Intro

[00:00:01] Heather C: I know that the only thing that I need to do today is maintain my intentions, walk in grace as much as I possibly can. Know that I might have flare ups. Cause life gets crazy sometimes, but I'll do the best that I can to manage my own thoughts and behaviors. That's the only thing I can do here.

[00:00:22] Spencer: Welcome to episode 428 of The Recovery Show. This episode is brought to you by Kerry, John, Laura, Karen, and Rachel. They used the donation button on our website. Thank you, Kerry, John, Laura, Karen, and Rachel for your generous contributions. This episode is for you.

[00:00:41] We are friends and family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes. And we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:57] Heather C: Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show, we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program. During this show, we will share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you will find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:01:17] Spencer: My name is Spencer. I'm your host. And joining me today is Heather. Welcome back to the recovery show, Heather.

[00:01:24] Heather C: Thank you so much for having me today. I'm so grateful that you're giving this topic some time for me to reflect, for listeners to reflect. I'm grateful. Thanks.

[00:01:35] Spencer: And what the topic is, we'll get to in a moment. We're going to open with a reading. You want to tell us about it.

Separating from the Dysfunction

[00:01:42] Heather C: I brought in the first reading which is Hope for Today on January 18th.

[00:01:47] This was the only thought I remembered from my first Al Anon meeting. We can learn to live at peace with ourselves and others. Quote, live at peace with ourselves and others? I wondered, how do people do this? From my alcoholic upbringing to my own family, and workplace, I had never experienced a peaceful way of life. With myself, I was constantly fighting against the guilt, fear and anger that ruled my life. With others, I was always fighting for some cause or belief, trying to make them see that my position was the right one. Of course I never won, and the wars never ceased.

[00:02:24] When I came to Al Anon, I finally found a peace I desired so much. Al Anon taught me that the path to peace is accepting the people, places, and things, and situations, I cannot change. Accepting myself as I am, by working steps four through nine, freed me from my self inflicted inner judge and jury. Accepting others with the use of the serenity prayer allowed me to stop fighting.

[00:02:49] Acceptance allows God to do what I cannot. Acceptance opens the door for my growth and leads me on my spiritual journey one day at a time. Accepting the things I cannot change is not always easy. Sometimes I really fight it. Because my life is always changing, there is always Is some new person or situation to accept.

[00:03:10] Fortunately, I don't have to go through the acceptance process alone. My higher power provides the power. Al Anon provides the path and the people in the program provide the support. All I need to experience peace is to keep coming back.

[00:03:25] And the thought for the day, peace is a natural outgrowth of acceptance.

[00:03:30] And the Alateen talks back on acceptance quotation is, acceptance comes through the comfort we receive from members at meetings when we slowly begin to understand and care about ourself and others.

[00:03:43] Spencer: I just want to note you sent me a photo of this page from your book and it is underlined and starred and there's a pink arrow tag and there's some highlighting and you wrote stuff in the margin in between the lines. Wow

[00:04:01] Heather C: Yeah, welcome to me living Al Anon. I'm messy.

[00:04:05] Spencer: Why this reading?

[00:04:08] Heather C: this one really hits me because I did grow up in a family that I knew was affected by dysfunction. I knew I was living in a toxic environment. But until, I came into Al Anon, right before I came into Al Anon, I had no idea what alcoholism was. The family disease of alcoholism. That was never really an awareness in my mind. Growing up, I was, the person who was always fighting in a home where one critical parent was always volatile, raging, very violent, emotionally, physically, verbally abusive. The other parent was the doormat, the submissive, the quiet, the not fighting.

[00:04:50] I was the firstborn of two and I was always rising up. I played a few different roles. You know how they talk about in the big book, of, AA, all of the different roles in the play. I played a few different roles. One role was, the fighter of injustice. I was always rising up against my critical parent, either to protect myself, to, justify, argue, defend, explain, JADE. You know, no, that's not true.

[00:05:16] to protect the other people in my family. hey, no, you don't yell at him. Why are you yelling at him? that kind of thing. Much to my own, undoing because that set me up to be the aggressor later, which I'll get to in a bit. but I also was the scapegoat. I also played the role of the scapegoat.

[00:05:35] I was always in the light. And so I was always getting the criticism, being in trouble, being told I was the bad apple,and that was what I Kerryd into the rest of my life.

[00:05:48] Spencer: You were the, the nail sticking up that got pounded down.

[00:05:53] Heather C: The squeaky wheel.

[00:05:54] Spencer: Yes. so we're here today to talk about how did you put it? when the alcoholic in your life gets to be too much or something.

[00:06:05] Heather C: Yeah, we hear in our literature, the line that says living with an alcoholic may be too much for many of us. And that one always speaks to me because I can say that,as I grew up with my family, there were multiple periods in my life where I shut out my family. I will say that I was taught the family cycle to do that.

[00:06:25] That is exactly what both of my parents did with their families. so I, I learned how to do that. and when it was too much for me to bear, when living with the people was hard and I didn't know what to do with that, I shut it off. because that was the best coping skill that I had.

[00:06:45] There were several times of that in my lifetime. When I finally,became a parent and was about to have my first child, I had this moment of, do I be the bigger person? Like, how do I be the bigger person? I know how I was impacted in my life when my family cut out family and I lost my extended family. I know what that feels like. Do I give my children the opportunity to know their grandparents, or do I protect my children from these people who are toxic?

[00:07:17] I spent hard, hard thought thinking about that. Ultimately, I decided, long story short, that I was not going to build a boundary there.

[00:07:25] I had my little toddlers, and I still had the same exact relationship with my parents that I always had. And I would go over there, it would get toxic. I would pack up my kids. Okay, kids, time to go, and leave as fast as I possibly could. That was how my early days with my children were. This was all pre program.

[00:07:43] Spencer: And, that combined with the fact that doing life as an adult. I now know that I was an adult child trying to do life. That combined with the fact that I had really rough survival skills, my marriage was suffering. my work was suffering and my children were being raised with the shoddy tools that I had, the best that I could do. what happened for me was around the time that my kids were in the like 10, 11, 12 phase, they were getting bigger, more vocal, and I was exhibiting a lot more control, a lot more rage, and I had a catalyst moment where I saw myself becoming my mom more than ever before. I'll be honest with you, that rocked me to the core.

[00:08:36] Heather C: So what happened for me was I had this moment and then I said, if I don't do something right now, literally right now, my kids are going to feel the same way that I feel. They're going to feel about me, how I feel about my own mother. And I could not bear that. So I put myself back into therapy. Not the first time I've been in therapy. I put myself back into therapy. You know, I walk in, I go, okay, here's everything that's wrong with me, my mom, my dad, my sister, me, blah, blah, blah.

[00:09:01] And this is the first therapist who ever said, that sounds like classic alcoholism. Have you ever heard of AA? Have you ever heard of Al Anon? And I had not. I did not jump into Al Anon that day. Two years later, my life is still unmanageable.

[00:09:18] Spencer: If it took the therapist to identify symptoms of alcoholism. I'm guessing you didn't say, Oh my God. Yeah, that's what was going on.

[00:09:28] Heather C: Right,

[00:09:29] And so why this Al Anon thing? Cause that's about alcoholics and there's not alcoholics here as far as I know. right. That's right. That's right. and it just so happened that one day I was complaining to a coworker about everything. My marriage, my, my family, my kids, my work. And he goes, look, can I take you to a meeting? And he is a double winner. God bless him. he was in AA and Al Anon and he took me to my first Al Anon meeting on my lunch break. It was a mile away from our office. I started being one of those fringe Al Anon people who, you know, kind of walked in after the meeting started, walked out before the meeting ended. But the relief that I got there was so significant because I finally heard people telling my story. Because in my family, I was the only one. I was the only one who felt like this reality doesn't quite mesh with the reality that I think I understand in my mind, but these people understood what I was saying. And so that launched me into, my path in the Al Anon world.

[00:10:39] All that to say this topic really has come about because, when I first came into Al Anon and I started working with a sponsor, I said, look, we don't really have to work on my parents. I pretty much have a void where that relationship was supposed to be. And I'm fine with it. I've made peace with it. We don't have to do any work

[00:10:57] Spencer: So were you still in contact with your parents, were you still taking the kids to visit and all that?

[00:11:04] Heather C: By void, I mean, you know, there's always the push and pull in dysfunctional families, and the step, one summary from the ACA book that I'm going to read later talks to that. There's always this push and pull. Like, I'm always desiring the family model so much that I keep wanting to jump back in, keep hoping for the best, but then I get scarred and run right back out again. And also, part of the Al Anon disease that I have is looking perfect. And so my perfect family model was making sure that I still do all the holidays, you know, do all the birthdays. Show up. So when I started talking about family with my sponsor, it was like, I have an emotional void, in denial. AkA let's talk about denial.

[00:11:55] Spencer: Okay, now I get

[00:11:56] Heather C: I have a void where my family is because I had shut that down emotionally. And she just smiled politely and said, okay, let's see how it goes. Right.and we started about working on other things, but little by little as Al-Anon and other 12 step, perhaps does. My heart started softening. I started, especially in the fourth step work where I saw my own wreckage. And I could see in the mirror, how it looked so similar to the wreckage of my mom. Me becoming the aggressor, becoming the rager and understanding why, and going, Ah, I see how she could probably feel that way too. That helped soften so much of my heart for her.

[00:12:46] Did it excuse the past? No. Did it help me forgive the past? Sometimes a little bit. Some days were easier than others, not a hundred percent. But, did it fix the pieces in me that were still what I would consider broken in the spot where my self esteem fits?

[00:13:09] Spencer: No, it didn't fix that, and I continue to carry that void, but in the Al Anon journey, I started opening in my mind, can I be as kind to her as I would to any person on the street? Maybe. that's not a hard yes. That's a perhaps. I'm at least open and willing to explore that thought.

[00:13:33] And so I did. And then I started changing my thoughts and behaviors. Can I sit in the room for five minutes and not sit in constant judgment or fear? And that took practice. These are the baby steps along the way of my journey that took a lot of practice. And I was able to do that. Can I hold conversations when the flare up comes at me? Can I choose a contrary action and not react? That took a lot of practice, you know? And the cool thing for me and I feel very lucky about this. It's a little bit different than being in a domestic violence relationship where you're married. you cohabit with someone, your money is tied up with someone, you may have to get a divorce, you may have to take your kids somewhere else, it's a little different than that sort of relationship. In the outcome part, but the PTSD part is probably similar, I would imagine,I'm thinking about the differences between separating from a love partner and separating from your parent. Or I suppose your child, adult child. Because in one case, the ties are legal and there's history and emotional entanglement in the marriage case. In the parent child case, once you're adult, there's no legal connection. You can just walk away legally and nobody's going to do anything about it.but emotionally, because you've been connected. to that parent or that child for years. And there's the societal messages about, honoring your parents.

[00:15:28] I'm just thinking about those differences. Like in one case, maybe it's more spiritual, emotional than legal. but I don't know. What do I know?

[00:15:39] Heather C: I'll tell you, the ties of shame run deep. I could say it's easy to untether, it's easy to detach from them, but the lingering things that are inside me,I carry that, even if I walk away, it's like we always joke, I could move to another town, but I'd still be with me, it's, it is that true, and When I could understand that logically, because I'm doing 12 step work all the time, I could see the truth in the fact that, you know what, I want to work through this.

[00:16:14] I want to work through this so that I can heal this stuff. So that whether I talk to this person or not, whether the alcoholic is drinking or not, our literature says, I can find serenity. And that is actually what I in earnest tried to do.I can say with real honesty, and when I look at my progress, the progress that I have made in that department has been exponential.

[00:16:40] Spencer: I'm proud of it. I see it for what it is. I also see the lingering stuff that I might keep working on for the rest of my life, hopefully. I don't know. I can get more healing. When we were talking before we started recording, you talked about the relief that you got from Al-Anon. But that there were parts of you that the Al Anon work didn't heal or didn't completely heal. What does that look like?

[00:17:12] Heather C: You know the things that we work on in Al Anon, detaching, you know I learned how to go from detaching with an axe to detaching with love I can honestly say that there were times before Al Anon where it was a big F you I'm detaching with an axe And that truly did shift for me with the work in Al Anon. There was more compassion in my heart, there was more compassion in my language. Because some, one of the gifts of Al Anon for me has been really learning the language of unconditional acceptance and love. And I didn't learn that with my upbringing. But now that I know that, I get to practice that with my fellows and in meetings. Now I can use that in my everyday language. And so I could use that language better with my family. Was it received? Maybe not, typically not. But I know I have that tool.The other thing I want to say is that, the amends process when you go through, four, five, six, seven, and then you get to that big whopping eight, am I willing to write someone's name down on a list and nine, can I do this amends?

[00:18:26] When I went through the first 12 step journey, the first time I did not do an official step nine amends verbally with my parents.

[00:18:37] Spencer: The first reason was because there's still the piece of me that's yo, they hurt me. What did I do? and that's real. It's real. There's also the piece of me that's very scared. Opening a dialogue with my volatile parent is scary and I do have PTSD from that.Not knowing where I will go if I step into rage, if I lose my tools, that also scares me. And so I never was willing to do a step nine verbal amends with them, but I did do significant living amends. I talked about it with my sponsor.

[00:19:16] Heather C: I was very intentional about it. some of that was what I had already mentioned, being able to sit in a room with them without judgment, being able to carry on a conversation, asking them about themselves, which I would never do before, partially because I didn't want to hear it. And partially because, that could lead into some not safe kind of conversation. when they say news sports, weather, keep the conversation light and polite. I had to really do that with my family. Because at any moment, it could go into some really crazy town kind of conversation. I was able to do that more and I did make monumental progress and I was able to find serenity, whether they were emotionally or physically sober or not. But I think that's what I continued to see is that no matter how much work I did with them, there was still a piece of me that thought, if I keep doing this work and I keep getting better, then it'll be the salve that heals my family.

[00:20:18] Spencer: Again, I am hyper responsible for being the one in power to fix my broken family. That's a big weight to carry. Fast forward, September of last year, I went to a convention and I saw ACA, in a marathon meeting and I had always shied away from ACA because, the rumor mill kind of drums it up as being very dramatic and I thought, Oh gosh, I've had a lot of drama. I don't need any more drama in my life. I don't want to cut my wounds open. Yes.

[00:20:50] And just to clarify for the listener who's not familiar, that is Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families is the full name of that program. But we say ACA because it's a lot easier to say.

[00:21:04] Heather C: Yeah, it's a mouthful.and truly, I didn't really understand what the concept of the adult child was until this moment. So a couple things happened for me. One, I saw the concept of adult child and really for me, what I can liken that to is I've literally been married, had kids, gotten a college degree, work a job. And sometimes I'm like, how is that happening? I honestly feel like a kid myself. How am I doing all of this adulting? I feel like I have become an adult in my body, but in my emotional state, I am completely stunted. And so that's how I could equate myself into the adult child of alcoholic family or dysfunctional family.

[00:21:54] I listen to a podcast named Adult Child, and she says something like this, she says adult children are people whose dysfunctional upbringing is still causing them problems as adults, which is a very broad definition, could apply to almost everybody, butwhen it comes to, okay, I'm going to step into this 12 step program, it has to be affecting you badly enough that you're willing to do that work. Yes. That's honestly where I look at it. If we talk about codependency, we talk about enmeshment. You know what the saying is, where does the other person stop and I begin,I didn't have an understanding of that. I was always dependent on someone else for my worth definition. I was always dependent on someone else to validate me in any possible way. If someone else's emotions were flaring, I was at the whim of that. And I developed a lot of reactionary and very unhealthy behaviors to try to make my life manageable. Over controlling, hyper responsibility, people pleasing, so many.

[00:23:08] Spencer: So going back to, you stepped into this meeting at a convention. What kind of convention was it?

[00:23:16] Heather C: you know what? It's our local AA convention with Al Anon participation. And I don't know if your conventions are this way, but you have the,regular, different pieces of the convention. Separately, there's an hour by hour marathon meeting set up, both for AA and for Al Anon.

[00:23:35] Spencer: And one of those was

[00:23:37] Heather C: yes. Yes. Yes. And, I'm such a curious person. I've always asked a lot of questions. So I went up to the guy at the ACA table and said, Hey, is ACA just like an offshoot of Al Anon? And what he said to me rocked my world because I hadn't been able to put it into perspective like this.

[00:23:57] He said he was an AA to work on his relationship with alcohol, Al Anon to work on relationship with other people, places or things, and ACA to work on his relationship with his inner child and higher power . In ACA, they talk about the real parent, our bio parents are just the parents we got to give us birth, but our real parent our loving parent is our higher power. And that gave me perspective to really put it together in my mind.

[00:24:32] Spencer: So you then added ACA to your

[00:24:36] Heather C: yeah, Because everyone needs another 12 step. That is exactly what happened. I just started exploring it a little bit more and listening for it a little bit more. And so in my regular, Al-Anon meetings. I have a daily virtual Zoom meeting that I go to almost every day.

[00:24:52] I have a local in person meeting that I go to almost once a week.I just started listening. And lo and behold, fellows said some stuff that made me go, Hey, are you in ACA too? And I found a few. I found a few people that I already knew and trusted their recovery in Al Anon. And then had some ACA related conversations.

[00:25:14] Move forward. I found a sponsor, in ACA. So the good thing about for me, at least in Al Anon, I sponsor people also. So I work my program every day and I sponsor people, but I'm not working the 12 steps right now so I can put my focus into working the 12 steps of ACA and their models a little bit different, which is fine.

[00:25:38] But I found a sponsor, and we started working. It is very gentle. It is very focused on the loving relationship that I can have with myself, that I can have with my sponsor, that I can have with my higher power. and I'm in step one right now. And it's funny because in Al Anon, I was like, gold star student.

[00:26:02] Oh, step one, check. Step two, check. Step three, check. gold star. And then, I took a lot of time in step four. But here, I think I've been in step one in ACA for two months. It's a just a funny realization for me, but I'm still doing it.

[00:26:18] Maybe now would be a good time for me to read that step one summary. The ACA book, the big red book is incredible, and I'll tell you it's hilarious because I have to refrain from highlighting and underlining in this book, otherwise I would honestly highlight and underline every single word. I relate with it exponentially. it, Tells the story of my feelings, my emotions, the way that it felt when I was growing up and the way that it feels now, it resonates within me, like the fine tuning of the most perfect bell.so I'll read the step one summary and this is in the big red book pages, 122 and 123.

[00:27:06] It says these shares represent and the shares that just happened in the book is what that's referring to. It says these shares represent the basic spiritual principles of ACA's first step. Powerlessness, unmanageability, and Surrender and letting go. Step one requires that we admit that our family is dysfunctional and the dysfunction affects our thinking and behavior as adults.

[00:27:30] We must admit that we are powerless over the effects of growing up in a dysfunctional home. Our lives are unmanageable regardless of appearance of self sufficiency. Social standing or compulsive self reliance does not equal recovery. We must realize that willpower or self determination is no match for the effects of growing up in a sick family.

[00:27:52] We cannot figure it out on our own. We need help. We must shatter the illusion that we can reason out a painless solution. The shares also represent the critical separation from family. Work which is necessary to gain clarity about our lives. Separating from our families means setting healthy boundaries and removing ourselves from abusive situations and family crises, which are common for dysfunctional homes.

[00:28:21] Many times adult children struggle in their ACA program because they cannot seem to break eyes with destructive or manipulative relatives. We cannot grow and find our true inner selves as long as we engage in family dysfunction that is draining and unhealthy. Separating from our dysfunctional family is a healthy act of defiance.

[00:28:47] By doing so, we are challenging the authority of the family lie. We are making a statement that we will no longer be loyal to denial and dysfunctional family roles. This can seem frightening, but we have the support of our ACA group. Many adult children separate from their families with love, not abandonment.

[00:29:06] They need time away to focus on themselves and to disconnect from the gravitational pull of a dysfunctional home. At an appropriate time, we review the relationship we want to have with our families. We will choose to avoid some family members because they are draining or abusive. Other relatives will accept us and encourage us on our new path, even though they may not understand or be willing to walk this way with us.

[00:29:33] ACA can improve our relationship with our families with the knowledge that we do not have to participate in their dysfunction. We are free to live our own lives.

[00:29:43] Spencer: How does this work that you're doing, how has this changed your relationship with your parents? Or the way you approach your relationship with your parents, I guess

[00:29:53] Heather C: I will tell you, I hit another bottom.I mentioned that I had been making all of this progress. And for the most part, I have been living emotionally sober and serene. Even when I am in dysfunction or the alcoholic is drinking or not emotionally sober. And I feel very solid with that.

[00:30:16] And yet I had a slip. Welcome to Thanksgiving that we just had in 2024. The family, all of the family, the whole family, large, about 15 to 20 people, were coming to my new home. For the first Thanksgiving. It was a little bit stressful. I had a couple situations occur. I have a very small house smaller than my former house.

[00:30:40] My oven went out. My microwave went out. My fridge was on the fritz. I have a daughter with a disability who fell and had a significant injury that morning that we were all just navigating and yet I was using my program and still felt like I could handle things and then the last people to arrive were my parents.

[00:31:03] Brum, brum, brum. Enter parents, right? and I say that, I can say that laughing,today. I could not then. But in this moment, my sister, who is also affected by the family disease, was outside welcoming, their arrival. I went out to facilitate as well. my parents are elderly.

[00:31:25] long story short, probably should not be driving. We'll just leave it at that.their isms were already in flare in the car on the way here and I as any good child of a family of dysfunction, I knew it right away and could sense it because we are hypersensitive to those things. and my mom basically pulled up to the house, kicked my dad out of the car before it slowed down.

[00:31:52] and me and my sister were around the street trying to guide her into a very large parking spot. And I wasn't saying anything, and I wasn't saying anything, and I wasn't saying anything. I was controlling myself. And then she hit a car andhonestly, that was like the straw that broke my camel's back.

[00:32:11] I hate to say it like that because it seems minimal, but, then I stepped in to help and I'm using air quotes because in Al Anon we step in to help sometimes and hopefully someone can relate. I had truly helpful intentions and yet all of my tools were left on the driveway and now I was in the street.

[00:32:34] And so,an, altercation, I will say, she was in her isms, and I was in my isms. My sister was in her isms, so it was a whole family party, right?but, I became very abusive. regardless of what anyone else was doing, I was verbally, physically, emotionally abusive, and I do not love that. I have shame about that. so it took us several minutes to get them in the house. There were times when I was yelling at her saying you need to get your shit together Or you're not even welcome in my house And there were times when I was saying, the little kid in me was saying you have no idea how important it is that you Are coming to my house for the holidays. Very confusing Very unbalanced.

[00:33:31] and yet both of those live within me There were times when I wanted to hurt her, and there were times when I wanted to hug her so bad and wish she knew how much I loved her. Because there's still a part of me that really does love her.

[00:33:48] Spencer: Yeah,

[00:33:48] Heather C: It was a circus.And when I said that, you have no idea how important it is for me to have you here. She has this maniacal laughter come out. Which takes me right back to my childhood. And of course she's laughing at me because I'm like all over the place. Anyway, we get them inside the house and I spend another 10 minutes by myself on the driveway fuming at myself because I lost my stuff because I lost my sobriety.

[00:34:19] My sister came out, tried to calm me down. She gets it. She's dabbling in program too. She gets it. She went back inside. I went, my husband was carving the turkey. Normal family air quotes again, right?

[00:34:32] Spencer: he's I'm gonna make everything. Okay. Here. I'm just gonna pretend none of this happened. I'm carving the turkey.

[00:34:40] Heather C: Seriously. while he was carving the Turkey, I knew I had some time. So I went into my bathroom and hid. I honestly hid in my bathroom. I texted my sponsor. She didn't answer. of course, major family holiday, I texted one of my program sisters and she called me right away and talked me off the ledge.

[00:34:58] And I needed that. I needed, because I was so upset that I lashed out.and I couldn't even think about her behavior. It was all about my behavior. Anyway, fast forward after this event, I knew I needed to step into step 1 in Al Anon. Step 1, I am powerless, right?

[00:35:21] And I got all the way into, I knew I needed to make an amends. My behavior caused wreckage. yet I had to work on the willingness to do that amends, keeping in mind. I've never done a formal amends with my parents because there's fear there. but I knew that this was my behavior, and I needed to forgive myself.

[00:35:43] I needed to let go of my behavior because it was killing me. I was obsessively thinking about what had happened. I was in the past. And so in order to move forward, I know that I need to go through this process. So I, I'm working on this with my Al Anon sponsor, writing, writing drafts. my first draft is always the big, you suck.

[00:36:07] I hate you.

[00:36:11] So we finally got it down to a, like three sentence amends. Basically, it was, I know that I was causing stress in a time that you already had stress and you didn't deserve that. I wish I had been able to be in control of my self and I couldn't, and I'm sorry for that. And I want you to know that I am committed to working on that so that I can forgive myself. I talk about this with my sponsees all the time. My amends did not talk about her behavior one bit,

[00:36:48] Spencer: right.

[00:36:50] Heather C: and I have to underline and bold it. because that's how my amends work. she did not respond right away. I did not send it right away. I wrote it. I sent it on 1231 last day of the

[00:37:05] Spencer: That's a little bit later than Thanksgiving. Okay.

[00:37:08] Heather C: but I, some of that was doing the work,

[00:37:10] Spencer: Yeah. Oh, understood. Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:37:12] Heather C: And all this time I kept going because my first draft of my amends was, and I never want to see you again, kind of language. My sponsor goes, are you ending the relationship? Is that what you really want out of this? And I had to think about that, because there is a place in me that goes, together we are dysfunctional. And no matter what I do, there's nothing that I can do to fix that dysfunction by myself.

[00:37:41] Spencer: By yourself.

[00:37:43] Heather C: by myself. That's right. So long story short on all of that is I went to meetings. I talked about it. I wrote you. Hey, do you have, shows about this? how do you be in a relationship with someone who is fully dysfunctional? I just kept asking the question and I kept talking to God. I kept talking to my higher power. What do I need to do here because I didn't know what the right solution was going to be and I heard so many things from my fellows. I heard things like, why do I have to keep putting myself in harm's way?

[00:38:23] I don't need to get in the ring with the 800 pound gorilla. I know that when I do that, I will lose. One of us or the other will behave poorly, I also, heard from my sponsor and others, just let go of it needing to be and look a certain way. And okay, I can do that. That's a little unsatisfying for me, if I'm being honest, you know.

[00:38:46] but I also knew what that meant was let go of the need to draw a hard boundary that says, I never want to see you again. Or. You can be in my life. I don't have to make that decision today. Bringing that into what I read for the Step 1 summary, this gave me the permission, it gave me language to understand what I was feeling when it talked about the fact that separating from our dysfunctional family is a healthy act of defiance, challenging the authority of the family lie.

[00:39:22] I don't have to put on the mask of we are going to be a healthy family. We're not maybe, probably,I don't have to make a hard boundary. I can understand that I need to disconnect from the gravitational pull of a dysfunctional home. It pulls at me. I feel it. I want to be in family relationship. With a family. I want that.

[00:39:54] I can look at myself with grace. I can look at myself with love and know that I'm worthy of having love around me. I need to make sure to surround myself with people who can have a two way relationship in that way and these people, they can't and so I can acknowledge that. And just say that I'll do my best to be the kind of person that I want to be and acknowledge that my higher power is going to show me how to navigate through this. But that I don't have to participate in any of their dysfunction. The end of the story with the Thanksgiving moment is I sent my amends 1231. About three days later, my mom sent a text back to me that was typical. I did not have any unrealistic expectations that it would be infused with love.she was the victim. She was going to finally take the time to take care of herself instead of trying to be in a relationship with me, as the abuser. and that stung. If I'm being honest, that stung. Not surprised. I have lived my whole life where she's telling me that I'm the abuser. I can acknowledge that. I can acknowledge that I did have abusive behavior, but I am not an abuser. That is not who I am today. it's not who I want to be. And I do have remorse for that moment that I'm working on forgiving myself for.

[00:41:38] but I can also acknowledge that I have 100 percent stopped the cycle of generational trauma with my own children.and that is meaningful for me. So I don't know what's going to come. I don't know what's going to come. You know, it's funny. I live in California and we were going through all of the fires right now and we've had power on power off the whole thing.

[00:42:03] And after my mom sent me that text, I was like. Hey, that's God doing for me what I couldn't do for myself. He's yeah, I

[00:42:11] as long as you didn't have to go move in with her, I know. the funny thing was, is right now, like just a couple of days ago, she sent me a text saying, I'm thinking about you with a heart emoji.

[00:42:22] And I'm just like, again, not surprised. Who is this person? This is the person that is unstable in my life. I just ask for help and guidance from my higher power every day on what I'm supposed to do with that. And I can do nothing. Do nothing is okay.

[00:42:40] Spencer: One of the things that I hear about the ACA program is working on re parenting. What does this idea of reparenting mean to you now?

[00:42:51] Heather C: . So in Al Anon, it looks like now that I understand my standard survival skills that I've used in my life and the emotion step 4 work, right? The emotions, the triggers, how my behaviors reacted out of those emotions. Now I can learn to really recognize the emotion as it's coming up and then give myself the love or attention or validation that I need in that moment.

[00:43:23] That's in Al Anon terms for me, that's like managing my emotions instead of looking externally for somebody else to do that. Now, when I got into like my ACA thinking, I go, okay, former voice of critical parent is the the constant running voice in my head. We think about the tapes, the negative self talk tapes.

[00:43:47] It's the critical parent. It's the, you're not good enough. You're not going to be good enough. You weren't good enough in the past. You'll never be. Right.That's what it sounds like. And so now what I get to acknowledge is, there is a little child within me that didn't get that foundational knowledge mirrored back to me that I had goodness, mirrored back to me that it's okay to be human, and we make mistakes sometimes, that doesn't really mean that we're bad. And that I can love on that little child and go, it's okay.

[00:44:24] let's keep going. There's the inner teen in me that wants to lash out when those emotions come,F you,

[00:44:33] Spencer: have you seen the Pixar movie inside out or inside out 2?

[00:44:37] Heather C: Yes. I love it.

[00:44:39] Spencer: inner teen. Oh, my God.

[00:44:41] Heather C: So good. Yes. I watched that with my teens and it's just amazing. I cry through the whole thing, but that's real. That's some real stuff,

[00:44:50] Spencer: Yes. That's why we connect with it. Because, yes, it's real. We've been there. We've been there as our own teenagers. And if we have children, then we've been there with them as they're going through this.

[00:45:02] Heather C: That's right. All the anxiety, all the embarassment.

[00:45:05] Spencer: So, inner teen is the angry one. I had one very angry outer teen. Like the last six months he was with us before college, he was living with us on sufferance. I think it, maybe from both ends of the relationship. He was going to college, 2000 miles away and I drove him to the airport. And I let him off at the curb and said, have a good semester, because that's where we were.

[00:45:35] Heather C: yeah, I have a teen who went through that too. And I read somewhere along the way that's a normal behavior. It's a normal, period of detachment behavior. I was so glad that I read that because I could see it coming,

[00:45:49] Spencer: Their job is to separate from you.

[00:45:51] Heather C: that's right.

[00:45:53] Spencer: It really is. Yeah. So inner child, inner teen. Yeah.And inner critical parent now. So we've got the whole damn family there.

[00:46:01] Heather C: Yeah, so it's about the same thing. It's about being in awareness of what's happening when it's happening. So that's how I see the spirituality of this program, of all the programs of recovery, is that before I was blindly living life, completely unaware to the things that were triggering me. And my reactionary thoughts and behaviors.

[00:46:25] Spencer: Now I get to sit in awareness, I get to be present. I get to be in awareness and see it coming within me, see it bubbling up and taking form and then know that I have tools. I get to have confidence in the fact that even if discomfort is happening or when it's happening, I can go, it's okay. I'm going to survive this. We're going to be okay. All of those within me, the inner child, the inner teen and me, we're all going to be okay. And then I can address each one of those elements within me for what they need. Being afraid as a little child, really holding that child. Swaddling. I love the swaddling technique. And sometimes I'll just sit and put my arms around myself and swaddle and hug and go, you know what, honey, we're gonna be okay.and sometimes with the inner teen, sometimes I need to rage. Sometimes the anger within me is so big, it needs to come out. I'm not gonna do that today on another person, so maybe I go for a run. Maybe I, go to a rage room and break some stuff, you know.maybe I listen to some really, rockin music. all of those are healthy coping strategies instead of leaving wreckage in my life, Rage room, huh?

[00:47:46] Heather C: Yeah, have you ever heard of those?

[00:47:47] Spencer: I've heard of them. I've never been to one, never seen one. I don't know if there's any around here.

[00:47:53] Heather C: look it up. Yeah, that's worth whatever the price is. Go and take some bats, take some hammers and just break stuff.

[00:48:01] Spencer: Break stuff. Awesome. Any concluding words?

[00:48:08] Heather C: Yeah, I think this has been a great journey for me. I'm glad that I reached out to you in the beginning. I'm glad that you have listeners. people that are contributing to your podcast that talk about these hard relationships because it helped me gain more clarity listening to someone else's experience, strength and hope.

[00:48:27] I hope the same that I can pay that forward for others. I think that's the most wonderful thing. I don't have a bio family that I can have these conversations with, but I do have fellows. I do have a chosen family like you and all of the other people living this recovered lifestyle. And we can have these hard conversations and not have all the answers, but share with each other.

[00:48:50] What did you do? How does this work for you? And then I can make my own decisions about what works for me. And where I sit today, I just feel really at peace, with the fact that I don't have to make hard and fast, decisive boundaries. That is one of the urges that I have. Oh, I got to make a boundary and tell them that they're not going to be in my life any, you know.I don't have to do that. Nobody wants to receive that. I heard in a meeting, in an ACA meeting, I think it was yesterday or the day before that, disease of family dysfunction can be arrested, but never cured. It was like, Oh, just like alcohol.

[00:49:31] Spencer: Yeah.

[00:49:32] Heather C: So it just helps me. It helps me be in the present moment when I think about it like that, and I know that the only thing that I need to do today is maintain my intentions, walk in grace as much as I possibly can know that I might have flare ups. Cause life gets crazy sometimes, but I'll do the best that I can to manage my own thoughts and behaviors. That's the only thing I can do here. My parents, like I said, that it's generational trauma years and years, decades and decades for them, they didn't start it. I didn't start it. They didn't start it, but they are, a part of it. And so what I know today is that they don't deserve fear living in fear.

[00:50:17] Spencer: They don't deserve living, in, lack of acceptance, lack of love. None of us do.I, I just keep asking for my higher power to give me guidance on how I can show up in that way, whether it's with them or not. Thank you.thank you for bringing yourself and your experience, strength, and hope to this.

Song 1

[00:50:39] Spencer: We'll take a little music break here or talk about music anyway. you brought some songs. What's your first choice?

[00:50:46] Heather C: My first song is by Kelly Clarkson. It's called piece by piece. And I just think about this. All of the lyrics here are about the critical parent, the parent that, tore me down, that didn't love me, that didn't stay, that told me I was terrible and the rebuilding that can happen, with my higher power, with a loving parent voice, I can put myself back together

[00:51:11] Spencer: Piece by piece.

[00:51:13] Heather C: piece by piece.

Our Lives in Recovery

[00:51:23] Spencer: in this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery. How have we experienced recovery recently?

[00:51:30] It's been a week. late last week, my, my wife and I have a friend who, I'm not gonna take her inventory, but her life is hard, and it's hard externally, but she seems to make it harder than it needs to be, I'll just say that At the moment, she lives in a place where there's no transportation. She does not have a car. And so she needs to get rides for everything.

[00:51:55] I was tagged on Thursday to do rides. So I got to her place and I had tried to call. The phone went straight to voicemail, so I just, I droveand I got there and I banged on the door and she eventually came. She's Oh, is it two o'clock already? She was asleep.

[00:52:14] Okay, I'm sitting out in the car listening to my podcasts and,I know she'll come out. Anyway, everything with this person takes longer than I feel like it needs to.she's a nice person. She's a caring person, but everything takes longer. The thing that was happening at the end of the errands was I was going to drop her off at my wife's office where she would do her taxes.

[00:52:41] Because that's what my wife does this time of year, is people's taxes.I would just say my wife was getting more and more pissed off about the situation as we got later and later. it was supposed to be like, 3. 30 we were going to be at her office, and I think it was about 5. 30 before we got there.

[00:52:59] but, they got the taxes done and everything. , I just had to use almost all my tools, I don't know,I know. this person. I know how she is. I know how long it takes her to get things done.and I have to sit there in acceptance that this is what it is. This is what it's going to be.

[00:53:21] and I'm sitting there on a bench in the grocery store waiting for her to do her grocery shopping and thinking, how long does it take to buy, you know, and then I'm like, okay. It is what it is.

[00:53:30]

[00:53:31] So that was Thursday. Friday, on the other hand, I went to a concert that was just so good. I had a great time. The Saturday meeting that I go to is hybrid and we split into two zoom rooms, one of which is the people who are physically in the meeting and anybody who wants to join them.And the other is completely online.The online group is currently working through the book Reaching for Personal Freedom, which is a workbook on the steps, traditions, and concepts of Al Anon.

[00:54:05] Spencer: And we are in the concepts.which is all about how, Al-Anon as an organization, as a business entity works. Principles for that. And there's 12 of them because you got to have 12.We're looking at concept 10. This book has a reading about the concept and then it has, little shares where somebody shares about how they applied this concept in some situation in their life, and then they have questions.

[00:54:36] And so we read, and then we answer the question, and we get through one or two questions in a meeting, and we're going at the pace of getting done. Anyway, we're going at the pace that we need to go at to spend the amount of time we need to do to look at each of these. and sometimes it's I got nothing for this question. Okay. Move on. So concept 10 says service responsibility is balanced by carefully defined service authority and double headed management is avoided.so the first thing is what the heck is double headed management? That's we got two people who are both trying to manage process. One of the examples was this woman says, Hey, I, I put these brick border around my flower beds. And then I gave my husband like very clear instructions about how he was supposed to do the edging.

[00:55:24] And he did it his way. and I said, Hey, you didn't follow my instructions. He said, look, he says, you want to do it your way. You can do it your way. Otherwise I'm going to do it my way. And she's oh, okay. I gave him the job. Now I need to, let him do it. but I was thinking about some situations in my life where this crops up.

[00:55:43] Particularly between me and my wife, it's not always clear who is responsible for a particular thing. And sometimes neither of us does it. Not so good. And sometimes both of us try to do it. We've engaged a landscaping firm to, make our yard pretty after 30 years of just random growth.

[00:56:04] We pay them to come and do cleanup and spread new mulch and stuff like that. They did that in the fall. They did two things in the fall, and they sent us two separate bills for the two things they did, and I paid one of them and not the other, and so then we had this back and forth about, hey, you need to pay this invoice. I had a back and forth with, their accountant, where he explained that, Oh, there were two bills that the number was like one digit apart.

[00:56:30] So it's not surprising. I got confused and they both came at the same time. and I'm like, Oh, okay. I understand now and I'll pay the other one. But meanwhile, my wife doesn't see this correspondence and she jumps in to try to get her understanding of what happened or didn't happen and what we need to do.

[00:56:46] And I just took a breath. I said, Sorry, I had this correspondence with the office manager that you were not in the loop on, so you didn't understand. It's all set, and we're good. But I was like, yeah, that's double headed management because the responsibility was not clear. I didn't step up and say, I'm taking care of this. You don't need to worry about it. I just started taking care of it.

[00:57:14] I think there's a pattern there. I maybe have to think about that a little bit. Whatever we're looking at somehow, I always have a situation in my life that I can apply it to. It's just amazing how, appropriate sometimes these things are to, to life in general.

[00:57:30] Heather C: When you say that, I'm thinking about my sponsor. She always says, one butt in one chair, because the other side of double headed management for me is trying to be in every single chair

[00:57:42] Spencer: Yes.

[00:57:43] Heather C: and I need to let go and only take my chair's responsibilities.

[00:57:49] Spencer: So that's a couple of things from my life recently. How about you? I mean, you had the fires. Oh my God. I assume you had to use some program principles to, to get through that without going crazy.

[00:58:01] Heather C: for sure. Yeah, a lot of it is about letting go. letting go and really the serenity prayer. There's only so many things in a day when it's especially crazy in the community like that. There are only so many things that we do have the power to control. we literally were powerless.

[00:58:18] Our power was turned off for several days at a time, then on again, inevitably I'd go grocery shopping on Sunday, power goes off Monday through Thursday. It is a little bit tricky to navigate that, with grace. And low frustration levels. But, we just do what we can because there's not a lot that you can do to control it.

[00:58:41] We take care. We watch apps that tell us where the regions are for, activity. One of the nights we did have to pack or we didn't have to pack, but one of the nights we came home and decided to pack bags because one was in an area close enough that if something happened overnight, we wanted to wake up and be prepared.

[00:59:01] Luckily, we packed our bags, we surrendered, and HP said, Nope, you're not going anywhere tonight. It's actually on my list of things to do to unpack that bag today and put it all back in the closet.

[00:59:11] it never ends. I think that's just a lesson because we don't know when natural disasters are going to strike and then in meetings, a lot of people have emotions and have reactions when the natural disasters or community events are happening.

[00:59:28] So we think about, is this an outside issue? And one of my sisters in program has said, Oh, I used to call my sponsor and go, Oh, I'm calling, but this isn't an Al Anon issue. And finally, her sponsor said, look, honey, everything is an Al Anon issue. Welcome to Al Anon. If you're living life and you're affected by people, places, or things, it's an Al Anon issue.

[00:59:49] Our reactionary thinking and behavior, Al Anon related tools can serve that. So I think that's been helpful too. We can only be so prepared. So we serenity prayer, we take the courage to prepare in the way that we can. And then we have the serenity to let go of the things that we cannot control. And that's ever present.

[01:00:10] One other thing I want to mention to you that has happened recently out of this work that I did, in ACA step one, part of it is looking at the family, the family tree, so to speak. So you map out your family and look at where the dysfunctional traits are.

[01:00:26] And in that activity, I had always I have my mom has a sister who has always been my favorite. And I always fantasized about being her family instead of my family.with the assumption that her family was way better than my family. I don't know if that's true or not. It's my fantasy and said, hey, I'm doing some emotional. and psychological work on myself. I have a few questions about your upbringing and my mom's upbringing. Can you shed some light on that? Would you be willing to talk about it? Anyway, she immediately said yes. We immediately, scheduled a phone call. Since then, she came over to my house and we sat and talked for a couple of hours and we have rekindled.

[01:01:09] We both talked about our relationship with our family and It's the same family. It has the same dysfunctional, stuff here. This is a family disease. she's born the brunt just like I have of my mom's, narcissist kind of behavior frequently. And I grew up thinking I was the only one and she dealt with it thinking she was the only one. And so I will say, just like fellowship in Al Anon, we're not the only one.

[01:01:41] I got this really beautiful experience of paying my Al Anon lessons forward to my aunt who is, in her 70s, doesn't have the same recovery kind of experience that I do. And I could look at her and go, that's not yours. I'm sorry that you had that experience. That's not yours. That's hers. And, if. If we can commune and we can get closer, that would be so amazing. And so we have, and it's just been really cool. It has been salve on my heart in a way that I really didn't. Imagine that's just a gift from my higher power. I never thought of that solution.

[01:02:19] Spencer: My higher power did, You never know. Do you?

[01:02:21] Heather C: no,

[01:02:22] Spencer: Right. Looking forward in the podcast, we're still in the middle of going through the steps. We're taking a little break here, but, we'll be back to the steps. Step eight coming up next. So we welcome your thoughts. You can join our conversation, leave a voicemail or send us an email with your feedback or questions, or if you want to sit down and talk about step eight with me. Let me know.

[01:02:44] Heather, how can people send us feedback?

[01:02:47] Heather C: you can send a voice memo or email to feedback at the recovery. show. Or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 7 3 4 7 0 7 8 7 9 5. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer. We'd love to hear from you, share your experience, strength and hope or your questions about today's topic or any of our upcoming topics. If you have a topic you'd like us to talk about, let us know.

[01:03:18] If you'd like advanced notice for some of our topics so that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback at the recovery dot show. Please put the quote email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.

[01:03:34] Spencer: Yeah. And of course our website is therecovery. show. We have all the information about the show, which is, as I say, mostly notes for each episode. Now that we're up in the four hundreds and, outnumber everything else. and in the show notes, there will be links to the books that, Heather read from.

[01:03:51] There will be videos for the music that she chose. And also on the website, you can find some links to other recovery podcasts and websites. All of that information about this episode is at therecovery. show slash 428.

Song 2

[01:04:06] Spencer: What is the second song you chose?

[01:04:09] Heather C: The second song I chose is You Can't Lose Me by Faith Hill. And I picked this one because I remember one of the periods of time that I spent time not talking to my parents. I was driving out in the early morning from California, leaving the state. I was doing a geographic, Boundary there and listening to the song, just bawling, talking about you, you can't lose me in the love of a parent.

[01:04:34] And I was telling myself, I don't have that poor me, I don't have that. And now when I listened to this song, I've really built this loving parent relationship with my higher power. And now I listen to this song as though my higher power is singing it to me and saying. You'll never lose me. I am always here with you and it just gives me so much solace.

Listener Feedback

[01:05:06] Spencer: We love to hear from you.

[01:05:08] I have email from Kerry who sent. a poem she wrote, titled Hurricane.

[01:05:15] You show up, a hurricane, I cannot think. You show up, a tornado, I fall to my knees. You show up, a whirling dervish of accusations. Proof, show me proof, you can't, you can't, ha! You fume, rage, spew, accuse.

[01:05:33] Hearts on sidewalks. Lungs on pavement. I want to find secret portals where I go back in time to ease your boy's heart and head. But you are not a boy anymore. You are a man. You are a man. You are a man. You are a man who for some time has been without a job, a place to live.

[01:05:54] None of it is your fault. None of it is your fault. None of it is your fault. Insert name of the last person who fucked you over. None of it is your fault.

[01:06:05] Your apologies come served with a But I'm sorry for how I acted but I don't have a crazy ex girlfriend anymore. I'm sorry for being selfish, but I was 17 and didn't care. You were 17 11 years ago

[01:06:21] I've heard parents cry. My 40 year old daughter wants to move home and I'm going to have to tell her No, we tried when she was 25 30 35 each time was a disaster My 51 year old son won't leave, and I have to change the locks. He's going to be so mad at me. I am scared of him. My 47 year old daughter is on life support. My 60 year old son got into a fight with my 80 year old husband. We lost one of our sons. I'm raising my grandchildren.

[01:06:54] I have seen the future. Handmaiden to chaos. No, I won't play dress up with you. No, I won't sign you up for anchor management. We raised you for 18 years and we put you through college and performed the whole laundry list of parental tasks that were never ending with you.

[01:07:10] Blah, blah, blah. Martyrdom is overrated. Martyrdom is boring. But that was on us, not you. We were so dumb. We knew better. We were the good parents. We knew better. We knew nothing.

[01:07:25] I want to nurture my own heart and head, but I can't create or think when chaos shows up. Wash my clothes. Charge my phone. Take me here. Drop me off. Make me a copy of my passport. Sorry about the window. Just five dollars. Just ten dollars. I'll pay you back. Can I have the car? I need the car. Give me the car or else. I'm just kidding. Geez, fine.

[01:07:47] I'm going to drop a pin so you can pick me up. I just need 30. Bring me 30 to the laundromat. Why not? Why not? Why not? Just find me and bring me my stuff. I'm here. I'm here. Where's my phone? Where's my mail? Where's my ABT card? I lost my phone again.

[01:08:04] Hey, I love you. Hey, I love you. Hey, I love you. I'll be back and there's nothing you can do about it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Drop a pin. Drop a pin. Drop a pin. Hey, I love you.

[01:08:17] Drop a pin. I'll be back and there's nothing you can do about it. You'd better drop the restraining order now. Drop a pin. You were the good parents. You knew better. You knew nothing. Drop a pin. Drop a pin. Drop a pin. Drop.

[01:08:37] Thank you, Kelly, for that window into the life of the parent of an addict. Thank you. Teal left us a voicemail.

[01:08:48] Teal: Hi there, Spencer. My name is Teal and I just listened to episode 203 and I find it super interesting that you involve our voices and our feedback and our opinion. So I just wanted to call and say thank you so much for putting together the recovery show and sharing your experiences.

[01:09:08] I am a adult child of an alcoholic, and in fact, actually too. My parents were divorced when I was three and my dad didn't talk about his alcoholism until a lot longer. I didn't find out until I was a young adult and my mother was the problem parent growing up, with all the typical erratic behaviors and, As Diana said when she was talking, the toddler on the highway, I don't know if Diana will ever hear this, but I just wanted to know that I really appreciate her talking about how she does her best and how she sets a limit and has made the choice to involve her mother still in her life, but for five minutes here or there, and to have those boundaries that are healthy, but because she's the only person in her mom's life, that's how I feel too, And I appreciate her talking about how the expectation is that there will be a relationship, but her mother same as mine will never be a mother to me. And it was just really helpful to hear that. So I'm going to be looking into the ACA and just continue to listen to your show, but just want to know that you're making a difference. So thank you so much.

[01:10:16] Spencer: Thank you, Teal, for sharing that. I hope you do find a program, and that it helps you, as it has helped so many of us.

[01:10:25] Episode 203 was titled Adult Children of Alcoholics. Emily was my guest for that episode. Kerry wrote again later. Hi Spencer, I heard Liz Coin on your show, and she was great. I shared it with my adult kids, who are siblings of an older brother still out there, which is hard to believe, but the truth.

[01:10:46] I wrote a middle grade novel for siblings everywhere who might be dealing with another sibling's struggles. I only was able to write it when I embraced my powerlessness. It's taken more of a decade, and honestly, longer than that.

[01:10:59] The book that Kerry wrote is titled Werewolf Hamlet, the story of Angus Gettlefinger, a fifth grade boy minding his own business, mostly, and living his fifth grade life, who would like his big brother, Liam, to start acting like a normal brother again. Preferably by Friday. It is available, on Amazon and it presumably at other outlets as well.

[01:11:20] I will leave an Amazon link in the show notes at the recovery. show slash 428.

[01:11:28] David wrote, hi, Spencer. I do not see any shows on being a service sponsor on your list of episodes. I have used one in my days of area service and have also served as a service sponsor to two others. Great idea, but one doesn't hear a lot about it, but it might be useful information for your show to put out there on.

[01:11:46] What is a service sponsor? How does a service sponsor differ from a regular sponsor? What service positions might benefit from using a service sponsor? What tools or materials does a service sponsor use? What should service sponsors not do? Are there members who have benefited from having a service sponsor, and if so, can they share their experience? Are there members who have been service sponsors, and what tips or suggestions and experience can they share as to what they find works well? Thanks to you in the show and all who have participated. David.thanks David for that suggestion. I can put that out to the collective.

[01:12:22] I have done service, but I actually have not had a separate service sponsor. I actually am acting as an informal service sponsor to a friend in program. Who's got a new service position that I used to have.so this could be interesting.

[01:12:39] We got a voicemail from Bart,

[01:12:43] Bart: hi. Yeah, my name is Bart I'm a volunteer and president with Mar-anon. And Mar-anon is a marijuana equivalent of Al Anon. So it's a 12 step program just like Al Anon, but instead of, alcohol, we, deal with people who have loved ones who have a cannabis use disorder, either in recovery from cannabis use disorder or not. Just like again, Al Anon, but again, for marijuana. And I'd be, happy to talk to someone about possibly, going on your podcast. Our website is Mar-anon. com. So it's M A R hypen A N O N.

[01:13:24] Spencer: Thank you Bart, and Bart is actually going to be appearing in, the next episode but one, episode 430, talking about Mar-anon with me. And that's it for today.

[01:13:37] Heather, again, thank you for joining me today for our conversation about your experience separating and I think recreating, to some extent, the relationship with your parents.

[01:13:51] Does that sound right?

[01:13:52] Heather C: Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah, I think, what helps me really is just really understanding the old thinking that I could fix this on my own and really getting clarity about the fact that this is way bigger than me. There's no way that I can fix this on my own. Maybe my higher power will take me, and guide me in a direction.

[01:14:16] And that remains to be seen. More will be revealed.

Song 3

[01:14:20] Spencer: which brings us to your third song. Okay.

[01:14:24] Heather C: Our last song selection is Higher Power by Coldplay, which you can listen to at therecovery. show slash 428. And I love the lyrics of this song. It starts off with sometimes I just can't take it, but it really goes. Through the process of reminding me, I have a higher power. It's all right. It's all right.

[01:14:47] I've have a higher power. It's repetitive, but really it just takes me back. When for so long, I've been down on my knees and then your love song saved me over and over. I have a higher power. It's beautiful.

Outro

[01:15:07] Spencer: Thank you for listening. Please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you are facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding, love, and peace grow in you one day at a time.