Intro

[00:00:01] Spencer: How is participation a key to harmony in our activities, in our relationships?

[00:00:07] Welcome to episode 433 of the Recovery Show. This episode is brought to you by Tony, Alba and Shira. They used the donation button on our website. Thank you Tony, Alba and Shira for your generous contributions. This episode is for you.

[00:00:25] We are friends and family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:43] Sarah: Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program. During this show, we will share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you'll find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:01:04] Spencer: My name is Spencer, I am your host today. And joining me today is Sarah. Welcome back to the Recovery Show, Sarah.

[00:01:10] Sarah: Thank you.

[00:01:11] Spencer: You were last here for episode 417, Creating a Personal Higher Power.

Concept Four

[00:01:16] Spencer: Today our topic is Concept Four, which I think it's the shortest of the concepts of service. Five words.

[00:01:25] Sarah: I think it might be the shortest of all.

[00:01:28] Spencer: Yeah. It says participation is the key to harmony. Sounds great. But what does this mean? We're going to be reading, from the book How Al-Anon works, the chapter on the 12 concepts. In particular, the section on concept four, which is on page 132.

[00:01:46] Concept four, participation is the key to harmony. For many of us.

[00:01:50] Participation is not the key to harmony in an alcoholic home. Involving ourselves in actions or discussions usually leads to conflict and discord. As a result, some of us learned to pick fights, while others isolate and stuff our feelings.

[00:02:07] How does that match up with your experience, Sarah?

[00:02:10] Sarah: It rings very true. isolation while trying to manipulate an outcome was my strategy, and I didn't really recognize this until, really, just working through this concept, which I started in April. I'm working through the concepts each month with a book study.

[00:02:28] I remember as a very little girl and my mom tells a story. It's a good memory for her, and I don't really have feelings one way or the other. I used to think it was funny. So I used to get mad when I was, three and four. My punishment would be, I would tell her, I'm not gonna come for dinner. I thought that would be some kind of punishment to them. And my mom said, of course, I always sidled up to the table. So I can see how I was wired to use my presence as currency. Like, I thought if I participated, I might get my own way, and if I didn't, then I could make others, jump through my hoop, so to speak. But, it didn't work and it's led me to isolate.

[00:03:08] But I can see how that pattern has continued in my life. I've done both in personal relationships and in work. If I don't like the conversation or if I don't think they're going to agree with me, or if they're not gonna validate what I'm saying, I just don't participate. I either leave the room, leave the relationship, leave the job. After a certain amount of time, it kind of builds up. I used to think that if I did that, and it was some sort of passive aggressive behavior, that they would come to my rescue, they would see that I wasn't participating and they would want me to participate. So they would come and ask me what was wrong or try and fix whatever it was I didn't like.

[00:03:48] But now that I have this awareness as an adult, and going through this, I realize I can ask my higher power for help. I don't have to know what the next steps are, what the tools will be. I just have to be aware that I'm doing this and it's not serving me how I want it to serve me.

[00:04:05] That's what my experience has been with this.

[00:04:07] It's very new awareness, and turning this over to my higher power to see how I can change and what tools will serve me better.

[00:04:15] Spencer: I'm also an isolator, somebody who steps back rather than participate in conflict of some sort. Or, as you were saying about, I'm not really interested in this conversation. Sometimes, I'll just, stand there and hope that it'll come around to me. to something that I am interested in, but not really participating. Just this week, there's a group of people that I regularly lunch with. We were chatting after we had eaten, and I started a thread of conversation and somebody else came in and started a different thread. and the, conversation went off on that thread. And I'm sitting here saying, you know, I was gonna say something. I, and finally I said, you know what? It's time for me to leave. Because it became clear that I was probably not gonna get back in there. It says something about me too. That I didn't, um, I don't know what I could have done. And I'm sure there's something that if I was a little more assertive, I could have done. But I do tend to let people go in whatever direction they're going.

[00:05:17] Sarah: Yeah, I really resonate with what you're saying. That's exactly what I have done for the first 55 years of my life. It's just, kind of swallow it. If I start a conversation similar to what you just shared and then the topic goes a different direction, part of me is angry that we didn't get to talk about what I wanna talk about.

[00:05:35] And that shows, in my belief, my immaturity. and I've been learning from watching other people to see how they respond, ask questions, and then bring it back to what they were talking about. So to me, it's just a learning curve, but I know for myself that I don't feel good when I just decide to not participate. Then I do feel very isolated and unheard. And not a part of. And that's something I'm really letting go of in 2025, is that thinking that I'm not a part of.

[00:06:08] It reminds me of a story of my cousin when she was a little girl. She came home from school and she was crying and said the kids wouldn't play with her. And her mom, was very upset, you know, was sad because she thought they were picking on her little girl. And she said, well, tell me more about it. And she's like, well, they won't play what I wanna play.

[00:06:27] And I think that's my mentality is if you're not gonna play what I wanna play or talk about what I wanna talk about, then I'm gonna say, you're not being my friend. That's not what I want to be true now. So I'm really willing to look at this over the next, however long it takes to gain better and different tools.

[00:06:48] Spencer: You wanna read the next paragraph?

[00:06:49] Sarah: Yes.

[00:06:51] Through Al-Anon, however, we discover new ways to participate and be a part of the world around us, rather than being apart from it. Just as concept three encourages mutual trust, concept four, concerns mutual respect. When we honestly respect ourselves and those around us, we begin to look at everyone as equals, not as our inferiors or superiors. Without this respect, participation can be the key to chaos.

[00:07:18] Spencer: Oh, key to chaos. Love that.

[00:07:21] Mutual respect. You know, I hadn't thought about it that way. It's hard to have, creating a, a place in which everyone can participate, I think is what I'm trying to get at. In order to do that, one of those things is to have respect for everybody and vice versa. And of course, I can only do me. I can't do other people.

[00:07:46] Sarah: Yeah, and I think what, when you were sharing also what I thought of is, that mutual respect piece. I think it's almost more to have respect for myself. I'm the youngest of three girls and I was five years younger. My sisters are just one year apart. So they're kind of two peas in a pod and they were very close in age, so I just always saw them as knowing more. My words didn't really have any weight. And I can see how that would happen in that scenario when, like you're at the table, we'll say, and I'm five and they're 10 and 11. Of course the conversation's gonna be a whole lot different.

[00:08:22] I remember, really wanting to make my parents laugh because they would laugh at my sister's stories. I would say my stories and of course a five-year-old story, is not that entertaining typically. but I took it, I think, as my words aren't funny, my words don't have meaning. Nothing they did, it just happened as my birth order, I think. and how I was wired. I don't really believe in pointing fingers at my upbringing, my birth order, anything. I think it all contributes. But I also think I came wired with a lot of these defects anyway, as a way to come to my higher power and know that I need help. I can see, how that experience when I was a kid, led me to believe this way or think this way, or use these tools.

[00:09:05] And I took this into adulthood. I can remember, I didn't enter the workforce until I was in my forties for various reasons, but I always assume my coworkers know more, my bosses knew more, and I would just take it. I would take their word as Bible, like what they say is right and I'm wrong.

[00:09:24] What has happened now that I look back on it, is I can tell there was a part of me that didn't really like it, but I would just take it, take it, take it, and then my solution was just to leave. I would just go find a different job. I didn't want that job and I didn't know I was doing that until truly the job I'm in right now.

[00:09:43] Spencer: How does that line up with also coming into recovery?

[00:09:47] Sarah: A lot later. I've been in recovery for like 20 years.

[00:09:51] Spencer: Oh.

[00:09:51] Sarah: I guess you learn as you go. I didn't really discover my higher power until last summer. I was raised in a pretty strict religion and I had the God that religion gives you. I didn't like that God, he scared me, I thought I was always in trouble.

[00:10:05] So I can see where I wasn't willing to give it up because I didn't trust that I had a higher power that would actually help me or take care of the problem or show me another way. But now that I do, it makes all the difference.

[00:10:20] Spencer: I'm thinking about myself here, obviously. I'm the oldest in my family. My brother came along two years later and my sister came along four years after him. So, the three of us had a similar sort of age gap as you experienced, but I was at the other end of it. I certainly exhibit a lot of what you might call typical firstborn behaviors. But when you started talking about work, I think about the, final 28 years of my work career. I was working on the same thing for 28 years. It kept changing, so it stayed interesting. Early on I was very much a my way or the highway type person. Some of that came from my personality. Some of that came from the fact that I basically built the first version of this thing. There were a couple other people involved, but a lot of it was my direction, my ideas, my, shaping.

[00:11:19] As the company got larger, because we had success, and when you have success, you grow. And we went from five people at the beginning to over 400 people by the time I retired.

[00:11:34] Sarah: Wow.

[00:11:35] Spencer: yeah, a good startup

[00:11:37] Sarah: That's awesome.

[00:11:38] Spencer: right

[00:11:39] Sarah: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:39] Somewhere in the middle there, not necessarily before I came into to Al-Anon, I was still trying to assert my way on things. In some cases I actively suppressed participation by others because I had the way. and needless to say, that not lead to harmony.

[00:12:02] No.

[00:12:03] Spencer: In the last episode, I related a story where I had a conflict with a coworker that caused him to walk out of a meeting in a huff. I had to make amends for it, obviously, is why we were talking about that in our step eight conversation. That was like more than 10 years after I'd started in Al-Anon . I thought I had, I mean, maybe I had gotten better, but was still this thing like, I don't agree with you and you're wrong.

[00:12:31] Sarah: Yep.

[00:12:31] Spencer: I know I was making changes in the way I interacted with coworkers during that time because this was a time when there was some really rapid growth going on and a lot of separation into smaller teams. Rightfully so, because it had to. I remember an interaction I had with another person during that time period who was not exactly a boss. I think she was a project manager or something in that realm. We struck a lot of sparks with each other. And I finally felt like, this is not good. This is not the relationship I want to have with this coworker.

[00:13:11] Sarah: I said, Hey, can we go have a cup of coffee outside the office, and just talk about what's going on here? And we did. And we were each able to say how we felt about the ways in which we'd been interacting and things got a lot better after that. I take that as I was trying to apply the principles of the program there, and it worked. Yeah, I was gonna say, as you were sharing that story, it sounds exactly like participation is the key to harmony. Instead of burying your head in the sand or ignoring the problem or hoping it would go away, which is easier to do a lot of times. You didn't, you participated, you guys went out for coffee and you did exactly what it says here, like mutual respect.

[00:13:57] Spencer: Yeah.

[00:13:58] Sarah: Curiosity over like criticism, which I think is so key for me. Participating is, you know, ask a question instead of voicing your criticism, get to know their position better. So yeah, that

[00:14:15] Spencer: That reminds me, I think this is one of the seven habits of highly effective people.

[00:14:20] Sarah: I was just gonna say.

[00:14:21] Spencer: Seek to understand before being understood.

[00:14:24]

[00:14:24] Sarah: I remember that exactly. This happened for me just this week. In my profession, it requires certain licenses that you can lose if you don't behave appropriately. Something came up that I needed to take action. And so I reached out to my office and let them know, Hey, this has happened.

[00:14:44] And they didn't handle it quite the way I thought that they should. And instead of just thinking, oh, they know better, I am the inferior, I'm the little sister. I was like, Hey, wait, this is my license that's on the line and I do need to participate in this. And I don't need to be rude. I don't need to be anything but just to state what I want to be done.

[00:15:05] I don't think it was even an issue for them. I think they're like, oh yeah, that, that is what should be done. But for me it was a little bit scary to speak up and to participate, but I felt like I did it well and didn't let it just slide. Like I've let it, so many times just not wanting to participate for fear of doing it wrong or for fear of being wrong or not being validated. I just have all these fears that stop me from participating. In this instance, and something that would affect my profession and could truly make an impact on me.

[00:15:39] That's kinda what I learned this week is to be brave enough to speak up and then to trust my higher power that it's going to be okay. One thing I think that concept four goes hand in hand with is two of our sayings, let go and let God and live and let live. Live and let live because I'm living my life and letting others live theirs and not looking for validation and not judging them.

[00:16:05] Saying what I wanna say and hearing what they have to say, and then the letting go and let God is: okay, we've both spoken our piece. I'm gonna let the chips fall where they may and trust it's all going to work out. But if I don't participate, I can't really see how those slogans are going to apply in my life as well as I want them to.

[00:16:25] Spencer: I love that. and what you wrote here, I get to speak up and stand up for myself respectfully and not in dominance, and listen to others respectfully and not in judgment or criticism, and then I get to let go and let God. I love that.

[00:16:42] Sarah: Yeah, it's hard for me to remember the dominance part. It's hard for me to remember to say it once and let it go because there's still that defect in me that wants to control the outcome because I think my outcome is the one that will work. And that's not often the case.

[00:17:00] Spencer: The next paragraph says, participation is not the same as interference. It is not an excuse to meddle. We learn to offer our help rather than insist that we know best. If our time, energies, or opinions are not invited, we gracefully allow others the right to handle things in their own way. When we ask others to do a job, even in our own homes, we learn to release our desire to either micromanage or take the job back if it isn't being done the way we would do it.

[00:17:34] Woo. A lot in there.

[00:17:36] Sarah: That is a lot in there. Meddling. I like to meddle. And it doesn't ever get me anywhere.

[00:17:45] Spencer: This sentence about we ask others to do a job even in our own homes, has been a continuing learning experience for me, I guess. In particular as I'm getting older, my wife's getting older. The energy that we used to have to do everything ourselves is diminishing.

[00:18:05] I think our willingness to hire somebody who has the energy, the time, the expertise to do things, also is a factor. We bought this house that we're living in more than 30 years ago. It had a really dark and dingy kitchen that I think had last been remodeled in the 1950s. We knew that was the first thing that we wanted to work on. And of course we had grandiose visions of actually expanding the footprint of the house to make a bigger kitchen. That didn't happen. We couldn't afford it. but we did totally redo it. We took it out to the bare walls, actually in some cases, to the studs. We hired somebody to put in a bay window. So we have a nice big window looking out over the backyard, just above the kitchen sink.

[00:18:58] We did all the rest of the work ourselves. Taking out the old cabinets and appliances and flooring. Putting in a new tile floor. Putting in new cabinets. I guess we hired somebody to put in the counter because that was beyond our ability, but everything else we did ourselves. We were young and we had the energy and we also, I think, didn't have the life experience to tell us that this was gonna be quite a task. Which it was. But we got it done. Over a period of 30 some odd years, things start to wear down.

[00:19:36] It became quite evident that the finish on the kitchen cabinets was one of those things. We actually tried to hire several people to do it, and finally got a guy who not only said he could do it, but he did do it. He did a good job. I have some nits to pick, but, didn't micromanage the job. let him get on with it the way he wanted to get on with it. And, he did it with, minimal disruption to us really. It was a big job. In 1990, I would've tried to do it myself, at least. But now I recognize that it's not really my skillset. It's okay to have somebody else do it, but then I have to let him, do it in his way. There were a couple things, like some corner cabinets and he put the doors back on the wrong side.

[00:20:23] So the first one you opened was quote the wrong one. I said, no, we want it the other way. He's oh, okay. That's not micromanaged. That's like, no, this is the function that we want. Micromanage would be, no, you need to sand this one spot a little bit more.

[00:20:38] That's what sort of came up for me with this.

[00:20:40] Sarah: I can see that, when you hire someone to do a job though, I do think it is tempting. Because I remodeled a house and I guess micromanaging, but also you are paying for it and you do want it done a certain way. But I, as I was reading, listening to you and focusing on that word in the paragraph, micromanage, now I do remember why I wrote what I wrote.

[00:21:02] When I was growing up and raising kids, I created this chart. We were reading some book and the chart had all these little places you would color in to show progress on how far we had gotten as a family. And oh my goodness. Talk about micromanaging. I put the chart together, I drew it, it was like numbers or something, if I remember correctly. It was on a poster board, so it was big. It took a lot of time. And I had an idea of how I wanted this colored, that's how controlling I was. I remember that at the time my then husband colored one in, and it wasn't how I wanted it colored in. And you know what he did after my response was he just didn't participate anymore. And I don't blame him.

[00:21:41] What I learned from that is when you're doing a group project like this, do I wanna focus on the end results? Or do I wanna focus on memories?

[00:21:50] I've seen this with myself in cooking. I just recently left a relationship. But part of what I really enjoyed together with that partner was cooking. When we first got together, I was definitely an overseer of making sure he is doing it right. And I realized straight away that was not going to contribute to anything great. No good memories. It might have a better end product, the meal. The memories wouldn't be that great. So I changed my focus and some of my best memories, is cooking together. Because we didn't micromanage each other.

[00:22:23] To me that's a really good example of participation and doing it in a way that did present harmony. Micromanagement has no place if I'm going to want good memories and truly a group project result versus my result, that I want, which doesn't feed into participation or harmony, either one.

[00:22:45] Spencer: Yeah. That's a really good observation. It takes me back to, to think about when I was working. I was leading a team. We all were contributing towards the end result. And I might've been giving some direction and some structure, but each member of the team was doing their part of the work in the way that they were doing it.

[00:23:04] We were building software. Part of our process was that, you write some code and then somebody else reads it and gives you notes. We call it a code review. When I'm doing that, when I was doing that, I'm not doing that anymore. I may look at the way in which somebody did something and say, that's not the way I would've done it, but it's still a valid way to get it done. In that case, I probably won't say anything because the work they did achieves the desired function. Or I could go in and say, don't do it that way, do it this other way because I believe this is a better way to do it. To me, that's micromanaging and that is not conducive to group harmony, and it's not, also not conducive to getting the work done. If I'm asking you to go back and change something, just because I would like to see it done a different way, then that's extra work that didn't have to get done and it slows us down.

[00:23:59] Sarah: And then when I'm on the end of that, when someone's micromanaging me, that's exactly when I quit participating. Not that that's the right answer. But that's what I have routinely done, is either I micromanage someone else. Or when I'm micromanaged, I just bow out okay, I'm not gonna play your game anymore then.

[00:24:17] The other thing I wanted to bring up as you were sharing and I was thinking about cooking, is when you let other people do it their way, you also recognize talents and you get to see who really likes to do certain portions of the work and who's really good at it. In the cooking example, what we learned is he was really great at all the stuff to do with grilling, with the meat. Very, very good. While I was better at like, timing, like getting us so everything's on the table together at the same time. As a result we had a lot of really, really good meals. Where we both participated and we both really enjoyed the meal. It really serves well to remind me to just let go. Let go of my desire to control or manipulate and see what happens. And often it's better than what I had expected or anticipated.

[00:25:09] Spencer: That is also true in my work experience that if I give everybody the space and the freedom to do things in their own way, there have been times when we've come up with something that is so much better than what I would've created. I'm a solitary cook in my family, pretty much. my wife sometimes will cut things up or something. Now I'm wondering, is that me

[00:25:31] Sarah: you know, it.

[00:25:32] Spencer: is that her? to some extent it's her, but I bet I have some contribution there that maybe has discouraged participation. I have to think about that.

[00:25:40] Sarah: Luckily one of the highlights of this relationship is we were really good at sharing what we thought or felt without really getting too spicy. Basically what he told me is, you're no fun with in the kitchen. And so I knew how he felt and I actively worked on it. I mean, I had to bite it my tongue and stand back and really watch myself in the kitchen. But it was possible and it taught me a good lesson, didn't know it at the time, but yeah, participation is the key to harmony.

[00:26:11] Spencer: Okay, let's move on to paragraph four.

[00:26:14] Sarah: In the ongoing growth and development of the worldwide fellowship of Al-Anon family groups, all of us have a part to play. Participation usually begins when we regularly attend the meeting we come to think of as our home group and share our experience, strength, and hope.

[00:26:30] Spencer: You know, I'm just going to add the next paragraph here because it's one sentence.

[00:26:35]

[00:26:35] Spencer: We participate whenever we are asked to perform Al-Anon service work, help choose and support the group representative, make contributions or share our opinions.

[00:26:44] I think that kind of all goes together. It's is different layers of participation in the group.

[00:26:49] Sarah: Yeah. My takeaway from that was service. I didn't really jump into service. I don't know why. I think mostly 'cause I was stingy with my time and I just was sure I wouldn't have enough time to do all that I wanted to do. But since then I have learned that service has really taught me how to participate in safe places.

[00:27:11] It has given me the playground to fail and to not be told that, Hey, you didn't do that right. Because I just learned on my own like, oh, I need to do that differently. It's just shocking to me. I was thinking about it today actually, that Al-Anon works the way it works with no skilled or trained employees. We all just bumble our way through and somehow it works. I'm really grateful for my service and opportunity and Al-Anon. And now I do service, try to do a pretty significant role regularly because I do subscribe to that slogan that when I got busy, I got better. Getting busy for me in the right things is what was key. I can be busy meddling, I can be busy overseeing and giving out unsolicited advice or I can be busy in service and to me that's where I got better is learning how to participate in Al-Anon.

[00:28:07] Spencer: I really love it here that we have participation at so many different levels here in just these three short sentences. Participation begins when we regularly attend the meeting. Showing up at a meeting is participation. The meeting wouldn't be there if we didn't show up. I think when we talk about service, we usually think of something more than that. Share our experience, strength, and hope. The core of 12 step recovery, really is each of us sharing our own experience, strength, and hope with each other, that we may recover together. that's a paraphrase, I think from the aa big book actually.

[00:28:52] The word service actually doesn't show up till the last sentence. The group that was my home group for the first decade or so of my time in program, had many service positions. You could make coffee, you could stand at the door and greet people. This particular one had a 10 minute lead format. Somebody would give a 10 minute lead on a topic of their choosing and then, sharing would be open. Once a month there was a 30 minute first step lead. And so there was another opportunity for service, still just sharing our experience, strength, and hope. We had a monthly chair who would ask people to do the lead for each meeting, and they would read the script at the beginning of the meeting. At the beginning of each meeting, we handed out the sheets of things that were gonna be read during the opening, the 12 steps and so on. An opportunity for service once, you don't have to make a commitment, just do it once. And then you got the group representative, secretary, treasurer, the literature person, and so on. There's so many different ways to participate. I have been also to meetings where it was very clear that one or two people ran the meeting.

[00:30:00] Sarah: I've been to those. Those aren't my favorite.

[00:30:03] Spencer: The only opportunity to participate becomes sharing experience, strength and hope, and I'm like,it's not such a good experience. I started participating pretty early in my program. That meeting had a half hour after the meeting, beginners meeting. We'd meet from seven 30 to eight 30 and then from eight 30 to nine people who considered themselves beginners could meet with somebody who had some more experience in the program. I took on that a few times after I'd been in the program only six months. I think about how green I was, I knew more than the people who were coming to the beginner's meeting. I'd started working the steps at that point. I had a sponsor at that point. So, you know, was probably doing okay. That meeting thrived and still thrives. And I think part of it is because of the way in which the structure of the meeting encourages participation by the people who are there. Including the people who come in and sit in the back row and occasionally share.

[00:31:00] Sarah: Yeah. That brings to my mind that there's no qualifications. You don't have to be qualified for any of our service positions. Like you just said, I had only had six months under your belt, but you still felt like you were quote unquote qualified to participate. I think that sometimes holds back a lot of people in my experience over the years. You know, they don't feel like they can be a sponsor. They don't feel like they can do certain things because they're not having, don't have enough time under their belt. And I agree more with you that, you had more than the people who are showing up on day one.You were familiar with at least a couple of the steps. I remember the language being so confusing to me when I first started, all these references to the steps and take it to your sponsor and it just was foreign. I mean, at six months, you at least probably have the language at least reeled in a bit, you know, what they're talking about

[00:31:54] I, I agree that

[00:31:56] participation, if it's encouraged in meetings, really aids in recovery and getting people to feel like they belong.

[00:32:04] Spencer: Yes. Oh, for sure. At my first meeting I felt welcomed

[00:32:08] Sarah: and then needed after that. Once I started signing up to do things, it helped me get to meetings when I really didn't wanna go to meetings, because I took my responsibilities pretty seriously, and if I said I was gonna do something, I felt like I better show up and do it.

[00:32:22] Spencer: Yes, I actually have a note on that when we're talking about our lives in recovery later, how that showed up for me recently.

[00:32:28] Sarah: Good. All right. Paragraph six. What concept four does not do is give us permission to intrude on another person's area of responsibility. Members who are already in positions to serve the group deserve our support, encouragement, and trust. We may offer our assistance beyond our own level of responsibility, but our participation depends on whether our offer to help has been accepted. Participation is essential but it is helpful to remember that the goal is harmony, not dominance.

[00:33:00] Oh my goodness, this has just recently happened to me. because I overstepped my fellow Al-Anon in a meeting just last week. In our in-person meeting in our town, and I live in a small town, so it's always a lot of the same people. we recently had some changes in service positions and so there's been changes in the format and we've added, timed shares. Part of that means we ask for a volunteer to be the timekeeper in the beginning of the meeting. Then the person who's leading the meeting gets to choose a format of that. There's a kind of a choice of format you can go with. And Yep. Guess who took over? Me! The person who was supposed to be the timekeeper either forgot or was off in lala land,I like give her a tap on the leg or something, which is not my lane, not my business. And then, the person who was leading wasn't really sure what format to choose. And so of course I just piped right up. Luckily I see these ladies on a pretty regular basis and I saw both of them outside of meetings, thank goodness, a couple days later. And I was able to make my amends. Hey, sorry for being so bossy .

[00:34:07] But the goal is harmony and I have to remember that not dominance.

[00:34:12] Spencer: No kidding. it reminds me of my meeting just yesterday. We're reading through the book, How Al-Anon Works from beginning to presumably back. We just started earlier this year. We read a chapter or some portion of a chapter depending on how big the chapter is. Yesterday morning we're reading along and I'm like, this is a really long chapter. So, at one point I said, maybe we should stop after the next paragraph. We read that paragraph, which was the end of a section, and there was another section coming after that. And then I said, do y'all think we should stop here? Kind of backing up from suggesting to asking. And everybody's like yeah, we should stop here.

[00:34:55] We're doing something new and we're really enjoying it. I had not read that book, really read it, for a long time. I dip into it here and there now. It's been really good. We all shared on that section and we're like, we've still got a half an hour left, so let's read the next section. And off we went. Everybody participated, right? But also, I found myself trying to be directive and tried to back up from that when I recognized that I was doing that. I guess that's the point I was trying to make here. So a little bit of hope or something.

[00:35:27] Sarah: I think some of these defects just came hardwired in me. And, my proof, here's my proof. I remember a family member calling me a buttinski, that was her word. I was little. I was probably four. And I didn't really know what that meant. I think as a little girl, I liked to just be very bossy. Somehow I stifled that bossiness in some areas, like with people who I think are smarter than me or bigger than me or older than me. But if I think it's somebody who I can manipulate, then I am very bossy. And I don't know where my mind makes that distinguish, like where I distinguish between, Hey, this is an area I can be bossy, versus, oh, this is an area I need to back up.

[00:36:07] I guess it's just how I perceive myself around whatever company I am. And then the other thing that's funny is, in my, first grade, we lived, grew up in a real small town and they always had a yearbook, an annual at the end of the year. And it did the whole school K through 12. It was that small of a school. So we'd all get the same yearbook. And I remember coming home from my first grade year and they misprinted my name instead of Sarah, they put Sarge. My older sisters, I didn't understand why they thought that was so funny, but I understand now. I think it all just feeds into what the tools are that we pick up. So I definitely have it in me to be very bossy, domineering, and kill participation that way.

[00:36:53] But I also have it in me to be very silent, passive, bury my head in the sand disinterested. And that also kills participation and harmony.

[00:37:02] Spencer: okay, I need to read this paragraph again. Members who are already in positions to serve the group deserve our support, encouragement, and trust. Yes. Okay. I had, for about three years, position as group records coordinator in my district, which covers roughly the county that I live in. This started in 2021, maybe 20 20, 20 21, right in the middle of the pandemic, anyway. so there were a lot of changes happening. The meetings were going online and so on. People would change their Zoom ID because, I don't know, they got Zoom bombed or something, or maybe they switched to somebody else's Zoom account. Whatever happened. So there was a lot of changes going on, and I maintained a meeting list that we posted as a PDF on the website so people could download the latest version of the meeting list. It wasn't like a huge thing, but I had this responsibility and I did my best to keep up with what was happening and, back and forth communication with the district representative and the person who was in charge of the Al-Anon phone number. We had a cell phone that different people would carry, but they had to have up to date information about meetings because somebody's calling and say, I'm looking for Al-Anon. you wanna be able to tell 'em about a meeting that actually exists. So there was a lot to that and I felt like I was doing a pretty good job. You know, I was contributing. And then, we encourage rotation of service, right? So that everybody has a chance to participate, in the ways that would like to and that they can. I was like, I've been doing this for about three years. I think it lined up approximately with the term of the person who was district rep and she was at the end of her three year term. I figured I'm at the end of my three year term. So I handed it over to somebody else. I said here's the spreadsheet that is the meeting list. Here's what I do with it right now

[00:39:01] Sarah: to,

[00:39:01] Spencer: like,update it on the website. This is yours now. The next time I got an email about a meeting update, I forwarded it to him to make sure he got it, but I didn't touch it. It wasn't hard, but it was also something that I had to consciously and deliberately do. To be hands off, to not touch it anymore, to close the tab in my browser that always had the meaning list open. I gave him what I could in terms of support, encouragement, and trust by letting go. And this, oh man, this is so important. Our participation depends on whether our offer to help has been accepted. Everywhere in my life. You know, like, here, let me do that for you. No, no, Can I help you with that? And if the answer is no, then all right.

[00:39:47] Sarah: There's a cute reel that's around of that. There's a little girl who's trying to get her seatbelt on, like a car seat. And the dad keeps saying, do you want some help? And she keeps saying no. And then finally she's like, you take care of yourself.

[00:40:00] It's a reminder, like the dad really wanted to help. You could see she was struggling and she was very persistent. I do not need your help. I will get this done. Yeah, I have to remind myself of that too, especially when someone's taking on maybe a position that I've held in the past. ‘Cause I don't want them to have to struggle like I did. But that's how we learn really. And, they'll ask for help. If you've offered it and they want it, they know the offer's there.

[00:40:25] Spencer: We're actually at the end of the section, this was the last paragraph. It's helpful to remember. The goal is harmony, not dominance. One of the things that I do in my life and have done for the last decade and a half or so, is work with the teens in my church community. When we get together, whether it's at our regular meeting on Sunday or maybe we're doing a, a weekend overnight or something, we always take time to think about and state how we're gonna be together. We call that a covenant. A covenant is a set of promises we make to each other about how we're going to be together. One of the things that I always try to help them do, or at least emphasize, is to make positive statements rather than negative statements. To give a trivial example, might say don't wreck the church. That's a negative statement. Positive statement is respect the environment that we're in.

[00:41:26] Sarah: Because when you make it negative, it feels like a rule that I have to follow. Whereas, if I say the goal is harmony, then that is something I aspire to. And these promises, these covenants are always things that we aspire to. We recognize that we're not perfect and that we may go outside the bounds of what we've agreed, but we have the space to come back together, because it's aspirational, not legislated. If I said the goal is to not dominate or don't dominate, well that feels like a rule. And it also doesn't give me as good guidance towards how to achieve that goal. There's a whole bunch of things not to do, but it doesn't tell me what to do. If I say the goal is harmony, then I can start thinking about, how do I behave in such a way that we are together harmoniously? It's a personal thing, but I really like making aspirational goals rather than legislation.

[00:42:23] I think you could even just shorten it to not even add, not dominance. Just remember the goal is harmony.

[00:42:32] Spencer: Yeah,

[00:42:32] Sarah: I like that. I like that how you separated that out and brought that to, to light that, you don't even really need to mention the negative part of it. If the goal is harmony, then that's what we'll aspire to achieve, and dominance is never going to find its way into that statement, if you're seeking harmony.

[00:42:54] Spencer: I think so. And I feel like this is something that at least I have grown in recovery? I didn't come into working with the youth until I had been in recovery for four or five years. My kids turned into teenagers and I was like, Hey, I actually like teenagers.

[00:43:14] How about that? who knew? A couple years later, I made a commitment to myself to work with them, to maybe help somebody avoid what happened to me, which is, I left the community that I grew up in when I turned 18 because I didn't understand why I would wanna be there as an adult. But, I also came to just really enjoy our time together. And so I can't say, I wouldn't have had this goal of stating things positively, before I came into recovery because I never had the chance to figure out if that was the case. But I honestly believe that the things that I learned participating in Al-Anon, the traditions. I had spent some time looking at the traditions and seeing how they worked in our meetings to get things done when nobody's the boss. It's just amazing.

[00:44:03] You got anything you wanna close with, on this concept?

[00:44:06] Sarah: I think we've covered it.

[00:44:08] Spencer: Okay. The goal is harmony. There we are.

[00:44:10] Sarah: There we go.

[00:44:12] Spencer: After a short break, we will continue with our lives in recovery, where we talk about how recovery works in our daily lives and in our meetings. And we're gonna take a little break from the work here and talk about the first song you chose.

Song 1

[00:44:25] Spencer: Which is

[00:44:25] Sarah: Brave by Sarah Bareilles. I remember hearing the song early in recovery and really liking the message because it reminds me to be brave in speaking up. And that's something we've been talking about today and the reasons why either I overspeak or don't speak at all.

[00:44:44] I like these lines. You can be amazing. You can turn a phrase into a weapon or a drug. You can be the outcast or be the backlash of somebody's lack of love. Or you can start speaking up. Say what you wanna say, and let the words fall out.

[00:45:02] Honestly, I wanna see you be brave with what you have to say and let the words fall out.

[00:45:08] For me, as we've discussed and shared, I was either afraid to speak my truth, so I would hold it in until I exploded. Or I couldn't hold it in anymore. And then I would, say things that really weren't at issue, they were petty grievances, and I was still afraid to address the real issue. I just like how that reminds me to, it's basically what we talked about before, letting go and letting God. Speak up and say what you need to say then let go of it. As long as you

[00:45:38] say what you mean, mean what you say, and don't say it mean. I want to get to a point where I do speak up instead of either ignoring it, swallowing it, just not participating or speaking in dominance, where I'm just out of control and angry and not speaking even to the issue.

Our Lives in Recovery

[00:46:06] Spencer: In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery. How have we experienced recovery recently? I was thinking about,service actually before we started talking about service, and the importance for me personally, of having a service commitment get me to meetings, sometimes. I have one meeting. It's a good meeting. I've been going to it for a long time. I was group representative for a while.It's Sunday evening and by the time I get to Sunday evening, I'm not feeling it, but I'm one of the two or three people that has a key to open up the church to get in. So I either have to make arrangements for somebody else to do it, and one of the guys who has a key is now hundreds of miles away with his wife taking care of his brother-in-law who had knee surgery, so he can't do it. I have this commitment to get in there, open the church, get out the literature cart and all that stuff. and I'm happy to do that and I'm really happy that it gets me there because when I get there and when everybody comes in and when we start the meeting, I'm glad I'm there. It's just that getting over that hump of getting in the car and driving and, you know. It's not every Sunday, but it definitely happens. And so having that commitment is really important to me to get me there.

[00:47:28] I talked about giving up this responsibility as a group records coordinator at the district level. so I don't need to go into that one again.

[00:47:35] There's a related thing to commitment, which is accountability. I have a commitment to myself to stay healthy. I'm gonna turn 70 this year and I want to continue to be healthy. I want to continue to be able to go out and do things. I have some medical conditions that it's a good idea for me to get various kinds of exercise because it helps to reduce at least the impact of the condition. All those are like self-motivating things, right? But one of the things that really gets me to go to the gym regularly is being accountable. And I could be accountable to myself, but that's harder. So I'm accountable to a trainer who I'm seeing now once a month, but he's gonna say, so how did you do last four weeks? and I can say, I am, try to go twice a week.

[00:48:25] And it was one week where I missed a day and, and, but can see this exercise, I'm doing more reps or I'm doing more weight or whatever, so I can see and look, I can stand on one foot for 30 seconds now instead of 20. I could do those to me, but having somebody outside me really helps to motivate me. Maybe this is a crutch to get me to the point where I'm like, if I don't go to the gym, I feel it. I feel like I'm leaving something out of my life. I've heard that can come. We'll see.

[00:48:56] This is the self-examination, the self understanding that the steps gave me. To understand that I actually need to be accountable to somebody in order to get certain things done. Okay, then let's do that. I'm accountable to my dentist for keeping my teeth healthy.

[00:49:14] Sarah: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean that, I don't know how many of us would do as good if we didn't know we had to go own up every six months.

[00:49:21] Spencer: Just thinking about my life recently and a couple of inputs that I've had. I read a letter in the previous episode, number 4 32, about step eight. The person who wrote in was asking, there's a lot of stuff going on the world right now that is really affecting me, and I don't know how I can talk about this within the context of the traditions because it's about politics and stuff. And we don't talk about politics, which is a good thing. I don't know, some people would consider the fact that the things that are happening around me affect my wellbeing, my peace, my serenity, and they might consider that an outside issue. And maybe it is, but we are supposed to practice these principles in all our affairs. So I have to think about how do I apply my steps, my traditions, and all the tools that I've learned in Al-Anon to the rest of my life. When my peace, my happiness, my serenity is severely affected by what's happening outside of me, outside of my family, then I think at least asking or sharing how program tools are helping me deal with it can be not an outside issue. Okay. Having said that, you know, this week there was another school shooting. What the hell? why are we at a point where this is like an ordinary thing? I don't understand it, and it really makes me angry and sad at the same time. And I have to take a breath or five. I have to recognize that this is something that is totally outside of my control. and I have to ask my higher power for the peace and serenity to have the acceptance that it happened. No matter how much I don't like it, no matter how much I think that it shouldn't ever happen. I don't know.

[00:51:14] It's tough. It is tough. The other thing that happened this week was, I was listening to a podcast, Barb N who was on this podcast a while ago, about boundaries. 3 96 Boundaries Revisited. She has her own podcast called Fragmented to Whole, and her most recent episode was about how she has for her own peace of mind and sanity, decided that she is not going to follow the news and she's been doing this for several years and how it's working for her. and I was like, wow, that is a concept that I don't think I could do. I have set some real boundaries on how much, and on how I consume news these days. Because if I dive in, even when it's news about something I agree with, it can still cause me to get off balance. I can read it because if I'm reading it and it triggers me, I can put it down. I can say I'm not gonna read anymore, or I'm not gonna read anymore right now. If it's coming at me, on a streaming medium, like radio or tv, it's harder I can't put it down and come back to it later because then it's not there.

[00:52:29] Anyway, I'm glad I have these tools, and also the tools of like enjoying the moment, like what's happening right now. Right now, today it's a nice sunny day. It's a little chilly, but it's really beautiful outside. And I can look out the window and see the sun shining on the trees, which are starting to leaf out. And that's a good thing, and having gratitude for the moment is something I definitely learned in my recovery. And with that, I think I will pass.

[00:52:55] Sarah: Thank you. so what my recovery has looked like lately is, as I mentioned, recently, my partner and I decided to end a relationship of four years. as you can imagine, it's been hard, it's been fraught with a lot of emotion, as grief tends to be. And I've definitely experienced so many emotions over the last four weeks of this, anger, sadness, compassion, frustration, bargaining, self-doubt, freedom, happiness, relief, and then they just cycle like, you think, you're like, all right, I'm outta the woods. I'm feeling good, happy, I feel free.

[00:53:32] Then the next day you wake up and you're just, angry or super sad. so anyway, one day this week I was just feeling a lot of compassion. I feel compassion for both of us. I just want us to be friends. and we have discussed that, that we just wanna be friends, but it, that takes time. And the timing on that depends on each other's recovery and healing and space needed.

[00:53:53] I had the email queued up. I was ready to like email and say, Hey, I hope you're doing well. I just wanna be friends and, have that type of a conversation. But instead of pulling the trigger like I am prone to do, especially when I feel like I'm triggered to an act of like love or compassion or nice behavior, instead I decided to take it through the program. You know, call someone reason it out. Get a different perspective. And what came up is, what's your motive? what's your motive? Like, why are you feeling this today? Why are you wanting to do this at this point? And I hadn't thought about it, but after some probing, it was because I wanted to tidy up loose ends. I didn't like that discomfort of unsettled or not knowing. Tidying up the loose ends would make me feel better. And that my true motive was not really to check on my partner, like that was a part of it. But definitely I just was, I wanted this tidied up. So I paused and I sat with my motive and this thought came: the ninth step teaches us that amends should never cause harm to ourselves or others.

[00:55:00] So my friendly gesture that I was thinking was so great and full of love and altruism could risk reopening wounds, either his or mine. it's, it is recent. four weeks is not much time really to heal from a relationship of length. And then I like this. I can hold the intention of friendship, but I don't have to act on it right now.

[00:55:23] I can let this sit and happen organically. , Time is a powerful clarifier. If the friendship is meant to evolve, it will happen gently without me needing to force it. That gets down to, I think I wanna get things done. I like checklists, I like checking things off a list, and I don't like to wait for things to happen on their own. I get trigger happy. I just recently heard this and I love it: if you're feeling triggered, put down the gun. I'm like, that is for me.

[00:55:57] One thing I've been trying to do is give it at least 24 seconds, and if I can get to 24 seconds then I go to 24 minutes, and if I get to 24 minutes, I'm like, I bet you can do 24 hours. And then, I rarely even remember it in 24 hours. But I'll tell you what, if it's something that needs to be done. I'll remember it in 24 hours. And so that's been a really good tool for me to not pull that trigger. Especially if I think it's a nice behavior, like something I should do, but that wasn't my motive.

[00:56:30] And so I'm really grateful for the clarification that you can get when you reason it out with someone in Al-Anon.

[00:56:38] Spencer: Wow. That's great.

[00:56:40] Sarah: It was pretty powerful for me. Like I really thought, wow, what an eyeopener. and I guess the good thing is I'm at ease with it now. Like, before, those things used to needle me. If I felt like, you should write a thank you or you should do this, it never occurred to me to check my motives on the good, quote, unquote actions I wanna do.

[00:57:02] Spencer: Yeah. That, what are my motives question has been really powerful for me at times too.

Upcoming on the podcast

[00:57:09] Spencer: Moving forward, we've got, steps 12 through nine. We're still on the steps. gonna finish 'em. Later this week I'll be recording, step nine with, another guest. We welcome your thoughts. You can join our conversation. Please leave us a voicemail or send us an email with your feedback or questions.

[00:57:27] And you put in some thought questions for those steps here.

[00:57:32] Sarah: Step nine: made direct amends to such people wherever possible except when to do so would injure them or others. Question, am I making my amends with humility and sincerity, or am I seeking to protect my ego or control the outcome?

[00:57:46] Step 10, continued to take personal inventory. And when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

[00:57:53] Question, what patterns in my thinking or behavior have I noticed lately? And how can I respond to them with honesty and self-compassion? That one's big for me because, I don't have self-compassion. That's why I don't wanna do a personal inventory sometimes of the situation that I've done. 'cause I'm, I'm used to being hard on myself.

[00:58:15] Step 11 sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God. Question, how am I staying connected to my spiritual path? This one's actually really good today. 'cause today, you and I had scheduled to do this, but I really wanted to go skiing. And so I asked my higher power last night, should I just ask to reschedule this?

[00:58:35] or what? And the thought came, just go ahead and prepare for it then take this up tomorrow and you'll know what to do. I started to prepare for it last night. And, it was really, a good spiritual connection to go through the concept four, and to figure out what I wanted to say today. It brought to my mind just focus more on my spiritual path versus getting out there and doing things. There's needs to be a balance for me. So it was really nice to not give into that desire to go play versus, focus on doing something that would increase my spirituality.

[00:59:13] And then 12, step 12. Having had a spiritual awakening, try to carry this message to others. Question, in what ways can I share my experience, strength, and hope with others without trying to fix them?

[00:59:27] Spencer: All wonderful questions. Whether you might wanna be the guest talking about the step, or send in your own share, they're all great questions to consider. Thank you for that. And Sarah, how can people send us feedback?

[00:59:43] Sarah: You can send a voice memo or email to feedback at the recovery dot show, or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 7 3 4 7 0 7 8 7 9 5. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer. We'd love to hear from you.

[01:00:06] Share your experience, strength, and hope, or your questions about today's topic of concept four or any of our upcoming topics, including steps nine through 12. If you have a topic you'd like us to talk about, let us know

[01:00:21] if you would like advanced notice for some of our topics so that you can contribute to this topic. You can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback at the recovery show. Put email in your subject line to make it easier to spot.

[01:00:37] Spencer: Our website is the recovery dot show when we have all the information about the show. Mostly the, show notes for each episode, which include links to the books or book. I think we only read from one book today. Videos for the music that Sarah chose. And, there's also, there are some links to other recovery podcasts and websites.

Song 2

[01:00:57] Spencer: What is your second, song selection for us, Sarah?

[01:01:00] Sarah: It's Man in the Mirror by Michael Jackson, and I'm sure a lot of people have probably loved this song. it's just a reminder to be the change you wish to see. And it reminds me that it really does start with me, and that does require participation in life. For me, what it resonates is it requires participating where it may not be comfortable. Having an open mind with those that are different from me.

[01:01:26] My participation requires me to sometimes be kind where it would be easier to walk away, also to stand up for others, even when it's not the popular choice. That for me is really something strong that I like to do when I'm in a situation where I feel like the person or people or a group is largely not able to stand up for themselves for various reasons.

[01:01:52] I really feel like that is an area where my participation, especially if I'm in a position to speak up, that I should, even if it's hard or it's going against the grain, so to speak. And then the last one that helps me is speaking up and being vulnerable and risking criticism. That I think is largely what has stopped me in many conversations is I don't want criticism, I only want validation, and that is not really participation because that's me only wanting to be around people who think and say, and do what I think and do and say.

[01:02:29] I love the line, if you wanna make the world a better place, take a look at yourself and then make a change.

[01:02:35]

Listener Feedback

[01:02:43] Spencer: An announcement before I get to your feedback. I will be attending the AA International Convention in Vancouver, Canada this July. If you are also attending, please email me feedback at the recovery show so we can connect at the conference. I think that would be fun.

[01:03:04] Rachel left a comment on episode two 10, living with death. I just sat and cried and cried and cried listening to this episode. My mess of feeling seems too entangled and mixed up to unravel right now, but I know there is some catharsis in hearing my own deepest fear that my alcoholic will die, reflected back at me through the words of others.

[01:03:26] I cannot thank you enough for your show and this episode in particular. Thank you, Rachel, for that response. It's a tough topic, but it is one that I think is important for us to confront, maybe a word.

[01:03:42] Berta left a comment on episode 18, step four, doing the inventory. So this is our first time through step four in the podcast back in, 2013, I think.

[01:03:53] Yeah, she writes, I wanted to say that I discovered you about six months ago and am beyond words in gratitude that I did. This episode especially, there are other earlier ones, but this particular one is where I am at in my life and I clearly can see with all that you shared that it's just for me and it's time. I did a lot of Googling before I found this recovery show, and I use it. I need it. I love it. Every single day. I appreciate every one of you and all the guests that I've heard up to this point. I also appreciate the music. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.

[01:04:27] Well, thank you Berta. And this is one of the reasons that I keep all the episodes up there because they are still important. They are still helpful, they're still relevant.

[01:04:39] Pete has written earlier about what and whether, and how, I guess, to share about how the uncertainty in our country, our society has affected her.

[01:04:50] She recently let me know that she said this in a meeting. Quotes. I am struggling with things larger than myself. Which, I think is a beautiful way to put it. I'm often struggling with things larger than myself and maybe I don't have to go any deeper than that in a meeting context. As she says elsewhere in her response, this is why alapals are useful, because we can go deeper, we can talk about things that, in a meeting, would be outside issues, but are not in our personal life.

[01:05:23] Terri writes, hi. I have really appreciated listening to your podcast. I think it is very well done, and the format structure is professional and approachable. I've grown to respect you and your guest host's perspective and opinion. I was wondering if you have any content related to changing the wording in readings during meetings.

[01:05:44] It has become a controversial topic in our area. Specifically related to changing the word him to God in reading the steps and adding the words to the opening statements and addicts following alcoholics. Have you covered this topic? Can you let me know the episode number? Thanks Terri C

[01:06:03] Terri, no, we have not, as far as I can recall, talked about these topics on the podcast. I dug into the World Service Conference notes and I found on page 17 of the 2024 World Service Conference summary, which you can find on the Al-Anon dot org website, on the members menu. Slide down to World Service Conference, parenthesis WSC, and then either click on WSC summary for the most recent one, or WSC summary archive to find all of them. I think back to 1960 something.

[01:06:40] Anyway, in the 2024 WSC summary, there's a section titled Gender Neutral Policy Discussion on page 17, which leads with this question that was submitted to the policy committee of the conference. Quote: Is the gendered language in the steps and traditions in alignment with Al-Anon legacies. End quote.

[01:07:02] They apparently had a discussion. The indication in the summary is that there was not going to be a decision made at that point. That the discussion was to help inform the policy committee for further consideration. I thought at one point I had found records of policy committee, deliberations, but I can't find it now. So if one of you knows where those are, let me know.

[01:07:26] In other words, there is currently no official guidance from the WSC on the question of God language. So without that, I think that a group could, under tradition four, decide to permit it or forbid it. So there's that. I also recently heard a Muslim member of AA in a podcast state that in Islam, Allah is neither male nor female, and therefore it is counter to his religion to use the words he and him when referring to Allah, i.e. God. So that's an interesting one from the point of view of accessibility of the program, to people who, are not adherent to a Christian religion, I think.

[01:08:13] Anyway, there's a lot of questions there. There's also the stringent policy that in order to officially change the wording, it requires a vote of three quarters of all of the Al-Anon groups. So it would be really, really hard to officially change it, but to say, you can use the word God instead of the word he, when you're reading them, I don't know. it's a tricky one.

[01:08:36] As to this question of adding addicts in the opening, the Al-Anon pamphlet, Al-Anon spoken here, is pretty clear about keeping the focus on alcoholism. The Al-Anon, FAQ, which you can find at, Al-Anon org slash newcomers slash FAQ has this question. My friend slash loved one is a drug addict. Can I go to an Al-Anon meeting? The answer is, the primary purpose of Al-Anon is to provide support to the friends and families of alcoholics in a recent membership survey, 35% of our members said they joined our program because of a loved one's drug addiction and that their lives had improved since attending meetings.

[01:09:19] There is another program Naranon, which is for people affected by a loved one's drug addiction. You can visit their website at Naranon dot org. You're also welcome to try Al-Anon meetings, then decide if the Al-Anon program might be helpful to you.

[01:09:34] So the official policy is we say alcohol, we don't say drugs or addicts, but it's also true that many Al-Anon members are in the program because of an addiction to something other than alcohol in their loved one. So that's the way I read Al-Anon's official position or no position on these questions. Thanks for writing. it's a tricky one, and I can see where there would be controversy.

[01:10:00] Ezra wrote Spencer, I so enjoyed the deep dive into step eight and the discussion between you and Pat.

[01:10:06] So he's talking about the most recent episode 4 32, about step eight with Pat. Let me start over.

[01:10:13] I so enjoyed the deep dive into step eight and the discussion between you and Pat. It was most enlightening. I'm glad that the two of you mentioned that just because someone doesn't like what I did, it doesn't necessarily imply that I caused them harm.

[01:10:26] That was a valuable lesson for me to learn early in the program. It goes along with, what another person thinks of me as none of my business. Still, it does make sense to look at those things just to make sure there isn't something for me to improve.

[01:10:39] One technique that works for me in making a step eight list of all persons I have harmed is to write down:

[01:10:44] One, any person who I would avoid if I saw them walking on the street.

[01:10:48] Two, any person who I used to associate with and am now estranged from.

[01:10:53] And three, any institution or organization that I used to attend or participate in and am now actively avoiding because of resentment or discomfort.

[01:11:03] These three categories provide me with plenty of names to put on my step 8 list. Making amends to institutions requires some creative thinking on my part. Thanks again for your service. I appreciate your podcast very much.

[01:11:16] thank you Ezra for that. I don't know if I said it during the conversation with Pat, but definitely people that I feel uncomfortable meeting, are people that I need to think about whether they belong on that list. Hadn't thought about your other two categories, but that could be very helpful, I think. Yeah. Dan left us a voicemail.

[01:11:37] Dan: Hi. I was recommended to this site to listen to a Tom W talk about recovery. I think it was episode 1 98 and I was told that he talks on others and I tried to do a search, but nothing came up. Could you please send me some information on that. I'd love to hear more Tom W.

[01:12:01] Spencer: I have uploaded two of his talks into the podcast. You talked about number 1 98, and there's also an episode two 50, and I think one of those is a Al-Anon talk, and one of those may be an AA talk. I would've to actually go back and listen to them to be confident, which is which.he is a member of both programs and does talk from the perspective of both programs.

[01:12:26] There are definitely more talks, probably many available online, sites such as x a-speakers.org and also on YouTube. If you search for Father Tom w they should show up.

[01:12:40] Chris writes, hi Spencer. First thank you for your podcast. I've been a member of Al-Anon for about a year. Very early on, I realized that the God aspect was going to be challenging for me. And in searching for options, I came across a couple of your podcasts where other members shared how they found solutions for this. These were extremely helpful and gave me a way forward. So thank you and those guests.

[01:13:01] I was trained as a pet behavior counselor, and I'm fascinated by the parallels to our own behavior. I tend to describe it as my blessing and my curse. My blessing, because I have the background knowledge that helps me understand what is going on. My curse, because it gave me another way to beat myself up for not doing the right thing when quote, obviously I knew better. Allowing myself to make mistakes is a work in progress.

[01:13:22] I am enjoying working my way through your back catalog and have listened to some of your reflections about retirement. In particular, your frustrations about making plans, and then losing a morning, and my brain interjected, rebound behavior.

[01:13:36] Rebound behavior is when a suppressed behavior comes back stronger. When the suppression is removed. The classic is the dog that barks all night because it is punished for barking during the day. The presence of the owner suppresses the barking during the day because the owner has been associated with punishment. But at night, the owner sleeps, the suppression is removed and the barking comes back worse.

[01:13:56] I guess at work we are normally quite controlled in what we do and when, and what I heard you describe was someone enjoying doing what they wanted, when they wanted. Could this be a rebound behavior? I couldn't help wondering if this might be a fundamental need that was being expressed. How often do we get to relax with no deadline and no demands? I know that I myself find that kind of activity very hard not to interpret as quote, wasting time. And I'm having to learn that, of course, self-care is never a waste of time.

[01:14:22] If this is not helpful, then please take it or leave it. Of course, human behavior is not pet behavior, and I could be totally wrong Sometimes my fascination with the parallels takes me places I shouldn't go.

[01:14:33] I love your podcast and the care you demonstrate for others. You deserve to spend your retirement however you wish, Chris.

[01:14:39] Well. I hadn't thought about that, Chris, that like I had spent 50 years with my schedule being controlled and now I have my freedom and I'm really, taking advantage of it. Interesting ideas. Of course, when it means that I don't get the podcast out when I wanted to, that requires some self-examination and possibly,asking my higher power for some help.

[01:15:04] And that's it for today. That's what we got from you. Keep those cards and letters and voicemails coming.

Thank you, Sarah

[01:15:10] Spencer: Sarah, thank you again for joining me today for this real deep dive into concept four. I feel like we, we did a good job on it.

[01:15:19] Sarah: Yes, I did too. I liked the conversation.

[01:15:22] Spencer: Thank you.

Song 3

[01:15:23] Spencer: You got one more song?

[01:15:25] Sarah: The last song is Follow Your Arrow by Casey Musgraves. It's just a great song, which has reminded me that it doesn't matter what you do, you're not gonna make everyone happy. Someone will like what you do and there's another group of people that are gonna find what you did inappropriate or not something that they agreed with.

[01:15:43] And here's how the artist puts it: if you save yourself for marriage, you're a bore. You don't save yourself for marriage, you're a horrible person. If you can't lose the weight, then you're just fat. If you lose too much, then you're on crack. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. So you might as well just do whatever you want. So make lots of noise, kiss lots of boys, or kiss lots of girls. If that's something you're into. Just follow your arrow wherever it points.

[01:16:12] To me that just says, you've gotta risk not being loved or approved or validated by everyone when you choose to participate in your life. I do wanna participate in my life and I wanna do it in a way that is respectful of myself and of others. And I think that's possible. You can do things that people don't agree with and still, I think find harmony. So long as there's no dominance, you're not trying to force your way onto them, and they're not trying to force their way onto you.

[01:16:47] Spencer: Thank you for listening. Please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you're facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding, love and peace grow in you one day at a time. ​