Intro

[00:00:01] Shannon: you have always been allowed to love yourself, but maybe nobody's ever told you that before and maybe that's uncomfortable but just keep coming back,

[00:00:10] Spencer: Welcome to episode 422 of The Recovery Show.

[00:00:14] This episode is brought to you by Talcott, Gina, Carolyn, Marcy, Linda, Raquel, and Tony. They used the donation button on our website. Thank you, Talcott, Gina, Carolyn, Marcy, Linda, Raquel, and Tony for your generous contributions. This episode is for you.

[00:00:32] We are friends and family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can. So much depends on our own attitudes and we believe the change to attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:49] Shannon: Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show, we represent ourselves, rather than any 12 step program. During the show, we will share our own experiences. the opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:01:10] Spencer: My name is Spencer. I'm your host today and joining me today is Shannon. Welcome to The Recovery Show, Shannon.

[00:01:17] Shannon: Thank you. Great to be here.

Loving ourselves

[00:01:19] Spencer: You brought a reading to open our conversation today. What is it?

[00:01:23] Shannon: I was thumbing through my, readers and found something that really spoke to me from Hope for Today. the Al Anon Daily Reader, page 34. February 3rd.

[00:01:34] When I was a baby, my grandfather gave me a plush toy chimpanzee. As I grew up, my parents often told me that my grandfather had given me the chimpanzee because he thought it looked just like me. I became self conscious about my looks, especially my long upper lip and big ears. I believe myself to be as ugly as that stuffed chimp.

[00:01:55] Years later, as I worked on my fourth step using Al Anon's blueprint for progress, I faced this question. Can I accept my physical appearance? Even after years of recovery in the program, my answer was still no. At first I was embarrassed by my lack of self acceptance. Then I became angry and resentful of my alcoholic family members for their cruel remarks. My sponsor suggested what I considered an odd route to self love. She asked me to embrace my toy chimp, which, like me, had miraculously survived my childhood.

[00:02:30] She told me to surround it with love. I thought it was a crazy idea, but I did it anyway. I set it on my dresser where I could see it during the day and I slept with it at night. In due time, that ugly chimp started to look beautiful to me. I began to treasure the worn but still smiling face that is always happy to see me.

[00:02:49] The features I once thought hideously distorted, now seem in perfect proportion. Today, I love myself as I love that toy. I now believe the only real ugliness that exists in me lies in my attitudes. Acceptance changes everything. The thought for the day is how ready and willing am I today to invite the transforming power of acceptance into my will and my life?

[00:03:15] And then a quote from Blueprint for Progress . Al Anon offers us a new beginning. We can learn to accept ourselves and become willing to change our attitudes for the better.

[00:03:26] Spencer: What led you to pick this reading?

[00:03:30] Shannon: a couple things. it first spoke to me because,when I was really little, one of my first memories was that, somebody on my birthday, one of my uncles that I love very much, sang Happy Birthday to you, happy birthday to you. You look like a monkey and you smell like one, too.

[00:03:44] Spencer: I remember that version of the song, yes.

[00:03:47] Shannon: I lost it and I ran upstairs and was crying and it was such a. this uncle loves me and, you know, my family always repeats that like, oh, so hilarious.

[00:03:57] so I, think, as children, we, are very impressionable with these things. So it spoke to me anyway, because that's one of my core memories,

[00:04:05] Spencer: And his response was, but I was just teasing.

[00:04:08] Shannon: Oh my gosh, totally. Yeah, that's exactly what he said. Yeah.

[00:04:11] Spencer: Yeah.

[00:04:12] Shannon: Initially that's what's jumped out at me, from the book. But,I thought it was so moving. It just broke my heart, this little child given this toy that maybe he or she was attached to, and then hearing this cruel story. it just breaks your heart.

[00:04:28] And it focuses on physical appearance for that person. But to me, the message is anything we might feel shame about or want to hide away from other people.

[00:04:39] and for me, it's never a set or stable characteristic. For me, my kind of shame or, things I want to hide is anything that I don't think whoever I'm with at the time, would appreciate it would be in alignment with.

[00:04:55] Take your pick. Is it that, I, I don't have the right job or I'm not well read enough or I'm not from the right place or something.

[00:05:03] Spencer: Yeah. All those things.

[00:05:05] All those things.

[00:05:07] Am I doing it right? Oh my god, that's such a hard one.

[00:05:12] there was something not directly related to the topic, but I just, my sponsor suggested that I embrace my toy chimp. I'm like, I don't know if I ever would have thought of that as a sponsor. Like where does this sponsor get this wisdom. So now II have that tool. if I'm ever in that situation, I can say, why don't you embrace your toy champ? The real question is how can I Get a new perspective on re think, re something, a negative view of myself, right?

[00:05:46] Shannon: yeah, or,can I change that adjective around?

[00:05:49] Because really, are chimps ugly? And are big ears ugly? And if I

[00:05:54] actually look a bit like that

[00:05:55] chimp, is that actually such a bad thing? And maybe that's what the sponsor was doing is, if you can look at this image with love,

[00:06:03] because there is that kind of Buddhist.

[00:06:06] thought that there is no good, there is no bad, there is no right, there is no wrong. Can we challenge what's right, what's wrong, what's good, and

[00:06:15] what's bad? Because if something is making us feel bad about ourselves. Can we reframe something that is intrinsically a part of us that might not be so bad?

[00:06:26] Yeah. There, there are things that are hard to change that maybe we don't like. particularly having to do with physical appearance, but also various abilities. I always felt much of my life that I couldn't sing , which I think I meant. that I was not always in tune. When I came back to church in the same year that I came into Al Anon, and that probably was not a coincidence, discovered that I enjoyed singing along with the rest of the congregation when we would sing hymns, And one day I was standing next to somebody who was in the choir and she complimented me on my singing. And it's like this fact that I knew about myself was apparently not a fact.And I still don't always sing quite on key, but I enjoy it a whole lot more.yeah, there's an example, Yeah, that was a gift.

[00:07:34] Spencer: Yeah. I like to ask new guests on the show, if it's relevant to what we're talking about, to just tell me a little bit about how you got to this recovery program.

[00:07:47] Shannon: I was handed Courage to Change, one of the Daily Readers, years before I went into a meeting,from a friend whose husband, subsequently gave up alcohol. I don't know why she chose to give it to me. And I didn't really know anything about the program,

[00:08:04] but, our husbands are.

[00:08:06] Very, good friends. And my husband is my qualifier. So I think she did know what she was doing, but, yeah, I just, I really liked the readings. I really liked the messaging. I really liked the vibe and I religiously read this Courage to Change. and then my husband decided to give up, and start going to AA in February of 2021. And I thought, I'll support you and I'll go to Al Anon.

[00:08:32] Because if you're going to do that, I guess that's what the husbands do and the wives go to Al Anon. So I'll go do that. yeah. So I just kind of smugly did that, like, I mean, he's just doing so well. I'm just here, it's just, it's great.

[00:08:44] And I was pretty, I went regularly because I was quite emotional about it, realizing that, our son was, like, one and he had, he'd missed a lot of His first year because of drinking, but I was grateful that he'd given up when he did. But, yeah, I was just smugly being his almost wingman

[00:09:04] until I realized, oh, recovery isn't really a straight line for him.

[00:09:09] And then I just completely, did all of the crazy things. Bought the breathalyzer,

[00:09:17] Spencer: Which is not necessarily a bad thing to have, but

[00:09:20] Shannon: It was a useful tool,

[00:09:22] Spencer: if you're using it to try to manage his drinking, that's where it's that, I don't remember what adjective you actually use there. Crazy or something. Behavior, right?

[00:09:31] Shannon: Unmanageable. and crazy.

[00:09:34] Spencer: yeah. so you had been living with his drinking for a while, at that point.

[00:09:41] Shannon: Yes, knowing that it was probably, not great. It wasn't healthy, but it was something that we did together.

[00:09:48] so that was the thing. And then, I got pregnant and had a baby and then my relationship with alcohol completely changed.

[00:09:54] and I had my son in February of 2020. So his relationship with alcohol with a newborn over lockdown, completely, really gained momentum. It helped really take it up a notch

[00:10:09] for

[00:10:09] him. Yeah, helped in air quotes.

[00:10:13] Spencer: You were in Al Anon, it sounds like he relapsed? Yeah.

[00:10:20] Shannon: and then I got serious about this whole thing. and then I established a home because a lot of my groups were online, cause it was really 2021, I did it, but I didn't feel, personal attachment with really any of the groups, even though I liked the vibe.

[00:10:35] But now here we are nearly four years later, and I have a really strong home group. I, have weekly meetings with what I call them my step fourettes. So there's three of us ladies who do the blueprint for progress book.and we are working it really slowly. Like we get through maybe two questions a week,

[00:10:56] Spencer: but it's great. It's just a really nice, little add on to, to HomeGroup. So that's what I do and, my husband's now active in AA himself. it's still a,journey and not necessarily a straight line. You wrote to me, said you'd be interested in doing a podcast episode. And I said, well, you have a particular topic you'd like to talk about. And you said, how about self love? And I thought, oh, that's a really important thing for a lot of us. Whether we started out that way, or whether we were beaten down into it by our interaction with the disease, many of us, I think, came into the program feeling definitely less than, feeling incapable, feeling unlovable, maybe. I know one of the things that I kept hearing, even early in my time in program, was about learning to love myself, learning to take care of myself. And that may be where the first steps towards loving myself come was that like for you?

[00:12:05] Shannon: Oh, I don't know why I so quickly came up with this topic because it's the most uncomfortable one for me. I totally don't have this one nailed at all. So

[00:12:13] I'm,

[00:12:14] Spencer: good.

[00:12:15] Shannon: Before I, came into recovery, I wouldn't know the difference between self love and like self care. And I think, self care became a kind of buzz phrase, I don't know, what a handful of years ago, hashtag self care. And, photographs of people doing their nails or like,shopping or having cocktails a lot of times, oh, I'm treating myself to a glass of wine.

[00:12:36] and I thought that was what it was. Coincidentally, or not ironically, I live in the UK, but I still don't really understand irony. So I won't use the word ironically, but one of my, Service positions in my home group is that I choose the topic for the week and I put it on a WhatsApp group in the beginning of the day so people can mull something over and then by the time we get to the evening meeting, people have something to say on the topic.

[00:13:02] And I suggested self love, after reading. something about it, but I couldn't make the meeting. And everybody from the group was like, that was the best meeting. And there were so many breakthroughs and I was like, ah, darn it. Missed it. so I think maybe I was trying to get that meeting back by suggesting sting it.

[00:13:23] Spencer: let's see what we can do about it. There's only two of us, though.

[00:13:27] Shannon: No pressure.

[00:13:28] Spencer: No pressure. Did you hear messages about loving yourself, when you started coming? Or do you even remember if you heard those messages?

[00:13:38] Shannon: I remember hearing a lot of things that I didn't listen to. I've done therapy, and I love therapy, and when I can afford it, I have no problem, seeing a therapist once a week. I think it's great. at the moment, I don't really have the time or money, sadly. but that's something therapists would always say, and I always found it a bit schmaltzy, and a bit like, I don't know how to explain it.

[00:14:03] If I heard any messaging around it in, in the rooms, in the Al Anon program, I didn't listen to it. It didn't apply to me. And it made me feel, like really uncomfortable. like that's incredibly personal. And I don't really know what you're talking about, and a lot of times therapists would probably say that to me, like trying to dig into that a bit.

[00:14:26] And I'd be able to very easily brush that off with some sort of self care retort. Or the other thing that is confusing to me is that I have confidence, but that's not always the same thing as a very nice voice talking to myself. That's, something that I'm learning that just because, sometimes I know my value and I have confidence, but that doesn't mean the things I say to myself are very nice.

[00:14:57] Spencer: so I was thinking about this, and I was like, what does loving yourself look like? And of course, it might be easier, at least for me, to start with, what does not loving myself look like? A big part of that is self talk. What do I say to myself on a moment to moment, hour to hour, day to day basis?

[00:15:20] What kind of messages do I convey to myself? I often use that kind of exercise when I'm thinking about abstract concepts like, what are my values? how do I act? What do those actions say about what I value? How do I act towards myself? And what do those actions say about how much I like or don't like or love or hate myself? then maybe I can go back and say, how did I treat myself pre recovery? One of the answers to that is in relation to the other people in my life is that I often put their needs above mine. This is one aspect of my codependency at least. And particularly with respect to active alcoholism back then, the most important thing in some ways, was to deal with that, to fix that, to to control it. And in the process of doing that, I was in many ways severely neglecting myself and perhaps, deprecating myself. What does it say about how I feel about myself? it obviously says I'm not as important as this other thing. And if I'm not as important, then I'm not acting in a loving way towards myself. Right? I started to hear Take care of yourself. Stop care taking other people. I've said this one before, but this one just so struck me. sometime in my early recovery, probably within the first year, one of the people in the meeting talked about, she liked to go to movies. Her husband didn't like to go to movies, and she realized she could go to movies by herself.he didn't have to come. And I was like, wait, what? I like to go to live music. My wife mostly doesn't. she likes music, but the actual going and being in a place with other people and there's noise and so on and so forth that she doesn't like. So,she doesn't want to go. And I was like, I could go, I could just go, I could do this for me.

[00:17:42] Shannon: Mind blown.

[00:17:44] Spencer: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Mind blown. Oh my God. Really? Yeah. As we've both grown in our recovery, we have things we do together and we have things that we do separately and that turns out to be okay. Who knew?

[00:18:04] Shannon: Also, just great general marriage advice, because you

[00:18:07] can't find, nobody is supposed to be everything. It's just impossible. It's

[00:18:11] an unrealistic expectation.

[00:18:13] Spencer: my wife has started saying to herself, when she makes a mistake when she messes up something. She says, good human ing. She said, good human ing, Amy.And I'm like, yeah. Like, recognize that I am human.

[00:18:36] Shannon: Yeah, that's really good.

[00:18:38] Spencer: It's okay to be human.

[00:18:40] Shannon: I'm going to totally take that. Do you think she'll mind?

[00:18:42] Spencer: I think she would love it to hear that somebody else has taken that.

[00:18:46] And she might have, she probably got it from somebody. I don't know. she's got, Her recovery program, right?

[00:18:51] Which is not mine. So if you think about how has your love of yourself, your liking of yourself changed in that perspective, in the way in which you act towards yourself.

[00:19:07] Can you see some of that?

[00:19:10] Shannon: I can, yes, it's happening slowly, but surely. And there's a couple of things. there's getting serious about, making my relationship with my higher power, something that is, important to me and,is a priority. and trying to understand what that is and having daily contact with the universe.

[00:19:32] it's my most comfortable language, that I kind of check in hopefully at least twice a day, but you know, it doesn't come naturally yet. At one point I was trying so hard to see this, what is this thing that can help me, that I can just hand over, because I don't understand how I can just hand over stuff to something I don't understand, like how do I trust this thing that isn't visible or I don't understand, so I was trying, trying, trying, and then as they say, when you stop trying, just like when you're trying to remember a word or something, then all of a sudden I was at a yoga class and we were doing this pose, which I think it's called the ballet dancer or the bird or something, but basically you're standing on one leg. And we happen to be facing a mirror, and you you lean over, you reach a hand out in front of you, and you reach a hand behind you, and you look forward and you try to balance. So I'm leaning forward. And the way to balance when you're standing on one foot is you put your eyes on a spot on the wall that helps you not to wobble. And the place where I found to look at was directly in my own eyes. And I just started crying because I just saw this image of myself with my hand reaching out to myself.

[00:20:46] And I was just like, I am there for myself. Maybe that's my higher power. Is that me? Is that me? Am I that? Is that? That was, I think the start of a sort of self love because I was like, I can trust myself. I am right here. I'm just right here. I'm right here. Can you see me?

[00:21:07] Spencer: love that..

[00:21:09] Shannon: I'm getting this sort of little bit of choking up in my throat just from your description.

[00:21:14] I got really teary at the moment in the yoga class. And then I tried to recapture it and take a picture of it and make a bookmark because I'm like I need to remember this moment and on my phone I need to delete it because if anybody ever finds this picture of me leaning towards myself looking at myself in the eyes and oh my god it's just it's too funny but but you can't but I think I'll always remember that hopefully in my mind's eye if not in bookmark form.

[00:21:45] Spencer: Wow. What do you call it? Visioning is not the word I want. What is it?

[00:21:51] Shannon: Visualization,

[00:21:53] Spencer: visualization. Yeah. it's a little bit of the old act as if,But in a different way, I don't know. I'm trying to turn it into words and I'm not having a very good success

[00:22:06] Shannon: It's like me trying to turn it into a photograph.

[00:22:09] That was one of those epiphany moments that you hear about. And that, that was what started to get me to be like, okay, wait, okay, there is something there. And so maybe I need to invest in this person. But the thing that has actually been the most self love that I've done is pretty much stopping drinking myself.

[00:22:29] For a few reasons. Before I met my husband, I liked to have a drink for sure. But that became something we did a heck of a lot together, like more than I probably wanted to, but I would do it because that was what we did. and I would feel terrible the next day. And we'd waste the whole, I think everybody knows the routine there.

[00:22:50] Alcohol is basically a poison. And I still do like a drink now and then, like a glass of wine. But I think, that has been such a big thing in terms of self love, because it means that it opens up so many other things. That voice that's not very nice is freaking strong if I've had a lot to drink the night before.

[00:23:13] Spencer: So not while you're drinking, but in the aftermath. You're like, why did I do that? That was so stupid. I shouldn't have done That, that that kind of talk.

[00:23:25] Shannon: hangxiety,

[00:23:27] Spencer: Anxiety. I don't think I've heard that term. Yeah.

[00:23:32] There are other activities, for example, I can spend literally hours going down a YouTube rabbit hole late at night. It's another one of these, do it and regret it in the morning things, but it's like, you know, why, why did you do that?

[00:23:48] Why did you need to do that? You didn't need to do that. and other adjectives, about my intelligence and so on that,might come up in that self talk. I can recognize that yeah, I'm human, I don't always do things that are in my best interest. I'm okay. I, hopefully, at least, enjoyed whatever videos I was watching.

[00:24:12] Shannon: Yeah, you know, I think on top of anxiety, the other thing that it was doing, especially before I had my son, was there'd be things I would want to do the next day or, whatever things I wanted, would want to do that evening. And I would want to say no, but because I worked in a very social business, I found it very hard to turn down an invitation.

[00:24:35] Because I didn't want them to stop inviting me.and that was, because I wanted their friendship and I wanted work out of it. But, but now, when I have new friends, I'm very hesitant to go for that first drink with them. Because I love kind of peer friendships now, where, oh, we've actually never sat down and had a drink together.

[00:24:59] Because Once I introduce that, then I find it very hard to say no, even if I don't want to do it, if that makes sense.

[00:25:08] Spencer: okay. I'm gonna say a question here, and it's not the right question exactly that I want to say, but how do you now, interrupt negative self talk?

[00:25:20] Shannon: Um

[00:25:22] Spencer: Okay. let me ask a different question. When is it most likely to happen?

[00:25:27] Shannon: When I've made a mistake, at the moment, it's a lot around work, because. I had a career change around the same time that my son was born four years ago. and I had this career change during COVID. So I basically built up my clients and my, and I learned, and all my training was done at home.

[00:25:47] So I don't see anybody. I work in this tiny, box room as they call it here. and so if I don't really give myself that much grace. although my career is, I've, I'm doing well, really. But if I mess up something, or I'm not quite as good as it, at it, as I would like to be, I very quickly catastrophize and say, we're gonna be homeless.

[00:26:09] This is never gonna last. And I, I've recently been,just surrounding myself in listening to people who, say really nice things to me and believe them, and remind myself that people who care about me have said when I've confided in them, this very vulnerable thing.

[00:26:30] And, because like I, I said, I come across as having confidence. I think people that I talk to are always surprised. So they immediately say, but you did it, but you're, you're very

[00:26:40] talented or whatever. And so I try to replace. My own critical voice with one of these friends who care about me.

[00:26:48] Or my dad. Or my mom. They're both very encouraging.

[00:26:52] Spencer: As they should be. ,

[00:26:53] Shannon: Eh. Which is their job.

[00:26:55] Spencer: it's their job. It's absolutely their

[00:26:57] Shannon: It's, yeah.

[00:26:59] Spencer: but also to,call you on it when They think you're

[00:27:04] Shannon: Yes. Which I think my dad's pretty good at. Oh, Shannon, not again.

[00:27:09] Spencer: By, by rephrasing the question, I actually got you to answer the first question,

[00:27:12] Shannon: that voice when, mm hmm.

[00:27:16] Spencer: guess a few hundred times. Wow. that's just that blows my mind because I'm like, I, and here's my negative self talk. One of the places in which I have negative self talk these days is I am not back to a podcast every week. You know, what's wrong with you, Spencer? Why can't you do this? Why can't you get back on a regular schedule? Especially since I'm not working eight hours a day anymore. I should have all this time. One of the tools that has helped is when I'm like, Yeah, I need to get going on this, as I reach out to people like you who've said I would like to record an episode or I put out to the email list, here's a topic I'm looking for somebody who'd like to talk about this topic.

[00:28:07] Shannon: Right now we're doing the steps. Because one, that gives me some energy, I'm not doing it all by myself. And two, it gives me a commitment. Okay. So you signed up for a time and I'm like, I got to be there.You figured out the workarounds. You found

[00:28:29] ways to make yourself accountable by putting that in other people's hands.

[00:28:33] Spencer: And when I do that, that gives me a feeling of success. Yeah, it gives me energy and it gives me a feeling of success, which helps to reduce the, you're failing at this message that I can so easily give myself. I've only been doing this for 12 years. I'm clearly failing at it.

[00:28:53] Shannon: And doing it all by yourself, pretty much.

[00:28:56] Spencer: Yes. I don't have a producer. I don't have an editor. It's all me.

[00:29:00] Shannon: Or promotions, a marketing team.

[00:29:03] Spencer: Well, my marketing team is people like you.

[00:29:05] Shannon: About this negative self talk, that voice that's telling you you're not successful, but somebody else who's done, not as much as you've done might have a voice saying something completely different. I think when it comes around work and achievements, I think as humans, we are wired to be ambitious and definitely as Americans, I think we are.

[00:29:28] Speaking from my own personal experience and I think maybe there's a little bit of you can do anything you set your mind to, you can have it all. And I've, and I know that I get that kind of, critical voice when I'm not nailing it with picking my son up on time and doing something fun with him and baking and, creating a compost heap in the garden and, ah, becoming more sustainable, stop using plastic.

[00:29:53] and I have a, voice in my head that is holding me up to this perfectionist standard. I guess it's, how do we turn around to that voice and be like, Who made you the Voice,

[00:30:05] Voice,

[00:30:06] Spencer: Stop being, stop. I'm, I can do less and not be lazy.

[00:30:11] Yes. Yes. Oh my God. Yes. Oh, there's the should word coming around again.I really should be doing this and I really should be doing that. start shoulding all over myself, as they say. Which is one of the reasons I try to not use that word when I'm talking about myself, unless it's like, Hey, I should make dinner, you know,that probably is okay to say. But, I should be more compassionate.

[00:30:45] Whatever that means.

[00:30:47] so yeah, let me get back to my notes. When do you still have negative self talk? You wrote, when do I not? But, the question that I would ask in response to that is, Is there less?

[00:31:00] Shannon: Do you know what? There is and at the moment, my Step 4ettes and I,

[00:31:05] shout out to the Step 4ettes, we're doing, shame and it's not super comfortable, but something that I was explaining to them, this week when we were working on it was that what I've managed to start capturing before it grows into a flame are these little electric shocks of guilt and shame and crap that, I can't really explain what they are aside from that. It is like an electric current where, I used to have it a lot when I would wake up in the morning and I would instantly feel bad and I would search my brain for what I had to feel bad about myself.

[00:31:44] What have I done wrong? What have I done wrong? what did I not do yesterday? What's going to be bad about today? And now they still come and there'll be this little thing and instead of chasing this like firefly of I don't know, bad vibes towards myself, I can recognize it and I can decide not to, explore that further.

[00:32:04] I can decide that could just be. an electrical impulse.

[00:32:09] And that is not something that I have to hang on to. On a good day when I'm well rested and hydrated.

[00:32:17] Spencer: Yeah. How about at three in the morning?

[00:32:20] Shannon: Luckily, I've been very, I have a, I have an amazing child who has always been really good at sleeping. And in the middle of the night, I've started talking to my higher power and having a very casual conversation like, can you just take this one? I know I hand you all the crap and I get all the good stuff, but can you take this one too?

[00:32:41] Because I really need to get some sleep and you're still awake. So

[00:32:48] what else are you going to do? Just think on

[00:32:49] this a little bit. Mm

[00:32:52] Spencer: Yeah. I try to do that. It doesn't always work, but then I try to remember to do it again. you asked this question earlier about, how do I give stuff to this thing? I don't know what it is. One of the things that helps me is that evidence that when I have been able to do that, things have worked out,

[00:33:16] Shannon: Hmm.

[00:33:17] Spencer: the catastrophe It never happened.

[00:33:20] Shannon: Right.

[00:33:21] Spencer: We were never homeless living in our car under a bridge, okay? Never happened.

[00:33:27] Shannon: That would be hard. However real that felt in my brain at 3 in the morning 20 years ago, it never happened.

[00:33:33] Mm hmm.

[00:33:35] Spencer: and the evidence of that, to be able to say, yeah, I felt this way. It didn't happen. This is another time when I'm worried about something happening in the world and it is not something I have any control over. Certainly lying in my bed at three in the morning.

[00:33:54] Shannon: Yes.

[00:33:55] Spencer: let's just put that one aside for now.

[00:33:59] Shannon: But when I put it aside and this is for me, I can't just put it aside.

[00:34:03] Like I have to replace that thought with something because my brain wants to keep going. Replacing it with a gratitude, replacing it with something that's going well, replacing it with, Hey, I'm lying here. My bed is comfortable. I'm under the covers. I'm warm.whatever it is, it could be something really tiny like that,also helps with the let go part for me.I dip in and out of being diligent with my morning meditation, but I have definitely been through a lot of different apps and things, guided meditations. And there was one thing like,a loving kindness meditation. I think you start with somebody that you love the most, who is, it's very easy to,

[00:34:50] give love and kindness to, and you say something loving and, generous and protective, you know, to my son. may you be happy, may you be healthy, may you be protected, and may

[00:35:00] you be safe, and all these things, the very easy with my son, very easy with my husband, very easy with, my family, who's far away.

[00:35:09] but then you gradually, through this meditation, end up giving loving kindness to the person who's challenged, or the idea that's challenging the most, and this is what I am currently working on, with the political situation, all over the world really, because I have to offer grace and loving kindness to people whose actions I feel challenged by.

[00:35:33] because I That's all I can do in that situation.

[00:35:37] Spencer: Yeah, Hating them only hurts me. Heheheheheheh!

[00:35:41] Shannon: them to all of a sudden agree with me, weirdly.

[00:35:45] Spencer: No! No, it doesn't.

[00:35:48] Especially when it's happening in the quiet of my own mind, right?

[00:35:51] Shannon: no. So if I just wish, and I think what you were saying about, that is also really good advice, about if you lay there and I think another, a good thing that I think about is feel like the cool air. in the room, and like the weight of the blanket,

[00:36:06] and things like that is

[00:36:09] Spencer: Whatever it is that makes you or me feel comforted and held and safe.

[00:36:20] When I can focus on those things, I will generally get back to sleep a lot more quickly than when perseverating about something that's wrong in the world, or in my life,

[00:36:33] or might be wrong in my life.

[00:36:35] Shannon: Yeah,

[00:36:36] in a few years.

[00:36:37] Spencer: Ah, those are the worst, right?

[00:36:39] Oh my god, the stock market's going to tank and we won't have any money and, catastrophizing again. No.

[00:36:45] Shannon: Yes,

[00:36:46] Spencer: would you say to somebody who is brand new in recovery? And really struggling with this idea of loving themselves or even just liking themselves.

[00:37:01] Shannon: I think that Newcomers, can very quickly get overwhelmed by maybe the language or the, um, you know, it's a gentle program, but there are procedures and there's ways that meetings are run. I think when I started coming, maybe I thought people sounded institutionalized, the way that people would talk the same and say things like, they would all say, I was on my knees when I came into the rooms and I was just like, huh, I'll never say that. I think that the people, they're not all saying the same thing because they feel exactly the same way, but people can use similar words to get across a similar idea of a certain phase in their recovery in their lives.

[00:37:45] I, think all of those details can, possibly be off putting or intimidating or just confusing in the beginning. And I just think that It is such an amazing program and actually, self love is at the heart of this program, I think, for Al Anon. And I think that it feels uncomfortable because it's maybe the first time you've been given permission to explore this thing that is your right.

[00:38:17] Yeah, this has always been your right. You have always been allowed to love yourself, but maybe nobody's ever told you that before and maybe that's uncomfortable but just keep coming back, keep trying a different meeting, keep try an online meeting, do some of these readings at home.

[00:38:34] Like I said, I was reading one of the Al Anon readers for years before I went to a meeting. We end our home meeting with standing up and saying the Serenity Prayer together and saying all together, keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it. and I just never really heard it before.

[00:38:53] And newcomers are always like, when we do that, they're like, Oh, what?

[00:38:59] Spencer: Yeah, you're worth it. Yeah.

[00:39:01] Shannon: you're worth it. And this program that we've stumbled into all of us from all different walks of life that we've found, and that has been going for what, 60 years.

[00:39:11] Spencer: I think roughly 1950 so that's more like 70 years.

[00:39:19] Shannon: amazing that it's been refined to such a point that, I use it as a template over every part of my life, how I parent, how I react at work, how I react with my friends. And when I'm doing it, it's such a gift, so alcoholism is the, it's that, the oddest thing that you hear and,Al Anon Circles is that having the alcoholic in my life is a great gift because he brought me, into Al Anon. And it's a program that anybody, if you can, try to understand it a bit and engage with it, it is a tremendous act of self love.

[00:39:53] Spencer: Oh, boy. This has been so much fun.

[00:39:56] Shannon: Yeah, it's been great.

[00:39:58] Spencer: After a short break, we will continue with “Our Lives in Recovery”, where we talk about how recovery is working in our daily lives. But first, I'm going to ask you about some of the songs you brought.

Song 1

[00:40:09] Spencer: What's the first one?

[00:40:10] Shannon: The first song that I thought about for the theme of self love is, a song from The Greatest Showman, the film, which my son absolutely loves and watches on repeat and wants to hear all the songs over and over again. and there's a song by the kind of bearded lady character, played by Keala Settle.

[00:40:34] and the song is written by Benj Pasek and Justin Paul and Rob Mathis. The song is called, This Is Me, and in the film, it comes at a point where they don't let the kind of, crazy circus folk into this proper opera ball concert thing. That they're like, they're the outcasts, even though they're the ones that kind of built this circus performance, but they're not allowed to be seen there because they're embarrassing. And so they come out and they sing the song and they kind of stomp through the streets. So to me, this is the most current song for me in terms of self love because it's something that I want to get across to my son.

[00:41:15] I want him to feel like this, nobody's gonna. tell you can't be somewhere. this is me. Some of the lyrics are, I'm not a stranger to the dark. Hide away, they say, because we don't want your broken parts. I've learned to be ashamed of all my scars. Run away, they say, no one will love you as you are.

[00:41:34] And then it turns around to, I am brave, I am bruised, I am who I'm meant to be, this is me. Look out, because here I come, and it's just a total fight song. It's a great one to really belt in the car.

[00:41:49]

Our Lives in Recovery

[00:41:59] Spencer: In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery. How have we experienced recovery recently? And I'll go ahead and talk a little here. As we're recording this, it's mid November. I don't know exactly when the episode's going to come out. See previous discussion about how well I'm doing at publishing episodes.

[00:42:15] But it's mid November and my brother and sister were here last weekend and one of my sons, for an early U. S. Thanksgiving celebration. And you're like, why did you do it two weeks early, Spencer? Well, we started this actually last year, when my brother and sister and, and the kids wanted to come for Thanksgiving.

[00:42:39] We wanted them to come for Thanksgiving. Let's do a big Thanksgiving. We used to go to my parents house and then, you know, my parents died. So we don't go there anymore, right? So we said, hey, we'll host. I live in Ann Arbor, Michigan. The University of Michigan is here. Thanksgiving weekend the University of Michigan football team has a match with the Ohio State University football team.

[00:43:02] It's like the big rivalry going back over a hundred years. The town gets kind of full of people when it's here. And last year it was going to be here. And we're like, well, you can't come Thanksgiving weekend. There's no hotel rooms. And the ones that there are, are horrendously expensive. So why don't you come the week before, when there's no football game happening.

[00:43:24] So last year they came the week before. This year, they could come Thanksgiving weekend, but traveling that weekend is kind of a mess. Because everybody else in the U. S. is traveling that weekend, so it seems. So we did it two weeks early, and it was very nice, but you know, it's, it's family. I get along pretty well with my brother and sister. I get along pretty well with the son who came, but still it's family and things come up.

[00:43:51] I don't actually have specific things. It's more of just an attitude that I was able to keep of whatever happens is what was supposed to happen, and it's going to be good, and it's going to be fine. My brother and sister and I went to the Detroit Institute of Art, the first day they were here because my son was driving that day. Wouldn't be here till late in the evening as it happened. We had no real goals other than let's go and look at some art. It wasn't like, oh my god, we have to try to see the whole thing, which is not possible in a few hours, unless you're just zoom, zoom, zoom, zoom, zoom, not really looking at anything.

[00:44:32] Shannon: Mm

[00:44:33] Spencer: We didn't have to stay together. We just said, okay, we'll meet back up at this location at this time, and maybe a couple of us will go see something together, and maybe not.

[00:44:44] Miracle of modern technology when I found a painting of an artist that's been on our mind recently because our parents had a couple paintings by him. And there was one right there in the museum. And I, took a picture of it with my phone and I texted them and said, Hey, guess which German expressionist artist this is?

[00:45:04] And my sister came running. She's where is it? Where is it? You know? I mean, it was just fun. And then we're like, okay, we're all tired. We're going to go to a brew pub and have a beer and then we're going to go home and, we didn't have to have these real hard goals, So many times in the past we're like, well, we got to do this and we got to do that.

[00:45:25] We got to do that. And you know, it's like, no, we're just going to take it easy. I think that's something that has come to me from relaxing all the shoulds in my life that has come as part of a result of working a recovery program.

[00:45:39] Things like acceptance and I talk about acceptance a lot. It's been huge in my life. Okay. High pressure holidays can be, cooking pot for resentments and strife. And we just,

[00:45:54] Shannon: yeah.

[00:45:56] Spencer: Didn't let it happen. It was great. So, that's what I'm thinking about at the moment.

[00:46:02] Shannon: if you're putting this out before Christmas, then, people will probably take it. That's a lot for people to be able to benefit from,

[00:46:12] I'm taking a lot out of what you just said because, we, my husband and I and our little guy are going to go to the States for Christmas and we're staying for two weeks with my sister.

[00:46:24] yeah, and my parents will be there, and I have a big birthday on the 31st of December. So I've got some other family coming in, which I'm super excited about, but, what resonates is maybe what you didn't exactly say, but what I heard was, the expectations and disappointment and the boiling pot of resentments or potential resentments.

[00:46:47] We all come into it with different expectations, but also even if we all, got on the phone and talked about our expectations, what is in our mind's eye, we can't fully articulate to the other person, not because we're trying to keep, but it's just really, it's just part of who we are, like what we're bringing to the table.

[00:47:05] And, yeah. And after a certain amount of time, here they call Christmas Crimbo sometimes. And so now they're calling, in the UK, the period between Christmas and New Year, they're calling it Nimbo. So like you're in no man's land. And like the hardest part of Christmas when you're staying with family is the Nimbo.

[00:47:30] All I can do is work on my own expectations or lack thereof and just focus on, it'll be just really amazing to see, my niece and nephew, my sister, my brother, Oh yeah, all of the people who I love. but you weren't asking about my trip back to America.

[00:47:47] Spencer: I mean, how is recovery working in your life, you know, recently? I mean, that is going to be part of it, isn't it?

[00:47:54] Shannon: at the moment my husband travels a lot for work, so I am not a single mother, but I operate sometimes as a single mother. I can't go to meetings all the time.

[00:48:03] my service, is, I try to do as much as I can, I think I mentioned I, I choose the topic for my group and, I put a lot of thought into it. And then, when I am at the group, I try to, help, I've been the one who buys the literature. So I try to do a bit of service because I think that is also a benchmark of the program, along with self love.

[00:48:26] For me personally, the more I do for people, the more I selfishly get back.but I use this program, It's really helpful that my husband's in AA because we can use the same language and there's a shorthand.

[00:48:39] That's really just,I think enhanced our relationship a lot. But I can also put the, the lens of the program onto my career and onto, parenting, and how I can aim to detach from, the fear and the anger that's coming out of the current political situation, because it seems like either I engage in conversations that just lead to confirmation bias, and then it's we're just talking in circles, we all think the same thing, fine, what is the point?

[00:49:08] or I find out, oh, you don't think the same way as I do, and you're actually trying to convince me of your thing. Interesting. I'm not going to get into that right now, but noted. And , I'm trying not to let it infiltrate every,part of my life because it's, everybody's entitled to their own opinions.

[00:49:29] so yeah, I think I, it's just the gift of being able to use it in these situations that can, threaten my serenity, which I guard ferociously, I would say.

[00:49:42] No, it's not worth it. I'm not going there. My blood pressure can't handle it.

[00:49:47] Spencer: I understand. Looking forward on the podcast, we're still in the middle of working our way through the steps. We're still looking forward to recording step six through 12.

[00:49:58] I've actually got a person coming up for step six later this week. We welcome your thoughts. We welcome you to join our conversation and you can do that by leaving a voice mail, sending us an email with your feedback or your questions. Definitely if you have experience strength and hope to share about self love, we'd love to hear that.

[00:50:20] It'll show up in the listener feedback section in a later episode. Shannon put a note in here. Says, I would love to hear from you, how you have it more figured out than I have. Shannon, how can people send us feedback, ask questions, et cetera?

[00:50:36] Shannon: You can send a voice memo or email to FeedbackAtTheRecovery. show. Or, if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at

[00:50:44] Spencer: Let's say plus one, here, right? Since you're not in the U. S., right? Yeah,

[00:50:52] Shannon: yeah, plus one. Leave us a voicemail at Plus 1, 734 707 8795. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer.

[00:51:06] We'd love to hear from you. Share your experience, strength, and hope, or your questions about today's topic of self love, or any of our upcoming topics, including steps six through 12. If you have a topic you'd like to talk about, let us know.

[00:51:22] If you would like advance notice for some of our topics so that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback at the recovery dot show.

[00:51:34] Put email in the subject line to make it easier to spot. Now, Spencer, where can our listeners find out more about The Recovery Show?

[00:51:42] Spencer: Well, that is our website, the recovery dot show, there are other aliases, but that will get you there. Our website has all the information about the show, including notes for each episode, links to the books that we read from or talked about, videos for the music that Shannon chose, in this case.

[00:52:02] You can also find links to some other recovery podcasts and websites that we like, and there are lots of them out there, this is not an exhaustive list, because I can't keep up with it, but these are just a few recovery podcasts that I listen to on a regular basis, for example.

[00:52:16] A short break before we dive into your feedback, the mail bag, as I put it here, and what is our second musical selection?

Song 2

[00:52:25] Shannon: The second song I chose is Read All About It by Emily Sandé. this song came out, oh, I don't know what year it was. It must have been, like, 2013. or 2012. and it was huge in the UK. and I was going through really, difficult infertility and pregnancy loss, years of miscarriages and desperately wanting a baby.

[00:52:50] For anyone who's gone through that, I think it's getting better depending on where you are and depending on who you are. But, at that time, and for me, it was a very silent time, I felt very alone. I felt ashamed. I felt like I was failing. and the thing I wanted more than anything, I just, I kept losing and it was also, it was a real loss.

[00:53:10] it was loss of hope. and it was just a very difficult time. And this song came out and I just remember sitting on a bus, coming home from somewhere and listening to the lyrics. So some of them are you've got the words to change nation, but you're biting your tongue. You've spent a lifetime stuck in silence afraid you'll say something wrong. If no one ever hears it. How are we going to learn your song? So come on. Come on. You've got a heart as loud as lions, so why let your voice be tamed?and then the, chorus kicks in with, I want to sing, I want to shout, I want to scream till the words dry out, so put it all in the papers, I'm not afraid, they can read all about it.

[00:53:52] And I just felt like , I just wanted it all to be out there, I didn't know how to say it, and I just wanted to scream about it, what was going on, and I couldn't say anything. And I think, That I wasn't allowing myself that self love at that time to share that pain.

[00:54:10] I felt like that was something that nobody wanted to see.

[00:54:13] Spencer: .

Listener Feedback

[00:54:22] Spencer: what have I heard from you this week? Anne H. left us a voicemail.

[00:54:28] Anne H: Wishing all involved in creating the recovery show a happy Thanksgiving. Your past episodes on Gratitude are ones I treasure. They are such important reminders to bring out my reflective and thoughtful self. It's amazing to me how much this exercise helps. In gratitude for Spencer and all of his guests, Anne H.

[00:54:55] Spencer: Thank you, Anne. This year, as you probably noticed, I did not make a gratitude episode, but I am grateful for all of you who continue to listen, all of you who continue to inspire me to create new episodes, and all of you who have contributed as guest hosts or by sharing on one of the topics.

[00:55:14] Thank you all. Kathie. Kathie in LV, she signs herself, left a review on Apple Podcasts. Says, Spencer is the best. I stumbled on this when I was a newcomer in Al Anon. I listen all the time now, three and a half years later. I have learned so much and honestly feel this podcast helped me to keep coming back.

[00:55:33] Thank you for all you do, Spencer. Thanks, Kathy.

[00:55:38] Jessica writes, hi, I've been a long time follower slash fan of your show. Thank you for your service. I feel like it helped save my life.

[00:55:46] I have a friend whose adult daughter is suffering with anorexia and alcoholism and she's so scared she is going to die.

[00:55:53] I've recommended your show to her, but do you have any shows specifically on anorexia? I did a search, but nothing came up. If not, do you have any other episodes that might be helpful?

[00:56:04] Thank you again. You will never know what an impact you have made in the lives of so many. I replied back to Jessica. I said, I don't recall any episodes that touched on anorexia specifically, which is not to say there, there wasn't something, you can find a list of the episodes featuring parents of alcoholics and addicts by using the parent tag to search.

[00:56:29] I sent her a link, And I'll put a link in the show notes, but if you just want to try it, go to the website, therecovery. show, tap or click on search in the menu. If you're on a phone or a tablet, that's going to be the hamburger menu up at the top, and if you're on a computer, it's going to just be in the menu across the top of the page, and then tap or click on the word parent in the popular tags list on the search page.

[00:56:56] And that's it for this week.

[00:56:59] Shannon, I want to thank you so much for joining me today, for this conversation about how we love ourselves or don't love ourselves and maybe learning to love ourselves more. Thank you.

[00:57:12] Shannon: Thank you. It's been wonderful.

[00:57:15] Spencer: It is.

Song 3

[00:57:17] Spencer: And then, song number three. Right into song number three.

[00:57:20] Shannon: So the last song is, a song by Natalie Merchant called Life is Sweet. And it's, it's the oldest of these songs.this was actually playing when, I had my son cause I got to, supply the playlist can do that these days in the hospital. and this just always. gets me because it's just all about perspective. And I think that is a lot of what, turning around this voice is about.

[00:57:49] It's about how life is a lot of things, but who are you going to listen to? and so some of the lyrics are,they told you life is hard. It's misery from the start. It's dull, it's slow and painful, but I tell you life is sweet In spite of the misery, there's so much more.

[00:58:07] Be grateful. So who will you believe? Who will you listen to? Who will it be? Because it's high time that you decide, and it's time you make up your own mind.

[00:58:17] And it's just the most beautiful song, that I I think, sing to myself sometimes.

[00:58:23]

Closing

[00:58:23] Spencer: Thank you for listening. Please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you are facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding, love, and peace grow in you one day at a time.

[00:58:47] ​