stepmother only had her mother's side of the family. She never really knew her father. And I remember at the time it was just it's like you know all these people are alcoholics, but then somehow seeing it in black and white, it was a lot. I just remember feeling overwhelmed by it. So for me, I feel like I come from like the Romanovs of alcoholism, right? I'm unusual in my family in that I don't have the allergy? So I didn't wanna come to Al-Anon.

[00:52:38] The only reason I know the date of my first meeting was because I was having all these problems with my son. When he started using, I was having panic attacks and I couldn't sleep at night, and I was just really not doing well. because for me, like this wasn't like the typical teenage, go down this road and then eventually he'll just come out of it, you know, like a tourist. In my family, people became permanent residents in this neighborhood and they never got out. I had tried everything, literally everything that I could think of.

[00:53:09] The first, Al-Anon meeting that I went to, of course, I didn't think I would have anything in common with any of the people there. I remember thinking, I had said to my nephew, I hate alcoholics. I hate everything about them. All they do is cause pain for other people. And my nephew wrote back. He said, now you just have to do that trust exercise where you lean back in your chair and let them catch you. And then I wrote back that is never happening. I dunno if you've ever had this experience, Spencer, 'cause I know you have dogs, but if you ever tried to take a 10 pound cat to the vet, it's kind of like wrestling a grizzly bear to the ground. You have to grab 'em up and then like stuff 'em into this box and their legs are out and they're, wanting to not get in. And then when you get 'em to the vet, you open up the little door on the little box and you try to shake 'em out and they got their legs in the different corners and they're not coming out. And that's how I feel like I came into Al-Anon. When I hear these stories of people who are like, oh yeah, my boyfriend went to rehab, and the counselor said, maybe I should try Al-Anon. And so here I am, I'm always like, oh my God. Like in a million years, that was not my story.

[00:54:08] And I was so angry for the first year. I couldn't believe it. Like, why do I have to go to these stupid meetings? I couldn't believe it. I was so frustrated, why am I here and why aren't they here? But I did feel a little bit better when I was in meetings. In the beginning it took me a long time to try to understand like, why did I feel better when I was in an Al-Anon meeting, than when I wasn't, and I guess I just wasn't perseverating, I guess the whole time that I was in the meeting, I was thinking about things like, I did not think of my childhood as a, like a great neighborhood. There was no nostalgia there. I didn't wanna go back and visit all the old people. I just thought about things that had happened and just thinking about them made me feel really guilty. And then I had a really weird experience. I told you about my twin brothers that were born when I was 16 and I was talking to one of my brothers trying to figure out how old was I when my dad actually stopped. My dad stopped drinking when he developed a seizure disorder and they told him that if he took phenobarbital, and drank that he would die. That's how Judy Garland died. And somehow that stuck in his head.

[00:55:08] So I was trying to have this conversation with my one brother. Because when I went to college, I left home like I was shot out of a cannon. I never looked back. I just couldn't. So then I wasn't really around my younger brothers very much. And so I was asking my brother how old, he was, when my father stopped drinking, which he was 10. I thought, wow, oh my God. Like anybody who came into Al-Anon and said, my father drank every day until I was 10. They would definitely have a seat in Al-Anon. And then I was talking to my other brother for some reason about this, and he was like, why are you talking to him? And I was like, what do you mean?

[00:55:38] I was like, I'm not even talking to strangers. I'm talking to my own brother, like just trying to understand my own timeline, and he was furious. How dare you talk to him. And I was like, I could talk to him, my own brother about whatever I want. Who are you? It was a very strange, but it made me realize oh, the family rules are still intact. Don't talk, don't feel, don't. It was very interesting to me, to see like, wow. My father by that time had been dead for, 20 years. What difference did it make? Those rules, were the same for me as they were for my siblings, right? We don't talk about this, kinda stuff. Yeah. Very weird.

[00:56:10] It is very interesting how many people come into meetings and say, I don't really know why I'm here. And then they eventually start talking with people and their family, and it was like aunts and uncles and grandparents, and even parents. It's shocking to me how frequently people, quote unquote, don't know anybody and then turns out they actually do.

[00:56:29] Spencer: You wanna say anything more about how recovery's working in your life today?

[00:56:32] Marylou G: We're reading Paths to Recovery right now and, we're on step four. And, it's just really interesting to me, there's so many different ways to do step four. Some people are doing the Alateen booklet, which is topics and then like drawings and all kinds of other interesting things, for people who don't wanna sit down and type up big long lists or letters or whatever.

[00:56:51] In our new book, one of the quotes in there is there's no one right way to do recovery. And I'm just getting like a different appreciation for that, that there's no one right way to do step four and that however you do it, it's more important that you do it than how you do it because eventually all of us will have the opportunity to get to do it again.

[00:57:14] Spencer: Yes.

[00:57:15] Marylou G: For whatever reason, I myself have actually done a fair number of inventories and I think it's helpful just to understand like what actually happened. For me Al-Anon has just been a big mirror, for me to be able to see myself and, to understand, what was I thinking at the time and what makes sense to me now. There are new people at our meeting who are like, whoa, step four, you know?

[00:57:37] I don't have that feeling now. I sometimes now I'll say to my sponsor, I think I should do an inventory on that . I have found that to be one of the more useful tools in Al-Anon. I've done an inventory on, my job, jobs, relationships, my siblings, my son, like just a number of different things to try to understand, what I actually thought and why I thought that, and what was I thinking at the time.

[00:58:00] And it's just been very helpful to me. So I don't have any fear about it now.

Upcoming

[00:58:05] Spencer: Looking forward in the podcast, we still will be covering steps 10, 11, and 12. We welcome your thoughts. You can join our conversation. Leave us a voicemail or send us an email with your feedback or your questions, on. Steps 10 through 12 or step nine or any other topic really. And Marylou, how can people send us feedback

[00:58:29] Marylou G: You can send a voice memo, or email to feedback@therecovery.show, or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail. At 7 3 4 7 0 7 8 7 9 5. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer. We'd love to hear from you. Share your experience, strength, and hope, or your questions about today's topic of step nine or any of our upcoming topics, including steps 10, 11, and 12. If you have a topic you'd like us to talk about, please let us know.

[00:59:01] If you'd like advanced notice for some of our topics so that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback at the recovery show. Put email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.

[00:59:15] Spencer: And our website is therecovery.show. We have all the information here about the show, which is mostly the notes for each episode. Those notes now include a transcript of the episode, and also depending what podcast app you listen to the podcast on. You may see, subtitles as you're playing it as well. In the show notes, we have links to the books that we read from. There will be videos for the music that Marylou chose, and there you will find there are also some links to other recovery podcasts and websites. What's your next song?

Song 2

[00:59:54] Marylou G: My second song is Hello by Adele. Some of this lyrics. Hello, it's me. I was wondering, after all these years, if you'd like to meet and go over everything. They say the time's supposed to heal you, but I ain't done much healing. So hello from the other side. I must have called a thousand times to tell you. I'm sorry for everything I've done, but when I call, you never seem to be home. Hello? From the outside, at least I can say I tried to tell you, I'm sorry for breaking your heart, but it don't matter. It clearly don't tear you apart anymore.

Listener Feedback

[01:00:32] Spencer: I want to start the listener feedback with another share about step nine, this from Jan.

[01:00:38]

[01:00:38] Jan: Hi, Spencer, my name is Jan. I have been in Al-Anon for nearly five years and have just done my step nine. If I had to do this step early in my program, I think my amends would've been different, because I was angry having alcoholism in my life. I now know that came from fear, but back then it came from judgment and shame, both towards myself as a mom and towards my son who is an alcoholic.

[01:01:05] I had to go to AA meetings to learn this because I drank and sometimes very unhealthily, but there, for the grace of God, I didn't have the disease.

[01:01:15] Because I have been in the program a long time, I have been making living amends. I now have the awareness when my wrongdoings materialize and have the opportunity to make amends, whether directly to the person or by changing my attitude and behavior so I don't have to sit with the guilt.

[01:01:34] Making amends to my son has been painful. I have written it down and shared with my sponsor, and the relief and freedom it has given me from the pain has been immense. Looking back at my behavior towards my son, from lack of understanding, my own fears, my anger, my shame, all those negative feelings when written down have been cathartic and healing.

[01:02:02] I had to be well into my recovery to be able to do it without self-judgment. And because my amends were about me, I couldn't focus on my son's behaviors and actions, his chaos, his life anymore. I have also made amends to myself because of my guilt and the shame I have felt because of my past actions.

[01:02:24] We say in Al-Anon, changed attitudes can aid recovery. Sadly, my son is heavily in his addiction, but my attitude has changed. I have a loving relationship with him, so, my amends, through self forgiveness are made with compassion for him. And having an understanding of this disease. Living with the uncertainty of the outcome. My powerlessness and now trusting my higher power gives me serenity instead of anger.

[01:02:58] That was the only way I could make amends. It has taken time. I have written letters to myself and my son, and we have spoken about it. He has been to AA meetings but doesn't work a program of recovery and may not be ready for me to hand him a letter or to sit down and speak to him about it. But if that day comes, in the meantime, I can have a loving relationship and I tell him daily that I love him.

[01:03:24] So I'm grateful to the program. Thank you for your service, your program, your podcasts have been a great source of comfort to me.

[01:03:34] Spencer: Thank you Jan, for sharing your experience, strength, and hope about how you have been making amends. And particularly, the difficulty and the power of making amends to your son. Thank you.

[01:03:45] Esther sent us a voicemail.

[01:03:47] Esther: Hi Spencer. Thank you so much for your podcast. I found it right after I went to my first Al-Anon meeting in November, 2021, and it was not so easy to get to in-person meetings. So online meetings and your podcast have been a key part of my recovery and I'm very grateful. I just wanted to suggest a topic. I think I heard a couple of episodes maybe on sponsorship or you've talked also many times about. How you work the steps with your sponsor or how you work, with sponsees. But I feel sometimes a little bit like an outsider in Al-Anon because I hear or read many happy stories of how somebody, a newcomer found a wonderful sponsor and everything was great. But my experience and the experience of some people I've known in the program has not been quite the same. I live in Germany and here there is no such a strong tradition of sponsorship. And also there are not so many meetings as you have in the US so it's not that easy to find a sponsor. I had a, I wouldn't call it negative because I learned many things, but the overall experience was not the best. So I have had to stop working with this person because it was getting kind of very codependent between us. I shared this with other people who have been sponsored by people who follow the same lineage as they call it, as my sponsor. And we all felt there was a lot of control and a lot of judgment, and it was not very loving. Which kind of goes against what Al-Anon is supposed to be about, compassion and understanding for the families of alcoholics. Yeah, I just wanted to suggest that as a topic, if some listeners could share their experience, especially when it's been challenging, I would say. So thank you so much and keep up the good work. Bye.

[01:05:51] Spencer: Esther, thank you for calling and I'm really saddened to hear of your negative experiences with sponsorship. I hear a topic idea of asking other listeners to share their experiences of being sponsored . Perhaps what happened, what they did when that experience was negative or challenging .

[01:06:10] I also hear that you may be looking for a sponsor who can provide a gentler path than the sponsor you had. And I also hear that there's not a strong tradition of sponsorship where you live. We now live in a world where there are virtual meetings that are accessible all around the globe. You could.

[01:06:30] I think broaden the pool of available sponsors by trying some of those meetings. The searchable electronic meeting list is on the Al-Anon dot org. That's a l dash a n o n dot o r g website. At the top of the page you'll find a dropdown menu for meetings, and you would click on global electronic meetings to open that list of, electronic meetings you can sort by day of the week, what platform it's on, what language it's in, what time zone you are in. I think that changes how the time is displayed. So give that a try.

[01:07:10] Karen wrote previously asking for episodes about being the parent of alcoholic adult children. Her earlier letter and my response are in episode 4 31 She wrote back . Good morning, Spencer. My husband and I have been going to see a therapist to get support as we struggle to relate to our adult daughter suffering from mental health and or addiction. He has found it comforting to have this guidance and support from this therapist. Initially, he was open but not drawn to therapy, but now is quick to suggest our setting up appointments. I have also found a tremendous amount of serenity from attending Al-Anon meetings. I am struck by how most of these meetings are, however filled with women around my age or older. I'm 63. I'm wondering if you could recommend any virtual groups where there is a good representation of men. We are suffering greatly. I have been very intentional about not pushing Al-Anon on my husband. I would love to be able to just know of a few options and share them once and then honor his decision.

[01:08:10] We have a very good relationship and I think respecting his choices is a part of that. The weight of our daughter's disease is really bringing both of us to our knees, and as I see him welcoming therapy, I realize that having an Al-Anon group with at least one or two men could be healing.

[01:08:26] Thank you for what you do, Spencer. I'm new to recovery and don't know much about these things. When I have asked about meetings in our town in South Carolina. The one place mentioned is a location that will not work for us. It's the church my parents actively attend and they would sadly be appalled to bump into him there and know he was attending Al-Anon. For them, the disease of alcohol is something you would hide at all costs. Thankfully we can choose another way. Karen.

[01:08:52] I wrote back to Karen. I said, both of the meetings that I attend regularly have men and younger people attending regularly. Both of them are hybrid on Zoom. And I also occasionally attend a virtual only meeting that includes some men. I sent her details about the meetings. I guess I'm fortunate, maybe living in a college town, that there's a much bigger mix of people in my meetings, both in terms of age and gender. I have rarely been to a meeting locally that is mostly women my age, which apparently is not the norm. So, Karen, I hope that those recommendations are helpful.

[01:09:34] Finola writes, dear Spencer, co-hosts, guests, listeners, and contributors, just wanna thank all who have made and contributed to the recovery show. You have helped me more than I can express. I'm so grateful to hear from men and women who are willing to work on their emotional selves and listen to each other's stories.

[01:09:54] Every time I listen to your words and discussions, I feel validated in my own desire to grow and learn. I have been listening for a couple of years. I started at the beginning where I really enjoyed the three-way chemistry between Spencer Swetha and Kelly. I'm so grateful to the girls for giving a year of their lives to help set up this great podcast.

[01:10:14] I hope somehow this thank you will get to them. After they left, I listened popcorn style to various themes depending on what I needed. I'm so grateful to Eric for his long-term contribution and wisdom. Again, the chemistry between you two really pops through the airwaves.

[01:10:29] Recently I have been listening to the more recent episodes, as well as the popcorn style listening. I'm grateful to all who have given their time, experience, and support to the show, including the many regular guests and co-hosts that you have. I'm most grateful to you, Spencer, for the time and effort you give, sharing your experience, strength, and hope in such an eloquent way. And also for that unknown work you do in terms of the technology required to run a podcast so smoothly, I can only imagine the multiple hours or days of work required to offer a one to two hour long podcast. I genuinely hope you get as much out of it as we the listeners do. Please may I wish you well in your retirement from work and the next chapters of your life. We hope to enjoy your continued contributions, one podcast at a time.

[01:11:16] May I also belatedly offer condolences on the loss of your parents? Thank you for your honesty and willingness to keep serving despite your loss. May I also thank your wife or family for giving space to you to do this work? I feel empathy as a wife. I hope to keep in touch as I too try to find my voice again, after living with the burden of addiction in loved ones.

[01:11:37] Take care and keep on keeping on. Yours sincerely, Finola in Ireland.

[01:11:42] Thank you for that letter, and yes, I have to echo those thanks to all of the people who have been guests hosts, who have sent in your own experience, strength, and hope in the feedback section, or as additional contributions to some of our various topic episodes. All of those contributions, I believe, have strengthened and enriched, the podcast.

[01:12:12] Hi Spencer. Thank you so much for the incredible difference you make in this world. I listen and re-listen to so many of the previous episodes. I was just re-listening again to episode 3 79, I heard you or Eric say, fear is about something that hasn't happened. False evidence seeming real. This morning it hit me differently, fear about something that hasn't happened. I have current fears based on things that have happened that are not resolved, that continue to happen. What is that fear called? Reality? Appropriate? I'm stuck right now. Thanks for writing, Diane.

[01:12:48] Episode 3 79, by the way, is titled Letting Go, and we I talked a lot about fear in the context of letting, letting go, fear of letting go, that sort of thing. I would ask you to consider this idea: your fear of these events currently happening or that have happened, that are not resolved might be that the resolution of that thing will be like horrible, will be the worst. When in fact it might not be, it might be okay or even good.

[01:13:21] So the fear is a projection of an undesired outcome. It's not a fear of something that is a hundred percent gonna happen. I mean, if something is a hundred percent gonna happen and it's not gonna be good, then, I still feel like fear is not a helpful response to that. A helpful response is to say, well, what can I do to prepare for this?

[01:13:46] Preparation is not worry. There's some other episodes about worry that I think we say the same thing. Even if your undesired outcome is like 99% likely to happen, it's not a sure thing. And I think that's what I meant when I said that.

[01:14:01] Tina writes. I want to express my deep gratitude for the show and the way you're sharing your experience, strength, and hope in this way. I stumbled across the show while searching for resources in my journey with my sponsor, working through the concepts, and got hooked. I've been listening through the catalog as I've had topics I wanted to learn more about, and I always feel like I've stumbled into a small group.

[01:14:22] Al-Anon meeting. Thank you for doing this, for the honesty, the vulnerability, and the work. Thank you, Tina for writing and for. validating what I'm doing. Thank you. And that's it for this episode.

[01:14:34]

Thank you, Marylou

[01:14:35] Spencer: Marylou, I really wanna thank you for joining me today for our conversation about step nine and contributing your own experience, strength, and hope to our conversation. So thank you.

[01:14:46] Marylou G: Thanks, Spencer. I enjoyed talking with you too. I really appreciate everything that you do, and I think this podcast is so valuable. So thank you very much.

Song 3

[01:14:55] Marylou G: The last song is by Rosemary Clooney and the name of it is Sisters. Some of the lyrics are:

[01:15:01] All kinds of weather. We stick together. The same in rain or sun. Two different faces, but in tight places we think and act as one . I think that kind of sums up what I would've liked for my relationships with my sister to be. Unfortunately it wasn't. So I have a lot of regret about that. Thank you for listening.

Outro

[01:15:24] Spencer: Thank you for listening and please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you are facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding love and peace, grow in you one day at a time.