Intro

[00:00:01] Spencer: Do you have a friend or relation who's addicted to marijuana? Have you heard of Mar-Anon? Let's find out more.

[00:00:07] Welcome to episode 430 of The Recovery Show. This episode is brought to you by Liz, Androna, Lizbeth, and Sue. They use the donation button on our website. Liz, Androna, Lizbeth, and Sue for your generous contributions. This episode is for you.

[00:00:24] We are friends of family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:42] Bart B: Before we begin, we'd like to state that in this show, we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program. During this show, we will share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you will find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:01:03] Spencer: My name is Spencer. I am your host today and joining me today is Bart. Welcome to The Recovery Show, Bart.

[00:01:09] Bart B: Thank you, Spencer. Glad to be here.

[00:01:11] Spencer: You're here to talk to us about The Mar a non program.

Reading

[00:01:15]

[00:01:15] Spencer: You brought a reading from The Language of Letting Go.

[00:01:19] Bart B: Yeah, I have the language of letting go by Melanie Beatty. The one I picked out was, it's called nurturing ourselves from December 17. Page 359 says,

[00:01:31] Many of us have been so deprived of nurturing that we think it's silly or self indulgent. Nurturing is neither silly nor self indulgent. It's how we show our love for ourselves. That's what we're striving for in recovery. A loving relationship with ourselves that works so we can have loving relationships with others that work. When we hurt, we ask ourselves what we need to help us feel better. When we feel alone, we reach out to someone safe. Without feeling that we are a burden, we allow that person to be there for us. We rest when we're tired, eat when we're hungry, have fun or relax when our spirits need a lift. Nurturing means giving ourselves gifts, a trip to the beauty salon or barbershop, a massage, a book, a new jacket or a new suit or dress. It means a long hot bath to forget about our problems and the world for a few moments when that would feel good. We learned to be gentle with ourselves and to open up to the nurturing that others have to offer us.

[00:02:40] As part of nurturing ourselves, we allow ourselves to give and receive positive touch. Touch that feels appropriate to us, touch that is safe. We reject touch that doesn't feel good or safe and is not positive. We learn to give ourselves what we need in a gentle, loving, compassionate way. We do this with the understanding it will not make us lazy, spoiled, self centered, or narcissistic. Nurtured people are effective in their work and in their relationships.

[00:03:14] We will learn to feel loved by ourselves so much that we can truly love others and let them love us. Today, I will nurture myself. I will also be open to the nurturing that I can give to others and receive from them.

[00:03:32] Spencer: Thank you.

Our conversation about Mar-Anon

[00:03:33] Spencer: As an introduction to Mar-Anon, could you say a little bit about what brought you, to this program of recovery?

[00:03:42] Bart B: Yes, about 20 years ago, my son was actually having problems with alcohol in college and he had an episode where the police had to come and it was a big, ugly scene. He had a contusion because he fell down and ended up in the emergency room with a swelling in his brain. So we rushed down to college. When we met with a therapist about what had happened, they suggested that we go to Al-Anon. So about 20 years ago, we went to our first Al-Anon meeting, my wife and I. There was about four people there, kind of a dark room, and long story short, after that meeting, my wife and I looked at each other on the way to our car in the parking lot and just said, I guess, Al-Anon isn't for us. About five years later, we went to another meeting, only parents. About 50 people. It was the opposite situation, well lit room. And that's when it really connected with both of us. In fact, when I started to share, I started crying like a baby.

[00:04:46] Because I had felt all this shame and guilt and all these feelings I've been stuffing down for years come out. So that was my first basically successful, Al-Anon meeting. Then, many years later, actually in 2020, I was Googling about marijuana because both my sons became addicted to marijuana. It's called cannabis use disorder. My youngest son especially was having cannabis induced psychosis, many episodes of, cannabis induced psychosis. And sadly, he ended up dying by suicide in 2018. He was 29 years old. The last articulate thing he said to me was cannabis has ruined my life. He thought it was his medicine and he took more and more and higher and higher THCcannabis or marijuana.

[00:05:35] In 2020, while I was doing more research about it on the internet, I found Mar-Anon. I emailed Mar-Anon and I asked about the meetings. It was during COVID and the one person keeping the website going and pretty much the whole thing going, her name is Brooke.

[00:05:51] She said, there's no meetings. because of, COVID and I said, can I start zoom meetings? So I started these zoom meetings and the thing just basically took off. And now we have 2300 members, lots of meetings every week and that type of thing.

[00:06:07] Spencer: Wow. That's pretty astounding. Do you know how big the program was before the shutdown?

[00:06:15] Bart B: Yeah. So before the zoom meeting started in October of 2020, I think there were about 150 people that were connected through an email chain. I think a couple of Facebook groups and it was about 150.like I say, now we have like over 2, 300 and we've got about 20 new members a week. And of course, hardly anyone's ever heard of Mar-Anon.

[00:06:37] Spencer: Right. all the meetings are currently online?

[00:06:41] Bart B: Almost, yeah, every meeting is almost on zoom. We have two meetings that are in person, one in Newport beach and one in Albany, right next to Berkeley, California, and the San Francisco Bay area.

[00:06:54] Spencer: I had a question. Back a little while. You talked about your two first Al-Anon meeting experiences and how, one of them just didn't work for you at all. And then the later one you really connected with. You know, when we get newcomers in a meeting, we always try to remember to tell them, check out different meetings. My experience is I've been to meetings that I really connect with and I've been to meetings that frankly, in some case, turned me off.

[00:07:26] Luckily, I guess for me, the first meeting I went to was one I really connected with well, but then, people suggested other meetings. And when I found myself in a position where I needed more recovery than once a week, I checked out some of them and there were a couple that, And maybe it was just what happened that day, or maybe that was something about that meeting in general that I just never went back to because something happened that, that turned me away or that I just didn't connect with.

[00:07:56] And so I think that's really important to emphasize to people when they're new in a program is if you don't like this meeting, but you recognize that you want help. There are other meetings and you may do better with one of the other meetings.

[00:08:11] Bart B: I totally agree.

[00:08:13] Spencer: When I think back to my first Al-Anon meeting, I have no idea what anybody said in that meeting. I can't remember a single thing that was said, but I do remember feeling welcomed, and feeling like I wasn't alone.

[00:08:25] Bart B: Oh, yeah, I totally agree. I said the second meeting when I started just crying like a baby, once I started sharing at first, I'd say the first 15 seconds, I felt embarrassed. But then it was amazing. I felt the love of,all these people in the room. It really was powerful. And I felt the love and support.

[00:08:45] And I felt really great. I felt like a,a thousand pound pack had been taken off my back.

[00:08:51] Spencer: So let's talk about the Mar-Anon program because I am totally not familiar with it. I probably could have done some Googling ahead of time. It might have been helpful. You know, I'm probably coming into this like just about anybody who's listening to the podcast. Like I've never heard of this. I don't know what it's about. Is it a 12 step program?

[00:09:09] Bart B: Yes, it's based on Al-Anon.

[00:09:13] When we used to go to the Al-Anon meetings before we found Mar-Anon, what would happen is whenever they would say alcohol, I would just switch in my head to marijuana.

[00:09:24] Spencer:

[00:09:25] We admitted we were powerless over marijuana and that our lives have become unmanageable.

[00:09:30] Bart B: Exactly. Basically, it's the same as Al-Anon. Because we're so new, we don't have our own literature. We, use, Al-Anon literature, and same thing, when we get to the word alcohol, we just,substitute marijuana, and then, of course, we get the word alcoholic, we'll say loved one, that type of thing. We also, use the Language of Letting Go by Melody Beatty, which is, of course, the reading I just read.Because we're so new, we, haven't developed our literature yet, but we are in the process. And on our website, there's a letter from someone who has cannabis use disorder. There's a letter from someone who has, cannabis induced psychosis, or at least has had episodes of that. And there's a letter from someone who has, or had CHS, which stands for long term cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, where they just keep vomiting over and over.

[00:10:22] I can talk more about that, but they're three letters.

[00:10:27] Spencer: Okay. So the meeting's structured similarly to an Al-Anon meeting?

[00:10:34] One of the things in Al-Anon, we're encouraged to learn about alcoholism. I imagine then in Mar-Anon, you're encouraged to learn about, cannabis use disorder. I guess in Al-Anon, we could say alcohol use disorder,

[00:10:47] Bart B: Yes,

[00:10:48] Spencer: to bring it up to current terminology.

[00:10:51] Bart B: Exactly. And then also it's interesting because we, as a group decided to in the do's and don'ts, one of the do's at the end of the meeting that we talked about is do go to open marijuana anonymous meetings and read their literature.

[00:11:08] Spencer: Okay. I guess I've heard of, what do you call it? MA, like AA.

[00:11:12] Bart B: Yeah, they havebout 500 meetings a week, a lot of them are on Zoom, and a lot of them are open, just like an open AA meeting.

[00:11:19] Spencer: I see.

[00:11:20] Bart B: So the person, of course, who has cannabis use disorder, when they're ready for recovery, Marijuana Anonymous is where they would go. And then, for the loved ones, there's Mar-Anon.

[00:11:34] Spencer: So what do you find different in Mar-Anon?

[00:11:38] Bart B: That's a really good question, yeah. So my Al-Anon sponsor said to me, when I told him that, I was going to do these meetings through Mar-Anon, and he said, just do it through Al-Anon. And I said, I understand his point, and actually, I also go to Al-Anon. I go to an in person meeting, and I know a lot of people in Mar-Anon also go to Al-Anon.

[00:12:01] What I did say to him, as I said, the thing about the difference between marijuana addiction and alcohol addiction is that so many people say it's just weed, it's just pot. They say it's not addictive, grows out of the ground, etc. And that person does not feel supported. I'd say most people in Al-Anon wouldn't say that, there are still people who do say, Oh, alcohol's worse.

[00:12:29] Alcohol can be worse for some people. But marijuana can be worse for other people. It's still an addiction. You can go psychotic, and all these other, issues, what we were talking about, that you can have when you're basically addicted to cannabis.

[00:12:44] Spencer: I guess that makes sense. Those of us who are in Al-Anon because of a problem with alcoholism in a relative or friend, as our tradition puts it, we can find common experience and common ground with other members. And say, Hey, my loved one, does this, has these symptoms and somebody else can say, So does mine.

[00:13:10] This is my understanding, especially, when we're new, don't really understand what's going on. but if I was to come into an Al-Anon meeting and say,my loved one is smoking too much pot and is like having psychotic breaks, there might be somebody, if it's a big meeting, who could relate to that and could share their own experience with it, but less likely than if I came to a Mar-Anon meeting, I would imagine.

[00:13:37] Bart B: No question, in fact, a lot of newcomers will say something like, Finally, I found a group of people who understand, and don't say, it's just pot, or it's just weed.

[00:13:48] Spencer: Yeah.

[00:13:49] Bart B: So they feel supported.

[00:13:52] Spencer: If somebody wants to find a meeting, they would go to the Mar-Anon website.

[00:13:58] Bart B: Yeah, go to our website. It's M A R hyphen A N O N dot com. And then you go, the meetings section, that's where you're going to find the links to our Zoom meetings and the information about our two in person meetings.

[00:14:13] Spencer: I probably have said this before on the podcast, but one of the things I'm really grateful for that came out of the pandemic and there are only a few, is the growth of technologies for meeting online. The prime example being, of course, Zoom. People are more familiar with them, they're more comfortable using them. I look at you, you look at me, you know, we're in an older generation. Which is often viewed as being not technologically savvy.there are people in my meetings that meet online that are significantly older than me and they figured it out.

[00:14:50] Bart B: Right.

[00:14:51] Spencer: Now, especially when, for whatever reason, we find it difficult to travel to a meeting. Whether it's because the meeting is in California and I'm not. Or , just because of weather or other issues that are going on.

[00:15:08] I have a friend who's got some painful thing going on with his knee, and he can still come to a meeting. Because he can do it by Zoom.

[00:15:16] Bart B: Exactly. I totally agree. We have people that have been to our meetings from Australia. Europe, Canada, Mexico, and of course, throughout the United States since 2020.

[00:15:27] Spencer: So that's five years. Okay, I was going to say not for a very long time, but five years.what changes do you see? And maybe this is hard to say because it's also coincided just with the growth of the program in general, as marijuana use becomes legal in more and more of at least the U. S.

[00:15:46] Bart B: We get so many people that say, Oh, my loved one, again, could be their son, their daughter, their husband or wife, or partner, that say, Oh, now that it's legal, they think it's okay to do it. And that's one of the excuses they use, it's legal, and it's okay, it's medicine, it's not addictive, it's natural.

[00:16:12] It's again the same stuff you'll hear from a lot of people. And basically it's like alcohol, some people can obviously drink casually, some people can't. Some people can use marijuana casually, and some people can't.

[00:16:23] Spencer: that's the way I look at it.

[00:16:25] Bart B: The other thing is that, when I was using it, which I wish I never did, but I did in college, I was using, I think I actually got addicted to 3 percent THC, pot, that's what we called it back then.

[00:16:37] 3%, now a lot of people are vaping and using 60%. 70, 80, 90%. So even if we take 3 percent back in the seventies when I was doing it, and we go to 60 percent now, which again is very common. that's 20 times more. And so I asked people, I said, what do you think is going to be the difference between somebody having one drink or having 20 drinks.

[00:17:03] Spencer: The other thing is that THC, which is the part that gets you high of the marijuana plant. The THC is fat soluble, so it sticks to fat. Whereas, alcohol, we know is water soluble so you pee it out and one of the fattiest parts of our bodies are brains. I know that, with alcohol, you take a drink, you're affected for a few hours, and then it's basically gone from your system. My understanding with THC, like you said, is, you put it in your system and it sticks around for longer.

[00:17:37] Bart B: Correct. It sticks to the fat in our brains in other places.

[00:17:42] Spencer: I'm going to change the subject here. I'm looking at the Mar-Anon meetings list, and I see a lot of sort of specialized meetings. So we have meeting for members with spouse and partner qualifiers. We have a global meeting which tells what time it's on in, in Pacific and Ireland and Berlin and New Delhi and Sydney. There's a book study, for Al-Anon's Paths to Recovery book. Because as you say, you don't have the literature, but you can read the Al-Anon literature and just substitute marijuana for alcohol.and then I came to this one. Mar-Anon meaning for cannabis induced psychosis, cannabinoid hyper You mean, I can't even pronounce it.

[00:18:30] Bart B: So CHS, a lot of people just say. I'll answer the question first, at least what I think you're trying to get at is I want to make it clear to people that, I wouldn't, put too much emphasis on the title of the meeting because, it just means that group decided that they wanted to name it that name.

[00:18:49] however, if you can make a meeting and you're curious. I would go to any meeting and then you'll find that there's people there that just have a loved one that suffers from cannabis use disorder, either they're in recovery, like going to marijuana anonymous, and that type of thing, or working with an addiction therapist, or they're not.

[00:19:11] But I would just go to any meeting and just check it out.

[00:19:13] Spencer: We find this also in Al-Anon. We have meetings that are focusing on, say, the experience of being the parent of an alcoholic. Meetings that focus on being an adult child of an alcoholic. We have the Alateen, which is for, not quite adult children of alcoholics.

[00:19:33] But the one that caught my eye was the one about, cannabis induced psychosis, et cetera. And I'm like, okay, I think many people have some notion about the diseases that come with alcoholism. We've heard of them.

[00:19:48] the cannabis use disorder related syndromes or diseases, whatever we want to call them, I think probably are less familiar to most people.

[00:19:59] Bart B: I agree totally. And that's why I think Mar-Anon is important to have in addition to Al-Anon because, the conditions that you say are different. There's CHS, which some people call it scromiting. So a lot of times people will scream and vomit at the same time.

[00:20:16] Spencer: Oh my goodness.

[00:20:17] Bart B: no, It's terrible and I hope nobody's eating, but anyway, it's really terrible. people, unfortunately their kidneys have given out and a very small percentage have,died from it. But usually people get to the emergency room in time and they get fluids right into them.

[00:20:32] It's very, debilitating and just to give people an idea, you can check out the, CHS. Facebook recovery group has about 30, 000 members.

[00:20:42] Spencer: Wow.

[00:20:43] Bart B: I did some reading and some research on it and they figure about two and a half million people have either had CHS or have CHS, the combination. So about two and a half million.

[00:20:55] A lot of times doctors and nurses, they know more about it, but they used to say, Oh no, marijuana can't cause that. And yes, it can, unfortunately. And then, Yeah, the Saturday meeting, if people can make the Saturday meeting, which is like in that long title, then that would be, I would say, the meeting that probably people should at least try to go to at least once because we have 20 to 30 people in that meeting and a lot of them have been going for years.

[00:21:23] And they know a lot. They have a lot of recovery behind them. And they are open to people contacting them and helping them out.

[00:21:31] Spencer: They can provide support for people who are trying to support their addicted loved one.

[00:21:38] Bart B: Exactly.

[00:21:38] Yeah, okay. This is where having the more focused recovery group on, marijuana, Naranon for opioids has been around for a long time. we can find that kind of help, might not be available as commonly in, in Al-Anon, which is, obviously the bigger program, the more well known, although it's not as well known as I wish it was, but you know, we're working on that. Oh, yeah. Thank you.

[00:22:07] Spencer: again, looking at the website, I see there's some pamphlets. what is Mar-Anon, bookmark, what is cannabis use disorder and about some of these,

[00:22:16] Bart B: Like CHS.

[00:22:18] Spencer: and, psychosis.and a detoxing pamphlet. Oh, those are for Marijuana Anonymous, those two.

[00:22:26] CBD and detoxing.oh, and here's your letters. Okay. I'm addicted to marijuana. I need your help. I have cannabis induced psychosis. I need your help. I have CHS. I need your help. So again, if people aren't sure whether Mar-Anon program was going to help them. There's a lot of stuff here to help you figure it out before you even take the chance of signing into a Zoom meeting.

[00:22:49] And oh my god, I mean signing into a Zoom meeting is so low barrier, right? Becauseyou can come in anonymous, leave your camera off.

[00:22:59] Bart B: I totally agree with you. They don't have to have their camera on. They don't have to share. They can just check it out. And like you said before that, you can check out the website.

[00:23:08] Spencer: Don't have to worry that somebody sees you going into the meeting.

[00:23:11] Bart B: There's so many people that go, What? I can't believe you're making a big deal out of marijuana. And a lot of that is because, again, it used to be so weak, and now, most of it is very strong.

[00:23:23] Spencer: Yeah. I have a son who I think he still uses it casually. He was living in Colorado when recreational marijuana use became legal in Colorado, which was a few years ago now,

[00:23:37] Bart B: Right.

[00:23:38] Spencer: and he also vaped, nicotine. And so he got himself some THC and put it in his vape pen, and I think he said he was unable to do anything for hours because he put too much in.

[00:23:51] Another thing that I wonder,in Al-Anon, our affected loved ones range from generally teenage children, through near end of life.

[00:24:00] So we have parents, we have children, we have spouses. What is your observation, if you can, about the age range of the addicted loved ones of the people who are in Mar-Anon?

[00:24:14] Bart B: that's a good question. I go to a lot of meetings and I help run the Mondays and Wednesday meetings. I'd say around 14 to 15 usually is the youngest as far as their sons or daughters, and then up to in the 70s,

[00:24:30] Spencer: really say so sort of the same. Somebody in their 70s, who's struggling with, cannabis use disorder. Is this somebody who maybe started using recently when it became legal, or they've been using their whole life and now they use more, or,

[00:24:46] Bart B: Most of them, been using their whole life. some of them, of course, often on maybe their whole life and others, they just enjoy it like people having a couple of drinks a night or something.

[00:24:55] What's happened is with the legalization in a lot of states and the availability of very strong vapes, different types of like dabs, waxes, et cetera.

[00:25:08] Where again, you're getting, up to, close to a hundred percent THC. They can get that much more addicted to it.

[00:25:16] Spencer: Of course, we're talking about the users, which is not what Mar-Anon's about, but I guess I'm trying to untangle what are the differences in the Mar-Anon members experience with their loved ones use and misuse and abuse versus alcohol, I'm just trying to understand that.

[00:25:33] Bart B: Okay. So with alcohol, we've had hard alcohol for a long time.what's new, what's different with the marijuana is we haven't had high THC cannabis or marijuana for very long. I would say the difference, because it's new on the scene and people didn't understand it.

[00:25:53] And obviously, the more it affects our loved ones, who have cannabis use disorder, then the more it affects us.

[00:26:01] Spencer: I guess I could make a parallel with opiates and opioids in that respect, that the recent development of things like fentanyl have changed the risk profile for opiate users.

[00:26:16] Bart B: I agree.

[00:26:18] Spencer: I keep going off on these tangents because these things occur to me like differences between the way that marijuana affects the body and the mind and the way that alcohol affects the body and the mind and one of those that I really don't understand very well is how it affects your ability to drive.

[00:26:35] I don't know what the legal situation is. Is there some THC blood level or something that is equivalent to DUI?

[00:26:44] Spencer: I don't know.

[00:26:45] Bart B: That's a good question. I think they're working on that, but I haven't really heard any reliable tests at this time. I do know that a lot of people think they can play the guitar better, they can drive better, drive just as good, and all that, high on THC. And when they've done the tests,in the laboratories or whatever, they can't,

[00:27:05] Spencer: A friend of my ex wife's told this story. This is back in maybe the 80s or the 70s. He and his friend had gotten really stoned and they were driving home on Interstate 15 and cop pulled him over and, comes to the window, asks the standard question, do you know how fast you were driving?

[00:27:24] And he's like, I have no idea. The cop says, you were going 20 miles an hour, that's why I pulled you over.

[00:27:31] Bart B: Yeah, so true. Unfortunately, I know, there are definitely funny stories and all that and I have some of my own, but, unfortunately, I know people whose loved ones have been killed by it. People that are high on THC.

[00:27:42] I'm sure. And you probably met some of them in the meeting, Yeah.

[00:27:47] Spencer: What else do you want to tell me about Mar-Anon and about how it has In particular, helped you. I'm going to guess that your other son is maybe still smoking marijuana or whatever.

[00:28:00] Bart B: it's a really good question. I don't really know. We don't have a relationship with him at this time,

[00:28:05] Spencer: Okay.

[00:28:06] Bart B: So I don't know. However, I do know that starting the zoom meetings, and doing the work that I do, taking phone calls, answering emails, et cetera, being there to try to help others has really helped me. Just like when I was in Al-Anon and I did the same type of thing and I just feel like I have a purpose in my life and that I'm making a difference and that helps me.

[00:28:33] Spencer: You've been in Al-Anon for a while, so you, you got detach and all that stuff from Al-Anon. Has your attendance at Mar-Anon, deepened that in relationship to your son?

[00:28:45] Bart B: Yes, I think it's just basically reinforced that I can't control my son. I can't change him. It's helped me to live my life and take care of myself. And, nurture myself and be as loving and kind as I can be, and just hoping and praying for the best for my son.

[00:29:08] Spencer: Yeah, that's what we can do.

[00:29:11] As we close down this conversation, what message do you have for somebody who's considering Mar-Anon or has just now heard of it?

[00:29:22] Bart B: I would say If you go to a meeting, I think you'll find support and find people who understand. Instead of if you went to your family members or friends, a lot of times they'll say, again, it's just weed, it's just pot, that's in, something that you have a problem with, but it's no big deal.

[00:29:38] Spencer: So I think, if you just check out a meeting, again, you don't have to be on video, you don't have to share, I think you'll find a lot of support there.

[00:29:47] Thank you.

Song 1

[00:29:48] Spencer: I did ask you to pick some music and you picked three songs from Daphne Willis, which I am not familiar with her work.what can you tell us about her in particular and then about this first song you picked, I Am Enough?

[00:30:03] Bart B: to be honest, cause it's all about, we're, as sick as our secrets, I really don't know much about Daphne Willis because I don't listen to that much music. I enjoy music when I hear it. I asked a friend of mine, and she gave me these three and I actually listened to them.

[00:30:19] I really liked them. And I would say the title more than anything. I am enough. I really like it. I think the message is that even though I don't have a relationship with my son right now and my other son passed away. I do feel like I need to be reminded that I'm enough and if I'm going to listen to any songs it's going to be positive songs like that.

[00:30:47] Spencer: Okay, there will be a video, on our website at therecovery. show slash 430, the notes for this episode. Go check that out.

Our Lives in Recovery

[00:31:07] Spencer: In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery. How have we experienced recovery recently?

[00:31:13] I have a sponsee who got partway through the steps and then life changed and didn't have the time or the energy to continue, and is now back and saying, Hey, I think I need to really focus back on the steps, at this point in my life.

[00:31:31] So we met yesterday. I said, where do you want to go? Do you want to start where we left off? Do you want to go back to the beginning? It's been a few years. And so we agreed that, yeah, going back to the beginning, at least reviewing the earlier steps.because, you know, their outlook has changed, their understanding has changed, their experience is different now, their loved one is suffering some severe medical, consequences as a result of their addiction. So their life's in a different place. We decided we would meet regularly because that is the way you get it done.

[00:32:08] If you just say, Oh, we'll meet when we can. You know what? That doesn't happen. So, we are setting up regular meeting times every couple weeks, and we're going to go back and start with step one again. I think we'll probably go a little more quickly through the first three steps than we did the first time.

[00:32:26] One of the things that is good for me here is that it brings me back to looking again at, why I'm here. what does step one mean for me today? Because if we're going to talk about what step one means for my sponsee, we're also going to talk about what it means for me, or at least I'm going to talk about that to myself.

[00:32:46] so this is, this is good. and I now have two sponsees who are actively working the steps at the moment, so that's cool. That's where I am in recovery right now. Life has been fairly steady, and I've talked about that before in earlier episodes. How about yourself? What's going on in, in your recovery life?

[00:33:04] Bart B: Yeah,I would say that I do a lot of 12 step work,through Mar-Anon. But someone said many years ago to me in Al-Anon, it's not a one step program. So sometimes I forget about that, and I have to, right now, remind myself that I need to work the steps and continue to work the steps, not just say,over and over at meetings or just read about them, but I actually need to work them and more than just step 12.

[00:33:34] Right now what I'm doing is I'm, focusing on steps one, two, and three. And in my, brief summary of steps one, two, and three is, I've heard this again many times before. step one tells me that I can't do it by myself. I can't work my recovery by myself. I need my higher power. I need other people in Al-Anon and in Mar-Anon to help me.

[00:33:59] Okay. So I can't do it by myself. Number two, I'm gonna let my higher power and others help me again, who are in the program. And, number three, I'm coming to the conclusion that it's impossible for me to just be sitting by myself and, not engage with the programs that work for me, which again is Al-Anon and Mar-Anon, and engage with the people that care, understand, and love and support me. will respect my anonymity.

[00:34:33] Spencer: Yeah. That's important. Thank you.

Upcoming in the podcast

[00:34:36]

[00:34:37] Spencer: I always, look forward a little bit what's coming up in the podcast and I'm still working on the steps. I've got steps eight through 12 coming. We always welcome your thoughts. You can join our conversation. You can leave a voicemail or send us an email with your feedback or your questions or your shares about the steps. Bart, how can people send us feedback?

[00:34:57] Bart B: You can send a voicemail or email to feedback at the recovery dot show, or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 734 707 8795. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer. We'd love to hear from you. Share your experience, strength, and hope, your questions about today's topic of Miranon. Or any of our upcoming topics, including steps eight through 12. If you have a topic you'd like us to talk about, let us know.

[00:35:33] If you'd like an advance notice for some of our topics, so that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list. By sending an email to feedback at the recovery dot show, put quote unquote, email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.

[00:35:51] Spencer: As you might have guessed by now, the website is TheRecovery. show. There's some other aliases that also work if you're more familiar with those. And you can find the current episode at TheRecovery. show slash the number of the episode. So this is 430, which is at therecovery. show slash four three zero. In there you will find links to Mar-Anon, a link to buy the Melody Beattie book, and the videos, for the songs by Daphne Willis.

Song 2

[00:36:25] Bart B: We will take a short break before we dive into the mailbag. Our second musical selection available on the website is Keep On Keeping On by Daphne Willis.

Listener Feedback

[00:36:46] Spencer: Let's hear from you. Kathy writes in response to the episode 427 titled When the Behavior is Too Much for Most of Us with Misty B. Dear Spencer, what would I do without you and your show? My 45 minute commute is so much better with you keeping me company most days. I truly appreciate the hard work that goes into what you do. The content and guests are always amazing, and I always seem to hear exactly what I need to.thanks Kathy, and thanks Misty.

[00:37:17] Mary writes, Hi, I have enjoyed your podcast. Thank you. I have tried to join some 12 step groups where I live in my local area, but I encountered some trouble. It seems like the group I was in was breaking many 12 step rules. For example, despite rules about not proselytizing, it seemed like The codependency 12 step group that I tried to join was trying to get people from the group to attend services at a particular church.

[00:37:40] I also learned more about the so called 13th step, and while this never happened to me, it makes me feel scared that there is not proper oversight to protect participants from predatory people who have bad intentions being in a 12 step program. I also want to add that it seemed like the anonymous part of the 12 step groups was not being respected, where it seemed like people were gossiping in different 12 step groups about people in other groups, all about people in our local area.

[00:38:06] It was in a manner that I thought was not respectful of the sensitive details and the nature of what people share in 12 step groups. For me, the anonymous part is very important to feel comfortable in a group. So I felt this was very damaging to my sense of trust in 12 step programs, especially where I live.

[00:38:23] My therapist believes in 12 step programs and has told me that AA and similar programs saves lives. I have heard people say it takes time to find a group where you feel a good sense of fit. I don't live in a very large city, however, so I sometimes wonder whether there is any group that would be a good fit for me, especially as I don't want to be in a group where I'm being proselytized to, especially being told to attend services at a particular church or where anonymity is not respected.

[00:38:47] Have you talked about these issues before? Thank you. Mary.I don't think we've talked about those issues in particular, it probably has come up in my conversations with some of my guests. But it sounds like the Groups that you've checked out are really not following the traditions.

[00:39:09] Here's part of the thing, like we don't actually have rules, we have traditions and recommendations. One of the phrases that you may hear is obedience to the unenforceable. Because no particular person or people are supposed to be in charge of other people. I think there's another tradition about that, being placed in authority over other people.

[00:39:36] It really is the responsibility of every individual, and the group as a whole, to enforce adherence to the principles and if the group is unhealthy, then yeah, that's not going to happen and you're absolutely right to leave.I'm hoping that your therapist might be able to refer you to some healthy groups in your area or online.

[00:39:59] I did send you, a zoom link for an Al-Anon meeting that I trust online. It's called You're Not Alone. It's at 7 30 a. m. Eastern time every day. If you're listening to the podcast and you're interested, you can find it on the alanon.Org site under, electronic meetings, global electronic area, I think is the subheading on the meetings menu.

[00:40:24] Just type in, you are not alone, four words, and it should pop right up.

[00:40:34] The things that Mary mentions, she mentions at least two out of the three obstacles to success in Al-Anon. You can just Google obstacles to success in Al-Anon, and it will pop up in several locations. But it shows up in particular in the Al-Anon book, Al-Anon and Alateen Groups at Work, which is a free PDF download.

[00:40:57] I'll put a link in the show notes at TheRecovery. show slash 430. It's on pages 20 to 21. And reading says: three obstacles to success in Al-Anon. This passage has helped many groups to resolve group problems. All Al-Anon discussions should be constructive, helpful, loving, and understanding. In striving toward these ideals, we avoid topics that can lead to dissension and distract us from our goals.

[00:41:26] 1. Discussions of Religion. Al-Anon is not allied with any sect or denomination. It is a spiritual program based on no particular form of religion. Everyone is welcome, no matter what affiliation or none. Let us not defeat our purpose by entering into discussions concerning specific religious beliefs.

[00:41:46] 2. Gossip. We meet to help ourselves and others learn and use the Al-Anon philosophy. In such groups, gossip can have no part. We do not discuss members or others, and particularly not the alcoholic. Our dedication to anonymity gives pople confidence in Al-Anon. Careless repeating of matters heard at meetings can defeat the very purposes for which we are joined together.

[00:42:10] 3. Dominance. Our leaders are trusted servants. They do not govern. No member of Al-Anon should direct, assume authority, or give advice. Our program is based on suggestion, interchange of experience, and rotation of leadership. We progress in our own way and pace. Any attempt to manage or direct is likely to have disastrous consequences for group harmony.

[00:42:33] So if you're in a group where one or more of these things is happening, my suggestion is find a different group. Thanks for writing, Mary. I would invite your sharing if you've experienced the kind of problems that Mary lists, and or have helped to resolve those kinds of problems in your group or in your life.

[00:42:55] send us an email, a voicemail and share your experience. Thanks.

[00:43:00] Nora wrote, Hey Spencer, I hope you are well, have been meaning to leave feedback, but in terms of future podcasts, here are two that I would love to hear. The first would be on two way prayer with Father Bill, who has a podcast and has really been helpful to me.

[00:43:13] He is a historian of AA as well. I really recommend his pod and would love to hear him tell you about two way prayer as a tool for Al-Anons and all who are in recovery or are interested in connecting with a higher power.

[00:43:27] Spencer: The second subject that I would love to hear discussed probably with a panel or at least one person well versed in this is the non conference approved approach of using the Big Book. That's the Alcoholics Anonymous Big Book.

[00:43:41] The third subject might be a step study group that uses the Big Book. I'm in it right now doing my second inventory this way and man is it thorough. I would likely ask the leaders of the group to participate in your podcasts as they are quite articulate and have a ton of recovery.

[00:43:54] Thanks, Spencer, for all you do. It is an honor to get to do the pod with you. I look forward to getting to do it again when I don't have undiagnosed Lyme disease. All the best, Nora. Nora was a guest on episode 413 Step 1, Finding Strength in Surrender. And she was a little fuzzy during part of our conversation. Turned out she had Lyme disease and didn't know it. I hope you're getting better, Nora. I think I heard from you that you are.

[00:44:26] Those are interesting topics. and the second topic actually aligns with a topic that somebody asked about maybe last episode or two episodes ago about doing the steps using the AA Big Book approach.

[00:44:39] It's not Al-Anon, obviously, but this podcast is centered on Al-Anon, but it is not Al-Anon, and so it could be an interesting thing to talk about in an episode. I have links to Father Bill's podcast on Apple and Spotify also. Jennifer says, Hi, I have been listening to your show for a few years. I love it and thank you.

[00:45:02] I don't know if you've ever done a show on dry drunks, but it is something that I would be interested in. My husband has been sober for over 30 years, but as we got busy with having children and doing their activities, he stopped going to meetings. One of our sons is an alcoholic, and that's how I got back into Al-Anon.

[00:45:17] I've been realizing that I do the same thing to my husband as I did with our son. I know that the steps are still the same, whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not. But sometimes I feel different because I only have his behavior to look at, not a reason for the behavior like drinking. I don't know if that made sense. Anyway, just a thought.

[00:45:35] Thanks for all you and your show do. Signed, Jennifer.

[00:45:39] The way I think about it is that consuming alcohol is a symptom of the disease, and even when an alcoholic is not drinking, it still is advisable for them to treat the underlying isms, the underlying disease. That's why, whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not, when I first heard that, it's like, well, if they're not drinking, thenwhy do we need a program? As I discovered, my wife's been sober for 19 and a half years and I still need my program because it's really not about her. It's about me and the way that I react to other people's behavior, and in particular to behaviors that activate some of my character defects. That's what I need Al-Anon for. I came to Al-Anon because of her drinking, of her alcoholism, and she still is an alcoholic and she still in her meeting says every time, I'm an alcoholic. those are my thoughts. I'd love to hear from others who have your own experience, strength, and or hope to share about living with an alcoholic who is sober, but not in recovery, I think is maybe the way to put it. And how your Al-Anon program, helps you with that. Got a voicemail from Pat

[00:47:02] Pat: Hey Spencer, this is Pat from the West Coast. I sat down to write about grief and relief, in your recent request and found myself instead writing in reply to the listener who asked about how to deal with friends telling her how to handle the alcoholic in her life.and I remember early in my recovery, as my then husband's alcoholism was becoming more and more evident, and I was beginning to share with others in my family my distress.

[00:47:30] They often had both advice and directives and judgments of my husband, and telling me what I should do. I found that if I tried to share in a way that felt true to Al-Anon by looking at myself, my role, my choices, they often felt it necessary to come to my defense. I quickly learned to have those conversations with other Al-Anon members, realizing that if I continued to indulge in eliciting poor you responses, I would never grow the way I wanted to.

[00:48:01] Another time I brought to my regular Al-Anon group as a topic, the question of what to do when my then husband criticized me. I really had blinders on and felt backed into a corner. Just could not see clearly my way out of it. I always reacted with justifying, arguing, defending, and explaining myself to him.

[00:48:20] which of course is Jade. And then after the meeting, a member came up to me and she gently said that maybe I could do some readings on detachment. I didn't even get it at the time. I was looking for an answer, but I just, I had these blinders on. But it wasn't very long before I remembered the situation.

[00:48:36] It was like big duh came to mind. I was accompanied by a grin of understanding, but that really was the key. Detachment really, really was the key and it ties in with that tradition about having no outside opinions. I really liked how you tied that tradition in to your answer on the podcast.

[00:48:55] Another time after I'd been in the program for about 15 years, I had a friend who introduced me to someone. She thought I could help. I think she thought by introducing us, I would tell the other person that they should separate themselves from the person in her life. It was using alcohol in excess.

[00:49:11] I think my friend was quite surprised. I declined to instruct our now mutual acquaintance on what she should do. And again, that was detaching from what my other friends expectations were so I think actually there's lots and lots of literature on detachment. There's a lot in the podcast about detachment, but thank you for letting me share Spencer and have a great evening.

[00:49:37] Bye. Bye.

[00:49:37] Spencer: Thanks Pat, there's a lot of good stuff in there, thank you for sharing that.

[00:49:42] A lot of experience that hopefully somebody else will be able to take something from. You mentioned detachment as really the key to those situations that you talk about. The Al-Anon detachment flyer, pamphlet, whatever it is, it's like, you know, one narrow sheet printed on both sides, so I don't know exactly what to call it, is actually a free download from alanon.Org and I will put a link to that in the show notes at the recovery. show slash four three zero. And that's it for your voices in this episode.

[00:50:17] Bart, I want to thank you, for joining me today, and, schooling us about Marineron, because I was not even aware that it existed before you contacted me. So thank you.

[00:50:29] Bart B: I appreciate it. Thank you, Spencer, for having me.

[00:50:31] Spencer: and hopefully, somebody is listening right now, right now in the future, who will come and find exactly what they needed.

[00:50:41] Bart B: thanks so much and I really appreciate it.

Song 3

[00:50:43] Bart B: Our last song selection is Break the Silence by Daphne Willis, which you can listen to at therecovery. show slash four three zero.

Outro

[00:50:59] Spencer: Thank you for listening. Please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you are facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding love and peace grow in you one day at a time.