Intro

[00:00:01] Spencer: How do we make a list of all the people we have harmed and then become willing to make amends to them all?

[00:00:08] Welcome to episode 432 of the Recovery Show. This episode is brought to you by Raquel, Kathy, anonymous, and Kimberly, they used the donation button on our website. Thank you, Raquel, Kathy, anonymous, and Kimberly for your generous contributions. This episode is for you.

[00:00:25] We are friends and family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction, understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:42] Pat: Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program. During this show, we will share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you'll find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:01:05] Spencer: My name is Spencer. I'm your host today and joining me today is Pat. Welcome back to the Recovery Show, Pat.

[00:01:12] Pat: Thank you, Spencer.

[00:01:14] Spencer: We'll be using the section on step eight from the book, how Al-Anon works for Families and Friends of Alcoholics. In the paperback edition, that's pages 57 to 59. I know it does vary a little bit between editions.

Step 8

[00:01:28] Pat: Step Eight made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

[00:01:34] First paragraph. Most of us come to Al-Anon with a distorted sense of responsibility. At first, some of us are a unable to name a single person we have harmed, feeling that we have been the victims of other people's cruel or insensitive behavior rather than the perpetrators. We're so focused on others that we miss the fact that our own behavior has not always been so wonderful. No matter how pure our intentions, our actions have consequences, and sometimes intentionally or unintentionally, we hurt those around us. At the time, we may have rationalized our poor treatment of others, feeling that we were only reacting to the way we had been treated, or that we had no choice. But if we set all self-justification aside and keep the focus strictly on ourselves, we must admit that we were responsible for causing harm.

[00:02:29] Spencer: When I got to step eight, I was like, have I hurt anybody? I don't know. You know, so this, at first, some of us are unable to name a single person we have harmed. Part of that is the harms that had been done to me were upfront.But then, I thought about it a little bit. I thought about at least my immediate family, my wife and my children, had been harmed by my behavior in many ways. so set all self justification aside, keep the focus on ourselves. See, that keep the focus strictly on ourselves part, too. That, not so easy, especially early in program. I started working the steps a couple months after I came into Al-Anon, and I think it was about a year before I got to step eight, but I was still pretty young in the program. And still in the, the alcoholic chaos also, which I think made it more difficult to keep the focus on myself. This other thing about intentions. In the youth group that I work with, we talk about considering impact over intentions.if I say something and somebody else is like, ouch! Even if I didn't mean to hurt them, the impact was that they were hurt.

[00:03:47] I might have the best of intentions. But it just might not work out that way. So I think that's important too. How about you? What's this paragraph say to you?

[00:03:57] Pat: As you spoke about intention, it crossed my mind that, so much of my response to being in an alcoholic relationship, was one of trying to control my world, control those around me. I think, it was a survival tactic at the time. And in trying to be controlling, I think many times I thought my actions were for the best reasons and for the best.

[00:04:23] So I think I caused a great deal of harm thinking I was doing the right thing. Not necessarily doing that, but certainly trying to control those around me. Including not letting people feel the consequences of their own actions. I think that's where a lot of the harm. In this first paragraph, I see a lot of the basic principles. I mean, by the time you've gotten to step eight, you've touched on a lot of these issues, I think. Rationalizing and justification for our actions. The program really gets us to look at ourselves honestly. And the more honest we are, the more we can admit to our motivations around our actions.

[00:05:08]

[00:05:08] For me, a lot of that was I would rationalize and justify my actions, but also that I did have a distorted sense of reality and I needed perspective. The program as I've been working at Steps one through seven gets me to a place in step eight where I've started having a better understanding of my place in my relationships and my place in the world, of what is and is not mine to make choices about. That's what I thought.

[00:05:41] Spencer: Alright, let's move on to the second paragraph.

[00:05:44] Others of us carry an unwarranted burden of responsibility, believing ourselves to be the source of most of the pain and suffering in our lives and in the lives of those around us. We feel that we have harmed everyone with whom we have come in contact. This is just as much a distortion of reality as thinking we have done no harm. Sometimes people's suffering is of their own making. Sometimes pain is just a part of life and sometimes we contribute to the problem. Step eight provides an opportunity to learn the difference between what is and is not our responsibility and to take a more realistic look at the effects of our actions.

[00:06:24] What do you see in that for you?

[00:06:26] Pat: This really ties back for me to step four. I feel like step four, step eight and step 10 are all tied together within the program. They all link. I feel like this paragraph talks about that building that we've done on step four. I remember working with a sponsee and their list of character defects was extremely long. But in working through that list, we were able to identify what were actual moral issues and what were things that somebody else just didn't like her choice. It was very freeing. So then that led to step eight, where the list of amends were quite short. But I love this middle part. That really teases it out. Sometimes the suffering isn't ours to take responsibility for. Sometimes it's just part of life and sometimes we've contributed to the problem. So I really like that it breaks that down. And it's just that last section,where we really have to look at whatwe actually have to make amends for. How about you, Spencer?

[00:07:38] Spencer: For me, as I said, I, when I first got to step eight, I was like, who did I hurt? Did I hurt people? I don't think I had this unwarranted burden of responsibility , believing myself to be the source of most of the pain and suffering around me.That certainly became more evident in working the earlier steps. In working step four in particular.

[00:08:02] Pat: Nowhere does this step say that we listed the harm others have done to us. Although we do not have to accept unacceptable behavior, it is not our job to pass judgment upon what others do or to punish anyone for their wrongs. Our job is to concentrate on our part in our conflicts with others and what we have done to cause harm.

[00:08:27] I have such a strong reaction to that little tiny paragraph, 'cause stuck in the middle of it is this phrase, we do not have to accept unacceptable behavior. And that is such a huge, how do I put it? It's just such a huge thing that we have to realize. Learning to make, boundaries, learning to set boundaries, that are realistic and appropriate. I think is so integrated into this step.

[00:09:00] I mean, it's, it's understanding that we have caused harm to ourselves and how have we caused harm to ourselves, oftentimes by not having healthy boundaries. And then I think it segues nicely into step nine, where in making amends to ourselves, maybe part of that is making healthy boundaries.

[00:09:23] This one little phrase in there just really jumps out at me. not passing judgment. That took many years of work for me to remember that it's not my job to judge another person. And really to always bring the focus back on myself. I like to say whatever the situation, if someone's upset with me,I can look at it. And even if I have only 2% of the responsibility for the situation, it's still the 2%, and I can address that part of it.

[00:09:58] Spencer: For sure. Do not have to accept unacceptable behavior. That one kind of jumped out at me too, I know when I was hearing about acceptance, accept the things I cannot change. Well, what about unacceptable things? how do I accept those? Right? I've looked at acceptance in a lot of different situations and from a number of different angles, throughout my time in, in program.

[00:10:23] I heard this on another podcast recently, that what I may need to accept is that things that were outside of my power happened. I don't have to say they were good. I don't have to say I liked them or to not say I didn't like them, I guess.But I can't change the fact that it happened. So when that comes to unacceptable behavior, particularly in a person who persists in a certain pattern of behavior, my acceptance there is that this person has behaviors that I find unacceptable. That then points me hopefully towards actions I can take to remove that person, or remove the situations in which they behave in certain ways, from my experience, from my life. I think that's what I keep coming back to with acceptance.

[00:11:23] What you said about boundaries, the way of dealing with harms that others have done to me or may do to me is to figure out appropriate boundaries that I can enforce. And that I have to accept the possible consequences of enforcing the boundary. But as it is not my job to say,that person is bad, however much I might think that. By my judgment they're a bad person, presumably by their judgment, they're being appropriate. I don't know. it is not my job to punish anyone for their wrongs. And again, this gets a little tricky. Punishment, in my understanding, rarely leads to change behavior.

[00:12:04] Pat: and it's taking the focus off ourselves.

[00:12:06] Spencer: and is taking the focus off me. Right?

[00:12:08] Pat: There's nowhere in Al-Anon that says anything about punishing another person. I think that's so much about what the program says is putting things in their proper perspective. And very solid, proper perspective is I'm not responsible for other people's behavior. If they cause harm to me, it's my job to think about what do I wanna do in response to that in a thoughtful, positive way that works for me.

[00:12:37] Spencer: I didn't cause it. I can't cure it. I can't control it. I know I felt that significant harm had been done to me, was still being done to me at this point, by the behavior surrounding the active alcoholism in my loved one. You know, she was drinking at me. Well, she was not drinking at me, but, it took a while to figure that out, right?if she loved me, she would stop drinking.Until I was able to look at how I acted, or I should say reacted, probably because reaction to me implies you're not really thinking about it, you're just doing it. How I've reacted to the alcoholic behavior and the harms that my actions, my reactions, then caused, Those are the things that I need to list in this step.

[00:13:31] Fourth paragraph.

[00:13:33] Usually there is one person upon whom we have inflicted the greatest damage. I'm gonna pause there, because one person upon whom we have afflicted the greatest damage, I might've said, the alcoholic in my life. Or I might've said my children.

[00:13:46] If I just read the first part of that sentence and stopped at that dash.but it continues, ourselves.what, how did I hurt myself? Wait, what are you talking about?

[00:13:58] Most of us have been cruel and more negligent to ourselves than to anyone else. By our reactions to the disease of alcoholism and our desperate efforts to survive in difficult situations, we have harmed ourselves mentally, physically, and spiritually. So before any other names are added to our eight step list, most of us need to write our own name.

[00:14:19] I'm just, we have harmed ourselves mentally, physically, and spiritually. And when I think about the ways in which I acted before coming into recovery, all of those, mentally, physically, and spiritually happened. I could look at those as consequences, but some of them were deliberate.

[00:14:41] Certainly as a result of the ways in which I reacted mentally and emotionally to the alcoholic behavior, I didn't get enough sleep. I found myself, as I've said many times before, very angry a lot of the time. That's a spiritual harm. Not getting enough sleep, I think is both mental and physical and possibly spiritual harm as well. I didn't know how to do it differently. I didn't have any tools, for example, to, to help me get to sleep when things around me were not the way I wanted them to be.

[00:15:20] The other part here, we've been crueler and more negligent to ourselves than to anyone else. One of the things that, that I heard over and over again in people's shares and in the literature is this question, would you talk to anyone else, the way in which you talk to yourself? Would you to their face, call them a blinking idiot?

[00:15:45] Spencer: How many times have I done that to myself? Crueler and more negligent to myself than to anyone else.Again, this is a short paragraph, but it brings up so much and helps me to reflect and realize. yeah, that's true. And that might not have come out in step four, depending how I did step four.

[00:16:07] if I was doing the resentment method, did I resent myself? No. Okay, then no problem. But when I think about how have I harmed myself, how have I been cruel and negligent to myself, oh, wow. Okay. I guess I put my name on the list. How about you?

[00:16:23] Pat: I think this paragraph for me makes me think about taking responsibility for my own reactions,

[00:16:30] Spencer: and when I take responsibility for my own reactions, then it says I have choice. If my reactions are always, well, I couldn't help myself, I had to. I was forced to, somebody else pushed me into it. They did X, Y, or Z. Anytime I'm doing that, I'm handing over my power and choices to another person. As soon as I start taking responsibility for those reactions, then I now have choices about what I'm gonna do. And actually, it's the one time that we have control over the cure and it's when we're working on curing ourselves.

[00:17:07] Pat: It's interesting that you mentioned self language because that's certainly has changed. I used to call myself a dingleberry a lot

[00:17:15] Spencer: Dingleberry. Okay.

[00:17:17] Pat: I don't call myself that very often anymore. I also reacted with a lot of anger. Oh my gosh, a lot of stress. God only knows how many years I took off my life with the amount of stress I was feeling. I'm fortunate it didn't express itself in physical ways, in terms of illness. But self-care was the very bottom of the list. I remember growing up, there was a book called I Am Third. I think I might have mentioned this on another podcast, but man, in retrospect, that's a terrible message.

[00:17:48] Spencer: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:50] Pat: Everyone else is second God's first. Everyone else is second. I am third. Man, that is not, that's not what I learned in Al-Anon, but it was kind of the approach I took to life. If you do it that way, you never get to third base. You're always stuck at second base. So as far as you can go,Those are my thoughts about that. Yeah. And actually I don't know that I ever physically put myself on that list.even now, I have to say in this conversation after all these years, and I've been in Al-Anon since 2005, so 20 years this year, Spencer, in November, that'll be my 20th anniversary of being reborn and getting choked up.

[00:18:33] And all that time, I don't think in all the times I've done the steps I've ever actually put myself on the list, much less at the top of it. I think working the program has acknowledged it.

[00:18:45] Spencer: I'm looking at some of the things I wrote the first time I did step eight. There was a question from Paths to Recovery. Do I recognize when my minding someone else's business may have harmed them or others? I wrote at work, I might deny somebody's abilities, deny them opportunity for growth, deny opportunity to show abilities and knowledge, and I might run somebody down to others. Ooh. At home. kids know how to do things. Imply that they don't, it hurts their feelings.Denying others humanity, dignity, and competence. Condescending buttinski., It did give me an opportunity to look at some of the ways in which I might have harmed other people. Now, there's no specific people's names on these things. On the next page, I had a very short list. Myself, my wife, my two children, and then one labeled coworkers.

[00:19:41] I started to do this three column approach that was recommended. Who did I harm, how did I harm them, and what amends might be appropriate. The second two columns are completely blank. I did the best I could at the time, I guess.

[00:19:54] Pat: Right. I've worked the steps many times and I love doing a fourth step around a specific situation, but it's like any kind of growth, it takes time to build up those rings of growth and those rings of experience and knowledge and understanding. so that each time you are that much bigger, you are that much more mature.

[00:20:17] Spencer: Yep. the first four paragraphs really cover recognizing who we might have harmed and what sorts of harms we might have done, including to ourself. As we move into the fifth paragraph, we get to the second part of the step, which is about becoming willing to make amends.

[00:20:34] Pat: Once our list is made, we face the task of becoming willing to make amends. It's not enough to simply admit to ourselves that we have been at fault. Taking responsibility for our actions means making amends for the harm we have done. We needn't concern ourselves with the form or amends will take at this point that comes in step nine. For now, our only concern is finding the willingness to do what is necessary to right past wrongs. The willingness may not arrive all at once. In fact, some of us find it helpful at first to divide our list into three columns. Those we are willing to make amends, those we may possibly make, and those we cannot imagine ourselves ever making. As time and healing progress, most of us find ourselves gradually becoming willing to make even those inconceivable amends, because we learn that we owe it to ourselves to do so. As with the rest of recovery, becoming willing to make amends is a process that takes time.

[00:21:39] Spencer: Yeah. One of the ones that I faced head on at this point was making amends to my alcoholic wife, who was still actively drinking. At that time, that put her in the hell no column. I don't know that that's the never column, but it's definitely the not now column. What I like about this, and I will go back for a moment to step four. When I, started doing it with the blueprint. The first question in the blueprint book asks about how was I dishonest as a child? If I remember correctly.

[00:22:17] Pat: I had to write some stuff down. And then my mind immediately went to, am I gonna have to make amends for this? I talked to my sponsor and he said, right now you're just making a list. We will worry about that when we get to step eight or nine, but right now, don't go there. Because if you go there, it will make it a lot harder to do your inventory. I think even here where it says, we needn't concern ourselves with the form our amends will take at this point that comes in step nine. That makes me wonder about this table that I started to make when I was doing step eight in 2003 or oh four, what form might amends take? it's looking ahead already. Now, I think I made that when I was basically at the end of studying step eight at least.and the fact that I didn't write it down suggests that I wasn't ready to think about that for some people at least. It was not just willingness to make amends, but what form, you know, step nine says, made direct amends. And I wasn't willing, ready to make direct amends to my wife. But I could be willing to make changes to my behavior. To not make those harms or at least reduce those harms in the future. Again, looking forward to step nine, but to me that's one of the really important parts of making amends. It's not just an apology. I have to change something, usually, in order to not do the harm again. I have been willing to change my behavior before I was willing to directly admit my fault.

[00:24:06] Spencer: As time and healing progress, I did find myself becoming willing to make more amends, to make more direct amends, to make more living amends. 'cause I owe it to myself to do so. One of the things that happened during the drinking years was I built a wall, an emotional wall between me and her. And that harmed both of us. First I had to recognize that I had done that, and then I had to gradually, as it says here, take it down. ‘Cause I had gotten hurt and I didn't want to get hurt again. And even though I knew that things had changed, that our relationship was healing, that fear of touching the hot stove was still there. The willingness is a process that takes time and the actual amends is a process that takes time. Yeah, that's what I've got. A lot in that paragraph.

[00:24:58] Pat: Yeah. Yeah. I find it interesting because by putting willingness into the step. It does a very important thing. It slows us down. 'cause the temptation, I think, is very human and always, let's see, what are the three As? Awareness, acceptance, and then action.

[00:25:20] Spencer: Yeah.

[00:25:20] Pat: This takes awareness and acceptance and puts it in step eight. It puts action in step nine. I love the series awareness, acceptance, action. Until I accept, truly accept my behavior, my past behavior, my past choices, the past harms I have caused, I cannot truly make amends to anyone else. So it's very intentional that you have an action in this step. I think. Making that list. But then it slows you down. You gotta look at this willingness issue before you're allowed to even move into step nine.

[00:26:05] I would guess there are many sponsor sponsee relationships out there where the sponsor has pulled the sponsee back, Nope, we're still on step eight. Nope. Don't worry about step nine. We're still on step eight. I think a lot of that process and what you were saying, Spencer reflects it, is it's looking at how we feel about those we are going to make amends to, it's about addressing the feelings we have.

[00:26:33] For me, when I look at the people that I needed most to make amends towards, they were people that I was looking at in a very one dimensional way, a me versus them kind of antagonistic way. and I needed to change the way I looked at them. I need to look at them as whole individuals before I could truly make effective, honest amends to them.

[00:27:05] Pat: To me, the willingness portion of this is about seeing those we're making amends to in a more complete and whole light. And then an aside about making amends themselves, as I feel like in making amends to people. In particular, I think of my brother-in-law that was just a little, that was a snot. I was just a snobby jerk to the guy, the poor fellow.I just didn't give him the time of day and thought he was less than, I'm embarrassed to say it, but in making living amends to him, I ended up taking those habits of treating him kindness and gentleness and respect, and that gave me practice and it created a habit that then got extended to all kinds of people in my life.

[00:27:54] Not that I was as bad a snot to others as I was to him, but you get the idea.

[00:28:02] Spencer: Yeah, absolutely. again, I'm looking back at my notebook here. There was a question in the Paths to Recovery book, how patient am I in allowing myself to grow into the willingness for making difficult amends? And I wrote, I think I can wait for the willingness to come. The question is, am I too willing to wait? It's always balancing, isn't it?

[00:28:22] Last paragraph of this section.

[00:28:25] In considering the eighth step, it is important to remember that until we can take this step in a spirit of self-love and healing, we may not be ready for it. Step eight, like the other steps, is a step toward healing. It is not about humiliating ourselves or making others feel better at our expense. It is about owning up to what we have done and becoming willing to free ourselves from the guilt and shame our actions have caused us.

[00:28:52] I think that's important.

[00:28:53] Pat: Yeah. Very much like step four. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:28:57] Spencer: It is not a kick yourself in the butt step,

[00:29:00] Pat: Right.

[00:29:01] Spencer: It's easy to read those words. I think it's harder for me at least, to act on them, to not feel humiliated, to not feel less than, to not feel broken. and certainly the practice of having done step four and step five moved me in that direction. And six and seven. Those center four steps are about starting to accept myself as I am warts and all, as they might say. owning up to what we have done and become willing. I love this. Becoming willing to free ourselves from the guilt and shame our actions have caused us.

[00:29:46] I have a story, this was a step 10 story, but it works here too.I was in a meeting at work, I was becoming annoyed, shall we say. I was becoming annoyed at one of the other people in the meeting who kept bringing up something that I didn't think was something we needed to talk about.

[00:30:05] And I was very short with him to the point where, and I don't remember the exact words I used, but he said, that's it. I'm outta here. He picked up his stuff, left the meeting, actually went home for the day. At the moment I realized, that wasn't so good, was it? and that evening I got an email from my boss who said, we need to talk about this, be in my office at nine o'clock in the morning. So I knew that some amends were needed, and I wanted to, if possible, to get them done before I went to talk to my boss. so I came in early, and luckily the other guy was also an early arriver. And I said to him, I wanna apologize for the way in which I spoke to you yesterday. It was inappropriate and unneeded. And he said, my actions weren't so good either. Something like that. I don't remember again, the exact words,And then. That was it between us. Like we had made the amends that needed to be made. We had each owned up to what we had done. And that freed me from the guilt and shame that I had been carrying about what I did. And then I was able to go to my boss and say, we're good.we worked it out.so yes, that actually is what can happen when I, let me say correctly, practice step eight and then nine. You have thoughts on this paragraph?

[00:31:38] Pat: Guilt and shame. They are big red hot button topics andthey go into my closet with all my skeletons. That's what skeletons are. They're guilt and shame about the past. Having gone through step four with a sponsor, that was with a single person that I knew would accept me, regardless of what I told them, and often could tell me that I was not alone. I was not. I just somehow grew up always thinking that if I did something wrong, I was the only person that had ever done that wrong. I was the only person that was that bad. So to do it with my sponsor, who I could trust and know they weren't gonna walk away, they weren't gonna beat me up for what I told them, was incredibly freeing. And I found that when I let those skeletons out the closet, they went from 10 feet tall to 10 inches tall or even smaller.

[00:32:44] So I think the challenge with step eight and nine. And what really makes me wanna put the brakes on the willingness issue, is I'm taking my guilt and shame out into the whole world and there's no guarantee. Why wouldn't we be frightful? Why wouldn't we be unwilling or worry about doing amends when we're taking this out to people who are not in our program, who are not accepting and loving. Those brakes come on real hard, real fast because I've been hiding that guilt and shame from everybody. And to do it and risk rejection, risk somebody saying, yeah, you were a jerk to me, is, wow. That's a very, you can tell I'm getting emotional just thinking about it. That's a very intense thing to do and you have to have a lot of self-love to be able to have the perspective to say that once I acknowledge this behavior, that I'm no longer proud of and I'm no longer willing to hide from, I will be free. It takes a lot of time and a lot of work and a lot of thought work to get to that place. I think.

[00:34:04] Spencer: Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:34:07] Pat: That ended up being kind of intense.

[00:34:09] Spencer: Yeah.it's an intense step. It really is.

[00:34:13] Pat: The program's kind of intense.

[00:34:15] Spencer: yeah. Okay, we'll take, a little break to talk about some music and then we'll continue with our lives in recovery, where we talk about how recovery is working in our daily lives.

Song 1

[00:34:26] Spencer: Pat, tell us about the first song you chose.

[00:34:29] Pat: the first song I chose is pretty intense. You can listen to it on the website at recovery show slash 4 3 2. it's by Eminem. he has his own video that goes with it. Cleaning out my closet, and it's just such a complicated song. he is not a hundred percent all the way to, I don't know what he's doing, but for me it's all about what it says to me.

[00:34:52] It seems like in cleaning out his closet, he is talking about his mother. He's apologizing for making his mother cry, but it's clear that his mother was also an addict to pills. and it seems like it's this cleaning out his closet is similar to this process of working through the steps. Doing an inventory and like step eight, also putting himself on the top of the list of people who he has harmed, trying to set healthier boundaries. Even when someone else has harmed us, acknowledging the times we have harmed others, including the addicts in our lives. there's just a lot to the song. I really liked it.

Our Lives in Recovery

[00:35:37] Spencer: In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery. How have we experienced recovery recently?

[00:35:45] Couple weeks ago, I spent a weekend locked in a church with only about 20 teenagers and some other adults also. it was a lot of fun. I actually get energy from them. I get joy. This was the first one since the pandemic. So it had been a while. Almost none of the youth who were there had ever experienced one of these before. This was not just, kids from my church, but from several other churches in Michigan and one in Indiana and one in Ohio, coming together for the weekend.

[00:36:21] A few days later, I got an email from a friend who said his son had raised some concerns about what was going on, and he wanted to talk to me about them. He said, I'd rather do this in person. I don't wanna do this by email or over the phone. I was like, okay. So we set up a time to, to meet in a coffee shop on a Saturday morning.

[00:36:42] I have to admit that I was having some trepidation about what he might say. did something happen that I wasn't aware of? It turned out no, that wasn't the case. there's my future catastrophizing in action already.We had a really good conversation, but I think for me, the thing that I see as having really learned in recovery, was sitting there and really listening to what he had to say. Not trying to justify, argue, defend, or explain. Trying to understand what his concerns were. and that is not something that I would have been able to do without all of the practice that I get sitting in meetings where there's no crosstalk or being a sponsor. Then I used some of those sponsor tools. I reflected back to him what I had heard him say. We had some conversation about things we actually disagree on, and left with me saying, I can take, these concerns to the other people involved and we'll see if we need to make some changes in response.

[00:37:54] We also had some more lighthearted conversation about the fact that his son is wedded to his phone. And in fact, he said he feels that his son only experiences his life through his phone.and we both agreed that was probably not a good thing. And that, we needed to also pay attention to that for ourselves. But it was not anything like what I had feared. It was good.

[00:38:19] And again, just practicing these principles that I've learned over the years, can make what could have been an unpleasant interaction, pleasant for me. And I think for him too.

[00:38:33] I guess the other thing that occurred recently, I wanna talk about the book, how Al-Anon works. In one of my meetings, actually both of my meetings now are doing readings from that book and then sharing our reactions, responses, whatever to, to the reading.In one meeting, we are reading the stories in the back of the book. In that meeting, traditionally, we would do a first step meeting when we get a new person coming in and we would go back to page 45 of how Al-Anon works and read through step one and then, share our experiences.

[00:39:10] But all of the stories in the back of the book pretty much are in one way or another, newcomer friendly.

[00:39:17] Pat: Nice.

[00:39:18] Spencer: So, we don't really have to change what we're doing when there's a newcomer. The stories cover lots of different people's experiences of alcoholism and entry into the program andwhat they got from it. I don't think there's been a single one that I cannot find points of identification in. Some more strongly than others.

[00:39:38] My other meeting we're also reading how Al-Anon works. But we started at the beginning, the first few chapters really take me back and help me to see how far I have come since I first came into Al-Anon and I was first reading those chapters, you know.

[00:39:57] Pat: Uh.

[00:39:58] Spencer: It's been fun and we'll see how it goes as we move through the chapters. Sometimes we can't get through a whole chapter in one meeting because some of the chapters are pretty long.

[00:40:07] We've got some people who've been in program for 20 years or more. We've got some people who are more recent or who have bought the book more recently. And we're discovering some of the differences between the different editions of the book. One person's like.my book's got another paragraph at the end of this section that you guys didn't read. And that led us into this conversation. Well, this book has three whole new sections that your book doesn't. I put the Kindle version up on the screen so we could all read from the same version at that point.

[00:40:37] Pat: The other thing I wanna say, and I'm gonna keep on saying this, about my life in recovery in the near future, which is that my wife and I are going to the AA International Convention in Vancouver at the beginning of July. I just got an email from Al-Anon saying, Hey, do you wanna sign up to be a speaker, lead a panel, lead a workshop, something? And I was like, yes. So I, they had a form to fill out, and we'll see if what comes of that.I might end up being up in front of the room or I might end up just being in the room. We'll see.

[00:41:10] Spencer: I do wanna say to anybody who's listening, if you're planning to be there, send me an email. the feedback at the recovery show works well to get to me and, let's figure out, how we can meet up while we're there. And that's what I've got.

[00:41:24] Pat: Okay. I am just coming back into in-person meetings,and enjoying them. It's a little challenging because some of my shifts are 12 hour shifts. Some of them are eight hour shifts. that makes me gone in the evening. My spouse is semi-retired. I'm not retired yet. I work full time. so he really values his time with me. Before Covid I stopped going to an evening meeting, which was my initial home group. And then I started going to a morning meeting. I have to admit, I got very spoiled. And because of the whole work thing, I wasn't going on weekend meetings either. Well, that doesn't leave a lot. It leaves an occasional weekday meeting. 'cause I have some weekdays off from time to time. But I was going to those and Covid came along and I gotta admit, I just stopped, relied on the podcast, a great deal for my contact.

[00:42:23] An occasional Zoom meeting. Relied on my sponsor. and I just recognized recently, I just need to put more time into it. So that's what I've been doing. I've been making it to some local meetings. I've found a couple that I really enjoy. and it's just been nice to be back in an in-person community again.

[00:42:45] I never really clicked with the online meetings. They never really worked for me. It's obvious if I have the opportunity to multitask or try to do something else instead I tend to go there. So I'm really enjoying this getting back into real meetings. And that segues also was something else that happened, which was we were gonna do this podcast and I could not find my, how Al-Anon works.

[00:43:12] So I've had sponsors and sponsees, so that's another point of contact through Covid, a sponsor and a sponsee and run into people from time to time. Had given away my How Al-Anon Works book. So I was looking around and in my city, lots of the meetings are still online, not in person.

[00:43:32] The one I could find was the all men's meeting. So I got up there and went to the all men's meeting and I know Al-Anon proper says we're not supposed to be giving 'em exclusive names. know, so I got there early, got in, bought my book. The guy said, Nope, we're all men's. And he said, we'd have to talk about it and we're gonna let you be in. I'm like, oh, okay. If that's not cool with you guys fine. I go out to my car and my husband, who's out of town calls me and so we started having this pretty intense conversation about something else that happened where he is. And one of the guys comes out from the meeting and says, oh, we talked about it. You can join us. So I got this wonderful meeting. It was fascinating to go in and see, what is an all mens meeting? they were lovely. It was Al-Anon. It was great. It was about step four. It was interesting to see how that conversation went. But you know, a step four conversation can go just about anywhere. That was my meeting for the week. I really enjoyed that.

[00:44:35] Another related note is that my, sponsor of, well, she's the only sponsor I've ever had, is suffering from Alzheimer's.

[00:44:46] Spencer: Oh.

[00:44:47] And somebody asked me. At my workplace, I get to interact with lots of different people. And one person had a whole purse full of Al-Anon literature, so I felt pretty much at liberty to ask her about it. So I did. And she asked me about whether I had a sponsor. I'm not sure why. Just out of the, you know, and I said, I actually don't, I don't have a sponsor anymore. And I think I have to grieve that. Yeah.

[00:45:18] Pat: My sponsor isn't able to, I go visit her, but I, she can't, she doesn't do readings anymore.

[00:45:28] I often thought that as she aged, it would be a comfort that I could read Alanon literature to her. And it's not something anymore. She enjoys my visits, which is nice. but I realized I don't have a sponsor. And that's an interesting place to be. So when I was at this men's group and they said, do you have a sponsor?

[00:45:45] Spencer: I wrote No Rate. that's sad. It

[00:45:51] Pat: it is so I'm dealing with the grieving. and then on an unrelated note, we've been talking about retirement. It's a few years away from me, but I've been wondering what the heck am I gonna do in retirement?

[00:46:04] I know I need to do for me, I need to do some kind of volunteer work. And I was at work and heard a presentation about an incredibly valuable project that the person doing it only has the bandwidth to do it in a very small portion of the institution. And I thought, oh, that fits. I cannot tell you, Spencer, how comforting it was to feel that I had a project that I could do in retirement that uses all of my skills and would help other people because the person running this program is just squeezing it in, here and there. Has no designated time, no administrative support. And I thought, I have all the skills for this and could expand it to go across the whole institution and not just be limited to one area.

[00:47:01] The comfort that came with that was just amazing. I haven't told the person yet, 'cause I'm still four years from retirement. but you know how that is, your hair starts turning gray and how many wrinkles you have on your face. People start asking you how long before you retire.

[00:47:16] Spencer: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:17] Pat: anyway, that's, that is I think my week in recovery.

[00:47:21] Spencer: All right, thank you.Looking forward, we are moving forward on, our series of episodes on the 12 steps. We still have steps nine through 12 to cover. We welcome your thoughts, your input, join our conversation here. Leave us a voicemail or send us an email with your feedback, your questions, your experience, strength, and hope about, step eight or steps nine, et cetera.

[00:47:51] Some things to think about. If you're thinking about step nine. How do you separate step eight from step nine? We talked about that a little bit and we also were, in places I think not quite able to enforce that separation in our conversation.

[00:48:05] how have you made direct amends? If you have. Did you ever experience someone who wasn't interested or received them in a difficult way for you? Have you ever received amends? What did that mean for you? How did you feel about it? What worked or did not work for you in the way it was given to you? Those are all things to think about. I'm gonna have to think about those too.

[00:48:26] Pat, how can people send us feedback? How can people contribute to our conversation?

[00:48:33] Pat: You can send a voice memo or email to feedback at the recovery show, or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 7 3 4 7 0 7 8 7 9 5 to repeat 7 3 4 7 0 7. 8, 7, 9, 5. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer. We'd love to hear from you.

[00:49:01] Share your experience, strength, and hope, or your questions about today's topic of step eight or any of our upcoming topics, including steps nine through 12. And if you'd have a topic you'd like us to talk about, please let us know. I think there was a really excellent episode recently that was from someone calling in saying they were curious about something.

[00:49:22] If you would like advance notice for some of our topics that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for mailing list by sending in an email to feedback at the recovery show. Put email in the subject line to make it easier to spot. Spencer, where can our listeners find out more about the recovery show?

[00:49:41] Spencer: that would be our website, the Recovery Show, where we have all the information about the show, mostly notes for each episode, which would include links to the books that we mentioned, which I guess is just How Al-Anon Works, this week, videos for the music that Pat chose. And also on the website there's some links to other recovery, podcasts and websites, not in any sense of the word, complete or even exhaustive.

Song 2

[00:50:09] Pat: we'll take a short break before diving into the mailbag. And the second musical selection, again, available on the website is Apology Song by the Decembrists. I just can't seem to resist putting in a song that makes me laugh whenever I co-host. This is about the songwriter's friend's bike, that he's left to look after the bike, and he leaves it unlocked and it gets stolen.

[00:50:32] I think there's just so many other actions where we make poor choices or it's a poorly thought out action, that results in harm to another. but it is a funny song and it's very catchy.

[00:50:45] Spencer: it is. I'm really sorry, Steven. But your bicycle's been stolen. I was watching it for you til you came back in the fall. I guess. I didn't do such a good job after all. I was feeling really sorry, Steven, and I spent all morning grieving. That's the first verse. and it just goes on.

[00:51:03] I meant her no harm when I left her unlocked outside the Orange Street Food Farm. I was just running in. Didn't think I'd be that long. Justify,arguing and explain there, right? Defend. Yeah. It's a great song. I know I've used it before. I don't remember what episode. Probably one about either step eight, step nine or step 10, one of those, but always bears repeating.

Listener Feedback

[00:51:34] Spencer: And now it's time to hear from you.

[00:51:37] Joanne writes an alapal, I love that, Alapal. An alapal sent me the link for your site and I just listened to your podcast number 411, which was titled Growth and Challenges in Al-Anon Service with Eric as my guest.

[00:51:54] As of January this year, I'm the new area Alateen coordinator and what a learning curve. This Saturday will be 33 years in the program and the first time in an area position.

[00:52:06] Lots of challenges in services in my area, and I'm passionate about Alateen and Al-Anon, as well as having four adult kids who have all struggled in their own way, and 12 grandkids ranging from one to 25. All again, having had their struggles. And there has been such a struggle in between a new career, a new position in the program, family challenges, and a new attitude about where I fit in everything. I'm feeling overwhelmed and perhaps a bit alone. Doreen E suggested that perhaps Eric May be a person to connect with regards to Alateen and trying to get it active in the Maritimes, and I may do so. I have a lot of reading to do.

[00:52:46] I particularly like what you shared about the program and having a voice. After a short time in the program, I wasn't feeling good about it. Dominance, bullying, and a few things you mentioned. I ended up with the privilege of being a newcomer in a focus group with many longtime members, and I found a voice when I see the traditions not being adhered to. Sometimes with my knees shaking and my voice cracking, I do it. For Al-Anon. There are some challenges happening now in my group, and I really got so much from listening to your podcast. I plan to come back again. Thank you for sharing your experience, strength, time, and the music.

[00:53:22] Take care. Joanne.

[00:53:24] Thanks for writing, Joanne. I forwarded your email to Eric and I'm hopeful that he will be able to, provide some experience, strength and hope and support for you in your new position. I know he had a lot of things to say about what he had done in his public outreach position about starting or enhancing Alateen in his area. So I think he's got some real experience there for you.

[00:53:50] Thank you for taking on that Alateen position. I know Alateen is struggling in my area. There are only a few districts that even have Alateen meetings.

[00:54:02] Pete writes,

[00:54:02] hello Spencer. There's been a lot of upheaval and uncertainty in this country in the last decade, and it seems to have intensified in the last few months. I've found it to be incredibly upsetting and I've had a hard time focusing and turning it over to my higher power.

[00:54:17] The crux is that much of it is political and we don't talk about politics in program. I was wondering how folks worked through and talked about this within the confines of the traditions. Any help would be much appreciated.

[00:54:29] Thanks, Pete. that's a really good question, Pete.

[00:54:32] I've heard people say things like, there's a lot of conflict happening in our country and our politics right now, and I'm having trouble dealing with it emotionally, spiritually. There've been so many changes happening recently, and I just have a hard time dealing with that rapid pace of change. Those are things that to my mind, don't point at one politic or another, but at the impact of what is happening on myself. I recently listened to an episode of the podcast Fragmented to Whole, where the host, Barb, talked about how she just doesn't pay any attention to the news, and that is what she needs for her own peace and serenity. Obviously, that doesn't work for all of us. Some of us, like me, feel like we have to maintain at least some minimal connection to what's going on. But I have set some boundaries on how much and how I consume news. Even when I might be listening to things that I agree with, it can still cause some emotional turmoil in me, some stress, and I just don't need that. I don't need that stress. So finding the right balance for yourself can be hard. It takes probably some experimentation.

[00:56:02] But I think things that you can, to my mind, bring up within the constraints of the traditions is, what's happening in the world, in our country, right now is having a deep impact on me. And I'm having trouble maintaining my serenity, maintaining my peace. Maintaining my stability, mental and spiritual stability. Those are things that I think are legitimate program topics. If you want to get into specifics, I would say yeah, don't do it in a meeting. Find one or more, as Joanne called them, alapals, friends in program and have that conversation outside the confines of the meeting.

[00:56:44] I haven't really had the courage to have conversation with somebody who just fundamentally disagrees with me. But, I know people who do and who find it enlightening and helpful. And not infrequently, find common agreement on values and principles, even when there is significant disagreement on details and outcomes. There's just some thoughts there and you can hear I'm sort of struggling with it myself.

[00:57:11] So thanks for writing, Pete.

[00:57:13] Patrick wrote to say he is also planning to attend the AA International Convention in Vancouver this July 3rd to fifth. He is also booked on the same Alaskan cruise that my wife and I are booked for. There's a group of in recovery people who will be dining and so on together on the cruise. So that should have some great time for recovery conversations, both at the convention and on the cruise.

[00:57:38] And he has a topic idea, a somewhat provocative one. Is Al-Anon really for men. I am not sure what he thinks there. I can have some ideas. He says, let's talk about it while we're cruising informally, you know. I'm gonna bring along my recorder. So we might actually have a conversation for the podcast. Who knows? But what do you think about this question?

[00:58:02] I got a review on Apple Podcasts titled, Eternally Grateful for this Pod. From ralorlob is the screen name. I'm so grateful to Spencer and all his guests for the time spent on this podcast. It has kept me company and provided me with comfort at some of the lowest points in my life. The work you do really matters. Thank you, from the UK.

[00:58:23] Well, thank you for that review and if you wanna leave a review on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you listen to the podcast on, please do. Podcast reviews and ratings provide some evidence for people who are considering listening to the podcast as to the value that you get from it. So thanks again.

[00:58:47] And that's it for this week.

Thanks to Pat

[00:58:49] Spencer: Pat, I want to thank you for joining me today for a conversation about step eight, a little bit of a deep dive, I think into step eight.

[00:58:59] Pat: I wanna thank you, Spencer, because it's always a delight working with you. I always go places my brain would not go otherwise, like any other good Al-Anon conversation. And, the service you have provided for our community is immeasurable. I have to say for anyone out there listening, think about co-hosting with Spencer, he makes it super easy. He's able to edit out any bloops you have, and it's really an enjoyable experience. You don't have to stress about it. It's not live.

[00:59:31] Spencer: It is not live. Yes, and I do edit it.

Song 3

[00:59:35] Pat: Our last song selection is in between by Linkin Park, which you can also listen to at the recovery show slash 4 3 2. gosh, this is a beautiful song. It's so pretty. I got the lyrics. Let me apologize to begin with. Let me apologize for what I'm about to say, but trying to be genuine was harder than it seemed, and somehow I got caught up in, in between. Let me apologize to begin with. Let me apologize for what I'm about to say. But trying to be someone else was harder than it seemed, and somehow I got caught up in between, between my pride and my promise. Between my lies and how the truth gets in the way, and things I wanna say to you get lost before they come. The only thing that's worse than one is none.

[01:00:30] Oh, I just love that song. I cry easily, by the way. , I think it speaks to the fact that these are not easy steps that we take. they take a lot of time and a lot of introspection, and it's painful to admit when you've been wrong. It's really painful to admit that we're not the people we've wanted to be or we thought we were. And then taking that to another person. Wow, what a tough spot. So I just love this song.

Closing

[01:01:06] Spencer: Thank you for listening and please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you're facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding, love and peace growing you one day at a time.