Intro

[00:00:01] Spencer: Step five asks us to share the exact nature of our wrongs with God, ourselves, and another person. How does this support our recovery?

[00:00:08] Welcome to episode 421 of The Recovery Show. This episode is brought to you by Susan, Linda, Steve, Jennifer, Alba, Rene, and Kristina. They used the donation button on our website.

[00:00:21] Thank you, Susan, Linda, Steve, Jennifer, Alba, Rene, and Kristina for your generous contributions. This episode is for you. We are friends and family members of alcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness. We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopeless problem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can.

[00:00:42] So much depends on our own attitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

[00:00:48] Heather C: Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show, we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program. During this show, we will share our own experiences. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. We hope that you will find something in our sharing that speaks to your life.

[00:01:08] Spencer: My name is Spencer. I am your host today, and joining me today is Heather. Welcome back to The Recovery Show, Heather.

[00:01:15] Heather C: Thanks, Spencer. I love it here.

Our Step 5 discussion

[00:01:17] Spencer: We're talking about step five, which says, we admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. We're going to be reading from the discussion of Step 5 in the book How Al Anon Works. That's in Chapter 8, which is titled 12 Steps.

[00:01:38] First paragraph.

[00:01:39] Step 4 helped us to learn about ourselves, our strengths, and our shortcomings. In taking Step 5, we acknowledge what our inventory has helped us to discover, revealing those insights not only to ourselves and our higher power, but to another person as well.

[00:01:54] What does this paragraph tell you?

[00:01:58] Heather C: when I thought about it, I had to reflect back because I don't exactly remember working my first step five. Part of that is, maybe, all my senses were heightened at the time and there was so much going on and it was just a blur. But also the way that my sponsor does step four and five, we do it together. And so I might not have a clear recollection specifically of step five. Having said that, step five has become mission critical for me because it involves the active piece of speaking my stuff out loud. So I carry step five with me, whether that's in outreach or whether that's in talking with my sponsor or in a meeting. Step five is, for me, it is about the practice of sharing it out loud to, you know, release it for myself.

[00:02:52] But also to remove the sting that comes when I know I'm holding something inside because I'm ashamed, or afraid to let someone else know about it.

[00:03:03] Spencer: When I look at this, it's okay, this is what I'm going to do.from this paragraph, I don't really understand why. but I do echo your experience of the necessity and the power of, doing that work of really saying it out loud. So why don't we move on and read the next paragraph?

[00:03:26] Could you do that?

[00:03:27] Heather C: Paragraph two, the thought of admitting our darkest secrets to someone else can be frightening at first. We fear that our wrongs are worse than anyone else's and that we would be humiliated if we ever admitted them to another human being. Perhaps the alcoholic in our lives has led us to believe that we are horrible people. Perhaps we created this damaging illusion ourselves. But if we can summon the courage to challenge these fears and can go ahead and take step five in spite of them, we take a huge stride toward personal freedom.

[00:04:03] Oh, that feels so good.

[00:04:06] Spencer: this, paragraph speaks directly to me.and I think I fall mostly into the category of we created this damaging illusion for ourselves.the alcoholic in my life, did not belittle me.but I did. I'm gonna just, state up front here, we might come back around to it later, that the first time I did step five, there were deliberate things that I omitted because of that fear of, just being seen as a horrible person. As I've said before, I worked the steps in a group and we went through step four together. So a lot of what I was going to admit in step five had already been shared with the people in the group, except for these things that I was still keeping hidden.

[00:04:59] and some things that I didn't really remember that I had done, which is another interesting thing that happens. Then says we summon the courage to challenge these fears and we can go ahead and take step five in spite of them. We take a huge stride toward personal freedom. And so this is setting us up to say, yeah, we really want to do this because It will be a step forward, even if you really don't see it that way right now, it will be.

[00:05:25] We're telling you. It's been our experience. What does this say to

[00:05:29] Heather C: Yeah. this paragraph is really, funny in a way to me because pre coming into the 12 step rooms, I had been to multiple therapy rounds in my life. I was raised in an, a home affected by, dysfunctional behavior. I'll just call it that. I married into a family that, had a lot of alcoholism behaviors. and so for me, I had been in many therapist couch settings and spilling all of my stuff for a long time. so that in and of itself wasn't scary to me. That was old hat. But what, I do know is I saw myself holding back. Here's someone that is not my therapist, not someone that has, education necessarily from, multiple colleges and who can assess me in a clinical way.

[00:06:18] This is like another person, another human being, another just regular person like me. And I know that there's judgment there. So I felt that I definitely felt that I wasn't aware of it, but there were the shiny things that I could tell people and then there were this like really dark low things that I still kept close to the vest.

[00:06:40] and so I know when I did my fourth step inventory, I,I wrote it all down, but I definitely had the shame around me of bringing it out from me out into the ether with another person. I didn't want it to confirm The early youth programming that I had that I was a horrible person, that was in there.

[00:07:02] And I didn't want yet one more person to confirm that. that I definitely know, was part of what I was feeling at the time. And I definitely remember having that instinct that I need to still cover. I had learned survival skills of learning to cover and protect myself. And that, I definitely remember feeling that part.

[00:07:21] but like you said, and like it says in the last sentence, we take a huge stride toward personal freedom. I knew what was happening wasn't working for me. And, I wanted something different. I just knew I had to do whatever it was that this was saying for me to do because I needed something different.

[00:07:41] Spencer: Okay, next paragraph says,

[00:07:43] Not only does Step 5 help us learn that what we have done isn't so terrible or so irredeemable, but also that there are people who will love us unconditionally, even if they know the very worst about us. Most of us are astonished to discover that we are the only ones who judge ourselves and our wrongs harshly. This step can dramatically change the way we look at ourselves and others, and most of us find it well worth the effort.

[00:08:11] How does that line up with your experience?

[00:08:14] Heather C: you, my sponsor that I did step five with was my second sponsor. I had a first sponsor and why that person was no longer my sponsor was because I breezed through steps one, two, and three,check, star student, right? And then put on the brakes rapidly in step four.

[00:08:32] And I realized that I was lying to her and I was lying by omission. And then I realized, Oh, I picked this person to be my sponsor because she felt comfortable and she reminded me of my critical parent. bling, big red, big red flag alerts went off, and I,stopped working with her and started working with another sponsor.

[00:08:53] And through the first steps, that sponsor worked really hard with me to, build rapport. We built a trusting relationship. We, talked a lot about our common things. And so I saw that her bad stuff looked a lot like my bad stuff, and that allowed me the space, to be free to open up with her without the fear of the judgment.

[00:09:20] And I think that was a critical path that our relationship had to travel. In order for me to be able to do step five, because if I'm not trusting someone, if they're receiving me, and there's a hint of judgment in what their words are or their tone or their face, my face doesn't hide anything.

[00:09:40] And so if I see that on their face, that puts all my walls right up. when I got to work on step five with my second sponsor, I. didn't have a feeling that she had an ulterior agenda for me and I didn't have a feeling that she was going to sit in judgment of me. And so I was able to open up for that.

[00:09:59] Then came all of the, I know I'm judging myself harsher than anybody else. And, I see her accepting me unconditionally. And that really modeled for me,how this program works and how the role that having a relationship with my higher power in unconditional love and acceptance, and then the people in 12 step recovery, Modeling that same unconditional love and acceptance that helped me give it to myself.

[00:10:31] It was a process of letting go, when I think about the words in this paragraph, it was really a process of letting go of the fear and diving into that relationship of unconditional acceptance for me.

[00:10:44] Spencer: Yeah, I'm looking at this sentence. It says, We're astonished to discover that we're the only ones who judge ourselves and our wrongs harshly. I'm not sure I still believe that. what I was astonished to discover is that there were people who did not do that.and they were like random people that I had never known before who happened to be in, in program.

[00:11:09] and in particular, the small group that I was working the steps with, as we worked through step four. Nobody was saying, Oh my God, what did you do? You did what? and that was so affirming. That unconditional, at least acceptance and possibly love. you know, early in program, like a little bit, I don't know. Still a little bit of a wall between me and other people.

[00:11:38] I, in fact, I remember in a group conscience meeting of, the meeting that I went to first, probably I'd been in there a couple of months, I don't know. And somebody brought up the closing where it says, you will love us the same way we already love you. and, He expressed discomfort with that word, love, and wished we could take it out of the closing.and I did not disagree with him on the discomfort part. but I'm glad we kept it in.

[00:12:07] Heather C: that's part of our process, letting that come into our consciousness.

[00:12:12] Spencer: But at least the stuff that I was willing to admit, I came to understand that it was not terrible or irredeemable. and that people were not judging myself, at least harshly, for those things.

[00:12:25] Heather C: What happened for me was I realized that we all have stuff.it's not for me to judge, to look at your stuff and to judge your stuff. I have my own stuff. And that actually was what started loosening the hold that I had on the people in my resentments list. They got stuff.

[00:12:47] You got stuff. I got stuff. We all got stuff, And so when I was able to, buy into that and detach from the need to judge other people because I too don't want judgment of my own stuff. That helps me dramatically,

[00:13:07] Spencer: No, you're right, I hadn't really thought about it that way, but when I would hear somebody else talking about some wrong, some fault, and I would feel empathy with them, perhaps identification with them, that then helps me to also understand that maybe that's the way other people are receiving the things that I talk about.

[00:13:29] Yeah. You want to read paragraph four?

[00:13:32] Heather C: First, we admit what we have learned to the God of our understanding. The purpose of this admission is to come clean before God, to allow ourselves to be exactly who we are within this vitally important spiritual relationship.

[00:13:48] Spencer: You know, my question was always like, and, my relationship with God is kind of off and on. Sometimes I'm happy with that word. Sometimes I'm higher power. Sometimes it's like some indefinable spirit of the universe, but, I'm like, so if God is like all powerful and all knowing, God already knows this stuff, so why do I have to do anything?And how? And how? and what I have come to understand for myself, that the way in which I can do that, is to write it, because I don't know if you've had this experience, but I have had this experience many times of I'm starting to write something. And then what comes out of my pen is not what I was thinking I was going to write.

[00:14:34] Heather C: Yeah.

[00:14:35] Spencer: The power of that for me is, okay, here's where I'm actually like telling, revealing whatever to my higher power, some truth. If I just kept it in my head, I would never, have found, or maybe, I didn't at that point anyway. but then if I've done that, what does it mean to, to admit to myself, and that's the next paragraph, but I'll let you respond to this

[00:14:58] Heather C: Yeah. This one, this paragraph actually, evolved in my consciousness. I would say that it wasn't like, Oh, step five, I'm jumping right in and I get it. this one has come to me through working the program for a little bit longer. And along the way, I remember, an experience that I had where I called a long timer.

[00:15:18] Her name is Kay. And,she's been around quite a long time. I called to ask her a question about a sponsee that I had. and. Along that, seven minute conversation that turned into my outreach call with her, she said, my God knows me exactly who I am. The good, the bad and the ugly and loves me anyway.

[00:15:41] And who am I toargue with that, basically is what she said. And what that has come to mean for me is that yes, I already believed that the, God, all power, whatever you want to call that knows the stuff. That's not what is in question. But in this process of working the 12 steps and building a relationship with my higher power that I choose to call Gus, Great Universal Spirit.

[00:16:08] Thanks to Annie Lamott, one of our. One of the 12 step gurus around. but I really adopted that because I believe that it is a universal spirit for me. if I choose to invest in that relationship, then showing up for Gus, is part of that practice. And when I willingly step in to the process of coming clean, that's my part.

[00:16:35] that's what my exercise in the relationship is. And when I do that, I come clean, I willingly do the work, I give it over to God, and then I can go into step six and seven, which we're not talking about today, but then I can go into six and seven and let God do God's part. So for me, this is about willingness to participate in my relationship with the great universal spirit and the faith that I can know that my perspective has been dramatically shifted along the way by doing this process.

[00:17:12] And that's what spirituality is for me. it's being willing and stepping into the work and knowing that the gifts that I will receive out of the work are far grander than, anything that I could dream of.

[00:17:26] Spencer: I like that. And I like that way of thinking about it, that it is about willingness. What came to me, as you were finishing up is also, This is a step of breaking denial. And then, next paragraph,

[00:17:43] Then we admit to ourselves what our inventory has revealed. In other words, we take responsibility for ourselves. We avoid the temptation to justify our behaviors and attitudes, blame others, or excuse our past wrongs. We also avoid giving in to the urge to dismiss our talents and invalidate our character assets.

[00:18:05] Okay, so that paragraph talks about the completeness of the inventory, too.

[00:18:11] Heather C: I'll tell you, this may be the hardest piece of step five for me, because I have spent a lifetime investing in justifying my survival skills, rationalizing my behaviors and My ego tells me I'm right all the time. And so to admit to myself, that is a big step. It's almost easier to admit stuff to God than to me.

[00:18:34] but I know that while that justification kept me alive, it didn't keep me happy, it didn't keep me spiritually fit. And to be willing to admit it. To get really honest with myself about my part.while that is in no way making commentary about my part.it's just saying my part as what it is.

[00:18:58] and it's not commentary about other people's parts. It is a massive shift for me.

[00:19:04] But when I came in, I could only really tell the story of the other people's part. Yeah. I couldn't tell the story of my part. I didn't know it, but I was deeply ingrained with the other people's perspective. That was the family legend. It was told over and over and over again. When I do this part of the practice, this is where I get to really lean into acceptance that has been brewing for myself since step one, when I started, really seeing that shifting into the powerlessness, the thinking, the detachment thinking, Steps two and steps three, that was where I got to believe that it wasn't about me being the one to control all of these things.

[00:19:47] And I got to think about surrendering and believe that, there was a power greater than me. this is all about releasing the tentacles of me, the importance of me, the self importance. And then in step four, when I really started. Sitting into that discomfort of identifying my part with a lot more honesty, now that I'm in step five, this is about owning that.

[00:20:13] and not saying, oh, it doesn't feel good. I need to jump into solution immediately. This is about saying, no, that's okay. you don't have to justify anything anymore. You don't have to change anything. You don't have to blame other people or excuse anything. This is just time for awareness. and sitting in these feelings so that you can get intimate with them because that getting intimate with my part, that is, that's what gives me the impetus to want to change.

[00:20:48] I think that when I really, truly lean into that uncomfortable feeling, that is what inspires me to keep going. Otherwise, I would stop here and revert. But now I'm inspired to keep going so that I can move through this because I know that going through the pain of this is the only way to get to the other side.

[00:21:12] Spencer: I don't think I felt inspired here, I really don't. Heh. Heh. Heh. To me, it was more like, okay, this is a thing I have to do. One of the pieces of work that I believe, at least for me, and I try to pass this on to my sponsees, is that part of this admitting to myselves, what our inventory has revealed. is trying to go past perhaps individual incidents that I talked about, individual feelings, individual mistakes, and start to try to see patterns, start to try to see underlying character traits, defense mechanisms, whatever they might be, that underlay and lead to some of the more obvious surface level things. If I was angry and yelled at a coworker, I need to ask myself, why was I angry? Because for me, anger is almost always not actually the primary emotion. Perhaps I'm fearing some consequence. Perhaps I'm frustrated. Perhaps I'm Impatient. All of those things can lead to acting out in anger.

[00:22:34] So part of the work here, part of the action here, is saying, okay, what are patterns of behavior here?

[00:22:43] Because when I get to Step six, which we're not talking about today, but when I get there and I can say, hey, I'm ready to let go of my anger, but I want to keep that like ability to get frustrated and impatient.because I didn't see any frustration and impatience in my step four list, right? So this is kind of going, Going a little deeper here and maybe you did that as part of step four.

[00:23:06] Maybe you do it here maybe you do it in step six, but I really believe that's part of the work that has to get done before I can start to change which is what recovery is about.

[00:23:15] Heather C: The funny thing about what you're saying, I relate with it dramatically, but I relate with it in the next paragraph

[00:23:22] Spencer: Here we are. Why don't you read the next paragraph?

[00:23:24] Heather C: Finally, we admit this information to another human being. It's important to choose someone who understands this stuff, someone who is supportive, loving, and compassionate, and who will listen without judging or condemning. Although our most beloved and trusted friend may be the alcoholic in our lives, most of us find it unwise to work this step with him or her. There is too much potential for conflict and emotional complications. Instead, it can be very helpful to share this experience with someone who has already worked step five. Many of us work this step with our sponsor or another trusted Al Anon friend. Others choose a therapist or a member of the clergy with whom they feel comfortable. We share in detail, not only listing our wrongs, but discussing them in depth. And when we are finished, we try to keep an open mind to hear what the other person may choose to offer in response. Many of us find that our higher power can speak to us through others. And this is a prime opportunity for such communication.

[00:24:26] Spencer: why don't you continue the thought you had?

[00:24:28] Heather C: in the paragraph above, we admit to ourselves, like I said, myself couldn't see the patterns when I first came in. Myself could only see my distorted thinking side. And so it was truly the sharing this with a sponsor, a trusted fellow who's walked the 12 step path and who's had spiritual awakenings of their own and who has looked at their own character defects and gotten honest.

[00:24:55] That's what I needed. And still sometimes, today, even though I can do a step four on my own and a step five and six and seven, I can do that work on my own today and have more clarity and more insight, but still sometimes I can't see into my distorted thinking. And like I said, when my sponsor,did step four and five together, which is how I do it with my sponsees too, we look at, instead of the full list at once, we'll do like one session with one resentment or one session with one fear and spend a lot of time, really fleshing that out.

[00:25:30] And what I love about that is, it's not exactly this huge daunting task to do a full list. We can go bit and piece. over a period of time. but the flip side of that is that it is a process that can take just as long as it takes. And sometimes that is exhausting. It feels like it's never going to end.

[00:25:50] Another thing I like about it though, is it really gets to the core of my core defects and I get to watch them. Like you said, live in the patterns. when I walk through this and I'm bouncing ideas off of, this topic with someone else, they can help me get those insights that I might not be able to reach myself.

[00:26:12] And that's what helps me really shift my perspective in program. and in my life. so I think what I like to really do is, again, take some time sitting in the discomfort before I move into that solution. And I think, It's not for my sponsor or someone else to go, these are the solutions.

[00:26:33] Now, this is what you need to do next. It's just about unearthing the insight that comes, and helping me really understand. And I have a funny story about this because, I had a bit of a realization about how I worked the steps. she told me that I was just like, completely too exhaustive around this.

[00:26:53] And I would spend hours like filling in, however many character defects I could find and I wouldn't take it to her until it was ready, so we talked through that a lot. The cool thing about bringing it to someone like my sponsor or a trusted fellow in program that has walked this path is I get to really admire the work that they've put in and I get to learn more about them and where they've gone and see those common, you know, my sponsor and I have a lot of the same character defects. We've worked through a lot of the same relationship issues. And so she's helping me really see what my distorted thinking looks like.

[00:27:35] I know that I can't do this by myself. Sometimes I need that other perspective to help me shift my own perspective.

[00:27:44] Spencer: I'm like, what can I add here? No.so I'm gonna, I'm gonna put it out here. The first time I worked through the steps with the small group, I just flubbed over step five. I don't know what the exact word I want to use there is, but, because,I didn't exactly bypass it, but I was like, I already told these people everything, so I don't have to do it again, you know?

[00:28:09] So that was still my fear, speaking, my fear of being rejected. I had to come back some years later and do it more correctly if that air quotes there. actually like making a list and sitting down with a person,and telling them what was, all those things on the list.

[00:28:28] Heather C: You know, at that point, hey, it didn't hurt.Like it removed the sting for you.

[00:28:37] Spencer: Yeah, something. because I, at that point I had enough trust, I think. When we got to step five, not quite a year into our Weekly meetings, with, working the steps and I had a lot of trust in the group at that point, but apparently not enough to really be honest with somebody about what was in my list.

[00:28:59] Heather C: the funny thing about that is that, I think it's true about building the trust, but I'll tell you what, I remember specifically, when my sponsor told me I was needy, Oh, I did not like that. when my character defect of being domineering came up, Ooh, that didn't feel good.

[00:29:16] it's I do have trust, but. Oh, the realization of what's really happening still sometimes doesn't feel good. I do trust her implicitly, so I was able to hear it cringe quite a moment and go, Oh, okay, I'm going to need to think about that one. but I do trust her.

[00:29:36] Spencer: I think what also I didn't get in that first time through, because. In the group, part of our group contract, if you will, was no real crosstalk. Sometimes we would have, after we'd each shared an answer to, we were working with the Paths to Recovery book, so we'd share our answer to a question and then we might have some conversation.

[00:30:00] But I had not given anybody in that group and nobody else had given anybody in that group the authority to say, what I see there is, so we didn't get that feedback that would happen, sharing it one on one with a sponsor or something.

[00:30:16] Heather C: when you talk about that, I think it's really important. This is an intimate step and I don't know if anyone can relate with this, but for me, my intimacy, my emotional, psychological intimacy with people had been stunted by my, dysfunctional relationships. And so to come in and be expected to do a step like this with someone, ooh, that's going to be pretty tough.

[00:30:44] So when we can acknowledge there's an inherent intimacy in this step, and it's what we get out of it. is directly proportionate to what we put in. You know what I mean? so I can imagine sitting with a group like that and not having that intimate working back and forth, conversation about these things.

[00:31:06] I feel like that would be unsatisfying. now that I know how to work this step and I work it with sponsees or other people, I feel like that would be unsatisfying.

[00:31:16] Spencer: yeah. On the other hand, I did work it to the best of my ability at the time. And I was able to go on to the subsequent steps and I did achieve some really significant recovery in those first two years.

[00:31:29] Heather C: Something is better than nothing.

[00:31:33] Spencer: yes. And I think that actually, that's an important thing to say here, because.there's a lot in here and, It's entirely possible to not do it completely the first time, but to do it sufficiently.

[00:31:50] Heather C: 100%. that actually just speaks to 12 step in general. I've done the steps multiple times. Every time I get a new challenge in my life, I start at step one because. as I evolve, I get more connected to the insights that are available for me. I was only able to grasp or dig deep enough on certain things the first go around.

[00:32:15] If I didn't continue, I'd miss so much. You know, doing it over and over and over again. That's why if you hear long timers in program, they're like, Oh, I've done the steps multiple times. it's Oh, I'm going to do it once and get cured. That's not exactly true, but I like what you said about,even if you go through it at your pace and your depth the first time you're still going to get something out of it. And that is enough. I think that's an important, that's an important thing to keep in mind. I know I was about to dive into that story about how I get too exhaustive. As we go into paragraph seven, I'll pick that story back up.

[00:32:55] Spencer: Okay, here we are at paragraph 7.

[00:32:57] We often pay particular attention to our limitations when we take step 5, because these are the things that hold us back and interfere with our ability to live happier, healthier lives. We try to identify the exact nature of our wrongs. That's in quotes. The motives are patterns behind these shortcomings, recognizing that many of our past errors were merely symptoms of an underlying problem or weakness of character. For example, our inventory might have unearthed occasions when we stole cookies from our local market. Upon closer examination, we may realize that the underlying problem was the fear that we wouldn't have enough to eat. Fear is often thought to be a lack of faith. We are afraid because we do not trust that our higher power will take care of our needs. Thus, we might determine that a lack of faith, rather than a propensity for theft, is the exact nature of our wrong in this case.

[00:33:50] Heather C: Yeah. So I had this major epiphany about how to work the steps about three years ago or so, I went to a fourth step retreat. And when I came back, I did this whole debrief on the one resentment that I did during the weekend with my sponsor. And she looked at me and she was like, Oh my God, is this how you work this step with your sponsees?

[00:34:14] That is exhausting. You are browbeating your sponsees. I was like, Oh no. Oh my gosh. Because here I've been always, willing to dig deeper, always willing to dig deeper. Like I said, I would make exhaustive lists of all my defects. And, I know the typical ones are like lack of acceptance, lack of faith.

[00:34:35] basically everyone can. bubble up to that, but I would dig deeper and keep pushing and keep,trying to get to more. And I was pretty solid that if I, just kept digging that we would be able to fix everything. That's basically how I would see it. And so after this routine, I come back and I'm going through the, these pages of what I learned in my defects.

[00:34:59] And we sat through and she was like, look, let's regroup on this all together. She goes, if you look at that list, what is the main core umbrella concept that if that one thing wasn't going on for you, most of those other things on your list would pretty much fall away. And so I would look at it and, I try to steer clear of the lack of acceptance and lack of faith because those are always the answer, but, I'd look at things like controlling, critical, victim, self seeking, .

[00:35:32] Etc. And this particular one after this retreat, it came to lack of self worth. So that's a pretty much core repeating pattern in my life. Lack of self worth. I do identify as an adult child and so that's a pretty big one for me. and if I look at lack of self worth, And if that wasn't there, then all the rest of the bad behaviors, core defects, would basically fall away from me.

[00:36:00] And so that became my underlying problem. And the cool part about doing it this way is I get to the core defect. I feel like this list is more manageable to me than having hundreds of defects on a list, and also I was really able to see that pattern come up over and over again in all of my other resentments and fears.

[00:36:22] And hopefully my sponsies like it. I don't really know, but I appreciate doing it this way because it helps me get clarity instead of just having a big long list of things to work on. It also really helps me. I love that this talks about,that there's an underlying problem. I think it helps me really get clear on the underlying problem and the motives that we have that, that go into dealing with that underlying problem.

[00:36:50] So that's what I do in my life. I constantly am looking at the motives for my behavior. Why am I thinking this way? Why am I being this way, behaving this way? And the patterns behind those shortcomings.

[00:37:02] Spencer: I'm gonna reflect back to my earlier days when I was not able to do that deep diving. Actually, I'm going to pull out this book where I was working the steps and somewhere in here, I started to make a list of character defects. okay. This is my defects list from 2003. I'll show you this. Okay, a long list, right? two columns,of handwriting. I have little dividing lines and I don't know now why. It's every third one there's a dividing line for some reason.Defects, anger at my wife, judgmental, inattention to others, unkind, lack of kindness to self, don't listen well, over commit, etc., procrastination, etc., etc. and that's as far as I got. but that's shorter than the list of the answers to the questions in the book for the defects in step four.but that was as far as I could get, but at least I made the list, and if I had followed through with my sponsor or another experienced Al Anon member and actually shared that list with them.we might've been able to find some underlying problems that,led to those things that I had identified at the surface level. I did what I could do at the time and I had chances later to dig deeper. Let's read paragraph eight.

[00:38:25] Heather C: All right.

[00:38:26] But we also acknowledge our talents, our strengths, our positive actions and attributes. Perhaps it has become clear through our inventory that the driving force in our life today is a tremendous willingness to do whatever it takes to heal. Although we have made a concerted effort to attend Al Anon meetings, reach out to others, read Al Anon literature, and take the 12 steps, we may have overlooked the fact that we are doing something wonderful for ourselves. No longer are we pursuing a path of self destruction. Instead, we are committed to changing our lives. This is something worth celebrating. Something in which we can take pride. This and other positive changes deserve acknowledgement. Describing these changes, traits, and talents to someone else makes it much more difficult to casually dismiss them.

[00:39:13] Spencer: Um, none of the times that I have worked step five, however partially, did I ever include my talents, strengths, positive actions, and attributes, and I like those words, because I always have trouble with a word for the things that aren't defects. sometimes I use assets. For me, the first time through, this was a real benefit of working step four in the group, because the step four questions that we used start with 20 some questions about things that could be considered talent, strengths, positive actions, and attributes. And then you get to the defects, the debits, whatever.

[00:40:00] and so I did have an opportunity to speak those things out loud to other people, even though it has never been part of my step five activity.and I think That is part of why after going through step four and being sort of ready for step five, I felt like completely the opposite of the way I had felt about step four before doing it.

[00:40:28] It was like, this was an amazing thing to do. one of the most amazing things I've done in my life and it was really good. so they're Pulling that into this paragraph here. Describing these changes, traits, and talents to someone else makes it more difficult to casually dismiss them.

[00:40:42] That is probably true. I don't think I recognized that, but it probably is true.

[00:40:47] Heather C: Yeah, this takes me back to thinking about the importance of my sponsor in the process. Because, I remember a long time ago, one of my mentors in business would say, you need to take the wins, celebrate the wins. I was not ever able to do that. Was not ever to really sit. In the victory of any positive thing, it was always about striving for more, striving for better, trying to achieve.

[00:41:17] And that's, a lot of the reasons why I've got a big long list of defects, but,I think about, the story that I was telling, in the last paragraph when we did that work around self worth, when my sponsor was able to look at me and go, If you just stop believing you don't have self worth, this wouldn't all just go away, and yeah, that sounds simple and I'm not capable of doing that every day, but that's the role that the sponsor played for me.

[00:41:44] And the, Coolest part about my relationship with my sponsor in Al Anon is that, when I didn't know how to do this coming in, she modeled for me the foundation of worth, the foundation of inherent worth that we have as being children of God. She does that for me constantly in this work.

[00:42:06] So, you know, I can go into step four work or step five work and be describing this, harrowing resentment or this harrowing fear. And,she can bring it back to model my goodness back to me. And that is a mission critical piece. When I can't do it myself, I have someone who can do that with me and for me.

[00:42:27] And that is the hugest value add of the sponsor because I will be the first one to just browbeat myself with shame or, the bad pieces of my behavior, but my sponsor knows my assets. I just had. A situation come up at work and go figure, if I listed off my, some of my defects, controlling, domineering, et cetera.

[00:42:47] someone at work told me I was overbearing. And, that pre program may have sent me into a,downward spiral for months. Today, I spent a good, Two days thinking back about it. What's going on? Why did this come up? but when I took it to my sponsor, she said, okay, let's talk about it.

[00:43:08] Was that really you being overbearing or was that person uncomfortable with something on the project that needed to happen. And I had to get honest about that. And she came back to me and said, you're very good at what you do. You are very skilled. You are very organized, and she was able to come in with my assets and ground me in remembering who I am, and she also was able to say, you've done so much work on this.

[00:43:37] You have made significant changes in your life and in your thoughts and behaviors. You are not the same person who walked into Al Anon, X years ago, whatever that was, And so she said, you can sit in the knowledge that you are a human. Maybe you can make mistakes some days, but for the most part, you're not the same person that you were.

[00:43:57] You don't have to feel like you're backsliding, And so that, all of that to say that, When I can do that for myself, it's an amazing gift. When I can't, the work of step five takes me back to being able to go to a trusted fellow and they mirror back to me the things that I can't access.

[00:44:17] Spencer: Before we move on to the concluding paragraph, I want to take a minute to talk about some of the things that happens when we do this step more than once. In particular, my experience where I was 10 years into the program, roughly. I had done an exhaustive, exhausting step four using the blueprint. I shared it with a friend in program, because my sponsor at the time was having a lot of stuff going on in his personal life and wasn't able to really be there for me cause he needed to be there for himself. I shared it with a trusted friend. And then there was a thing I left off. there was this thing that I left off that I was really embarrassed about. And it was 30 years old, okay? And it was still taking up space in my head. And I realized I had to bring it out into the open. So we met again, and I said, here's this thing that happened. Here's how I behaved and what I was feeling. It's been, eating me up, not constantly, but for 30 years. Okay.and I'm sure the other people involved are completely over it and I'm not.and then I was over it. it was that simple. What I realized at that time was that actually opening up and admitting my faults freed me of them. It really did.I wasn't really expecting that. maybe I was hoping that would happen, but it really did. I know I didn't do step five perfectly and completely the first time I did it. We talk, and I'm sure you've heard this one before, about peeling the onion.

[00:46:06] first time through I take one layer or two, maybe the outer two layers off the onion. But there's more layers in there, and I'm not ready to see them yet. And I have to come back later. that was really powerful for me. As we got through here, I realized, this section in the book doesn't really talk about doing it more than once, and I guess that maybe makes sense.

[00:46:26] They probably talk about that doing it somewhere else in the book, but right here, they don't. But I wanted to talk about it.

[00:46:32] Heather C: Yeah, I think that's important. I know that, the onion analogy very well. I personally use a video game analogy because for me, it's like leveling up. Every constant thing that I learn in this program, every new trick helps me level up. And I love, the concept of doing step five over again.

[00:46:53] For me, it's I can't think of it as brr brr brr. Or, oh, I'm all the way back to level 2. Oh, I was just on level 15 and now I went all the way back to level 2. It's not dramatic like that, and for me, I really do. People might get, surprised to hear that, but I really do work the steps routinely in my day to day life. Every challenge that comes up, I remember when I was,getting ready for my oldest daughter to go to college and the couple of weeks before she was about to leave, we had a challenge with her financial aid come up all of a sudden, and it was really obsessive thinking time for mommy, and I was working really hard to make a solution happen. Force a solution, in other words.

[00:47:41] And so I had to start at step one. sometimes I can jump right in and start at step four. It just depends on where my obsession is happening at any given moment. But when I think about it as, really just continuing to work my video game, I'm playing my levels every single day. that keeps me spiritually fit.

[00:48:02] I know that I'll be here doing this work. For the rest of my life, because just like eating healthy, just like going to the gym, just like choosing what I pay attention to, this keeps me spiritually fit. So I'm not afraid of repeatedly doing step five.

[00:48:18] And that's why I think when I said in the beginning, I really think about this as Step 5 is every time I get to be open and vulnerable with myself, with God, or with another person. Every time I do outreach. Every time I go to a meeting. every time I pray and have a conversation with my higher power.

[00:48:38] Every time I talk to my family members who may or may not be in program, I get to make decisions about being honest, open, and vulnerable. And so that's step five, carrying that principle in all of my affairs.

[00:48:53] Spencer: Thank you. Okay, concluding paragraph.

[00:48:57] We are building a new life. Some of the building process involves tearing down materials that stand in the way of our plans, but the process also involves taking the best of what we already have and expanding upon it. Our character assets can form the basis of a life centered around self love and self caring if we recognize and admit their importance.

[00:49:17] Heather C: So this is, again, talking about assets, but also the first sentence here, we're building a new life and we're tearing down materials that stand in the way of our plans. So having identified, character defects and character assets.it helps to see, what outdated inventory to go back to the, the store inventory metaphor, what outdated inventory we want to get rid of, whether it involves throwing it away, just downsizing the size of the collection, whatever,and making room for. Inventory that will actually sell in the store metaphor, and recognizing what stuff, what stuff is doing well, and let's at least leave it alone, if not try to improve it. Yeah, I think a lot about the stories that I told myself based on the family legends, so to speak. I was a bad person. I had a bad attitude. I was the black sheep of the family. I could never do anything right. Those were just some of those stories that I brought into 12 step program work with me.

[00:50:23] Today, what I know is I have built a new life and I've been able to tear down those old stories and build new stories. Some of that is through just changing my thinking. Some of that is changing my actual behaviors, which come in other steps, but I think it starts with recognizing those stories that we told ourselves.

[00:50:47] And then seeing, like we just talked about repeatedly doing step five, seeing how the work that we actually do makes change for us. So that old material no longer works, that old survival skill no longer, works for me. and I don't have to tell that story anymore.

[00:51:08] Spencer: Thank you. I don't think I have anything to add there.I think what I do want to say, if you're listening and you're balking at step five, you. You have that

[00:51:18] fear.

[00:51:19] Heather C: We get it?

[00:51:20] Spencer: yeah, we get it, but step into it, step into it.

[00:51:25] After a short break, we'll talk about our lives in recovery and how recovery is working in our daily lives.

Song 1

[00:51:32] Spencer: But first you brought me some songs.

[00:51:34] Heather C: I did. Our first musical selection, which you can listen to on the website at therecovery. show slash 421, is from Zach Williams called Fear is a Liar. And I really love this song because it's releasing the fear that I unearthed in step four and the thoughts of the freedom that I'm going to gain from continuing into step five.

[00:52:01] Spencer: And I'm looking at the lyrics and they're pretty harsh at the beginning.

[00:52:06] When he told you you're not good enough, when he told you you're not right, fear dot dot dot, fear he is a liar.

[00:52:14] Heather C: Yeah, I was hardcore in my self judgment. even though I can say that some of the beliefs about myself came from other people, I perpetuated that. So it's like when I tell myself I'm not good enough, when I tell myself I'm not right, not strong enough, that's my fear.

[00:52:30] And it's lying to me.

[00:52:32]

Our Lives in Recovery

[00:52:32] Spencer: In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery. How have we experienced recovery recently?I'll go ahead and start here. Over the last couple of days, I was at a men's retreat, with men from my congregation.

[00:52:57] The theme of the retreat was making connections. We talked about how our communication can hinder or, enhance connecting with other people, getting to know people more deeply, focusing on the positive, with some, practice exercises. The fun one that I remember Friday evening, at the end of our small group together, we were asked to make a list of questions that we would ask a guest at a dinner party who we didn't know very well to get to know them better. There's the obvious oh, what do you do? Which is not a deep question, does not generally elicit any understanding, but let's say, even if you started with that, then you can come back with a follow up question that, that goes deeper.

[00:53:47] So one of the questions was, what do you do to have fun? Cause that's going to tell you something about them as a person. But even if you said, what do you do? and the person is Oh, I'm a doctor. Oh, what brought you to medicine? Why do you value the work you do? Those questions hopefully will elicit some closer connection.

[00:54:09] Over the course of the weekend, our small group met several times. There were some workshops. I took a nature walk with a guy who is, really into natural area preservation, and he talked about the landscape that we were in, what it might have looked like a couple hundred years ago, how you might or might not try to bring it back to that state, if that's what you want to do.

[00:54:30] We didn't walk very far, but man, it was a whole lot of information. and it was a beautiful day. We're outside in the woods. it could hardly get better. and we had a campfire.

[00:54:41] And then this morning I had been asked to lead the Sunday morning service, because of course our minister is busy leading the service back at the church, and we just do a sort of a more casual thing. I picked some readings. I picked a couple of songs. I had a reflection on the experience of the weekend, in which I shared a personal story because that's what I've learned to do in recovery. about a situation in which a conversation went right and then went horribly wrong, with a family member, of course, because those are the ones that are most likely to go horribly wrong.

[00:55:18] I also asked three other men to, to do a little bit of sharing,of their own. I sought out three men that I see as elders in years, experience, or wisdom, or some combination.one of them was actually a couple years younger than me, but I've learned a lot from him over the years, knowing him.

[00:55:41] One guy, I said, Hey, you want to talk? He says, he says, you're going to have to tell me how long I've got, because I'll talk forever. He knows himself. And I said, I think you got five minutes. We were sleeping in the same bunk room. And this morning I noticed he got up pretty early. We had a conversation the night before about, he had several different things he could talk about.

[00:56:01] And I said, I think this topic might speak to the people who are here better than maybe this other topic. He said, okay, and so this morning at breakfast, I said, Hey, I saw you got up early this morning, he said, yeah, I had to trim my two hours down to five minutes he also gave me a phrase that I love He said he's in his 80th year of life, which means he's 79, but he says when you say 80th year It just sounds better And I'm like, yeah, okay. That means I'm in my 70th year of life. How cool. He has had so many experiences throughout his life and what he identified, and I think he took more than five minutes, but he identified experiences that felt negative at the time they happened, but turned out to be positive. Like his house blew up. He almost died. He lost his hearing in one ear. He spent a couple of years winding up his business affairs. And then he spent the next, almost decade just going around the world doing stuff. He says, I did all the things that would be on my bucket list now. he was like, I was spared. that was the most dramatic, I think. I thought it was something that it was valuable for me to hear and hopefully for other people. and here's the thing, I would not have said yes to that request without Time spent in the rooms, time spent as a sponsor, time spent working my own recovery.

[00:57:34] I would not have felt worthy or capable. I had confidence that I could do it and I've done that sort of thing maybe once or twice before.I also had that experience. But at the same time, I was like, I don't know what I'm going to say. I don't know what I'm going to You know, that, that little fear, that little thing, like you're not worthy is still there, but I can push it aside and say, no, I will do this thing.

[00:57:59] it will be good enough. and that's another thing that, that I've really learned in the rooms of recovery is that good enough is enough.and apparently it was good enough because a lot of people thanked me for it. so That's my life in recovery. Very recently, because that was this morning.

[00:58:22] Heather C: love that. Good enough. That has become one of my mantras. Thank you for sharing that. As far as what I'm going through in recovery right now, we just had the celebration of life for my brother in law who died at 56 from a couple years of pretty aggressive cancer. I will say that his many, likely 40 to 50 years of drinking probably did not help that. he did not consider himself an alcoholic to my knowledge, but what I can say is that his isms bothered me.

[00:58:59] We had a pretty tenuous relationship, he and I. And so at the last months of his life before he passed, our whole family was rallying in service. There was a lot of that. Many hours spent rallying in service. And at the last day, he had made the decision tochoose his time of passing, I'll say.

[00:59:25] the whole family was there, his immediate family, his sons and wife, my mother in law, my family, my, my children and my spouse were there. and we were all there and it was a family event. And that is beautiful. and while we were sitting there, it was multiple hours. It was a lot, it was a long day.

[00:59:45] I won't, go into the gory details of it, but it was a long day. And while we were sitting there in grief, the room was in grief at this passing moment, rightly so.I started texting my sponsor, I'm noticing that it's so weird that we're all sitting here in this room and nobody's talking.

[01:00:05] she at one point said, why are you texting me? Do you want something to change? And I said, No, I'm actually completely at peace here. And she said, Oh, it sounds like you feel disconnected from the people in the room. And that was such an interesting perspective because that's exactly what it was. Here we are, we're sitting in this room.

[01:00:33] there's, a considerable amount of dysfunction in family as it goes in our,welcome to 12 step. and that was exactly what it was. Here we are, we're all separately and isolatedly dealing with our grief. Even though we're in the same room together. And so what happened for me was I said, okay, great.

[01:00:56] I stopped texting my sponsor and I just started journaling on my phone and I came into some really powerful spiritual awakenings that, in my 22 years of marriage and the relationship that I've had with this person, there have been some really hard moments.

[01:01:12] And some really painful interactions between this man and me. And right now in this moment of his passing, none of that really matters. I got to sit there and go, I no longer need him to validate me. I no longer want his appreciation. I no longer, fill in the blank of all the things I had done for 20 years.

[01:01:37] I no longer need him to apologize to me, fill in the blank of all of my resentment lists on this one person. And it was such a powerful moment of letting go of. The stuff that I had been holding on to and recognizing, I perpetuated that grudge. Not to say he didn't have a part, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:02:00] We get that. But I perpetuated the walls that I put up between him and me. I perpetuated that I'm not safe with this person.I perpetuated the story that I would tell myself that he loves everyone, but he doesn't love me, all the things. And I was able to see that with immense clarity.

[01:02:22] And, fast forward, it was just, last week that we had his service, his celebration of life. And he was like the guy at the bar that bought everyone the drinks. He was the mayor of the town, kind of friendly guy. There were like 400 people at the service. At first, when I'm hearing these, he was so amazing.

[01:02:43] Everybody loved him. He helped me kind of stories. I was like, Yeah, but don't you remember he was, expletive, and again, I came into that understanding that he was that to me sometimes and to many others had nothing to do with me, really. He had an edge about him, but he was so much more than that .

[01:03:05] And so what I got to really see is. I am the same way. I have an edge. Sometimes I have a very kind heart sometimes. I'm not black and white thinking all or nothing, one thing or another thing, and nobody is. So how much do I want to hold the grudge? And I just was left with all of these thoughts and it was very profound for me.

[01:03:29] I did a lot of surrendering. I did a lot of talking with my higher power and surrendering of the need to hold on to this stuff. And I felt so much freedom. So on the day of the service, yes, it was sad. Yes. I had, emotions. Yes. I had some tears come up at certain moments, but for the most part, I was really at peace because I could recognize that I've made progress, that he now is no longer suffering because the last couple of years of his life was traumatically painful for him and for others.

[01:04:01] So the suffering has somehow ended. It was just this really beautiful moment for me. I can't speak to everybody else in the family. They're, dealing with their own things,and we, alcoholism is a family disease and I watch how his sons are affected, but that's not for me.

[01:04:16] that's not where I need to be in the equation. and so for me, I was able to show up that day, be of service to my family, take care of his wife for fun and for free, no strings attached. Take care of my mother in law for fun and for free, without needing anything from her.

[01:04:36] and just be in the presence of people in their grieving and a lot of love and funny stories and, my children and their funny stories. And it was just really powerful for me. that's where recovery has been working for me.

[01:04:53] Spencer: Wonderful, wonderful.

[01:04:55] So what's happening next on the podcast? we're gonna be talking about more steps. We got what, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 still to go. Actually, if you're interested in maybe a different perspective on Step 5, that would also be a lot of fun to do. So we welcome your thoughts. You can join our conversation here.

[01:05:16] Leave us a voicemail or send us an email with your feedback or your questions. And Heather, how can people do that?

[01:05:22] Heather C: All right folks, you can send a voice memo or email to feedback at therecovery. show or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 734 707 8795. You can also use the voicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer. We would definitely love to hear from you, so share your experience, strength, and hope or your question about today's topic of Step 5 or any of our upcoming topics, including more steps.

[01:05:58] And if you have a topic you'd like to talk to us about, let us know.

[01:06:02] If you would like advance notice for some of our topics so that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback at the recovery dot show. Put quote email, the word email, in the subject line to make it easier to spot.

[01:06:19] Spencer: Our website is therecovery. show. We have all the information about the show, which is mostly the notes for each episode, which include, will include links to the books that we read from. We talked about a couple other books in this episode. So I have links to those as well, where you can buy them from the Al Anon bookstore in this case.

[01:06:38] And also videos for the music that Heather chose. And thank you for that again, Heather.

Song 2

[01:06:44] Spencer: And we got another song.

[01:06:46] Heather C: will take a short break before diving into the mailbag. Our second musical selection, which is available on the website, is Maybe It's Time by Bradley Cooper. And I remember the first time I heard the song, it just really hit me. Maybe it's his voice, I don't know. But the words,

[01:07:05] maybe it's time to let the old ways die. And I'm glad I can't go back to where I came from. I'm glad those days are gone for good.

[01:07:14] I really heard this as my higher powers speaking to me about letting go of my old survival skills because I can have faith in something more.

[01:07:23]

Listener Feedback

[01:07:30] Spencer: Now let's hear from you.

[01:07:32] Kris writes about the Blueprint for Progress book. I hated, hated that book. Long, drawn out, and sometimes redundant. My sponsor chose it because they felt it was more in depth. I just wanted to move on. But it was an adventure. I actually came to understand the nature of trust, what it is to me, how to trust, and finally coming to terms with faith as well.

[01:07:56] My first fourth step was with the AA checklist chart. It's good too. I almost wanted to quit the steps just because the blueprint was so long. It's all good. No wasted time ever. Kris. Thanks for that opinion, Kris. I don't disagree that it's long and drawn out and sometimes redundant. It is very thorough.

[01:08:18] Got a voicemail from Sophia.

[01:08:21] Sophia: Hi, Spencer. My name is Sophia and I found recovery about three months ago. I joined Al Anon. similar to your story, I jumped in quickly and was really ready and got a sponsor and I'm working steps and it's been really wonderful. I actually ended a relationship with my qualifier, pretty soon after joining.

[01:08:45] I would love to hear an episode related to dating. and going back and listening to all the old episodes and loving all of them, but I have yet to hear one, and I can't find one that's specific to the experience of dating, people who are creating healthy relationships with you or showing up without a background of Al Anon or addiction and offering secure, safe relationship and not feeling really overwhelming as someone who's coming from, A pretty chaotic and, challenging relationship that lacked a lot of safety and lacked a lot of those elements of a healthy relationship.

[01:09:25] I would love to hear if other people have those experiences of, being so used to chaos and almost excited by the problem solving and the ups and downs of addiction. and that suddenly a relationship that feels calm. can sometimes feel boring and how to cope with that. Thank you so much for everything you do.

[01:09:50] I've been listening to the podcast non stop in between my meetings and basically always have you in my ears and it means a lot. Thank you.

[01:09:59] Spencer: Thanks, Sophia, for that idea. Obviously I am not in a position to be talking about dating, being in a long term committed relationship as I am. So if we're going to do an episode, I need your experience, strength, and hope. If you're listening and have some to share.

[01:10:20] You can sign up to record an episode. You can send me a voice memo. You can send me an email, and maybe we can put together that episode. We got a voicemail from Pat.

[01:10:33] Pat: Hi, Spencer. I want to just say up front, this is a comment that's related to the election, but I'm going to be very careful not to voice any opinions about the outcome or anything like that, but I do want to relate how much Al Anon has helped me, deal with conflict in my family related to it.

[01:10:55] The morning after, the returns, there was, commentary back and forth among the family text, that had people who, probably fall on kind of both sides of the basic dividing line in this country.

[01:11:10] And one person said something that really concerned me and bothered me. And the first tool that really helped was taking that Al Anon pause. that was great. I paused for 10 days before I responded to it. And I still haven't decided fully how I'm responding to it. But using the principles. First of all, I just was able to really keep my serenity.

[01:11:36] I was able to put it in perspective and recognize that this was one comment from a person. It's not their wholeness or who they are completely. And I was able to give myself the time to really think about did I need to respond to it, did I want to respond to the comment, why did I want to respond to the comment, how was I going to respond to the comment, and ultimately I sat down yesterday and wrote a handwritten letter to that person.

[01:12:06] I still don't know if I'm going to send it. But when I read that letter that I wrote, it was respectful, it was thoughtful. And the question then is it necessary? And that's where I have to say, for me, to honor myself and my thoughts on this particular topic, it was, it is important to voice it, and at the same time, voice letting go of the outcome in the letter.

[01:12:36] however it is taken, it is simply that I want to give this person a different way of looking at one tiny little aspect of what was commented on in the family text stream.I am so grateful for Al Anon. I am so grateful for the peace it brings to my life and the ability to handle what can be very hot button topics and situations.

[01:13:00] Spencer: Thank you, Pat, for that thoughtful share, and, reminding us of the Al Anon pause, which is Al Anon. An amazing tool as you used it.

[01:13:10] And also reminding me of the acronym THINK about asking, is it thoughtful? Honest? I think the I sometimes stands for intelligent, necessary, and kind. Seeing that your letter that you wrote was thoughtful and honest. And I think you said respectful. So that's kind. Is it necessary? And you know, it's great to remember to ask that question sometimes.

[01:13:36] So thanks for that.

[01:13:38] Heather, I really want to thank you for joining me today for our conversation about step five.

[01:13:44] I think you. provided a lot more depth than I would have gotten to, so

[01:13:49] Heather C: thank you. I'm so happy to be able to be of service. I love your podcast and I'm just very grateful to be a listener and a participant. Thank you.

Song 3

[01:13:58] Heather C: our last song selection is called Strength, Courage, and Wisdom by India Arie. Which you can listen to at the recovery. show slash 421. And if this person isn't reflecting 12 step recovery, I don't know what is, but, for me, this is really my call to action when I can sit in the acceptance that strength, courage, and wisdom have been inside me all along.

[01:14:24] And now I can really let go of my fears and have faith in that process.

[01:14:28] Spencer: Thank you for listening, and please keep coming back. Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If we did not talk about a problem you are facing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode. May understanding, love, and peace grow in you one day at a time.

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